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On October 14 2010 11:10 slam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 10:34 GoldenH wrote:
I Had an amusing game last night, I had a dozen zealots and 3 VRs, when i got pushed by someone who did 2/1/1 with a raven, 5 marauders and 11 marines. I had not realized that VRs prioritzie ravens and PDDs over marines, but they do! So I didn't micro except to pre-charge my VRs (I was just screwing around and using my touchpad on my laptop, good luck microing with that). I lost my whole army and he only lost the raven, PDD, and 5 marines. It won't necessarily work, but definitely try dropping PDDs against void ray, he won't be able to attack move! (Hunter missile or Turret might also be a good try). LoL, are you really discussing a game in which you played using trackpad? Unless you have charge it makes sense that zealots wont do shit and it's your fault you didn't notice that your vrays were targeting PDD and raven. I doubt that vrays naturally target ravens over marines, it probably had to do with positioning. Why would you even post this?
Why would you even post this? The guy makes a valid point, if you don't micro Voidrays against a 2/1/1 push then you'll lose (even if they're pre-charged, which is when they're supposed to be "lolololol). Proving once again, that Voidrays aren't a "lolololol" unit, just like every other unit in the game.
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But he did suggest to summon a 45 hp PDD for tanking the voidrays...
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On October 14 2010 01:40 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 23:45 sleepingdog wrote:On October 13 2010 22:51 Thrombozyt wrote:
For the scouting:
So you bank your scouting on the metagame not letting him risk one stalker? huh? if he tries to challenge your tower-control you should definitely battle for it; I was speaking about if he moves out with his whole force - and plz don't tell me you can't keep map-control vs protoss before void rays are out? this would be ludicrous, terran early game dominates protoss; of course you can't read anything into one stalker, neither in the initial force up his ramp (I would never send a unit up there, in 99% of the cases he will have zealot/stalker/sentry in 1:2:1 proportion...no matter what...) Battle him how? If I have marauders and shells, then I have control anyhow and he won't move from his ramp, but then voidrays screw me for having too many marauders.
sorry, but void rays are a HUGE investment - there's just no way he can go into a fight with gateway only while he is waiting for void rays; not gonna happen; if you have marine/marauder 80:20 it will suffice;
in fact, I'd be very surprised if he'd even go for it in the first place
the timing immediately before my VR-attack comes is always the most critical because I DO NOT want to battle at this point; I will lose terribly on the field (for my 500/300 for 2 void rays you could've gotten marine/marauder) and furthermore - as already mentioned - I can't attack with rays "out there" either; I NEED the charge-up, if I fail it, I'm doomed; I loved the comparison with PDD, it's perfect; do whatever it takes to prevent him from throwing down his pylon, bringing his army in position and charging up
concerning scouting: I've written this numerous times, but you can also gain valuable intel from what you "not" see - early 2nd gas (comes before stalker btw), 3 gate and few gas-heavy units? no robo? definitely strange; protoss don't proxy their robos for good reasons
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And the Raven. keep in mind that 45 hp is the same hp as a marine..... and is light. and a raven has 140 HP and is light. if your marine isn't dying, that's much more DPS! Remember, he survived with 5 marines. if the raven and PDD hadn't been there, ouch!
And also, zealots are /much better/ against infantry than stalkers - these weren't just zealots they were chargelots. It's amazing that he did so well.
Sure, I was using a touchpad, but if I had been microing my units, I would never have noticed this priority trick. And if you can force the protoss player to have to click on your marines instead of just attack move for the win, then you have a chance to micro them and make his void ray waste shots.
Also I think its really interesting that he actually cast PDD against void rays. IT doesn't stop void ray, sentry or zealot, which is all I had. And he also did not cast a Turret, which is armored. So, I am curious if he knew that PDD had priority already.
Now I have adjusted my build to have sentries out earlier, so I think, 3 VRs and 2 sentry and 11 charge zealots is a pretty scary army to face.
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Unfortunately I don't have that replay apparently but I do have another one. The terran in this game does a great build which I think would work against anything involving void rays. So if you are having trouble with VRs and still want to tech this is the build for you.
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I think maybe EMP should make void rays lose their charge.
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On October 14 2010 19:29 StormsInJuly wrote:
I think maybe EMP should make void rays lose their charge.
good suggestion; also EMP should make colossi have range 6 again and cancel both force fields and guardian shields
then EMP wouldn't only metaphorically but literally counter protoss as a whole
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Pretty sure the 1/1/1 build deals with this handily.
Stalkers? Raven.
Zealots? Hellions with pre-igniter.
Colossi? Vikings.
Void Rays? Marines + Viking. Maybe a Siege Tank to cover Marines from Stalkers or Colossi.
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On October 14 2010 19:29 StormsInJuly wrote:
I think maybe EMP should make void rays lose their charge.
Good suggestion. This would make sense not only in balance but in design as well, as the EMP should disrupt the Void Ray charge. This might have a good chance of being implemented.
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random protoss just destroyed HopeTorture (rainbow) in GOM invitationnal with this strategy (but with zealots/sentries and not stalker, sentries allow forcefielding bunker so no repair)
Rainbow fast expanded and made a reactor so he lost crucial time, but he scouted the stargate.
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On October 14 2010 19:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 19:29 StormsInJuly wrote:
I think maybe EMP should make void rays lose their charge. good suggestion; also EMP should make colossi have range 6 again and cancel both force fields and guardian shields then EMP wouldn't only metaphorically but literally counter protoss as a whole
It should also just instantly kill all protoss robo units. After all, they are robotic, and EMP will fry their delicate circuits
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I have done this build - low diamond, the main reason why I lose using this build is poor unit control - other than that it is a very strong build.
I have tried to use it to transition to get an expansion - but atm it seems too strong to just go for a macro oriented play - adding guardian shield amplifies this build 10 fold as well
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I have not really used VR's since Beta because, well terran can usually easily counter them. I dont think I would ever use this method in a Ladder game because if they cloak banshee its an auto lose, but in a bo3 its def pretty great to do! Especially if you know your opponent goes heavy marauder. This was my first time really trying it but its vs a good terran who had beat me the game before and i wanted a rematch. hes ~1200 diamond.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157567.jpg)
Thanks Link0 for the thread, i have learned from it :D
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Personally, I prefer stargate openings to anything else in pvt. no pro here, but void rays are great against T if you can harass, manage to kill some scv's or a refinery. There is no way, however, that they are overpowered. a small group of stimmed marines muRdEr(!) vr's. Add in a viking or two and its over. But that is generally the idea in this game. Its so great because there is a constant need to adabt. He scouts the vr's, gets a couple of vikings, or more mariens, and your purpose as the p is to make that move, then immediately tech smitch to something else. This keeps both players on their toes.
But, if the T anticipates this switch with his scouting, knowlege - whatever -, then he'll hve the chance to tech switch to counter you. back and forth you'll go.
From a P's perspective, everything in this game is fine for now. I've read some posts about vr's losing charge after switch targets or target dieng.. wtf? seriously? play the game, try new things. Lets figure out the potential of the game, which I think is tremendous because the game is so user friendly compared to bw, before proposing a chg in the game's structure and mechanics.
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Anyways, I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that this build in particular isn't OP since you CAN scout it, and you can beat it if you don't play greedy.
This is an all-in that is borderline cheese. It is heavily reliant you on not scouting it. If you do scout it and counter attack before he has his critical mass army out, he's going to be in huge trouble.
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On October 15 2010 00:36 AlexXx wrote:I have not really used VR's since Beta because, well terran can usually easily counter them. I dont think I would ever use this method in a Ladder game because if they cloak banshee its an auto lose, but in a bo3 its def pretty great to do! Especially if you know your opponent goes heavy marauder. This was my first time really trying it but its vs a good terran who had beat me the game before and i wanted a rematch. hes ~1200 diamond. Thanks Link0 for the thread, i have learned from it :D
it actually beats cloaked banshee builds. It becomes a base race that you easily win
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I'm a lowly mid-level Plat player and while I understand the game decently my mechanics suck. That being said after reading 33 pages I firmly believe that there is only about 1 page of worthwhile posts.
When you have some of the top NA Terran's saying this sucks to play against, well that's when I go testing because they know a lot more then I do about the game.
A buddy of mine and I sat down and tried this out for awhile and I certainly can't add anything new since I am the lowly plat player. Everything I could add has already been stated by Link0, avilo, and iEchoic.
I'm hesitant to call it "broken" but something definitely isn't right. Maybe the 1.1.2 patch will change it since Void Rays just got nerfed pretty hard. o.O
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you know, you're terran.
you can just scan.
and don't say all that nonsense about scans being expensive; most people would GLADLY spend that number of minerals for an instantaneous clear look inside someone's main that lasts like 5 seconds. and almost all pros scan immediately after the first few mules.
If you see it coming, then adapt. It's not as if you have scans only after you've teched to mech.
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They JUST patched void rays:
Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
Damage level 2 DECREASED from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).
Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.
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I like the damage changes (They doubled damage until charge, so void rays won't be totally useless vs. armored before charge). I think the flux vanes nerf is _way_ overkill.
-Cross
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157511.jpg)
