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I play Terran, I'm only 800 Diamond, but I barely ladder.
Point being, Void Rays are my most unfavoured PvT Strat, I am extremely aware of Protoss going VR because if you don't have a counter, they are game enders.
Having said that, I don't see them as broken, or imbalanced, They are just a very powerful unit, but they take alot of dmg, they don't have much health, and the Terran basic unit (marine) is a great counter to them.
No problem at all, I find PvT to be a very balanced matchup at the moment.
To be fair, (again I play Terran), Terran can't exactly comment on the so called 'imbalances' of the game at the moment. We are still a very strong race.
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On October 12 2010 06:42 ahcho00 wrote:
can we read please?...fully charged -- and people are asking why i put stuff in caps. yes 1 viking will beat 3 normal void rays but 1 viking will NOT beat 3 charged void rays because once the viking stops to attack which takes about 1 second, the void ray will catch up in distance and lock onto the viking and the viking will be done in 2-3 seconds tops with 3. If your vikings get hit by void rays without fleet beacon speed upgrade then your unit control could use some work.
This strategy is strong. It's equally as strong if you 2 gate instead of 3. I'm not debating that. You will still lose if the VRs come knocking at your door charged up, but if I've learned anything it's that handing map control over for no reason is dumb as hell and inviting crap like this to happen. Especially on Steppes.
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On October 12 2010 09:21 JustPlay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:42 ahcho00 wrote:
can we read please?...fully charged -- and people are asking why i put stuff in caps. yes 1 viking will beat 3 normal void rays but 1 viking will NOT beat 3 charged void rays because once the viking stops to attack which takes about 1 second, the void ray will catch up in distance and lock onto the viking and the viking will be done in 2-3 seconds tops with 3. If your vikings get hit by void rays without fleet beacon speed upgrade then your unit control could use some work. This strategy is strong. It's equally as strong if you 2 gate instead of 3. I'm not debating that. You will still lose if the VRs come knocking at your door charged up, but if I've learned anything it's that handing map control over for no reason is dumb as hell and inviting crap like this to happen. Especially on Steppes.
no sir...it's just 1 viking -- with 3-4 vikings i can micro fine. hell even 2 vikings. but against the stargate/3 gateway, 1 and 2 vikings is a big difference. and please keep in mind they're charged - i know it doesn't affect distance or anything, but once the voidray locks on u have to go for quite some time before the charge gets released off ur viking. with less than a few seconds for ur viking, the charged vr usually takes the viking out.
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On October 12 2010 06:15 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:14 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:09 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 06:03 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:00 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so. Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding. See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game... Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either. the whole point is if he isn't going VRs, dude. I know. And if he isn't going VRs then you still have marines+stim and a viking for scouting, saving a MULE. Sure, viking will be useless, but I guess that's the point of proxy tech, eh? Maybe throw down more bunkers. You can always get your money back. Too bad cannons don't work like that... you can do all of those things. If he goes for a 2 gate FE his expo will be up and running before you even start yours. And you will be able to scout it with your viking. Good job. You can't do any kind of aggression early on w/ early stim rines or 1/1/1, so he can control the map pretty easily. Opening with stimmed marauder/rine gives you map control, but sucks vs void rays.
After 27 pages I'm getting the feeling the reason terrans feel void rays are too good is that marauders can't answer them...
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On October 12 2010 09:26 ahcho00 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 09:21 JustPlay wrote:On October 12 2010 06:42 ahcho00 wrote:
can we read please?...fully charged -- and people are asking why i put stuff in caps. yes 1 viking will beat 3 normal void rays but 1 viking will NOT beat 3 charged void rays because once the viking stops to attack which takes about 1 second, the void ray will catch up in distance and lock onto the viking and the viking will be done in 2-3 seconds tops with 3. If your vikings get hit by void rays without fleet beacon speed upgrade then your unit control could use some work. This strategy is strong. It's equally as strong if you 2 gate instead of 3. I'm not debating that. You will still lose if the VRs come knocking at your door charged up, but if I've learned anything it's that handing map control over for no reason is dumb as hell and inviting crap like this to happen. Especially on Steppes. no sir...it's just 1 viking -- with 3-4 vikings i can micro fine. hell even 2 vikings. but against the stargate/3 gateway, 1 and 2 vikings is a big difference. and please keep in mind they're charged - i know it doesn't affect distance or anything, but once the voidray locks on u have to go for quite some time before the charge gets released off ur viking. with less than a few seconds for ur viking, the charged vr usually takes the viking out.
What you're missing, what everyone is saying, is that with good control a viking will never get hit by a void ray, thus unless he flanks you with a surprise void ray and sandwiches your viking your viking should never take any damage. This is because they have range 9 and 2.75 speed vs a range 6 void ray with 2.25 speed and because their attack animation is so short that if you get within the 9 range and then begin moving away from the void ray then attack the void ray you can begin moving again well before the viking has fully decelerated and continuously kite them without ever being hit until you run out of map as long as the void rays are all coming from the same general direction.
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I ran into this although I got attacked a bit earlier than with 10 stalkers and 3 void rays.
It is ridiculous hard to gauge and what is almost a guaranteed loss is if you built anything at your ramp as it will fall. Playing against random has just gotten a lot more painful.
So in this game I go out to scout and I see gas before core and wonder what could be up. Void rays could be an option, DTs maybe, could still be something more standard. So I prepare for 1-2 void rays flying in on their own but they never come. Go to scout, still got very little stuff in his base so I decide to put a bunker at the ramp. Very bad decision.
This was on jungle basis with the stargate next to the rocks. It's so difficult because the rays can charge up and you're very marine heavy which is never good against stalkers.
Void rays flying in on their own has already been annoying to deal with early on and I wonder why no one thought to bring stalkers along earlier.
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That Gnial build does stalkers+VRs at your front. Been on here for ages. This is just a better timing/more all-in version of that.
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I think the Void Ray charge should still linger after switching targets, but not for as long as it currently does.
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Man, do people forget how much marines HURT? They do more DPS than marauders, even on armored targets. A pile of marines + only a small portion of marauders with concussive shell will wreck a more expensive, but equal supply, pile of stalkers. If he's going VR / stalker, he's not going to have the gas to have storm or colossi, and thus your marine-heavy comp is pretty baller, and you have gas free to do ... stuff.
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VRs need to be worse early game and better in the late game, plain and simple.
This is the best suggestion. Lower the VR base damage, but make upgrades give them more damage at +3.
But I think that marine shield and hydras are both available early enough to deal with them. It's protoss that really has a problem (though phoenix will eat VRs, and it's quite respectable to mass them, some players don't seem to like the idea?)
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You have to remember voidray micro is an absolute apm sink, and that one misclick can cost you ridiculous amount of minerals. This is the reason why I don't use voidrays(because i dish out 100 apm). If there is a protoss that can harass you with voidrays, and macro up to the point where when you eventually shut down the voidrays and move out, he has more shit than you do, then thats a matter of skill, not voidray.
Moreover, a single viking with a bit of micro will shut down any voidray play. The range 9 is ridiculous. Even if you start making vikings when the voidrays are at your base, you can stall enough time with marines to get the viking out. Once its out, then voidrays really can't do much.
Also, if you think voidrays are flawed because it forces you to get marines, or because it is somewhat good against a slower tech, rax focused play, then you really should stop QQing. Hope this isn't the case.
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Um, 3 gate SG is no beuno
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the only problem with the viking vs the void ray is the vision part. so fully charged ways will rip ur viking(s) apart. yes, u have a range of 9 vs a range of 6, but ur vision is not a range of 9 therefore ur range is ur vision, which i believe is also 6 so u need to almost go head to head with the void ray.
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On October 12 2010 11:05 ahcho00 wrote:
the only problem with the viking vs the void ray is the vision part. so fully charged ways will rip ur viking(s) apart. yes, u have a range of 9 vs a range of 6, but ur vision is not a range of 9 therefore ur range is ur vision, which i believe is also 6 so u need to almost go head to head with the void ray.
except vikings have a vision range of 10...
Also why is there so much discussion about the toss attacking the terran wall-in. I don't see why terran would ever want to wall in against toss, the only advantage of it is stopping the extremely rare DT openings but they take a lot of time anyway so that you can easily save up a scan and get a raven in time to deal with them.
The sight advantage of the ramp + 1 or 2 marauders with slow and potential bunkers is enough to stop normal 4 gate's and against any other pressure like VR's the wall-in just sucks. Yet many people argue that the voids are so annoying against your wallin but T never even walls in anymore at high level....
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On October 12 2010 11:39 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 11:05 ahcho00 wrote:
the only problem with the viking vs the void ray is the vision part. so fully charged ways will rip ur viking(s) apart. yes, u have a range of 9 vs a range of 6, but ur vision is not a range of 9 therefore ur range is ur vision, which i believe is also 6 so u need to almost go head to head with the void ray. except vikings have a vision range of 10... Also why is there so much discussion about the toss attacking the terran wall-in. I don't see why terran would ever want to wall in against toss, the only advantage of it is stopping the extremely rare DT openings but they take a lot of time anyway so that you can easily save up a scan and get a raven in time to deal with them. The sight advantage of the ramp + 1 or 2 marauders with slow and potential bunkers is enough to stop normal 4 gate's and against any other pressure like VR's the wall-in just sucks. Yet many people argue that the voids are so annoying against your wallin but T never even walls in anymore at high level....
The cited reason for a wall-in (earlier in this thread) is to not lose scvs to a 10pylon 10gate chrono zealot, but that doesn't seem valid as marines and marauders and reapers can micro well against zealots and scvs are faster than zealots so proper micro (i.e. running them away when the zealot is hitting them) and they should never die, add onto that the protoss is cutting economy heavily to do that and it seems unnecessary to wall-in.
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On October 12 2010 12:40 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 11:39 Markwerf wrote:On October 12 2010 11:05 ahcho00 wrote:
the only problem with the viking vs the void ray is the vision part. so fully charged ways will rip ur viking(s) apart. yes, u have a range of 9 vs a range of 6, but ur vision is not a range of 9 therefore ur range is ur vision, which i believe is also 6 so u need to almost go head to head with the void ray. except vikings have a vision range of 10... Also why is there so much discussion about the toss attacking the terran wall-in. I don't see why terran would ever want to wall in against toss, the only advantage of it is stopping the extremely rare DT openings but they take a lot of time anyway so that you can easily save up a scan and get a raven in time to deal with them. The sight advantage of the ramp + 1 or 2 marauders with slow and potential bunkers is enough to stop normal 4 gate's and against any other pressure like VR's the wall-in just sucks. Yet many people argue that the voids are so annoying against your wallin but T never even walls in anymore at high level.... The cited reason for a wall-in (earlier in this thread) is to not lose scvs to a 10pylon 10gate chrono zealot, but that doesn't seem valid as marines and marauders and reapers can micro well against zealots and scvs are faster than zealots so proper micro (i.e. running them away when the zealot is hitting them) and they should never die, add onto that the protoss is cutting economy heavily to do that and it seems unnecessary to wall-in.
1. You usually have to wall in if you want to do 1-1-1 and survive very early game since you don't have marauders. You likely won't be able to put up a bunker if you only have 1 rax and the Toss pressures you.
2. The 10pylon/10gate is very heavily used by top Toss players (Huk, Axslav). Clearly they use it because it's effective.
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The only way void rays are of any use at all is if they don't get scouted. The minute you know they are there they become useless as any unit with an air attack shuts them down before they get charged. If you let multiple void rays get charged that's bad play on your part.
Maybe stop being greedy with MULE's and throw down a scan? It's no different than cloaked Banshees, they completely rely on being unscouted. That starport tech lab pretty much forces Protoss to build a Robo Bay every single game delaying any other tech route, opening anything other than Robo bay against Terran only works if you have excellent scouting, which, ironically, only comes from the Robo bay!. If you see a Protoss go Stargate, he has no detection! cloaked Banshee will cripple him. It is pretty ridiculous. If he wastes money on canons, hit his army. At the very least this forces a Robo bay regardless and delays his tech.
Protoss is the only race in the game that is forced to build a specific tech structure for meaningful detection. Zerg automatically get overseers, Terran's automatically get scans, and if they want they can get Ravens, which usually doesn't require straying from your build at all. Take advantage of that and you will see void rays are no big deal.
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On October 12 2010 13:13 phant wrote:
The only way void rays are of any use at all is if they don't get scouted. The minute you know they are there they become useless as any unit with an air attack shuts them down before they get charged. If you let multiple void rays get charged that's bad play on your part.
Maybe stop being greedy with MULE's and throw down a scan? It's no different than cloaked Banshees, they completely rely on being unscouted. That starport tech lab pretty much forces Protoss to build a Robo Bay every single game delaying any other tech route, opening anything other than Robo bay against Terran only works if you have excellent scouting, which, ironically, only comes from the Robo bay!. If you see a Protoss go Stargate, he has no detection! cloaked Banshee will cripple him. It is pretty ridiculous. If he wastes money on canons, hit his army. At the very least this forces a Robo bay regardless and delays his tech.
Protoss is the only race in the game that is forced to build a specific tech structure for meaningful detection. Zerg automatically get overseers, Terran's automatically get scans, and if they want they can get Ravens, which usually doesn't require straying from your build at all. Take advantage of that and you will see void rays are no big deal.
Please...stop and read the thread. The scan thing has been discussed to death, it is not a viable solution to anything.
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On October 11 2010 15:01 superstartran wrote:
Also, Gnial himself said that Marine/Ghost is a counter to his strat, which *gasp* is exactly the unit composition that Brat_OK's opening/general strategy calls for. Proxy VR is one of the easiest builds to counter in the game, and hardly any top player gets beaten by it (especially top Korean pros, although they slip up once in awhile) because they scan, they open early aggression for poking/punishing greedy players, etc.
I don't recall saying that ^^
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On October 12 2010 13:08 link0 wrote:
1. You usually have to wall in if you want to do 1-1-1 and survive very early game since you don't have marauders. You likely won't be able to put up a bunker if you only have 1 rax and the Toss pressures you.
ok, since this thread has become a bit more civilized on the last pages I'll give this another try
what I wanted to ask specifically you and others who are good player is, why you are of the opinion that you even SHOULD be able to safely do 1/1/1? who knows if blizzard ever intended 1/1/1 to be do-able aka hold-able vs early aggression or timing-pushes? what I don't understand is, why many of you seem to strongly believe that you are SUPPOSED to be able to play 1/1/1 without there being any strategy from protoss that can punish it - notice this is pure theory-craft, I'm not talking about specific micro-moves or responses in particular;
it's the same as protoss players now try to figure out if nexus first at 15 can be played against zerg; many started doing it because the metagame shifted: zealots nerf --> more zergs hatch first --> nexus first into fast phoenixes punishs this hard (because it counters the most obvious zerg tech: the mass-muta harass into hive-tech); nevertheless it may turn out that nexus first is "too" greedy and that there are hatch first builds that will kill it, no matter how good you are at defending with cannons/stalkers/sentries
the same MUST be true for the greedy 1/1/1 build, this is nothing else but the tech-equivalent to a fast expansion; fast expansion is greedy on the economy-side, 1/1/1 is greedy on the tech; another poster has explained this nicely, void rays are no stupid build that came up "by chance" because some protoss decides "hey, let's see what happens when I go void rays 1337..." - no, void rays were designed by very good players to punish 1/1/1; terran always assumed they were safe with a bunker at the front: now this is definitely not the case anymore;
whether void rays are flawed, can most certainly NOT be deducted from the issue that void rays are strong vs 1/1/1; maybe 1/1/1 will never hold vs void rays (although that's ridiculous, when terran spams turrets they are fine anyhow) - still, this would just mean that terran had to abandon 1/1/1; nothing wrong about that UNLESS it would mean, that protoss is stronger against EVERY OTHER strategy terran can throw at them; seeing how TvP has slowly shifted in favour of terran this seems very strange to believe....to say the least
I agree, terran should not be forced to play 3rax, this would be stupid because very inflexible; nevertheless there are TONS of other openings available to terran, many of them less effective vs robo-play than pure/greedy 1/1/1 but much more safe vs void rays;
a) 2 rax reactor first: demuslims standard opening, can lead to the very dangerous marine/banshee/raven timing but also allows for flexible transitions into MMM if protoss eg. goes tech-heavy (aka stargate and TC of one base to counter banshees); seen it work on pro-level numerous times
b) 1/1/1 supported with 2 turrets directly up the ramp; void rays can't break this: turrets are not there to kill but to buy time for vikings; if void rays shoot at turrets they shoot at nothing else instead; the turrets must be placed a little bit back so that void rays can not shoot at them without exposing them to marines (very critical, otherwise charged rays will just pick them up without taking much damage); you will lose your bunker, you will lose at least one turret, but this "should" allow you to get one viking out and the other one in construction; vikings can kite void rays indefinitely, I've seen on viking kill two pre-charged void rays because they just wouldn't get a shot off
c) 1/1/1 with one viking "blind" - admittedly compromises the effectiveness of 1/1/1; but then again I don't see how this could screw up 1/1/1 altogether; it destroys the effectiveness of the hellion drop, but hey, who said that hellion drop should always be safe? it's damn strong as it is; now you'll say one viking will achieve nothing? true: nevertheless you can use the viking to scout for proxy-pylons/etc. ASAP - if there's nothing in the area, then there won't be a pre-charge any time soon; the reason is very simple: the frickin probe needs ages to get to your ramp, if there simply is no probe then there won't be a pylon;
also scouting for armies/probes is undervalued in this thread, again because of the meta-game: this scouting can be very easily achieved on delta quadrant and xel naga: once you control the tower(s) there are few ways a probe or units can take to get to your ramp; if your tower-control gets challanged by a strangely small warpgate-force without any robo-support, you MUST get suspicious because of the meta-game aspect - WHY...just why on earth would any protoss player in his right mind move out with his gateway army at THIS point in the game, when the risk of drops is extremely high? and potentially game ending?
a protoss-player will simply NEVER move out in the mid-game unless (!) he has immortals; immortals allow for strong pushes vs small MM-numbers - but without immortals protoss is toast in mid-game; everyone knows this; therefore, what is a gateway-only force doing in the middle of the map in midgame? he has no business being there, unless something fishy is going on; I'd suggest you watch especially those pro-reps (or your own games) where protoss goes for robo-builds and observe the army-movement of protoss until colossi or early immortals are out: well - in 90% of the matches there simply is none!
the other 10% of the protoss-players are obviously keen on getting their probes roasted vs hellion-drops, because no protoss in his right mind would try to pressure with gateway-only vs 1/1/1
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EPT
