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About me: linko.266 on NA. ~2000 pt diamond Terran for whatever it's worth. Was #9 (in Blizz top 200) on NA at one point before I stopped laddering as much. I also play Toss the side so I do understand their mechanics and timings semi-well.
I don't normally complain, but I think Void Rays are flawed against Terran. I'm not saying they are overpowered, but just flawed in design.
The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Basically their build is Gate, Gas, Cyber, Gas, Stargate, Gate, Gate. They will attack with 3 VRs and about 10 stalkers, and maybe a sentry and zealot or two. They will build a pylon outside your ramp if there aren't rocks nearby to pre-charge up on. Once charged, VRs become the most cost effective unit in the game.
If you walled in (to stop 10pylon 10gates), you will lose your wall guaranteed since the stalkers/VR will come in at an angle where your bio can't all fire.
The only way I know how to survive this build is either a one-base 3-rax bio with a focus on marines or one base with 2-3 bunkers or one base 1/1/1 with Viking first out of starport. All three of those options are terrible against standard (non-stargate) play, so you usually don't want to just do it blind.
I think this design just makes T v P into a big build order poker because of the difficulty of scouting this.
Sample replays (just to show how to execute it from Toss side): GAME 1, GAME 2 This Toss player's build could be even more refined/deadly by adding a sentry for Guardian shield and macroing a little bit better. Yes, I could have microed better, etc.
My possible Solution #1: Let VRs charge up faster than they do now, but lose charge every time they switch targets.
Possible solution #2: Give VRs a heafty bonus damage to massive-type instead of armored-type (like corrupters).
Possible solution #3: Do not allow VRs to charge on friendly or neutral buildings/units.
This way, they are a proper counter to Collossi, Thors, BCs, Carriers, etc. I think it'll be very beneficial to the stale P v P matchup where the Collossi rules all.
Poll: Void rays need a change in their charge mechanic?Yes, their charge mechanic should be adjusted (844) 50% No need to change, they are perfect (844) 50% 1688 total votes Your vote: Void rays need a change in their charge mechanic? (Vote): Yes, their charge mechanic should be adjusted
(Vote): No need to change, they are perfect
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There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming.
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On October 09 2010 14:27 arterian wrote:
There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming.
That's true, but anything that's VERY DIFFICULT to scout shouldn't be so difficult to counter (ideally). I think all such builds are bad for a RTS because of the huge luck factor.
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Impossible to stop if you don't scout, you mean ? Do a safer build if you're losing to this often. Throw a scan if you don't know what your opponent is doing.
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On October 09 2010 14:38 Wolf wrote:
Impossible to stop if you don't scout, you mean ? Do a safer build if you're losing to this often. Throw a scan if you don't know what your opponent is doing.
They will hide the stargate in some remote corner of the map. Scanning will only put you way behind and see nothing. The only way to (possibly) scout it is to make a reaper and have it visit all 4 corners of the world and in every nook of their main too and pray stalkers don't find you during your trip.
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3 gate stalker? really?
also, there is no reason why you shouldn't at least see stalkers building up. Stargate might be build somewhere else to hide it yes, but when you scout and see pure stalkers, you should be worried, because as we all know, no one goes pure stalkers.
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My main annoyance with void rays is that they seem like a unit intended to kill big scary units -- battlecruisers, colossi, brood lords and the like -- and they really don't do that job well at all. As I see it, PvP is a colossus fest because protoss air doesn't effectively shoot down colossi like terran and zerg air do.
In terms of void rays wrecking face when you don't see them coming, applying pressure on the protoss front should tell you when something fishy is happening.
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Do you have any replays available that shows possible imbalance? I'm having a hard time seeing this work as flawlessly as you claim.
What exactly is your response to the build if you know it is coming, and what makes it so much harder to scout than any other build?
The vast majority of VR complains come from low end players, which is why I'm a bit shocked hearing this coming from a high end player. Unfortunately you don't give much input besides "3 void rays are cost effective and pillage my women and rape my cattle." Even your poll seems quite biased in it's wording.
EDIT: There also are only 16 US server 2000+ terran players, and half are pros. Pretty sure 2000 is pretty damn high to the point that it actually "means something."
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This game is still really young in terms of strats. I am sure in early Brood War that there were builds that seemed not "counterable" or unstoppable. But i think that something will develop sooner or later as everyone starts to understand the game a little bit more and high level creativity start to develop more.
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Calgary26004 Posts
You haven't proven your point. You've just said "They do this and it's impossible to stop".
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2000 diamond still having trouble against proxy stargates.
thats the point of building a proxy stargate. if they cant find it they reap the rewards.
its like me building a proxy starport and going banshee cloaked cheese. if i win does that mean banshees design is flawed. or is it because it was a risky flip of the coin strat.
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A build that is open, can transition into other builds, and if not seen a mile away you almost always will lose or take heavy losses? Weird every time I hear arguments like that I hear "zerg is fine L2Ps scrub"
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On October 09 2010 14:50 Chill wrote:
You haven't proven your point. You've just said "They do this and it's impossible to stop".
It's not impossible to stop. But it does require certain (very unideal) builds to stop.
I'm talking about top level toss players who pull a very well refined version of this build. The key is that they PRECHARGE the void rays and position their stalkers well, something that low level Toss players cannot do and low level Terrans have not experienced against.
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Wait wait wait. Wait. Terrans have scans. O SHI-
User was warned for this post
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On October 09 2010 14:52 TyrantPotato wrote:
2000 diamond still having trouble against proxy stargates.
thats the point of building a proxy stargate. if they cant find it they reap the rewards.
its like me building a proxy starport and going banshee cloaked cheese. if i win does that mean banshees design is flawed. or is it because it was a risky flip of the coin strat.
It's not really the same thing at all.
Proxy stargate forces T to produce vikings. Cloak banshees dumps 200 gas into a dead-end tech if P has observers (and they almost always will) and it doesn't really force anything except a couple mineral-only cannons.
Thus, one is a gamble while the other has at least a guaranteed return - forcing T to make vikings.
Also, the value of the gamble is pretty dramatically skewed in P's favor. If the cloak banshee strat pays off, P loses mining time while boosting an obs or tossing down cannons. If the VR strategy pays off, you autowin the game as your VRs destroy the T base in seconds. The risk/reward continuum is dramatically different.
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Just about all of me wants to scream troll at this point.
Please support your argument with a replay. Your thread has no purpose besides informing us all that there is a build so far above our heads that is impossible to stop... and we can't possibly understand it because we're all scum.
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On October 09 2010 15:00 yoshinori wrote:
Wait wait wait. Wait. Terrans have scans. O SHI-
That's probably the most ignorant post i've seen on this forums. Scan doesn't give vision of the whole map to the Terran player.
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On October 09 2010 14:44 Agenda42 wrote:
In terms of void rays wrecking face when you don't see them coming, applying pressure on the protoss front should tell you when something fishy is happening.
The problem with applying early pressure is that the toss can hold off your early attack by staying on top of their ramp until their warpgates finish researching. After warpgates are done, it's the Terran's turn to hide on top of their ramp until bioball critical mass is reached. If you watch top level T v P, pressure only happens before wargate research is complete, then the Terran goes back to cowering in his base. You won't see anything unusual with early pressure.
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I've always said that Voids should powerup quicker, but lose charge changing targets. (I posted on this just last week on SC2GDF) Instead as it stands, its a gimmick unit. If it charges fully now, it is the best unit vs every unit in the game. There have been games where I simply let the Protoss have my entire base because he snuck a half dozen voids in, they got charged, and my entire army couldn't counter them. I know a lot of people who play Protoss love this functionality. But the way Blizzard designed them was to counter BC/Carrier.
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Where are they getting all this gas/how early is this push hitting? Seems like you should be able to have a metric asston of bio by then if you went bio and just open up your wall and push out and blow it sky high in the middle of the map with some pretty standard M&M+stim (normal build for TVP anyway), rather than waiting at your ramp for them to push at you with pre-charged void rays. Heck, void rays are terrible against marines, even when they're charged. 10 damage per tick isn't that bad. Against armored, they DESTROY, though.
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EPT
