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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
And that aside, this strat is somewhat viable if terran sits back in his base until the CHARGED voidrays appear at his front, but then it's your own fault. It's also nice that terran needs to scout toss for a change. Instead of just walling in and not caring what the enemy is doing... Or we could also start calling cloaked banshees a design flaw since terran will kill toss with it unless toss know whats coming... | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
Here is the rep for your pleasure only. www.replayladder.com/site/replay/1469 We are both 1400~ Diamond range I think late game voidrays massed is very strong but I don't find this build "imbalanced" it really depends on what terran does. Obviously if you do a fast expand or something risky then you will get rolled by VR Stalker. Other then that it seems fine. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 11 2010 05:59 GoldenH wrote: Thing is you don't have to blind counter it. You can actually start building units after the first VR is out and still have enough to win. Its not like you're screwed if you miss the stargate going down, these aren't warp dts with a pylon in your base. If he is going stargate, gate, gate, he will have a ridiculously small army maybe 6-7 units, by the time you have teched up to battlecruisers or whatever it is you wanted. 3 gate stargate is all in, even probe production would have to stop, and in order to get that many stalkers an early sentry and void rays, he'd have to double gas before his second pylon. If you're trying to be cute when someone makes that much units, you deserve to die. what fantasy world do you live in? If you do not accumulate units pre-emptively versus a strat like this, you will die to the voidrays because if you don't have the minimum number of vikings/marines required to take down 3 ALREADY CHARGED voids + the stalkers/zealot + continued warp ins...you die. YES, if you went 3 rax you can stop it! But for fucks sake, no one wants to 3rax all-in every damn game to blind counter a void ray strat that needs extreme luck to be scouted anyways. And for people spouting out idiocy about "stopping void rays from charging," they can charge up on their own pylons/gateways...*facepalms* and if you walled, your wall is gonna most likely die UNLESS you already had been building vikings, or had pre-emptive bunkers up. And for gods sake, it's not Terran QQ, it's more or less discussion about lack of scouting. People recommending to scan...just stop. That's like looking for a needline in a haystack. read through a lot of the thread...50% of the people dunno wtf they are talking about...other 40% keep going off-topic talking about 50 other builds instead of the one mentioned in OP. 10%...read those...if you have the time to wade through the non sense. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point, EVEN IF THE VOID RAY IS IN YOUR BASE, you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 12 2010 02:44 GoldenH wrote: I live in the fantasy world where I am a 1400 diamond protoss player who regularly employs void rays as harassment against terran and know what army i can attack and win and what will soundly defeat me. If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out. .....you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
I guess you are probably in the category that think it's a good idea to warp in stalkers two at a time right underneath the charged void ray? | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
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PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
On October 12 2010 02:54 Jeffbelittle wrote: Well, I've read just enough "you can't stop the vrays from being charged" posts to think the people who are losing to this strat have a few more issues playing the game than this one obscure strategy. It's a PROXY pylon. PROXY. Meaning close to the base getting attacked. It should be well within your vision to drop it. what? you attack the pylon, while they have stalkers owning all your units, and they throw down another pylon whenever they feel like it? What about maps with rocks? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 12 2010 02:50 GoldenH wrote: Yeah, I do, sorry if you want to say it doesn't work, but I've seen it happen. It's too bad that people are actually using strategies that work against this on the ladder, and that none of them know about this thread to share their skills. I guess you are probably in the category that think it's a good idea to warp in stalkers two at a time right underneath the charged void ray? On October 12 2010 02:46 avilo wrote: .....you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Once again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Versus this x3warpx1stargate strat, waiting for three voids, if you didn't already go 3 rax, if you didn't already start building vikings, and if you didn't already have a bunker YOU DIE. There is no "throw down 2-3 rax suddenly." There's no time to do that, there'll already be the 3 voids + gateway units at your wall. You will die to this build if you did not already have a ton of marines and stim or marines and bunker + viking. And in case you didn't realize, the good players in this thread have already said what works versus this strategy. What the hell are you talking about? | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On October 12 2010 02:41 avilo wrote: what fantasy world do you live in? If you do not accumulate units pre-emptively versus a strat like this, you will die to the voidrays because if you don't have the minimum number of vikings/marines required to take down 3 ALREADY CHARGED voids + the stalkers/zealot + continued warp ins...you die. YES, if you went 3 rax you can stop it! But for fucks sake, no one wants to 3rax all-in every damn game to blind counter a void ray strat that needs extreme luck to be scouted anyways. And for people spouting out idiocy about "stopping void rays from charging," they can charge up on their own pylons/gateways...*facepalms* and if you walled, your wall is gonna most likely die UNLESS you already had been building vikings, or had pre-emptive bunkers up. And for gods sake, it's not Terran QQ, it's more or less discussion about lack of scouting. People recommending to scan...just stop. That's like looking for a needline in a haystack. read through a lot of the thread...50% of the people dunno wtf they are talking about...other 40% keep going off-topic talking about 50 other builds instead of the one mentioned in OP. 10%...read those...if you have the time to wade through the non sense. No one WANTS to 3 gate robo every game either - but hey what exactly is it the the threat of an equally "unscoutable" build has forced protoss players to do for a good period of time? Oh yeah right - exactly what terrans have to do now to stop the VR build. The people talking about stopping the VRs from charging talked about scouting the proxy and kill it before the VRs could charge - or better yet, engage just as the VR are about to charge - the pylon has to be pretty damn close to your base for them to not lose the charge on the flight. The people talking about scanning aren't talking about scanning the ACTUAL tech but scanning his buildings/unit composition which will make you able to make an educated guess of what build the toss is going. It is obviously moronic to try and search for a proxy with scan and no one suggested. Reading through this thread is like 100% P players asking why this is flawed and the banshee build isn't - they both force certain BOs until someone figures out a better BO. Then it is a couple of top end players who conclude from 2 replays, in which one of said top end players played like a bronze-leaguer, that the build is broken and yet when they are asked how exactly this is more broken than the banshee build by the protoss players their answer is because it's VRs, hard to scout and you guys suck. I perfectly understand how annoying it can be to discuss things on an online forum, but seriously - let your arguments speak and let them be better than 2 replays littered with mistakes and a "I'm higher ranked than you and you suck so I'm right" - if better evidence had been provided I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have turned out to the sorry excuse of a thread that this is, but seeing as such wasn't provided, this thread started out as terran QQ and it went downhill from there (due to a joint effort). Oh and on a sidenote (or well, this is probably more than a sidenote): Try a ghost + marine build - that'll keep you safe from more or less ANYTHING that the protoss can throw at you whilst letting you be aggressive throughout most of the early and midgame. | ||
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PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
On October 12 2010 03:08 GoldenH wrote: No, you are not paying attention. I said at 5 minutes you start building. This is to show there is plenty of time to scout, it's not a "oh no i missed his stargate with my first SCV now I die" situation. This push with 3 void ray and gateway units will come around 10-12 minutes. I used to do this push pretty often but it was too risky, so I stopped. I don't think 8 marines is a ton, + whatever else you were going to build anyway which hopefully included something to deal with stalkers. It can come in under 8:30 actually. | ||
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PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
On October 12 2010 01:03 NuKedUFirst wrote: On ladder a friend of mine just did this strategy to me on delta quadrant, attacked with 2 charged VRs and stalkers and I was able to hold it with Brat_OK's Marine Ghost build and ended up winning after the push, voidrays are pretty fragile in my opinion, once emp'd they die hella fast. Here is the rep for your pleasure only. www.replayladder.com/site/replay/1469 We are both 1400~ Diamond range I think late game voidrays massed is very strong but I don't find this build "imbalanced" it really depends on what terran does. Obviously if you do a fast expand or something risky then you will get rolled by VR Stalker. Other then that it seems fine. I think that shows promise, but your buddy didn't do the optimal build. He was slow on his VRs, his push, and one of his 2 VRs wasn't even charged. edit: also, did you know this build was coming ahead of time? Obviously with the late reaper scout it was pretty apparent something was missing in his base, but had you discussed this beforehand? I just ask cause you seem very quick to throw down 3 bunkers after sending in your reaper. | ||
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Firesemi
Australia87 Posts
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
It has been said: Terrans have an easy time scouting. So the first time I scout a protoss is with a worker sent out usually when I finish my 10 depot. The signs I check for are: a) 1 gas or 2 gas b) is a zealot coming? c) 2nd gate before core is done? I would say 80-90% of the time, I see 2 gas, a zealot after core has been started. I keep my SCV inside his base, but as soon as his stalker comes out, my worker is toast. Until then, it's usually not a problem for toss to wait until he commits to anything. The next time I can usually get a good picture of what he is doing, is when I drop him or use a floating factory. The problem - and that relates to the topic - is that the 2 VR + gate attack comes before either events timing wise. So my SCV sees nothing out of the ordinary and I cannot distinguish between 'standard play' (2-4 gates plus robo) and other BOs like the voidray attack discussed here or a DT rush or a 4 warpgate all in. Now it has been said, that terran reigns the map and has the initiative early game and that I should prod his front to check his units. That relates to my next question: When his initial stalker comes out, he gains mapcontrol, because this stalker is faster and beats everything I have in the field up until then (which is the marine and the SCV). As soon as I have the marauder, the stalker can retreat safely back into the base because he is faster or can even do damage, because his shields recover quickly. So in order to prod his ramp, I need a decent amount of units (2 marauder + marines if needed) and I need concussive shell not to get picked on on my way to his base. So whenever I do an early poke with 3-5 units, I see 1 stalker and one zealot (that my SCV told me he already has) and one sentry. They are sitting on top of their ramp. I move in, they FF the ramp to trap 1-2 units that they kill. Often there is a second stalker to shut the poke down completely. What the hell does this tell me? There could be anything off the ramp. If he goes standard play, he can just have his other units further in the back of his base guarding against drops. If he goes VR push or DTs or fast collossi, there will be exactly those units and he won't have much more - but I cannot distinguish. So this gives me no information. So why should I invest in taking map control from protoss that early? What should I do instead? And on a related note: If I take the map control from the toss by opening with many barracks but little tech, what good does it do me? I cannot break his ramp with just barracks units unless is extremely greedy and/or sloppy with his force fields. So what shall I do? Until I have enough forces to break 2 stalker/1zealot/1-x sentries, he has thrown down his immortal gotten is extra cycle of units from completed warpgate tech if he plays standard and can hold me easily. So if I cannot break his ramp, I should use my map control to tech and expand? His observer sees what I am doing and as soon as the expo goes up or I sink resources into fast tech he can mass up units and crush my force. Bio pressure into expand in my experience gets stomped by 3 gate robo push when toss cuts probes. Or if the toss is doing stargate play the voidrays run rampant in your base, while your force is containing him. So I don't see, what good it does to exert early pressure because the toss knows you cannot threaten him before can circumvent his ramp with medivacs or other air units. So in my experience, let the toss keep his mapcontrol and use either tech focussed timing attacks (like iEchoic's or the straight 3/1/2 banshee/marine push) or go fast expand with bunkers. Toss always scream about the dominance of terran T1 early with concussive shells, but I don't see what good that does, if the toss can hold early pressure without giving away his build and usually coming out ahead. The tricky thing about this VR timing attack is, that it kills the tech timing attacks of terran (as terran air is produced slower so the toss attack will come before the terran one). It can be countered, but it pretty much requires me to blindly go for the counter, which in turn sets be back against 'standard' toss builds. Finally I'd like to conclude this wall of text with 3 remarks: 1) I think it's good sense to go 'All-in' if you win 85+% or the time. So if you can decide based on your intel that you have such a good chance to win by going all in, you should do it. 2) If a change to the void ray is needed, I would simply prefer the void ray to charge up 25% quicker, but lose all charge when it kills a target. 3) I posted here, because there were competent players posting (among the Gold league Champs that own voidrays in their 4v4s) and I hope to get help to improve my play. Everything above is the way I experienced it from my play - which is far from perfect. | ||
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frogmelter
United States971 Posts
On October 12 2010 03:04 avilo wrote: Once again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Versus this x3warpx1stargate strat, waiting for three voids, if you didn't already go 3 rax, if you didn't already start building vikings, and if you didn't already have a bunker YOU DIE. There is no "throw down 2-3 rax suddenly." There's no time to do that, there'll already be the 3 voids + gateway units at your wall. You will die to this build if you did not already have a ton of marines and stim or marines and bunker + viking. And in case you didn't realize, the good players in this thread have already said what works versus this strategy. What the hell are you talking about? Give it up... these people are hopeless... Thanks for trying Avilo but without mods this thread is trash. Most of the top players have already left this thread. I've read all of this thread and people are saying the same thing over and over again when they are talking about completely different things and acting like they know what they're talking about and telling top players to l2p. Where are the mods? There would be so many warnings for people talking about what they don't know, if not bans... | ||
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ahcho00
United States220 Posts
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TERATON
Latvia29 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On October 12 2010 03:08 GoldenH wrote: No, you are not paying attention. I said at 5 minutes you start building. This is to show there is plenty of time to scout, it's not a "oh no i missed his stargate with my first SCV now I die" situation. This push with 3 void ray and gateway units will come around 10-12 minutes. I used to do this push pretty often but it was too risky, so I stopped. I don't think 8 marines is a ton, + whatever else you were going to build anyway which hopefully included something to deal with stalkers. Thats a Command Center | ||
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