EPTVoid rays are fine, just like the 10 different things T can throw against P that doesn't scout and lose right there.
Void Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 29
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
Void rays are fine, just like the 10 different things T can throw against P that doesn't scout and lose right there. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On October 13 2010 01:00 ToxNub wrote: I don't understand how people are still denying that Voids aren't a problem. There is one build that terran can do to survive this. If he doesn't 3 rax (marine heavy, ghost optional), he dies. Earlier in this thread it has been agreed upon that this is holdable with at least 2rax rine ghost and fast viking playing. Thus this proven false. It really is as simple as using a scouting probe to check to see if he is. A scouting probe can count marines at the front but you can always hide your numbers, it only takes a single marine with some decent reaction times to stop a scouting probe from getting vision of anything. Protoss opens with a 2gateish play (double chrono stalker is my favorite), scouts the entrance for a factory, and if he sees one he makes a stargate, and the game is done. It really has little to do with the unit itself, but the fact that the terran player often has to be able to see into the future to know his opponent is going void rays from the first minute of the game. It's not like you can scan, see a stargate building a void ray, and then make the 10+ marines (and you also had to research stim somewhere along here) out of 1 rax. This is just blatantly wrong. Don't even mention the speed upgrade. If the protoss can squeeze that upgrade in, even units that are basically hard counters to the void, like the hydralisk start to get owned. They just dance around, abusing cliffs, charge on a building before your units can get there, and proceed to kill your "counter" army with just shield damage and then start your base. They're going to squeeze in an extra 450 minerals 350 gas and 140 seconds? That makes no sense. Either their push is going to come massively later or they're going to have essentially no gateway units supporting it. So what's the problem? I mean, a unit doing some good damage isn't the issue. The problem is twofold and unique to the voideray: 1. If you don't scout it, you're utterly dead. Nothing in the game has this property besides cheese rushes and dt/banshee rushes (however, see #2 for the difference). This is why people refer to it as "void ray cheese". Even fast banshee will run out of cloak eventually and then you can pop up some cannons. Not true, look at the jimpo vs adel replay for instance to see a completely unscouted void ray coming in precharged getting crushed. It's more likely considered cheese because there is no good next step if it doesn't immediately win you have a weak ground army a weak economy no detection and no transition other than heavily cutting unit production and expanding. 2. Even if do you scout it, you still might lose. You might scout the stargate even being put down, and you still might lose, because the required response to a void ray isn't as simple as a single tech structure. It's like "oh, cool voids, I need to go back in the game 5 minutes and unbuild these tanks and add 2 more rax with reactors". Fuck, I've nearly died against terrible opponents that I KNEW were going mass voids and immediately planted a hydra den... As a general rule, if you can see exactly what your opponent is building, and he can't see what you're making, you should crush him (micro excluded). First you call it cheese then you say that if you scout it you can still lose to it, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese means that if scouted it will almost surely fail. What does a hydra den have to do with void rays in PvT? That general rule is meaningless, you can have a better strategy, better mechanics, better timings, better multitask, there are many things you can use to win beyond just micro even if you're opponent has full vision. | ||
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ahcho00
United States220 Posts
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Gnial
Canada907 Posts
On October 13 2010 00:06 superstartran wrote: Marine/Ghost = potential counter in your first post in that thread. You must have missed the ? after it. And when I mentioned I have never had trouble with it. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On October 13 2010 03:04 ahcho00 wrote: vikings have a vision range of 10?...maybe on the ground. Why do you continue to argue against facts? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Terran_Unit_Stats | ||
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Panzamelano
Colombia248 Posts
Why is it so bad that you gotta change your BO to counter this 1 strat when us protoss gotta 2 gate robo pretty much all the time or die to cloacked banshees or just mmm early on? its the same... we gotta go whit BOs we dont want to use just to be safe from your strategies and you gotta do the same. god terrans are so spoiled | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On October 13 2010 03:24 Panzamelano wrote: god terrans are so spoiled Sums up this thread perfectly. | ||
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xseverityx
52 Posts
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Payout
45 Posts
On October 13 2010 03:24 Panzamelano wrote: there is a really simple argument against what the OP says.... Why is it so bad that you gotta change your BO to counter this 1 strat when us protoss gotta 2 gate robo pretty much all the time or die to cloacked banshees or just mmm early on? its the same... we gotta go whit BOs we dont want to use just to be safe from your strategies and you gotta do the same. god terrans are so spoiled wish i had one build i could go every game which would let me feel safe and dont end behind vs any build my opponent chooses, god protoss players are so spoiled ps. going robo every game was also the case in bw, how the hell can u complain about having such versatile and good build which in theory can counter any build terran throws at you | ||
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SwaY-
Dominican Republic463 Posts
On October 13 2010 03:36 Payout wrote: wish i had one build i could go every game which would let me feel safe and dont end behind vs any build my opponent chooses, god protoss players are so spoiled ps. going robo every game was also the case in bw, how the hell can u complain about having such versatile and good build which in theory can counter any build terran throws at you Because you're putting it off like its a good thing, basically, we cant open with citadel. | ||
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Panzamelano
Colombia248 Posts
also... most of terran builds do fine against Everything you can throw at them (except this voidray + gateway units push which needs a better BO to be stopped than most of our strats)so your argument of "oh i wish i had this 1 build that can save me of anything" cause if you just spent a bit more time working on the builds to make them safer you would be 100% safe against anything whit almost all your builds (comeon most of terran builds are pretty much safe of everything you can throw at them). | ||
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kmkkmk
Germany418 Posts
On October 09 2010 15:02 PanzerKing wrote: It's not really the same thing at all. Proxy stargate forces T to produce vikings. Cloak banshees dumps 200 gas into a dead-end tech if P has observers (and they almost always will) and it doesn't really force anything except a couple mineral-only cannons. Since when are banshees a dead end, they deal terrible, terrible damage. | ||
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Proximo
38 Posts
Secondly, I've used this build it CAN be good but it can just as easily be countered. There is a huge window for the T player to rush,. In that first replay if the Terran waited for the Force field to wear off and then pushed he would have won as the P player had nothing. Also if the Terran player intercepted the Protoss player on his way to the base he would have won. In fact, when I've tried this build Terran who beat me catch me halfway to their base with uncharged Voids = gg. Don't see how you can complain when you didn't scout, didn't push, and hid in your base waiting to lose. That said, Voids may be slightly OP if they are not countered/scouted properly, they seem a tad too powerful sometimes and this coming from a Toss player. 2 or 3 charged voids in your base early = gg if you're not ready. No other unit punishes you has hard as Voids if you're not prepared. However Marauders are worse, which Terran use every single game and are a lot cheaper and less risky then going Voids. Moral of the story - scout and be prepared. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Not to mention the complete disrespect for Linko. I don't even want to start on that. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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marcusklaas
Netherlands81 Posts
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Avrion
36 Posts
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
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PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
On October 13 2010 02:11 slam wrote: This thread is crap. As the rules of the strategy forum state, give proof. I see no proof of Terran responding well to this strategy and still getting steamrolled. Yes, if poorly responded, Voidrays can be very unforgiving. But they are not hard to counter and I do not believe that they are over powered. EDIT: this is not so much directed to the OP. More so to all the QQ going on as a response. The only way to respond well (if you look through the replays shown) is to go a variation of 3 rax or marine/ghost, both of which are suboptimal against pretty much any other p build. And because you can't realistically scout this build, it essentially forces you to do this every game. | ||
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ahcho00
United States220 Posts
On October 13 2010 03:16 Jaeger wrote: Why do you continue to argue against facts? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Terran_Unit_Stats sorry. | ||
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