EPTVoid Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 31
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TheGreatWhiteHope_
United States335 Posts
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Sadist
United States7255 Posts
On October 13 2010 12:46 RiB wrote: How about you scan instead of being a greedy MULE'r? Been addressed. Terran without mules get fucking owned early game anyway. | ||
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ToiletDuck
United States17 Posts
On October 13 2010 03:13 Gnial wrote: You must have missed the ? after it. And when I mentioned I have never had trouble with it. I'm guessing he simply scanned through your OP in the thread, instead of reading why your build works so well. | ||
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TheDrill
Russian Federation145 Posts
On October 13 2010 12:40 Masayoshi wrote: Although I'm just a lowly silver player, I tried this build yesterday and didn't lose once out of a bunch of matches against terran. There are a few points where the Terran could concievably hit me early and I would be mostly undefended, but silver/gold terrans tend to just sit in their base building up marauder heavy MM so they lose automatically. Maybe terrans will have to get more aggressive early on to counter this build? How do you get aggressive as terran early on? Do you mean like a BBS build? Million man? Any aggression terran has really comes after this protoss push. You didn't get the point of this thread. The push can be stopped and beaten by any 3barracks build that has at least one reactor. The problem is that 3barracks get owned by anything that isn't this build or 4gate. Protoss doesn't have any such problems with any terran builds. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Ssoulle
United Kingdom149 Posts
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
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Masayoshi
9 Posts
On October 13 2010 13:02 TheDrill wrote: How do you get aggressive as terran early on? Do you mean like a BBS build? Million man? Any aggression terran has really comes after this protoss push. You didn't get the point of this thread. The push can be stopped and beaten by any 3barracks build that has at least one reactor. The problem is that 3barracks get owned by anything that isn't this build or 4gate. Protoss doesn't have any such problems with any terran builds. No need to bite my head off, just a suggestion. It can be beaten by 3barracks head to head, that doesn't mean you can't stop it before it comes up by getting some more bio early or hellions even. Watching pro matches, it seems that they harass so early and so often, builds like this wont work at all because it leaves the Protoss with nothing to defend in the early game. If a pro Terran is harrassing and catches his opponent with only a sentry and a stalker defending the ramp, its unlikely he would just retreat. What if terrans scan the ramp at about 6-7 minutes every game, if there's nothing substantial there, attack. If there is a sizeable force, he probably doesn't have the resources to go void. You are saying that Protoss players don't have to build to robo specifically to deal with basically everything the Terran can possibly do? | ||
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Monkey5020
New Zealand24 Posts
On October 13 2010 13:18 Ssoulle wrote: The Void ray is a glass cannon after all, Marines half its value can kill it pretty quickly. Hahaha only to a protoss would a 250hp range 6 flying unit be a glass cannon. Try microing units with 45 hp. | ||
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Masayoshi
9 Posts
On October 13 2010 13:54 Monkey5020 wrote: Hahaha only to a protoss would a 250hp range 6 flying unit be a glass cannon. Try microing units with 45 hp. A glass cannon refers to something that deals out a lot more damage than it can take, not something that just dies quickly. | ||
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HansMoleman
United States343 Posts
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
..oh wait a moment, isn't that right almost half of the BOs currently out? cloacked banshee vs templarplay 1/1/1 vs collo 1 rack expo vs 4 gate and so on | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On October 13 2010 09:30 GreEny K wrote: I blame this to poor scouting. If you are pushing his front with even an SCV you will be able to tell that he is not at the unit numbers he should be at... Which should trigger you to scan and prepare for fishy play anyway. Any scouting will reveal 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry, which is doable no matter what build they go. This just tells you nothing at all and in no way should trigger you to waste much needed early game resources for a scan that - at best - reveals 70% of his base. | ||
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Dreadwolf
Canada220 Posts
On October 13 2010 15:38 Thrombozyt wrote: Any scouting will reveal 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry, which is doable no matter what build they go. This just tells you nothing at all and in no way should trigger you to waste much needed early game resources for a scan that - at best - reveals 70% of his base. if you micro you scv it should live until he has a stalker, wont that show you his pylons and then you know where to scan? could you use the factory to scout? could u have sensor tower to engage voidray before they charge? | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 13 2010 05:10 Thrombozyt wrote: Looking at your suggestions, I would like to respond: a) if you go pure marine, how on earth will you move out without stalker kiting you all day long? You need either marauders with shells or stim to prevent that. Granted I haven't played this, but I believe it delays your marine/banshee timing by a ton. I even provided a source - eg. demuslim 2-0ed naniwa lately (EPS I think) with this exact BO; since it opens with pure marines AND stim it is the basic definition of an anti-void-ray opening and still not tailored to it but supposed to kill an expo-ing or robo-heavy toss right now (which it did) b) in the early stages of the 1/1/1 money is really tight. I don't know where I should pull 325 min from. Besides there is barely a placement, where voids cannot focus the bunker out of turret range or just take down the turrets out of bunker range. Especially when it has to be out of stalker range, too. Then there is also another problem: Split forces. Voids in the back while the rest hits your front. You better have 2+ bunkers and SCVs already in place etc. provided you have more than 15 marines to man the bunkers AND combat the voidrays. it's really a question of placement and micro; if you place the turrets correctly (NOT directly at the front but a little bit behind the ramp) then the void rays have to move just far enough forward so your marines can shoot at them while the stalkers down the ledge can not touch the marines; test it, it is perfectly do-able; as I said, turrets are not there to kill but to force the rays to shoot at them - meaning marines live c) 1 Viking indeed does little. So i don't understand why you bring it up. You won't have enough stuff to block his attack if you went 1/1/1, as nothing the factory makes is strong enough and you get hit when the first viking is done if the toss goes for 2 VR. Yes, you can scout, but that just means the viking gets hit by stalkers and he precharges his voids in your face on the building pylon. 1 viking provides all the scouting-intel you need - as I said it's a question of scouting; don't see a probe heading towards you? no pre-charge anytime soon; see something fishy, then you know you need a 2nd viking ASAP; with two vikings you can intercept void rays already quite effectively with hit/run and move out while they are preparing for their charge-up; I really, really encourage everyone to try this out yourselves: you will be full of adrenaline while you prepare for the charge because once you've played this a couple of games you know that THIS is when you are really vulnerable since charge-less void rays are crap in midgame To the scouting: As I have written in my ignored post (bottom p 21), 1 roaming stalker can easily kill anything you field early as long as you don't make marauders with shells (which eats into your marine count). True, midgame the toss rarely moves out, as soon as marauders are on the field, but with marauders on the field, the voidrays probably won't need the ground support. Also note the timing of the push: shortly after the first air unit has been completed in a 1/1/1 setup. There is no game ending drop. Sure, hellions could roast each and every of your drone, but not having a base or army is worse. you misunderstood my post - it's all about metagame; protoss knows that marauders will kill anything he has, therefore he will stay in his base; the ONLY situation where protoss can really afford to move out is either with tons of immortals OR with (proxied) void rays; also, protoss knows that hellion drops will kill him - again, the ONLY situation where protoss can afford losing almost all of his probes is when he intends to outright kill his opponent; you are completely missing my point, I never said that marauders or hellions "counter" void rays, how stupid would that be; exactly the opposite, when you see a protoss-player out in the field in early midgame you know that he doesn't FEAR marauders and hellion drops; now why would a protoss NOT fear this? there you go, void rays are the only reason why a protoss in his right mind would take such a risk | ||
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Gnial
Canada907 Posts
On October 13 2010 13:02 ToiletDuck wrote: I'm guessing he simply scanned through your OP in the thread, instead of reading why your build works so well. Why my build worked* so well - past tense, haha. Doing the build I have posted can work, but it isn't as strong as it once was when I first posted it. Thats not to say it won't get you far, and won't work some of the time at high levels - but there are versions I consider better being used on the ladder and in tournaments. Personally, I no longer use solely stalkers - rather I prefer a zealot-stalker composition. And whenever I can I try to do the white-ra build posted below; but note that it is map/position specific. Nowadays I only do 1-gate into stargate for my opening, no longer the dual-stalker opening, and I do early pressure with a quick chrono'd zealot, followed by a stalker. White-ra has been doing a very similar build with quite a lot of success (I have mostly just copied him ^^). I've seen him lose with it a couple of times, and win with it many more times. He uses zealots instead of stalkers, and tries to circumvent the ramp completely. I have tried it numerous times and I have had a ton of success with it. (although I didn't save reps, so attribute whatever value you want to my personal testimony) For some reason, I can only find 2 of the replays, so you'll have to make what you will with these. One is a win and one is a loss. Win http://www.mediafire.com/?c8d8dh3me9u942q Loss http://www.mediafire.com/?xos35x6izil6o5t In the loss I don't know what white-ra was doing; on one base he did void ray + templar tech + late expand, and made almost no units after his initial harass/all-in, which may have worked out if he hadn't failed his void ray micro so badly. I've seen white-ra lag badly in some of his games, so maybe this is one of them - although since that game was on the Europe server perhaps that excuse isn't relevant. I think if you try to look at the build for what works and what could work you should come away with a positive feel about it despite the fact that he lost. For instance, imagine if he hadn't suicided 2 (or 3 depending on how nice you want to be to him) void rays.He could have kept threatening with those void rays and prevented strelok from committing to such a powerful counter attack. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On October 13 2010 16:49 sleepingdog wrote: I even provided a source - eg. demuslim 2-0ed naniwa lately (EPS I think) with this exact BO; since it opens with pure marines AND stim it is the basic definition of an anti-void-ray opening and still not tailored to it but supposed to kill an expo-ing or robo-heavy toss right now (which it did) it's really a question of placement and micro; if you place the turrets correctly (NOT directly at the front but a little bit behind the ramp) then the void rays have to move just far enough forward so your marines can shoot at them while the stalkers down the ledge can not touch the marines; test it, it is perfectly do-able; as I said, turrets are not there to kill but to force the rays to shoot at them - meaning marines live 1 viking provides all the scouting-intel you need - as I said it's a question of scouting; don't see a probe heading towards you? no pre-charge anytime soon; see something fishy, then you know you need a 2nd viking ASAP; with two vikings you can intercept void rays already quite effectively with hit/run and move out while they are preparing for their charge-up; I really, really encourage everyone to try this out yourselves: you will be full of adrenaline while you prepare for the charge because once you've played this a couple of games you know that THIS is when you are really vulnerable since charge-less void rays are crap in midgame you misunderstood my post - it's all about metagame; protoss knows that marauders will kill anything he has, therefore he will stay in his base; the ONLY situation where protoss can really afford to move out is either with tons of immortals OR with (proxied) void rays; also, protoss knows that hellion drops will kill him - again, the ONLY situation where protoss can afford losing almost all of his probes is when he intends to outright kill his opponent; you are completely missing my point, I never said that marauders or hellions "counter" void rays, how stupid would that be; exactly the opposite, when you see a protoss-player out in the field in early midgame you know that he doesn't FEAR marauders and hellion drops; now why would a protoss NOT fear this? there you go, void rays are the only reason why a protoss in his right mind would take such a risk I agree, that 2rax with tech and reactor to get stim will deal with voidrays. I hadn't seen the demuslim matches and from 2 rax reactor build I couldn't infer the stim which is needed to move out. For the turrets you claimed intially (at least the way I read it) that you position them that the VR cannot attack either turret or bunker without being fired at by both. Which isn't possible given the ranges and footprints. Bunkering up away from your ramp, so that the bunkers and the turrets are not placed at an edge and the non-bunkered marines can move inbetween and support against the voidrays is nice - still you don't address the simple method to split your attack with voidrays in the back of the base and the gateway in front. Suddenly you have wasted 325 mins, which equals 1 rax and 3-4 marines. Given the timing of the attack, at least I cannot squeeze in turrets without either delaying the starport or skimping on SCVs/marines. So I don't feel like this is an option. That leaves the viking. With the straight 1/1/1 build, you will get hit soon after your first viking. VRs have a range of 6, that means you have 12 distance units between the pylon and your first target and 18 units (because the VRs can charge up on the far side and then briefly touch the pylon twice to keep up the charge) between your ramp and the place the VRs charge up. The viking will show you, that he is charging up in your face, but little more. Yes, you can cancel your medivac/raven/banshee and get another viking that will come out 20-30 secs into the battle. I had the situation, but the voidrays had moved into my base from the back and were fighting next to my starport and a quick change of target and the viking was down without doing much. The 3/1/2 build used in the marine banshee timing push should be the perfect counter - you get the starport up ASAP, then have 3 rax to make marines and a techlab to research the upgrades. Still you end up with way too little stuff by the time the VR push happens, even if you get a viking first. Been there and lost :/ For the scouting: So you bank your scouting on the metagame not letting him risk one stalker? Seems like the metagame that I play here is different, because I get the good old 1-stalker-poke from each opponent and they often keep him around unless he gets slowed and sees 2+ marauders. But it seems I have scouting problems anyhow, as I cannot ready a toss BO from the 2 stalker/1zealot/1sentry force at the top of his ramp. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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