EPTI've seen similar builds executed on Gisado and they're definitely something that terran players have to consider, but I'm not convinced that it's harder to counter than a banshee/marine timing push.
Void Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 5
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jaj22
United Kingdom1376 Posts
I've seen similar builds executed on Gisado and they're definitely something that terran players have to consider, but I'm not convinced that it's harder to counter than a banshee/marine timing push. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On October 09 2010 15:37 LtLolburger wrote: Void rays are hardly a counter to battle cruisers or thors at all, as if they start attacking uncharged they will get beat down so hard its not even funny, as they are made of the finest protoss paper mache. Thus they NEED the ability to keep charge between targets. They have been through a constant nerf gauntlet since beta, they are fine as is. If you scan the protoss base and see only 2-3 gateways and no robo, you should assume hidden stargate and definitely be considering making more marines or vikings. 2 or so well placed turrets, with your engineering bay which you should be getting anyway, are also a good investment. lolwut, Voids beats Thors 1:1 and thors are a tad more expensive. Why do you immediately assume stargate if you don't see the robo with your scan? scan area is big, but hardly the wholemap. What if you missed that robo with the scan, assumed stargate, and immortals came knocking? Turrets are gonna do shit-all against Voids (unless spammed like in gold league). Voids only have 1 less range than turrets pre-upgrade. There'll WILL be places in your base Voids can charge up on. Also, don't 4get Void rays are air, thus will negate any high ground advantage you have when they attack with stalkers (also longer range than marines). @OP, I think back in early stages of alpha/beta void rays DID lose charge if target died. However, I think blizzard thought that made it too niche and micro intensive lol. I also remember the Terran QQ back in beta, which prompted the -1 range haha, I didn't mind because I was a Z player =D Lol in 200/200 battles, Voids beats everything i'm pretty sure, no matter what combo you have. | ||
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tournamentnow
Australia111 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
I can't believe that I'm writing this considering the OP is 2k diamond, but the reason why protoss opens with robo is that protoss HAS to know exactly what terran is doing, otherwise protoss just dies against the sheer variety of different terran-strats that all require different responses protoss is 90% reactionary in PvT, has to scout what terran goes for and then adapt; fast void rays is the ONLY build where protoss can be outright aggressive and where terran needs to scout/adapt to prevent getting killed....and we discuss balance; really? it comes down to this: terran goes for marine/banshee/raven - unscouted = dead protoss terran goes for hellion drop - unscouted = dead protoss terran goes for fast battlecruiser - unscouted = dead protoss terran goes for mass-marines no gas - unscouted = dead protoss (yes, even this we have seen in GSL) and finally the core problem: terran goes for fast cloaked banshees - no robo early = dead protoss protoss goes for void ray/gateway - unscouted = dead terran protoss goes for....wait...that's it there is really no other build from protoss that will insta-kill a terran who opens "standard" and doesn't adapt towards a specific timing-push yes, void rays are 100% win for protoss if unscouted, and rightly so; considering the many more timing-pushes terran can throw at protoss which also give terran a near 100% win when unscouted, is it really so much to ask that terran must have to specifically scout for this? notice that I'm in no way challenging the skill of the OP - I know that he is a much better player than I am and probably will ever be; still the point remains that it seems really weird to complain about the only timing push protoss really has against terran; I understand that the OP doesn't say this build is overpowered but just flawed in design; still I disagree strongly, because the threat of void rays is really something that is highly needed for the meta-game of PvT; seriously, no protoss would open robo if there weren't the threat of cloaked banshees; therefore yes, the fear of void rays hampers the effectiveness of terran because they have to scout and "guess" if there "could" be void rays incoming; same goes for protoss who are forced to pretty much open with observers to just not die which severely weakens the protoss tech possilibities; without cloaked banshees I would go fast twilight council each and every game, expand after I have chargelots/immortals/sentry and go towards templars so terran has to adapt their builds too...just to account for the potential threat of void rays; this is really needed, otherwise terran could feel completely safe to open with basicly everything they please | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
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Cashout
115 Posts
On October 09 2010 22:27 sleepingdog wrote: terran goes for marine/banshee/raven - unscouted = dead protoss terran goes for hellion drop - unscouted = dead protoss terran goes for fast battlecruiser - unscouted = dead protoss terran goes for mass-marines no gas - unscouted = dead protoss (yes, even this we have seen in GSL) and finally the core problem: terran goes for fast cloaked banshees - no robo early = dead protoss all of this builds are countered by 2gate robo | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
without immortals there are marauder/marine pushes who will kill you or at least reveal that you have voidrays cause you need them for defending.. also a fast banshee cloak build will hit before the protoss push? this build gives you no observer = no scout ability so its basically an allin. | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
On October 09 2010 22:37 Cashout wrote: all of this builds get countered by 2gate robo not only is this a bad post, but you're not even right. if you want to be wrong fine but at least offer something to the discussion. i agree though, there are multiple ways the terran player has to basically end the game immediately if the protoss player doesn't defend it very well. if any of you guys watched fenix vs kiwikaki game 2 yesterday: + Show Spoiler + you saw a really good example of this. fenix opened blue flame hellions, this would have ended the game immediately if kiwikaki didn't defend it so well. after that failed to do any damage at all he just expanded anyway and then went for cloaked banshees. this also ends the game immediately if the protoss doesn't scout/prepare for it well. after doing no damage with the banshees he took his third and won the game anyway, but the point is that at least from my perspective, the game seems a lot safer as a terran player. i'm not calling the MU imbalanced or anything, i just think protoss has so many ways to lose without scouting something early so i find this entire thread kind of funny. | ||
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Genesis128
Norway103 Posts
Yes I am fully aware of TL members loving the micro potential this ship gives (even after removing fazing). And they probably are balanced as there are no unbeatable builds including this unit. My point is however that from a narrative point, this unit is completely broken and fills an entirely different role than the original concept would say that it should. | ||
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SwaY-
Dominican Republic463 Posts
On October 09 2010 22:27 sleepingdog wrote: really no offense, but protoss has exactly ONE build terran needs to scout/adapt towards and this is void rays I can't believe that I'm writing this considering the OP is 2k diamond, but the reason why protoss opens with robo is that protoss HAS to know exactly what terran is doing, otherwise protoss just dies against the sheer variety of different terran-strats that all require different responses protoss is 90% reactionary in PvT, has to scout what terran goes for and then adapt; fast void rays is the ONLY build where protoss can be outright aggressive and where terran needs to scout/adapt to prevent getting killed....and we discuss balance; really? it comes down to this: terran goes for marine/banshee/raven - unscouted = dead protoss terran goes for hellion drop - unscouted = dead protoss terran goes for fast battlecruiser - unscouted = dead protoss terran goes for mass-marines no gas - unscouted = dead protoss (yes, even this we have seen in GSL) and finally the core problem: terran goes for fast cloaked banshees - no robo early = dead protoss protoss goes for void ray/gateway - unscouted = dead terran protoss goes for....wait...that's it there is really no other build from protoss that will insta-kill a terran who opens "standard" and doesn't adapt towards a specific timing-push yes, void rays are 100% win for protoss if unscouted, and rightly so; considering the many more timing-pushes terran can throw at protoss which also give terran a near 100% win when unscouted, is it really so much to ask that terran must have to specifically scout for this? notice that I'm in no way challenging the skill of the OP - I know that he is a much better player than I am and probably will ever be; still the point remains that it seems really weird to complain about the only timing push protoss really has against terran; I understand that the OP doesn't say this build is overpowered but just flawed in design; still I disagree strongly, because the threat of void rays is really something that is highly needed for the meta-game of PvT; seriously, no protoss would open robo if there weren't the threat of cloaked banshees; therefore yes, the fear of void rays hampers the effectiveness of terran because they have to scout and "guess" if there "could" be void rays incoming; same goes for protoss who are forced to pretty much open with observers to just not die which severely weakens the protoss tech possilibities; without cloaked banshees I would go fast twilight council each and every game, expand after I have chargelots/immortals/sentry and go towards templars so terran has to adapt their builds too...just to account for the potential threat of void rays; this is really needed, otherwise terran could feel completely safe to open with basicly everything they please tyvm exactly what I was trying to say in my previous point but you illustrate it perfectly. The key in this argument guys comes down that its the only build protoss can surprise terran with. | ||
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SwaY-
Dominican Republic463 Posts
On October 09 2010 22:32 5unrise wrote: yeah voidrays are deadly, but zerg is even more vulnerable to them than terran. I mean at least T has anti-air tier 1 unit, where zerg only has queens. But sorry I digress, I have to say i agree with your sentiment in any case. I dont think so, Zerg just needs an extra queen to deal with fast voids. its very bad build against Zerg IMO... | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
On October 09 2010 22:15 tournamentnow wrote: Tester vs Hopetorture, tester opened with void rays. Why would he do that? Because its worth risking because it is an balance design issue. Banshee opening doesn't outright win you games. Watch the blizzcon games for KR. Nex genius done void ray opening and won against maka prime. Same deal. so because a pro opened in this way one time (and lost the game anyway) thats reason to believe the unit is imbalanced? maybe robotics facility openings are imbalanced because thats what you see in the huge majority of pvt games. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
If they were just imba then that could be fixed just by tweaking the numbers, the bad design is what warrants a rework. | ||
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mGMUSE
Singapore112 Posts
obviously alot of people here do not know what they are talking about, the thing is with this toss build there is no hard counter to it, and it allows you to transition to other builds easily or at a very low cost, while giving you a very high percentage of winning the game right there. i dont think toss is OP but i've always thought of void rays as broken. even its unit info says 'aircraft designed to take out large units' or something along that line. and under its attack info 'attack damage increases the longer it stays on target'. these make me certain that void rays were meant to only charge up on single targets and lose their charge when changing targets. of course a buff to the vr's chargetime should be made if the mechanic were to be changed. | ||
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johanngrunt
Hong Kong1555 Posts
Early you can get them in if he's not expecting them and do damage. Late with a flock of speed voids, you can break the terran contain and harass at will. Mid, eh....... Maybe i'm just not good enough, but to me they're pretty worthless. Unlike terran units which are just pretty darn good anytime. Banshee, hellion, good at harass, good at doing the damage you need when you need. MMM, brutal. Ghosts, EMP, snipe, bonus damage to light. Eh..... | ||
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JaspluR
Australia174 Posts
On October 09 2010 22:37 Cashout wrote: all of this builds are countered by 2gate robo the reason toss go robo is they NEED an observer to scout terran and adapt. toss MUST scout then counter terran - this happens so toss DOESNT DIE, even though terran loses their army they will just expand and bunker up and still be safe in the game.. TvP is almost always in the terrans hands to decide how the toss will play.. its much more rare to see a toss sit in their base without robo and macro an army of their choice but almost always you see thats what the terran does now this void with gate support allows toss to apply pressure to a T as bunkers + repair is unbreakable, now terran complains? marines deal with voids pretty well, note that even though voids do decent damage to marines when charged - voids require a great amount of teching compared to MARINES... the first unit a terran can build. edit; oh yeah sleepingdog says this very well.. | ||
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Cashout
115 Posts
On October 09 2010 22:47 rycho wrote: not only is this a bad post, but you're not even right. if you want to be wrong fine but at least offer something to the discussion. i agree though, there are multiple ways the terran player has to basically end the game immediately if the protoss player doesn't defend it very well. if any of you guys watched fenix vs kiwikaki game 2 yesterday: + Show Spoiler + you saw a really good example of this. fenix opened blue flame hellions, this would have ended the game immediately if kiwikaki didn't defend it so well. after that failed to do any damage at all he just expanded anyway and then went for cloaked banshees. this also ends the game immediately if the protoss doesn't scout/prepare for it well. after doing no damage with the banshees he took his third and won the game anyway, but the point is that at least from my perspective, the game seems a lot safer as a terran player. i'm not calling the MU imbalanced or anything, i just think protoss has so many ways to lose without scouting something early so i find this entire thread kind of funny. fast robo -> obs provides enough intelligence to counter any build terran throws at you, its definatelly safest and most flexible pvt build. 3gats + void ray is only counterable if u know in advance its comming and thats pretty much impossible unless u are very lucky or have some kind of 6th sense, preparing for vr rush everygame puts u way behind any other "normal" P build. | ||
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TurtlePerson2
United States218 Posts
A good solution would be to make the prismatic beam a research item. That would slow down any timing attack with VRs by half a minute. The best solution would be to change their damage from + vs armored to + vs massive. I always figured that that attack was to kill BCs and Thors, since Protoss doesn't really have a unit that excels in that role. | ||
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