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About me: linko.266 on NA. ~2000 pt diamond Terran for whatever it's worth. Was #9 (in Blizz top 200) on NA at one point before I stopped laddering as much. I also play Toss the side so I do understand their mechanics and timings semi-well.
I don't normally complain, but I think Void Rays are flawed against Terran. I'm not saying they are overpowered, but just flawed in design.
The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Basically their build is Gate, Gas, Cyber, Gas, Stargate, Gate, Gate. They will attack with 3 VRs and about 10 stalkers, and maybe a sentry and zealot or two. They will build a pylon outside your ramp if there aren't rocks nearby to pre-charge up on. Once charged, VRs become the most cost effective unit in the game.
If you walled in (to stop 10pylon 10gates), you will lose your wall guaranteed since the stalkers/VR will come in at an angle where your bio can't all fire.
The only way I know how to survive this build is either a one-base 3-rax bio with a focus on marines or one base with 2-3 bunkers or one base 1/1/1 with Viking first out of starport. All three of those options are terrible against standard (non-stargate) play, so you usually don't want to just do it blind.
I think this design just makes T v P into a big build order poker because of the difficulty of scouting this.
Sample replays (just to show how to execute it from Toss side): GAME 1, GAME 2 This Toss player's build could be even more refined/deadly by adding a sentry for Guardian shield and macroing a little bit better. Yes, I could have microed better, etc.
My possible Solution #1: Let VRs charge up faster than they do now, but lose charge every time they switch targets.
Possible solution #2: Give VRs a heafty bonus damage to massive-type instead of armored-type (like corrupters).
Possible solution #3: Do not allow VRs to charge on friendly or neutral buildings/units.
This way, they are a proper counter to Collossi, Thors, BCs, Carriers, etc. I think it'll be very beneficial to the stale P v P matchup where the Collossi rules all.
Poll: Void rays need a change in their charge mechanic?Yes, their charge mechanic should be adjusted (844) 50% No need to change, they are perfect (844) 50% 1688 total votes Your vote: Void rays need a change in their charge mechanic? (Vote): Yes, their charge mechanic should be adjusted
(Vote): No need to change, they are perfect
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There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming.
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On October 09 2010 14:27 arterian wrote:
There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming.
That's true, but anything that's VERY DIFFICULT to scout shouldn't be so difficult to counter (ideally). I think all such builds are bad for a RTS because of the huge luck factor.
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Impossible to stop if you don't scout, you mean ? Do a safer build if you're losing to this often. Throw a scan if you don't know what your opponent is doing.
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On October 09 2010 14:38 Wolf wrote:
Impossible to stop if you don't scout, you mean ? Do a safer build if you're losing to this often. Throw a scan if you don't know what your opponent is doing.
They will hide the stargate in some remote corner of the map. Scanning will only put you way behind and see nothing. The only way to (possibly) scout it is to make a reaper and have it visit all 4 corners of the world and in every nook of their main too and pray stalkers don't find you during your trip.
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3 gate stalker? really?
also, there is no reason why you shouldn't at least see stalkers building up. Stargate might be build somewhere else to hide it yes, but when you scout and see pure stalkers, you should be worried, because as we all know, no one goes pure stalkers.
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My main annoyance with void rays is that they seem like a unit intended to kill big scary units -- battlecruisers, colossi, brood lords and the like -- and they really don't do that job well at all. As I see it, PvP is a colossus fest because protoss air doesn't effectively shoot down colossi like terran and zerg air do.
In terms of void rays wrecking face when you don't see them coming, applying pressure on the protoss front should tell you when something fishy is happening.
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Do you have any replays available that shows possible imbalance? I'm having a hard time seeing this work as flawlessly as you claim.
What exactly is your response to the build if you know it is coming, and what makes it so much harder to scout than any other build?
The vast majority of VR complains come from low end players, which is why I'm a bit shocked hearing this coming from a high end player. Unfortunately you don't give much input besides "3 void rays are cost effective and pillage my women and rape my cattle." Even your poll seems quite biased in it's wording.
EDIT: There also are only 16 US server 2000+ terran players, and half are pros. Pretty sure 2000 is pretty damn high to the point that it actually "means something."
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This game is still really young in terms of strats. I am sure in early Brood War that there were builds that seemed not "counterable" or unstoppable. But i think that something will develop sooner or later as everyone starts to understand the game a little bit more and high level creativity start to develop more.
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Calgary25963 Posts
You haven't proven your point. You've just said "They do this and it's impossible to stop".
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2000 diamond still having trouble against proxy stargates.
thats the point of building a proxy stargate. if they cant find it they reap the rewards.
its like me building a proxy starport and going banshee cloaked cheese. if i win does that mean banshees design is flawed. or is it because it was a risky flip of the coin strat.
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A build that is open, can transition into other builds, and if not seen a mile away you almost always will lose or take heavy losses? Weird every time I hear arguments like that I hear "zerg is fine L2Ps scrub"
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On October 09 2010 14:50 Chill wrote:
You haven't proven your point. You've just said "They do this and it's impossible to stop".
It's not impossible to stop. But it does require certain (very unideal) builds to stop.
I'm talking about top level toss players who pull a very well refined version of this build. The key is that they PRECHARGE the void rays and position their stalkers well, something that low level Toss players cannot do and low level Terrans have not experienced against.
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Wait wait wait. Wait. Terrans have scans. O SHI-
User was warned for this post
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On October 09 2010 14:52 TyrantPotato wrote:
2000 diamond still having trouble against proxy stargates.
thats the point of building a proxy stargate. if they cant find it they reap the rewards.
its like me building a proxy starport and going banshee cloaked cheese. if i win does that mean banshees design is flawed. or is it because it was a risky flip of the coin strat.
It's not really the same thing at all.
Proxy stargate forces T to produce vikings. Cloak banshees dumps 200 gas into a dead-end tech if P has observers (and they almost always will) and it doesn't really force anything except a couple mineral-only cannons.
Thus, one is a gamble while the other has at least a guaranteed return - forcing T to make vikings.
Also, the value of the gamble is pretty dramatically skewed in P's favor. If the cloak banshee strat pays off, P loses mining time while boosting an obs or tossing down cannons. If the VR strategy pays off, you autowin the game as your VRs destroy the T base in seconds. The risk/reward continuum is dramatically different.
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Just about all of me wants to scream troll at this point.
Please support your argument with a replay. Your thread has no purpose besides informing us all that there is a build so far above our heads that is impossible to stop... and we can't possibly understand it because we're all scum.
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On October 09 2010 15:00 yoshinori wrote:
Wait wait wait. Wait. Terrans have scans. O SHI-
That's probably the most ignorant post i've seen on this forums. Scan doesn't give vision of the whole map to the Terran player.
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On October 09 2010 14:44 Agenda42 wrote:
In terms of void rays wrecking face when you don't see them coming, applying pressure on the protoss front should tell you when something fishy is happening.
The problem with applying early pressure is that the toss can hold off your early attack by staying on top of their ramp until their warpgates finish researching. After warpgates are done, it's the Terran's turn to hide on top of their ramp until bioball critical mass is reached. If you watch top level T v P, pressure only happens before wargate research is complete, then the Terran goes back to cowering in his base. You won't see anything unusual with early pressure.
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I've always said that Voids should powerup quicker, but lose charge changing targets. (I posted on this just last week on SC2GDF) Instead as it stands, its a gimmick unit. If it charges fully now, it is the best unit vs every unit in the game. There have been games where I simply let the Protoss have my entire base because he snuck a half dozen voids in, they got charged, and my entire army couldn't counter them. I know a lot of people who play Protoss love this functionality. But the way Blizzard designed them was to counter BC/Carrier.
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Where are they getting all this gas/how early is this push hitting? Seems like you should be able to have a metric asston of bio by then if you went bio and just open up your wall and push out and blow it sky high in the middle of the map with some pretty standard M&M+stim (normal build for TVP anyway), rather than waiting at your ramp for them to push at you with pre-charged void rays. Heck, void rays are terrible against marines, even when they're charged. 10 damage per tick isn't that bad. Against armored, they DESTROY, though.
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Funnily, because of its current mechanics allowing for the charge to roll-over after the first target is dead, the void ray loses its design function. Like ^ said it was designed to beat big units. Rather than giving voidrays extra damage to massive they gave them the charge and by allowing the charge to carry over they've basically given Protoss a unit that when utilized to its full potential would give you a unit that has 1.) advantage of being air
2.) fairly robust
3.) insane amounts of damage to all unit types
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I saw this one very entertaining PvP in the GSL (I believe it was sanZenith vs oGsInca), both players used void rays to great effect by charging them up on their own buildings and using their own units to juggle the charge to the opponents base (I believe if you time it right juggling doesn't do any damage to your own units). I would hate to see that play taken away, and I don't feel void rays are broken enough against Terran to justify it.
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On October 09 2010 15:20 Pfhor wrote:
I saw this one very entertaining PvP in the GSL (I believe it was Zenith vs Inca), both players used void rays to great effect by charging them up on their own buildings and using their own units to juggle the charge to the opponents base. I would hate to see that play taken away, and I don't feel void rays are broken enough against Terran to justify it.
Void rays alone are not broken. You could void ray rush the shit out of any decent T and we won't complain as its relatively easy to defend. The problem is when your better than average toss figures out that he can attack the terran with both void rays and gateway units early on exactly when the terran isn't great at defending either forces. 3 rax+stim is a viable way to beat this but you're still going to lose a few buildings at your choke and maybe a refinery or so. It's a hard build to deal with, not impossible.. but definitely very hard. I've never won vs any toss doing this btw. 
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I absolutely agree with the OP. Voidrays are just insanely strong when charged, and attacking together with a solid ground army makes them incredibly hard to stop.
At first I thought that the charge should drop after switching a target or two... but perhaps a time limit would be better. Maybe a full charge could last 10-15 seconds, or whatever's appropriate.
I'm honestly surprised that void ray strats like this aren't used more in high level play... I can only assume that the pros have more effective ways to deal with voidrays than us mere mortals, and that maybe it is balanced after all. I can't see it though.
Anyway, I very seriously doubt Blizzard would change the voidray at this point.
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Void rays are hardly a counter to battle cruisers or thors at all, as if they start attacking uncharged they will get beat down so hard its not even funny, as they are made of the finest protoss paper mache. Thus they NEED the ability to keep charge between targets. They have been through a constant nerf gauntlet since beta, they are fine as is.
If you scan the protoss base and see only 2-3 gateways and no robo, you should assume hidden stargate and definitely be considering making more marines or vikings. 2 or so well placed turrets, with your engineering bay which you should be getting anyway, are also a good investment.
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I disagree with your argument that it's too difficult to scout and therefore too difficult to counter. Maybe you just need to adjust your build to always be wary of this.
I fail to see how this is any different from a Protoss versus a Terran. I can't see what they're building, they can be doing something cheesy like fast banshees, and I pretty much have to sit in my base because if you are just doing a MMM ball I'm going to get rolled unless I tech up.
Why not post some replays or something? Maybe it is incredibly overpowered and we just can't see. But we need some evidence first.
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your suggested change to charge mechanic will ruin void rays in pvt, it will make marines do awesome against them
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I've always thought that the charge mechanic in void rays is very gimmicky. As it stands, if they are uncharged, they are not very good units, but once charged they are very strong units.
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On October 09 2010 14:50 Chill wrote:
You haven't proven your point. You've just said "They do this and it's impossible to stop".
Pretty much this, as I started adding in a lot of marines after the ~4 initial Marauders, I haven't had any problems with a proxy Void Ray unless the map was a broken pos like Desert Oasis.
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I would be a decent fix to this if buildings weren't armored, while at the same time being a fix for marauder damage against buildings.
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Do you have any replays to post? I'd love to see a good voidray strategy in PvT! 
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Panama169 Posts
as link0 said if you know its coming its not hard to stop since you can 3 rax, but sacrificing and going 3 rax every game will just make you go all in every game not knowing what hes doing, personally i think T has to expo and going 3 rax and massing bio isnt going to help you expo since you somehow have to attack if the protoss didnt go void rays
not sure if i explained myself
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I agree with the OP. I think that void rays should charge faster but lose charge switching targets. This would make them better in standing armies but worse at desssssssssstroying a base that didnt know they were coming. The counter arguement is you should always prepare enough for a few voids not to be an autolose. But I think voids could and should be changed.
Any unit that you can just mass is annoying.
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Toss player here. I think the mechanic should be adjusted, but not to the solution that you've provided. I wouldn't mind seeing a faster charge with a lower max damage output. They just feel like such a huge commitment and are not consistently effective, when banshees and mutas are more versatile.
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I agree with Linko.
I'm not sure about your solution though. From one point of view it seems really good, because then void rays will be good against stuff with lots of health, bad against stuff with little health.
But on the other hand it will make micro'ing voidrays impossible
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I don't necessarily doubt some of what the OP is saying, but I'd love to see some replays of what he's talking about, win or lose (from high level players)
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you shouldnt have to prepare for just one unit so you don't autolose when it comes around.
edit: i'm not sure about the losing charge thing, that would make VR so much weaker now, but they are too sick when fully charged imo.
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It's been said before - it's incredibly hard to help you with no rep... All the people agreeing with you can be having problems with voidrays for all sorts of different reasons. And the people disagreeing can never have seen the specific strat.
I rarely lose to VR's, when i go:
rax --> 2 marines --> reactor --> second rax(tech lab) --> fac--> Port --> raven --> switch techlab port to reactor fac.
maybe a bunker early
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Void rays are pretty dangerous for bio heavy terran who focuses on marauders, which seems to be what 95% of terran do.
Haven't had problems with them against marine/banshee though, which is sweet.
I'd prefer if void rays charged up twice as fast, but lost their charges whenever they swap targets, they're pretty idiotically designed, they aren't anti-armor or anything, they just do disproportionate damage as long as you can pre-charge off one of the thousands of available methods.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/88468-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns#rd:undefined;markup
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i completely agree, i discovered this many months ago...
a strong void ray push IS UNSTOPPABLE without knowing its coming, and there really is no good way to know ahead of time.
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3 rax bio can hold it off. 1/1/1 can hold it off (granted you go viking first).
The only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build.
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I think this issue with voidrays also extrapolates into late-game PvT.
Especially when void-rays have speed, you can have sensor towers up, but even then they can fly in, charge up on buildings and become an unstoppable force in your base before you respond, even if you react immediately as soon as sensor tower detects it.
If voidrays are changed the way linko suggests it, then they will still kill buildings fast, but they won't be able to take out the entire army that's coming back to rescue the base if they lose charge while switching targets.
On the other hand, like I said before, a lot of micro potential of sustaining the charge will be thrown out of the game... Not sure what the best course of action here is.
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replay would help your argument.
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feel like the P is going for an anti rine/raven/banshee build... wouldn't blame him. If you don't scout that you will be dead and its very common in high diamond.
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It's actually a lot easier to beat that with a rineravenbanshee build, it's the usual 2-3 rax heavy bio builds that get their teeth kicked in.
2 reactor barracks will prevent any funny business with his void rays, and he will have some problems with either the stalker/sentry count or detection if he goes this strat.
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didn't jimpo destroy adel when he went for this 3 wargate proxy void ray thing vs 2rax techlab + reactor mmmg opening?
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protoss player here:
voids are not OP. stimmed marines just eat them like a fat kid eating a cheeseburger.
also, may i emphasize the importance of scouting!
If you see your opponent rushing void rays or even if its a slow transition to them then there's a wonderful attack window where they are behind in the unit count because of their investment in those stargates.
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I wish for the love of god people would submit replays for pretty much every topic in the strategy section...especially if they're making some claim that a unit needs a nerf. Starcraft is such a complex game with so many variables that we really need to see exactly what you mean, and the only way to do that is via a video or a replay.
If I saw a replay maybe I would think: "crap that would be impossible to scout and adapt to from a standard build in time, as such I sincerely agree with the OP" or instead I might think: "No. I think this is do-able and doesn't warrant a balance change."
Currently I don't know what to think because I can't really accurately visualise what you're describing. Of course I have a rough idea, but imo it's not enough. Replays give an accuracy and legitimacy that written text can't have.
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Its easy to defend for any terran who is good. I just tried it vs LZgamer and even though I messed up with it, he defended it no problem with his units.
Lets face it, once that range nerf came in, void rays became a pretty weak unit vs marines. You really have to catch them off gaurd for them to be worth anything, or put them way in the back and hope your stalkers target the marines.. but with the SCV prioritizing attack bullshit, your stalkers act stupid and dont attack the marines (manually targetting 15+ marines with stalkers is not.. good)
The economic hit you take by going voidrays AND stalkers, is so significant that they should overwhelm you unit wise.. Not to mention if they go starport early, 2-3 vikings in the back +marines can take them all out no problem.
I normally only do this build vs 1000-1500 terrans who I know have macro/micro flaws, or maybe on Steppes of war since its so small.. any other terran, I know they will easily stop it. So if I lose doing this vs people like lzgamer, theres no reason you should lose to any protoss doing this assuming you really are 2000 like you say.
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On October 09 2010 17:14 Jaeger wrote:
didn't jimpo destroy adel when he went for this 3 wargate proxy void ray thing vs 2rax techlab + reactor mmmg opening?
yeah but adel microd it very poorly if this was the game on xel naga. im pretty sure he killed one of his own stalkers. the key to its success is the terran being walled up on his ramp so he cant fire effectively on you, and you can do some damage to his production or whatever while getting a good angle to fire on him.
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This thread is a microcosm of what's wrong with the TL sc2 section. For starters the OP mentioned his points and rank which makes him sound like a douche. Second he talks about balance in a game that has already had one balance patch and will have another before Christmas, in a changing game balance is all subjective. He then proceeds to talk about how invincible this build is, people no build is "invincible" if part of this build involves them building a pylon outside your ramp then why Didnt you scout the pylon. If you're not scouting your immediate base area a hundred other builds become unbeatable because you didn't scout them. The third sin this OP committed was not including a replay. Seriously I have no idea what he's talking about half the time so I have to assume which makes an ass out of u and me. The fourth and final mistake is offering a balance solution when he already said he wasn't talking about balance seriously just read your own op before you post. Finally one last thing that I hate (not a real big deal just a pet peeve) he includes a worthless poll.
Edited for spelling
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On October 09 2010 16:48 PhiliBiRD wrote:
i completely agree, i discovered this many months ago...
a strong void ray push IS UNSTOPPABLE without knowing its coming, and there really is no good way to know ahead of time.
It's easy to defend against even with 1rax FE that I do every game, how is it more difficult with another build? Unless you try to like... mech vs Protoss.
On October 09 2010 16:49 MayorITC wrote:
3 rax bio can hold it off. 1/1/1 can hold it off (granted you go viking first).
The only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build.
I must be missing something obvious because after 1rax FE I have like 8 marines with stim nearly done when the first void ray comes and it's easy to delay until you have stim, after which it's almost a free win.
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On October 09 2010 17:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 16:48 PhiliBiRD wrote:
i completely agree, i discovered this many months ago...
a strong void ray push IS UNSTOPPABLE without knowing its coming, and there really is no good way to know ahead of time. It's easy to defend against even with 1rax FE that I do every game, how is it more difficult with another build? Unless you try to like... mech vs Protoss. Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 16:49 MayorITC wrote:
3 rax bio can hold it off. 1/1/1 can hold it off (granted you go viking first).
The only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build. I must be missing something obvious because after 1rax FE I have like 8 marines with stim nearly done when the first void ray comes and it's easy to delay until you have stim, after which it's almost a free win.
Did you read the OP? He's not talking about a void ray rush, he's talking about a push with a handful of void rays and stalkers at the front.
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On October 09 2010 17:30 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 17:24 Shikyo wrote:On October 09 2010 16:48 PhiliBiRD wrote:
i completely agree, i discovered this many months ago...
a strong void ray push IS UNSTOPPABLE without knowing its coming, and there really is no good way to know ahead of time. It's easy to defend against even with 1rax FE that I do every game, how is it more difficult with another build? Unless you try to like... mech vs Protoss. On October 09 2010 16:49 MayorITC wrote:
3 rax bio can hold it off. 1/1/1 can hold it off (granted you go viking first).
The only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build. I must be missing something obvious because after 1rax FE I have like 8 marines with stim nearly done when the first void ray comes and it's easy to delay until you have stim, after which it's almost a free win. Did you read the OP? He's not talking about a void ray rush, he's talking about a push with a handful of void rays and stalkers at the front.
People started talking about proxy void rays afterwards though... I've actually encountered this build twice on Desert Oasis, but my standard MM army won with nothing but a-move... it actually works?
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On October 09 2010 17:31 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 17:30 PanzerKing wrote:On October 09 2010 17:24 Shikyo wrote:On October 09 2010 16:48 PhiliBiRD wrote:
i completely agree, i discovered this many months ago...
a strong void ray push IS UNSTOPPABLE without knowing its coming, and there really is no good way to know ahead of time. It's easy to defend against even with 1rax FE that I do every game, how is it more difficult with another build? Unless you try to like... mech vs Protoss. On October 09 2010 16:49 MayorITC wrote:
3 rax bio can hold it off. 1/1/1 can hold it off (granted you go viking first).
The only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build. I must be missing something obvious because after 1rax FE I have like 8 marines with stim nearly done when the first void ray comes and it's easy to delay until you have stim, after which it's almost a free win. Did you read the OP? He's not talking about a void ray rush, he's talking about a push with a handful of void rays and stalkers at the front. People started talking about proxy void rays afterwards though... I've actually encountered this build twice on Desert Oasis, but my standard MM army won with nothing but a-move... it actually works?
WERE THE VOID RAYS PRE-CHARGED? Because if you A-move against that, you won't win. Twice now you've been called out for not reading the OP. Maybe you should just read the OP?
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This is the exact reason y i NEVER wall on steppes of war even tho it seems risky not doing so.
Voidray charge on ur natural + easy walk to ur wall and GG ;/
sucks alot... it FORCES u to go a super heavy marine build early
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Jesus Christ, learn to scout.
Get a reaper from your first tech lab rax and scout all the proxy locations (if you are any good you will do this anyway because of possible DTs), then sacrifice the reaper into their base and if you STILL dont know whats coming scan the parts of their base your reaper didnt get to see.
If you play a decent BO you will have either a lot of bio or viking-tech close to done and can prepare for the all in.
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I see a lot of people either saying that they easily hold this off or it doesn't work. I have heard players like I think Jinro? and some others say that this strat, if not overpowered is at least extremely difficult much like how zerg players were complaining about reapers.
Since most people here arent at 2000 diamond, have you considered this strat becomes exponentially stronger at higher levels? I know I found reapers easy to deal with but that doesnt mean the strat isnt overpowered at pro level.
This thread is an example to me at least of why we need some kind of higher level forum. Low ranked diamonds such as myself will have no idea whether this is imbalanced because their opponents will not have the positioning, the smarter hiding of stargate, the micro to keep the void charge up etc. This thread has no capacity for input by lesser skilled players as far as i can tell.
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On October 09 2010 17:22 KaoReal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 17:14 Jaeger wrote:
didn't jimpo destroy adel when he went for this 3 wargate proxy void ray thing vs 2rax techlab + reactor mmmg opening? yeah but adel microd it very poorly if this was the game on xel naga. im pretty sure he killed one of his own stalkers. the key to its success is the terran being walled up on his ramp so he cant fire effectively on you, and you can do some damage to his production or whatever while getting a good angle to fire on him.
It was on kulas ravine
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I've tried similar builds and it's very risky. It can work alright at around 8 minutes. What you do is run up with stalkers and zealots so you can kite the marines with your void rays. Good luck getting him to stand and fight while you have charged void rays of course.
However after that the terran bio ball will include marauders with concussive shells and stim, at which point they will kite your stalkers and the stim marines+viking micro can finish off the void rays.
I think the OP just sucks at stutter step micro. If you're really having trouble, just build a turret at your choke. then laugh as you dance around the one turret that kills all the void rays that aren't targeting it.
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Rays designed exactly for this in early game but if u fail in micro u simply loose.
Even if u don't scout in 3v3 rays can destroy whole bases with bad simcity simply u cant do anything and terran souldnt be QQ about i cant scout.
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i can't say anything about OP unstoppable strats,
but i like the idea of voids charging faster but losing charge when switching targets.
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Which of the top 130 (2000pt +) are you? Why don't you post replay? All other 2000pt Terrans don't seem to share your problem. Please submit a solution that doesn't involve a huge nerf or change to the VRs function(s) in the game. Your suggestion handles the so called "imbalance" you speak of but it also removes one of few ways for P to harrass T early, I simply don't think that's an balanced change at all..
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Two sample replays uploaded. There are a million factors why I wasn't able to hold off the rush, and how I could have changed my b.o. to be able to hold it. The replays merely show how the rush is properly executed by Toss.
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I have done this build a lot lately, but wouldnt not walling in solve the issue?
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On October 09 2010 20:21 Sakkosekken wrote:
I have done this build a lot lately, but wouldnt not walling in solve the issue?
A lot of top Toss players do a 10pylon 10 gate to chrono out 2 zealots rallyed into your base. You WILL lose scvs if you don't wall. I see top korean terrans lose scvs to this rush all the time.
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Hi linko. first of all, why would you ever think posting something like this on TL would solve your problem? the sheer fact people are calling out your ranking and bming your connotation speaks volumes. if you were a 1600~ diamond who even decently keeps up with the scene you would know who linko is.
yeah this strat is hell on scrap, where they can charge on the destructible rocks. the best suggestion i have is to open 3 rax, and use your 2nd mule to scan. if you see robo grab an expo or do whatever standard build. if you see no robo and they have 2 gas, mass up and bunk down until you can find what they're up to.or open 3 rax on maps like scrap and steppes and on LT, delta, do whatever you like.
umm yeah it, its a really strong strat, especially if u dont see it coming, but 3 rax --> scout --> expand wont put you far behind as you are making it out to be. hell even if u see no robo put like mass bunks then cloak banshee
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there's nothing wrong with this bo.
Terran can do the same thing with raven tank marine push. It's 100% unstoppable if the terran does it right and protoss goes a traditional build.
as for scouting, that's also bull. you'll need to get better at it. Terran is the one race that is virtually impossible to properly scout, I have no idea why you would claim this for protoss.
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If this is really unstoppable, another solution would be to make VRs not be able to charge up their lasers on their own units. I've always had a feeling that that was unintended anyway.
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Have u considered not walling off ? If you are worried abt early pressure you can always throw up a bunker a bit away from the ramp. 10 gate chrono zealot doesnt seem like a problem with good building placement and depots so ur marines can run around the mineral patches all day. 10 gate is also pretty bad for P's eco.. not dramatically bad but it wont pay for itself like an early rax early orbital command.
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You didn't lose cause of void rays. You lost cause the Protoss had a significantly larger army size than you because you attempted to tech and expand at the same time in both games. Then factor in that the Protoss player had a better army composition in both games and it's no surprise that you lost.
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
On October 09 2010 14:59 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:50 Chill wrote:
You haven't proven your point. You've just said "They do this and it's impossible to stop". It's not impossible to stop. But it does require certain (very unideal) builds to stop. I'm talking about top level toss players who pull a very well refined version of this build. The key is that they PRECHARGE the void rays and position their stalkers well, something that low level Toss players cannot do and low level Terrans have not experienced against.
Hmm but what do you say about the multiple terran openings that dictate the pace of the MU? It's pretty much the same thing. 3gate-Void is pretty much the only PvT opening capable of dictating early game tempo, terran has many more, And you said it yourself that its very counterable. I dont get where you're getting at, this is what protoss has been dealing with vs terran forever :/
Edit: Void Rays are as designed flaw as the Banshee, if I open anything other than robo I will die.
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On October 09 2010 20:51 MayorITC wrote:
You didn't lose cause of void rays. You lost cause the Protoss had a significantly larger army size than you because you attempted to tech and expand at the same time in both games. Then factor in that the Protoss player had a better army composition in both games and it's no surprise that you lost.
Those games weren't there to show what B.O. I could have used to stop the attack. Of course I know how to stop it if I knew it was coming. They were uploaded only to show what the Toss build was for those who didn't understand what I was talking about in the OP.
As to answer your point, against any other build, building a command center inside your main while you have 1 tech and 1 reactor rax pumping MM /w stim and shields + 1 bunker is enough to defend against most 1-base builds.
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On October 09 2010 20:53 SwaY- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:59 link0 wrote:On October 09 2010 14:50 Chill wrote:
You haven't proven your point. You've just said "They do this and it's impossible to stop". It's not impossible to stop. But it does require certain (very unideal) builds to stop. I'm talking about top level toss players who pull a very well refined version of this build. The key is that they PRECHARGE the void rays and position their stalkers well, something that low level Toss players cannot do and low level Terrans have not experienced against. Hmm but what do you say about the multiple terran openings that dictate the pace of the MU? It's pretty much the same thing. 3gate-Void is pretty much the only PvT opening capable of dictating early game tempo, terran has many more, And you said it yourself that its very counterable. I dont get where you're getting at, this is what protoss has been dealing with vs terran forever :/ Edit: Void Rays are as designed flaw as the Banshee, if I open anything other than robo I will die.
No, there is a difference. Because gate, robo, gate is a very flexible Toss bo that allows you to deal with pretty much any opening Terran throws at you, without setting yourself back economically (There is a good reason why it's the most common high level Toss opening). One-base 3 rax (all with add-ons) will smash 3gate+VR, but is weak against the majority of other Toss builds (there is a good reason why this ISN'T a common high level Terran opening). That's the difference.
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On October 09 2010 19:40 Majk wrote:
All other 2000pt Terrans don't seem to share your problem.
Jinro posted yesterday about this strat and said its very strong and hard to stop without previous scouting.
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This strat is crazy good on short rush distance maps like steppes where you have to wall in or face early zealot pressure and lose some scvs. If you wall in, well u die to pre-charged void rays+3 warp gate all in. Void rays kill stuff too quick and even if u can hold it off somehow, its really difficult to deal with a warp gate all in follow up without taking a huge eco hit, if not outright losing.
Void rays are pretty redic even when compared to DTs and banshees because there really is no reliable answer to charged void rays+gateway in the early game unless u go some sort of marine heavy 1 base all in.
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You guys are being way too critical of the op and missing out on a potentially good discussion.
I do a very similar build as Protoss and I have to say it is alarmingly effective. I have to agree that there is a small window of time where it is unbelievably difficult for the Terran to deal with regardless of unit composition. The window occurs when the Protoss has 5-6 stalkers, one void ray, and one sentry. The numbers don't have to be exact just in my experience this is the earliest and smallest group that gives the Terran no options except to sit at the top of their ramp.
Yes of course Terran can do all in marauders or mass marines with scvs, but I believe linko is referring to standard (safe) builds most people are doing.
Bottom line: I win most of my PvT games with this opening. If the Terran walls their front I win guaranteed unless I micro poorly. Either way I am provided with a critical window to expand and tech at the Terrans expense.
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even though im not 2k diamond i have to wonder why you played so passive instead of pushing with infantry, one marine up the ramp and you will see the size of the ground army and then decide to push or retreat
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Void Rays are the most fun mechanic in the game, and early game they are really simple to shut down if you know they are comming. They are so idiotically slow, that shutting them down is np at all.
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Concussive shell on cooldown first, then fuck up void ray as much as you want.
User was warned for this post
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The first replay rather undermines the argument as the terran player rejects a clear opportunity to move up the ramp after the force field wears off. That would have allowed them to do significant damage and scout the stargate. Instead they blindly expand and tech and get hit with a timing attack of 2x their army value. Also their army control is horrible.
I've seen similar builds executed on Gisado and they're definitely something that terran players have to consider, but I'm not convinced that it's harder to counter than a banshee/marine timing push.
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On October 09 2010 15:37 LtLolburger wrote:
Void rays are hardly a counter to battle cruisers or thors at all, as if they start attacking uncharged they will get beat down so hard its not even funny, as they are made of the finest protoss paper mache. Thus they NEED the ability to keep charge between targets. They have been through a constant nerf gauntlet since beta, they are fine as is.
If you scan the protoss base and see only 2-3 gateways and no robo, you should assume hidden stargate and definitely be considering making more marines or vikings. 2 or so well placed turrets, with your engineering bay which you should be getting anyway, are also a good investment.
lolwut, Voids beats Thors 1:1 and thors are a tad more expensive.
Why do you immediately assume stargate if you don't see the robo with your scan? scan area is big, but hardly the wholemap. What if you missed that robo with the scan, assumed stargate, and immortals came knocking? Turrets are gonna do shit-all against Voids (unless spammed like in gold league). Voids only have 1 less range than turrets pre-upgrade. There'll WILL be places in your base Voids can charge up on. Also, don't 4get Void rays are air, thus will negate any high ground advantage you have when they attack with stalkers (also longer range than marines).
@OP, I think back in early stages of alpha/beta void rays DID lose charge if target died. However, I think blizzard thought that made it too niche and micro intensive lol. I also remember the Terran QQ back in beta, which prompted the -1 range haha, I didn't mind because I was a Z player =D
Lol in 200/200 battles, Voids beats everything i'm pretty sure, no matter what combo you have.
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Tester vs Hopetorture, tester opened with void rays. Why would he do that? Because its worth risking because it is an balance design issue. Banshee opening doesn't outright win you games. Watch the blizzcon games for KR. Nex genius done void ray opening and won against maka prime. Same deal.
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It's very hard to hold, indeed. You need at least 3 bunkers or more, because everything goes so fast down. After several tries I managed to hold it against my friend, but with a lot of effort. Very strong build!
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from what i have seen on pro level yet convinced me that T has the acting and P has the reacting role in this matchup so the terran should be able to see the robo or the stargate when pushing
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really no offense, but protoss has exactly ONE build terran needs to scout/adapt towards and this is void rays
I can't believe that I'm writing this considering the OP is 2k diamond, but the reason why protoss opens with robo is that protoss HAS to know exactly what terran is doing, otherwise protoss just dies against the sheer variety of different terran-strats that all require different responses
protoss is 90% reactionary in PvT, has to scout what terran goes for and then adapt; fast void rays is the ONLY build where protoss can be outright aggressive and where terran needs to scout/adapt to prevent getting killed....and we discuss balance; really?
it comes down to this:
terran goes for marine/banshee/raven - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for hellion drop - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for fast battlecruiser - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for mass-marines no gas - unscouted = dead protoss (yes, even this we have seen in GSL)
and finally the core problem:
terran goes for fast cloaked banshees - no robo early = dead protoss
protoss goes for void ray/gateway - unscouted = dead terran
protoss goes for....wait...that's it
there is really no other build from protoss that will insta-kill a terran who opens "standard" and doesn't adapt towards a specific timing-push
yes, void rays are 100% win for protoss if unscouted, and rightly so; considering the many more timing-pushes terran can throw at protoss which also give terran a near 100% win when unscouted, is it really so much to ask that terran must have to specifically scout for this?
notice that I'm in no way challenging the skill of the OP - I know that he is a much better player than I am and probably will ever be; still the point remains that it seems really weird to complain about the only timing push protoss really has against terran;
I understand that the OP doesn't say this build is overpowered but just flawed in design; still I disagree strongly, because the threat of void rays is really something that is highly needed for the meta-game of PvT;
seriously, no protoss would open robo if there weren't the threat of cloaked banshees; therefore yes, the fear of void rays hampers the effectiveness of terran because they have to scout and "guess" if there "could" be void rays incoming; same goes for protoss who are forced to pretty much open with observers to just not die which severely weakens the protoss tech possilibities; without cloaked banshees I would go fast twilight council each and every game, expand after I have chargelots/immortals/sentry and go towards templars
so terran has to adapt their builds too...just to account for the potential threat of void rays; this is really needed, otherwise terran could feel completely safe to open with basicly everything they please
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yeah voidrays are deadly, but zerg is even more vulnerable to them than terran. I mean at least T has anti-air tier 1 unit, where zerg only has queens. But sorry I digress, I have to say i agree with your sentiment in any case.
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On October 09 2010 22:27 sleepingdog wrote:
terran goes for marine/banshee/raven - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for hellion drop - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for fast battlecruiser - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for mass-marines no gas - unscouted = dead protoss (yes, even this we have seen in GSL)
and finally the core problem:
terran goes for fast cloaked banshees - no robo early = dead protoss
all of this builds are countered by 2gate robo
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this build seems only viable if the terran is in his base?
without immortals there are marauder/marine pushes who will kill you or at least reveal that you have voidrays cause you need them for defending..
also a fast banshee cloak build will hit before the protoss push?
this build gives you no observer = no scout ability
so its basically an allin.
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On October 09 2010 22:37 Cashout wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 22:27 sleepingdog wrote:
terran goes for marine/banshee/raven - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for hellion drop - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for fast battlecruiser - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for mass-marines no gas - unscouted = dead protoss (yes, even this we have seen in GSL)
and finally the core problem:
terran goes for fast cloaked banshees - no robo early = dead protoss
all of this builds get countered by 2gate robo
not only is this a bad post, but you're not even right. if you want to be wrong fine but at least offer something to the discussion.
i agree though, there are multiple ways the terran player has to basically end the game immediately if the protoss player doesn't defend it very well. if any of you guys watched fenix vs kiwikaki game 2 yesterday:
+ Show Spoiler +you saw a really good example of this. fenix opened blue flame hellions, this would have ended the game immediately if kiwikaki didn't defend it so well. after that failed to do any damage at all he just expanded anyway and then went for cloaked banshees. this also ends the game immediately if the protoss doesn't scout/prepare for it well. after doing no damage with the banshees he took his third and won the game anyway, but the point is that at least from my perspective, the game seems a lot safer as a terran player. i'm not calling the MU imbalanced or anything, i just think protoss has so many ways to lose without scouting something early so i find this entire thread kind of funny.
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Disregarding the particular build presented here, I do believe that the void rays have a design flaw. Conseptually they are designed for a counter to the capital ships of your opponent, or other huge targets, and maybe even buildings. But as the current system works they are just too damn good against smaller light targets.Combined with the ability to pre-charge before combat, they are currently a too great general-purpose warship, which I don't believe it was intended to be used as (the carrier should fill the role as the general-purpose warship).
Yes I am fully aware of TL members loving the micro potential this ship gives (even after removing fazing). And they probably are balanced as there are no unbeatable builds including this unit. My point is however that from a narrative point, this unit is completely broken and fills an entirely different role than the original concept would say that it should.
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
On October 09 2010 22:27 sleepingdog wrote:
really no offense, but protoss has exactly ONE build terran needs to scout/adapt towards and this is void rays
I can't believe that I'm writing this considering the OP is 2k diamond, but the reason why protoss opens with robo is that protoss HAS to know exactly what terran is doing, otherwise protoss just dies against the sheer variety of different terran-strats that all require different responses
protoss is 90% reactionary in PvT, has to scout what terran goes for and then adapt; fast void rays is the ONLY build where protoss can be outright aggressive and where terran needs to scout/adapt to prevent getting killed....and we discuss balance; really?
it comes down to this:
terran goes for marine/banshee/raven - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for hellion drop - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for fast battlecruiser - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for mass-marines no gas - unscouted = dead protoss (yes, even this we have seen in GSL)
and finally the core problem:
terran goes for fast cloaked banshees - no robo early = dead protoss
protoss goes for void ray/gateway - unscouted = dead terran
protoss goes for....wait...that's it
there is really no other build from protoss that will insta-kill a terran who opens "standard" and doesn't adapt towards a specific timing-push
yes, void rays are 100% win for protoss if unscouted, and rightly so; considering the many more timing-pushes terran can throw at protoss which also give terran a near 100% win when unscouted, is it really so much to ask that terran must have to specifically scout for this?
notice that I'm in no way challenging the skill of the OP - I know that he is a much better player than I am and probably will ever be; still the point remains that it seems really weird to complain about the only timing push protoss really has against terran;
I understand that the OP doesn't say this build is overpowered but just flawed in design; still I disagree strongly, because the threat of void rays is really something that is highly needed for the meta-game of PvT;
seriously, no protoss would open robo if there weren't the threat of cloaked banshees; therefore yes, the fear of void rays hampers the effectiveness of terran because they have to scout and "guess" if there "could" be void rays incoming; same goes for protoss who are forced to pretty much open with observers to just not die which severely weakens the protoss tech possilibities; without cloaked banshees I would go fast twilight council each and every game, expand after I have chargelots/immortals/sentry and go towards templars
so terran has to adapt their builds too...just to account for the potential threat of void rays; this is really needed, otherwise terran could feel completely safe to open with basicly everything they please
tyvm exactly what I was trying to say in my previous point but you illustrate it perfectly. The key in this argument guys comes down that its the only build protoss can surprise terran with.
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
On October 09 2010 22:32 5unrise wrote:
yeah voidrays are deadly, but zerg is even more vulnerable to them than terran. I mean at least T has anti-air tier 1 unit, where zerg only has queens. But sorry I digress, I have to say i agree with your sentiment in any case.
I dont think so, Zerg just needs an extra queen to deal with fast voids. its very bad build against Zerg IMO...
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On October 09 2010 22:15 tournamentnow wrote:
Tester vs Hopetorture, tester opened with void rays. Why would he do that? Because its worth risking because it is an balance design issue. Banshee opening doesn't outright win you games. Watch the blizzcon games for KR. Nex genius done void ray opening and won against maka prime. Same deal.
so because a pro opened in this way one time (and lost the game anyway) thats reason to believe the unit is imbalanced? maybe robotics facility openings are imbalanced because thats what you see in the huge majority of pvt games.
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They aren't unstoppable, they are just badly designed.
If they were just imba then that could be fixed just by tweaking the numbers, the bad design is what warrants a rework.
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i completely agree with OP. have been having the same trouble myself, i havent won once against this build on ladder(1.7k~ diamond).
obviously alot of people here do not know what they are talking about, the thing is with this toss build there is no hard counter to it, and it allows you to transition to other builds easily or at a very low cost, while giving you a very high percentage of winning the game right there.
i dont think toss is OP but i've always thought of void rays as broken. even its unit info says 'aircraft designed to take out large units' or something along that line. and under its attack info 'attack damage increases the longer it stays on target'. these make me certain that void rays were meant to only charge up on single targets and lose their charge when changing targets. of course a buff to the vr's chargetime should be made if the mechanic were to be changed.
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Voids are pretty much useless in midgame, that's my main quibble with them.
Early you can get them in if he's not expecting them and do damage.
Late with a flock of speed voids, you can break the terran contain and harass at will.
Mid, eh....... Maybe i'm just not good enough, but to me they're pretty worthless.
Unlike terran units which are just pretty darn good anytime.
Banshee, hellion, good at harass, good at doing the damage you need when you need.
MMM, brutal.
Ghosts, EMP, snipe, bonus damage to light.
Eh.....
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On October 09 2010 22:37 Cashout wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 22:27 sleepingdog wrote:
terran goes for marine/banshee/raven - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for hellion drop - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for fast battlecruiser - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for mass-marines no gas - unscouted = dead protoss (yes, even this we have seen in GSL)
and finally the core problem:
terran goes for fast cloaked banshees - no robo early = dead protoss
all of this builds are countered by 2gate robo
the reason toss go robo is they NEED an observer to scout terran and adapt.
toss MUST scout then counter terran - this happens so toss DOESNT DIE, even though terran loses their army they will just expand and bunker up and still be safe in the game..
TvP is almost always in the terrans hands to decide how the toss will play..
its much more rare to see a toss sit in their base without robo and macro an army of their choice
but almost always you see thats what the terran does
now this void with gate support allows toss to apply pressure to a T as bunkers + repair is unbreakable, now terran complains?
marines deal with voids pretty well, note that even though voids do decent damage to marines when charged - voids require a great amount of teching compared to MARINES... the first unit a terran can build.
edit; oh yeah sleepingdog says this very well..
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On October 09 2010 22:47 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 22:37 Cashout wrote:On October 09 2010 22:27 sleepingdog wrote:
terran goes for marine/banshee/raven - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for hellion drop - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for fast battlecruiser - unscouted = dead protoss
terran goes for mass-marines no gas - unscouted = dead protoss (yes, even this we have seen in GSL)
and finally the core problem:
terran goes for fast cloaked banshees - no robo early = dead protoss
all of this builds get countered by 2gate robo not only is this a bad post, but you're not even right. if you want to be wrong fine but at least offer something to the discussion. i agree though, there are multiple ways the terran player has to basically end the game immediately if the protoss player doesn't defend it very well. if any of you guys watched fenix vs kiwikaki game 2 yesterday: + Show Spoiler +you saw a really good example of this. fenix opened blue flame hellions, this would have ended the game immediately if kiwikaki didn't defend it so well. after that failed to do any damage at all he just expanded anyway and then went for cloaked banshees. this also ends the game immediately if the protoss doesn't scout/prepare for it well. after doing no damage with the banshees he took his third and won the game anyway, but the point is that at least from my perspective, the game seems a lot safer as a terran player. i'm not calling the MU imbalanced or anything, i just think protoss has so many ways to lose without scouting something early so i find this entire thread kind of funny.
fast robo -> obs provides enough intelligence to counter any build terran throws at you, its definatelly safest and most flexible pvt build.
3gats + void ray is only counterable if u know in advance its comming and thats pretty much impossible unless u are very lucky or have some kind of 6th sense, preparing for vr rush everygame puts u way behind any other "normal" P build.
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Void Rays are especially problematic in large games (2v2, 3v3, 4v4). A large enough force of VRs becomes almost unstoppable. A team with one player going Void Rays can be particularly dangerous because as soon as a big battle occurs that player will be destroying a base. Once they're fully charged and in critical mass, it would take the forces of all players to destroy them.
A good solution would be to make the prismatic beam a research item. That would slow down any timing attack with VRs by half a minute.
The best solution would be to change their damage from + vs armored to + vs massive. I always figured that that attack was to kill BCs and Thors, since Protoss doesn't really have a unit that excels in that role.
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On October 09 2010 23:04 mGMUSE wrote:
obviously alot of people here do not know what they are talking about, the thing is with this toss build there is no hard counter to it, and it allows you to transition to other builds easily or at a very low cost, while giving you a very high percentage of winning the game right there.
insert "marine/banshee/raven" and you have it exactly the other way round - also wins many games instantly and allows for a shit-load of viable transitions
I can only speak for myself, but I've pretty much seen all high level protoss-reps that are available from www.sc2rep.com, www.gosugamers.net, sc2rep.net, www.sc2replayed.com, www.sc2win.com, star2.gamechosun.co.kr, http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2, http://rts-sanctuary.com, www.sc2-replays.net and watched all protoss-vods that can be found on http://sc2casts.com/
therefore I think I've got a pretty good idea what void ray play on high level PvT looks like; I've seen it insta-win many times and I've seen it fail many times; it can be played as classic all-in or can be played more harassment-like while expanding (which tester tried to do but what was countered by the FE from ITR); the transitions is much harder than the transition terran can do when doing its timing pushes because you have no robo - meaning you are too steps (robo + bay) and not only one step away from a useful transition into standard play
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link0, I agree with you that it is hard to stop. A few things I usually do:
-Build a proxy barrack and use it to scout his base. Timing is so important in TvP (as you surely know) so its always useful, lasts lomnger, and cheaper than a scan. In addition he gotta show his army if he want to get rid of the barrrack.
-If I see something missing in his base, I always put up an engeneering bay asap and build a turret + a bunker close to my choke (most likely void rays or dt incoming). I will suggest you think about your bunker placement. In replay 1 it is to close to choke imho. In addition I tech to starport slightly faster than normal and make a viking. In case you spot mass stalkers you can go for a raven later.
- Also force him to use more force fields early game than is the case in replay 1. He will be forced to warp in more sentries = less gas for vr.
Just my 5 cents...
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Why is Void Rays so difficult to scout then?
Reapers and scans are pretty good for scouting i think. When you think about it kinda feels that it's actually very easy for terran to scout compared to other races.
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How does a fucking marauder spammer (terran) complain about void ray?? How the fuck can you complain????
Youre all idiots for complaining about the void ray
User was temp banned for this post.
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So much crap being spread everywhere in this thread.
As another high level diamond player (1950 top 70 NA) I have to agree with OP here, take my opinion combined with my rating however you please. As has been stated, a lot of you idiots didn't even take the time to read the OP.
When you play against a high level diamond Toss, this build is hard to see coming and nearly impossible to stop. When they micro properly and come in precharged, any outside buildings you have are going to get absolutely fried. Then your marines are going to get fried. There is no real timing window for T aggression because the fact of the matter is even off of this build which goes 1 gate to stargate then adds gates 2 and 3 after, you still don't have enough marine/marauder to bust up a ramp with stalkers looking down on you. Even if you somehow make it through, you're going to end up in a base trade situation at best.
I think that the solution is one that link0 outlined: voids lose their charge when switching targets but build it up much faster. So yes, they now suck royally vs marines, but isn't that kind of how it should be? There are PLENTY of other units in the Protoss arsenal that do great against marines. I mean come on, we're talking about the fucking marine. With this change, they are now a viable counter to colossus, BC, carrier ETC, AND they still take down buildings extremely effectively.
And to everyone talking about auto losses for Protoss when facing such and such a build, 1 or even 2 gate robo prepares adequately for almost all of them.
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I agree with OP. Void Rays aren't bad. they do very well at holding early pressure, and they are great harassers. Their problem lies with the fact that the charge mechanics are so unreliable.
They do great in your opponents base, but in any other battle situation they suck. Thus, past bronze play, I don't build very many, simply because they don't do well in regular combat. Like siege tanks only much much worse. Then there is the problem with countering with them. supposedly, they are a good response to Carriers, Motherships, Battlecrusiers, Collosi, and Corrupters. yeah right. again, they only do well if they find something to charge on before the battle starts, which if used defensively, either means you have insane guessing skills, or really good scouting, which is nulled if they decided to stall an attack. On top of that, they are terrible in open fields.
I agree that something needs to be changed. they are only good if your opponent isn't prepared for it, and after that point, they become dead weights. However, I think that the suggested changes would be too much.
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On October 09 2010 23:27 Cashout wrote:
fast robo -> obs provides enough intelligence to counter any build terran throws at you, its definatelly safest and most flexible pvt build.
3gats + void ray is only counterable if u know in advance its comming and thats pretty much impossible unless u are very lucky or have some kind of 6th sense, preparing for vr rush everygame puts u way behind any other "normal" P build.
it's called "scan" - it costs 50 OC-energy
observers force protoss to sink 250/150 into getting some useful scouting information; how on earth could you argue that protoss can be much more flexible, when they are forced to waste 250/150 early just to know what units/buildings they should "actually" get? the only reason why protoss transitions into colossi is because they simply can't get robotics AND templar-tech off one base
and you call this flexible....
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Just as i read this, i dl some recent korean TvP Gon vs Iron, you can see how strong the voidray push is, even if its scouted. However it also shows how to deal with it after the initial push.
I thing its really a good example of problems that might occur doing this strategy
Replay link :
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/1951
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I actually kind of liked the suggestion about changing the damage +armored to +massive. Not because I see something broken about the Void Ray but because it could, as you said, potentially make the PvP matchup more interesting and not just a Collossus race. Maybe.
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I'm pretty confused after watching your replays...
In game 1 like others have said, it was clear you should have tried going up the ramp again after FF wore off. This is coming from myself as a protoss player, trust me when I say that if a toss forcefields beyond the bottom of the ramp so you can't see up at all, without trapping any of your units inside, it's because he is scared shitless of your unit count and he's trying to buy any amount of time that he can to stay alive, even if it only becomes by a thread. Hell, even if you had only rallied your units to his ramp you would have been able to contain his entire ground army. You let him walk across the map to get his ground army by the rocks which were by his VR's which is the reason you lost that.
In game 2, I think his push was actually a lot stronger, but you had a raven long before he got to your ramp with stalkers. What stopped you from throwing down a PDD to stop the stalkers from killing the marines? Wouldn't that have let you focus fire down the VR with the marines and thor?
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On October 09 2010 23:40 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 23:27 Cashout wrote:
fast robo -> obs provides enough intelligence to counter any build terran throws at you, its definatelly safest and most flexible pvt build.
3gats + void ray is only counterable if u know in advance its comming and thats pretty much impossible unless u are very lucky or have some kind of 6th sense, preparing for vr rush everygame puts u way behind any other "normal" P build.
it's called "scan" - it costs 50 OC-energy observers force protoss to sink 250/150 into getting some useful scouting information; how on earth could you argue that protoss can be much more flexible, when they are forced to waste 250/150 early just to know what units/buildings they should "actually" get? the only reason why protoss transitions into colossi is because they simply can't get robotics AND templar-tech off one base and you call this flexible....
u know robo also provides immortals and colo which are perfect counter to the most of early terrans army composition, even in bw P always went robo then switched to other tech it always has been like that i dont see why thats an issue.
ps. no scan doesnt solve the problem, its PROXY void ray.
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On October 09 2010 23:37 lizzuma wrote:
When they micro properly and come in precharged, any outside buildings you have are going to get absolutely fried. Then your marines are going to get fried.
this is why high-level terrans don't build outside buildings?
And to everyone talking about auto losses for Protoss when facing such and such a build, 1 or even 2 gate robo prepares adequately for almost all of them.
reactor first, 2nd baracks/techlab before factory for stim prepares adequately against void rays; no more free concussive-marauder-kills but far away from being a bad opening against standard robo play
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Just watched the first replay. Gonna try out that strat PvT now! 
Now I don't know about this, but what if you left a scout by the destructable rocks? Or just generally out in front of your base at a range where a toss could reasonably keep the charge from without accidentally nuking his own army. When the push came, you had a reasonable number of rines and rauders and you had stim. What if you pushed out of your base when you saw the army + rays, stimmed up and nuked his ground army before the rays got a chance to charge up? If the toss has no ground army, he can't keep the charge up into your base, which negates the push.
I reckon if you had that prewarning by leaving the scout out, your stimmed MM would destroy his gateway units fast enough that the rays would be rendered moot. I'd try it and see but I need to reformat my PC due to BSODs :<
<-- high plat random
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Build order advantages will always exist in every match up in every RTS.
I mean, is this a discussion on how to beat this build? Or a discussion on there being no cost effective response? Or a discussion on how it's rock paper scissors?
You can liken this build to 12 nexus in BW PvT. Protoss comes out ahead if Terran doesn't do a blind all in counter, but that's just the nature of RTS. Sounds like you'll just have to be at a deficit when playing against this opening with certain strategies.
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why u did not throw a pdd on second game i'll never understand, the game was yours if u did,
as for first game u had improper scouting info, after the ff u ran back, u assume u were still fine and didnt require additional info. Watch high skill comp level gsl, mgl esl u name it, all terrans use scan, they use scan specifically when they tried an early push but got ffed to deny info
Basically vrays isn't OP you probably never got vraid before so you weren't used. I'm suprise u say you have semi well knowledge of toss coz ill say again
first game improper scout info
second game pdd and win
overall when see u vray rush, stick to w/e strat u had switch barracks into reactor pump rines. If your strat was already heavy ground then marine + stim + bunker should hold well enough, focus on vray first doesn't matter if stalker still alive, u can easily make maurauders after. vrays take a long time to cross over map, so he'll have to stick to stalker/zeal, both can be kited by rauders.
It's like when terrans know I'm going robo into collis and they do crazy 5-6 rax stuff trying to end game earlier b4 i hit my collis. Sure i'll take dmg, sure he's into my base but if the dude doesn't know what to focus i'll just have to suffer a bit of lost till I get my collis.
Watch how many times huk 1 base and still won, even when people are inside his base. So it's the same deal with vrays.
If you already went 1/1/1 then that raven pdd would save you, if u scouted properly u could have vikings instead of banshee like that 2nd game
IMO, I have to deal with rine/banshee/raven timing push I dont qq and say banshee or raven need nerf or is flawed. It's perfectly fine as it is. You just have to leanr to deal with it, same thing should go for you and the vrays.
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On October 09 2010 23:56 Piy wrote:
Build order advantages will always exist in every match up in every RTS.
I mean, is this a discussion on how to beat this build? Or a discussion on there being no cost effective response? Or a discussion on how it's rock paper scissors?
You can liken this build to 12 nexus in BW PvT. Protoss comes out ahead if Terran doesn't do a blind all in counter, but that's just the nature of RTS. Sounds like you'll just have to be at a deficit when playing against this opening with certain strategies.
The problem is that 12 Nexus was a high risk high reward strategy, while the 3 gate VR build is relatively low risk with an extremely high upside (most times results in game over, not just a simple economy advantage)
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On October 09 2010 23:56 Piy wrote:
I mean, is this a discussion on how to beat this build? Or a discussion on there being no cost effective response? Or a discussion on how it's rock paper scissors?
in fact it's a discussion whether or not protoss should be allowed to have a timing-attack-build vs terran that destroys terran when they don't scout it - which is quite funny if you think about it
all terran have to do is open either with reactor or go for fast vikings which counter both void rays and colossi; the argument that it's rock-paper-scissors is really ridiculous considering that terran can get basicly every unit very fast when they open 1/1/1; the only build that doesn't allow an easy adjustment is a fast expand - but wtf, should terran be allowed to safely fast expand against every build out there by default now?
On October 10 2010 00:00 lizzuma wrote:
while the 3 gate VR build is relatively low risk
plz explain to me how an all-in or a harassment-BO that is really hard to transition out of is "relatively low risk"?
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Im sure the cauthon luck 2 marauder 1 marine 1 reaper opening can see this coming, atleast on some maps/positions.
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It's relatively low risk because with a good proxy location and timing, it is nearly impossible to stop. And why can't you transition out of it? It's not like you're cutting probes, you've got 3 warp gates..I mean this attack will at least usually do heavy damage. It isn't a harassment build at all, it's designed to kill.
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On October 09 2010 23:56 Woozyman wrote:
second game pdd and win
[/i][/b]
The VRs can shoot it down in seconds.
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On October 10 2010 00:10 lizzuma wrote:
It isn't a harassment build at all, it's designed to kill.
I've got a rep from tester where he uses to void rays to distract his opponent on scrap station while throwing up a "relatively" fast expansion
even if its proxied it's nowhere near unstoppable because you can get intel from what you "not" see - 3 gate and no robo and "relatively" few units? definitely void rays;
as I said, I've seen it getting beaten quite comfortably by reactor openings too - of course this means no early concussive-harass, but isn't his basicly what meta-game is all about
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Btw I am guessing most haven't checked out the replays? He isn't proxying his stargate there at all. Neato strat but it feels like if you do manage to stop it you'll be nicely ahead. Not allin ahead but still ahead.
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Its funny how most people here have actualy no idea what this rush really is and just post nonsense from gold leauge. If protoss is really commiting with a 100% chronoboost on 2 voidrays and support from 3 wg and probe cut its not ''easely'' stopped. Fully charged voidrays with a sentry to decrease marine dps and a dickton of stalkers is serious buisness and it hits fast really fast. If you open just 2 rax even with reactor first your are going to get raped really unless you somehow have the time to make atleast 2 bunkers. Saw it yesterday once more as demu got smashed with a 2 rax with fast reactor and it was a non contest really.
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Most horrible unit in the game. I hate them. I see 3 or more and I shit myself.
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On October 10 2010 00:17 sleepingdog wrote:
I've got a rep from tester where he uses to void rays to distract his opponent on scrap station while throwing up a "relatively" fast expansion
even if its proxied it's nowhere near unstoppable because you can get intel from what you "not" see - 3 gate and no robo and "relatively" few units? definitely void rays;
as I said, I've seen it getting beaten quite comfortably by reactor openings too - of course this means no early concussive-harass, but isn't his basicly what meta-game is all about
Tester never liked void rays too much. I remember from an Artosis video back in the day when voids had range of 7, tester (playing T for fun) would say "thank you" when he sees voids.
This just sounds like the T's who got so used to "I can do whatever I want." Now zerg and protoss started to develop some solid builds "its a design flaw."
The whole Terran race was a "design flaw" if u look at it that way. What about put ur heads together to come up with a solution?
Hey what about this? you micro everything so well that voids lose their charge? Impossible? Is it more impossible than dodging EMP's? That was the solution you, Terrans, came up for the protoss players. Oh and L2P. The rest of us got that a lot alrdy. And i have a feeling its T's turn now.
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On October 09 2010 16:49 MayorITC wrote:
3 rax bio can hold it off. 1/1/1 can hold it off (granted you go viking first).
The only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build.
3 rax bio is probably the worst build ever. It gives you loads of units early on that can't do any pushing. It fits perfectly into what OP described as builds that yeah, survive against this but is terrible versus everything else. And because you can't really scout the proxy stargate reliably, you can't rely on it being scouted either.
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You also cant possibly afford 3 gate stalkers plus void rays. You need to be on 2 bases for that, even if you cut probes
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Sure, a few T players want a voidray nerf, everyone's for it.
A couple of Protoss suggest an EMP or marauder nerf, everyone has hissy-fit
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On October 10 2010 00:34 cive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 00:17 sleepingdog wrote:
I've got a rep from tester where he uses to void rays to distract his opponent on scrap station while throwing up a "relatively" fast expansion
even if its proxied it's nowhere near unstoppable because you can get intel from what you "not" see - 3 gate and no robo and "relatively" few units? definitely void rays;
as I said, I've seen it getting beaten quite comfortably by reactor openings too - of course this means no early concussive-harass, but isn't his basicly what meta-game is all about Tester never liked void rays too much. I remember from an Artosis video back in the day when voids had range of 7, tester (playing T for fun) would say "thank you" when he sees voids. This just sounds like the T's who got so used to "I can do whatever I want." Now zerg and protoss started to develop some solid builds "its a design flaw." The whole Terran race was a "design flaw" if u look at it that way. What about put ur heads together to come up with a solution? Hey what about this? you micro everything so well that voids lose their charge? Impossible? Is it more impossible than dodging EMP's? That was the solution you, Terrans, came up for the protoss players. Oh and L2P. The rest of us got that a lot alrdy. And i have a feeling its T's turn now.
Did you actually take time to read, with attention to detail, the good posts in this thread? This is the most utterly retarded piece of shit of a post I have ever seen. You DO realize that void rays can attack while moving right? There is no way to out micro void rays so that they lose their charge once they are in your base with the current charge mechanics. Spreading HT, yes, is FAR easier than trying to "out micro" void rays. I'd really love to hear your suggestion on it.
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Linko makes a thread saying stopping the build takes extreme undesirable measures.
Every protoss player tries this build, with mixed or great results.
Terran players around the globe look for the solution.
Someone finds one.
Find them through Reps, Build order history, vods, or tournies.
Profit!
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United Arab Emirates660 Posts
I honestly think that void rays are very balanced... i mean like the above poster said... you cant get 3 gate stalkers and void rays on 1 base...
But yeah mate, nerf Protoss more... We didn't get enough nerfs in the last 20 patches or so =/!.
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I like the Idea of changing the Void Ray as a unit. It feels to gimmicky and useless without the charge-up ability. What I don't like at all is that your suggestion removes not only this specific "all in strat" it also nerf the hell out of Void Rays as harass unit, and it's not like Toss got plenty of early harass options vs Terran. With your suggested change it will almost be effortless to defend vs VR-harass. If you could come up with any Idea to nerf this specific strat without taking away the power as harass-unit I would agree, but I doubt that's possible...
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On October 10 2010 00:34 cive wrote:
This just sounds like the T's who got so used to "I can do whatever I want." Now zerg and protoss started to develop some solid builds "its a design flaw."
the thing is, if it "were" unstoppable, then we could discuss imbalance - but it's not; this is why we see void rays practicly always being done as proxy cheese; if protoss plays void rays "openly" (meaning he builds stargate near his warpgates and shows his first void ray together with the rest of his units when T pokes in) then I've seen T win at about 60-70% rate;
then it all comes down to T not being used to the thought that there is one build out there that will kill them if they don't scout correctly, make minor mistakes and don't react 100% correctly; nevertheless this is what zerg has been put up with pre 1.1 reapers and protoss with marine/banshee/raven all the time; T seriously has to take a step back and look at the easy time they have scouting-wise against protoss and zerg in 90% of the cases; because in these 90% protoss will play 2 gate robo colossi and zerg will play muta blingling infestor basicly always; having to put up with void rays in one out of ten matches (this is approximately the ratio I see them in high level reps) seems nothing in comparison to the huge range of terran timing attacks that insta kill protoss
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Easy just scout their base you have scans and Protoss don't wall off against Terran. ALSO unless your going mech (which few do) then your are either going mmm ball and with the huge amount of resources going to stargate-voidray they will have a much smaller army. The protoss VR build punishes mass marauders that is why i personally use it so much because 60% of terrans will go mm . the best way to counter is good scouting, early pushing with mm, or going 1/1/1
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On October 10 2010 01:05 lizzuma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 00:34 cive wrote:On October 10 2010 00:17 sleepingdog wrote:
I've got a rep from tester where he uses to void rays to distract his opponent on scrap station while throwing up a "relatively" fast expansion
even if its proxied it's nowhere near unstoppable because you can get intel from what you "not" see - 3 gate and no robo and "relatively" few units? definitely void rays;
as I said, I've seen it getting beaten quite comfortably by reactor openings too - of course this means no early concussive-harass, but isn't his basicly what meta-game is all about Tester never liked void rays too much. I remember from an Artosis video back in the day when voids had range of 7, tester (playing T for fun) would say "thank you" when he sees voids. This just sounds like the T's who got so used to "I can do whatever I want." Now zerg and protoss started to develop some solid builds "its a design flaw." The whole Terran race was a "design flaw" if u look at it that way. What about put ur heads together to come up with a solution? Hey what about this? you micro everything so well that voids lose their charge? Impossible? Is it more impossible than dodging EMP's? That was the solution you, Terrans, came up for the protoss players. Oh and L2P. The rest of us got that a lot alrdy. And i have a feeling its T's turn now. Did you actually take time to read, with attention to detail, the good posts in this thread? This is the most utterly retarded piece of shit of a post I have ever seen. You DO realize that void rays can attack while moving right? There is no way to out micro void rays so that they lose their charge once they are in your base with the current charge mechanics. Spreading HT, yes, is FAR easier than trying to "out micro" void rays. I'd really love to hear your suggestion on it.
Have you ever tried to spread you high templars and micro your zealots at the same time. All the while a MMM ball + 6 ghosts are just emp' left and right. High templars are so SLOW you can run away from a void ray if you have stim.
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I just did some simple timings, using the build u described.
did:
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
17 cyber
18 gas
25 Stargate
26 Gate
30 Gate (Produced 1 stalker and 1 sentry is in the production right now as well)
Stargate finishes at 30, at the next 150 gas went to a VR (Could've been 10-15 seconds sooner but felt safer going stalker/sentry/stalker instead of stalker-->zealot-->X)
The "timing push" with 3 VR's comes around the 9:10 minute mark (Tested on blistering sands, on smaller maps obviously cut off 10-20 seconds depending on rush distance). Timing included a pylon+charge.
EDIT: If you wanna focus on getting the 3 VR's as fast as possible, your gateway force will be smaller by a few units, and you could probably squeak out the VR's about 30 seconds earlier, your choice though.
My method for production, stock the 150 gas, make VR then warp in as many stalkers as i could while it builds then restock the gas, so i wasnt producing VR's for ~10-15 seconds in between them, i would have to see their timing for VR's to really make judgement
Once the pylon finished i warped in 3 stalkers outside the base and then charged (with 3 VR's you can charge without killing the pylon for future warping, just fyi).
The push comes with:
13 stalkers
3 VRs
1 sentry.
You can vary the timing slightly by doing stalker/zealot composition and skip the sentry. but any early aggression ur basically boned if u dont make a sentry.
BTW this is done without cutting probes, i did my best to keep my probe production the same as with other strats and had roughly 34 probes at the 9:10 push mark, after you start the push you can afford to expand (warp in one less stalker and you would have your 400 minerals).
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for the people that don't know what they're talking about...
It's not "hard to stop." If you do not scout it 100% - you automatically lose the game to x3 voids x3 gates.
And they can put the stargate anywhere on the map to accumulate the x3 voids before they move out into your wall - assuming you walled.
I've played people on ladder before who I would consider 30 apm noobies, who have done this build, and then start building gateways/pylons in front of your base to pre-charge their voidrays for what feels like a freewin for them IF you didn't completely blindly start building vikings from a starport.
So basically, it's exactly like the OP said. The build has been out for a while, it's pretty ridiculous. Dumb people that are commenting about voids, or vikings, or other random shiot, re-read the OP - he's referring to a specific build protoss does where their starport is hidden, they build three warpgates, and once they have 3 void rays hit your base.
If you didn't start building vikings, you lose. If you went 3 rax like OP and others said, you're doing a blind all-in-ish counter, not to mention stimming your army and losing life.
It's builds like these that make SC2 shallow build order poker sometimes...yes, it's stoppable, but there's only so much you can prepare for each game. So...you prepare for it...they went FE!
It's ridiculous.
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On October 10 2010 01:35 justinsroy wrote:
The "timing push" with 3 VR's comes around the 9:10 minute mark (Tested on blistering sands, on smaller maps obviously cut off 10-20 seconds depending on rush distance). Timing included a pylon+charge.
at this point the terran can have ~24-26 marines with stim AND medivac-support; the void rays will die in split-seconds
the usual push (done eg by nexgenius) comes MUCH earlier, using only two void rays and a handful of stalkers; at this point terran neither has the critical mass of stimmed marines nor is the starport normally up yet (if it is it has just started producing)
On October 10 2010 01:46 avilo wrote:
It's builds like these that make SC2 shallow build order poker sometimes...yes, it's stoppable, but there's only so much you can prepare for each game. So...you prepare for it...they went FE!
It's ridiculous.
maybe I should really do void rays more, obviously many terrans can't handle situations where they have to "re"-act instead of just act
simply according to the QQ that's thrown around here which is much worse than in any zerg and protoss "how do I stop this particular timing from T"-thread
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On October 10 2010 01:46 avilo wrote:
So basically, it's exactly like the OP said. The build has been out for a while, it's pretty ridiculous. Dumb people that are commenting about voids, or vikings, or other random shiot, re-read the OP - he's referring to a specific build protoss does where their starport is hidden, they build three warpgates, and once they have 3 void rays hit your base.
except that's not what the OP said, the starport(edit: stargate i'm retarded) was not hidden in either game, it was in his base in a spot where you wouldn't be surprised to even see a gateway placed. the only reason he lost those games is because he was not pro-active about his scouting. of course if neither player scouts the map for anything and doesnt scout the opponents base one of them is going to lose to a 1-base all-in. there's a reason the pro protoss players never use a build like this in a tourney.
edit: now that i said that i don't think it's fair to change or modify it to match some other truths i just realized that i forgot about, so i'll just add it.
it has been done before, but almost never. if it was impossible to scout and counter then yeah, you'd probably see it all the time instead of like... once (i am thinking of hongun prime vs clide in the GSL)
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so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
User was temp banned for this post.
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This kind of rush come before 9.xx.
They usually have 2 void ray with an other one on the way.
And yes,
If you don't scout it (and you usually don't, or too late with sthg like a floating factory), you loose. Period.
If you scout it but
- went FE before you saw it => you loose
- went 1/1/1 without viking first => you loose
- marauder heavy ? => you loose
- walled off your base => you loose
- failed at microing vikings (and it's not that easy to micro them against ray) => you loose
- ...
The only way to win is going marines heavy + stim early (nobody do that because it sucks) or going bio heavy wth a few vikings and not missmicro not walling off. If you don't have enough viking your army will be dead before void ray die and you loose, if you missmicro you loose, and if you have too much vikings... well you loose aswell.
It's very hard to counter. When I play protoss and face a terran, that's the only strategy i'm doing it the current version \o/.
People who say it's easy to counter are either like super succesfull when playing tournament, lying, or both.
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The DPS-model of the Voidray is simply broken, compared to dps models of other units.
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On October 10 2010 01:57 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
there should be iq restriction on this forum
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On October 10 2010 01:47 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 01:35 justinsroy wrote:
The "timing push" with 3 VR's comes around the 9:10 minute mark (Tested on blistering sands, on smaller maps obviously cut off 10-20 seconds depending on rush distance). Timing included a pylon+charge. at this point the terran can have ~24-26 marines with stim AND medivac-support; the void rays will die in split-seconds the usual push (done eg by nexgenius) comes MUCH earlier, using only two void rays and a handful of stalkers; at this point terran neither has the critical mass of stimmed marines nor is the starport normally up yet (if it is it has just started producing) Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 01:46 avilo wrote:
It's builds like these that make SC2 shallow build order poker sometimes...yes, it's stoppable, but there's only so much you can prepare for each game. So...you prepare for it...they went FE!
It's ridiculous. maybe I should really do void rays more, obviously many terrans can't handle situations where they have to "re"-act instead of just act simply according to the QQ that's thrown around here which is much worse than in any zerg and protoss "how do I stop this particular timing from T"-thread
Re-read. It's not a "particular timing," and it's not QQing. It's a BUILD ORDER. A basic build order. There is no "reacting" - that's the entire damn point of this thread that just flew over your head and many others.
You cannot react unless you happened to scout the stargate in one of the 50 corners of the map while simultaneously not having that scout picked off by a stalker.
They execute a build order, you execute your build order, you see no stargate -> you do not start vikings -> you automatically lose.
You can build vikings completely blind, and you will blind counter the build. But it's like hitting the jackpot, because if they didn't do that build, they're probably FEing, or doing something else and you have vikings sitting around for nothing now.
Read before you try to comment like you're smart. There's no "particular timing." It's a basic build order.
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VR are nullified if you got a few vikings. Im a silver player and even i can kite to damage them. As terran getting vikings is a must no matter what you are facing.
Fighting zerg, if they dont go mutas is a great ovi sniper to force him to wastedrones/spend on AA. As T gets you air control to drop/kill his drops. Against P is the response to colossi. And if they dont go any of this units is still a a great unit to fly around to see hidden expas. With 2/3 you got a safe margin to fight.
Off course this is in silver/gold, maybe on diam/plat wasting on2/3 viks is not posible dont know, but on replays of good players you always see a few of them.
User was warned for this post
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On October 10 2010 02:00 ganil wrote:
This kind of rush come before 9.xx.
They usually have 2 void ray with an other one on the way.
And yes,
If you don't scout it (and you usually don't, or too late with sthg like a floating factory), you loose. Period.
If you scout it but
- went FE before you saw it => you loose
- went 1/1/1 without viking first => you loose
- marauder heavy ? => you loose
- walled off your base => you loose
- failed at microing vikings (and it's not that easy to micro them against ray) => you loose
- ...
The only way to win is going marines heavy + stim early (nobody do that because it sucks) or going bio heavy wth a few vikings and not missmicro not walling off. If you don't have enough viking your army will be dead before void ray die and you loose, if you missmicro you loose, and if you have too much vikings... well you loose aswell.
It's very hard to counter. When I play protoss and face a terran, that's the only strategy i'm doing it the current version \o/.
People who say it's easy to counter are either like super succesfull when playing tournament, lying, or both.
You can beat it with vikings, but you have to start making them early, or latest after your first raven or banshee. If you don't...you're dead.
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in a scenario where it's 1 ray vs 1 viking I'll never loose my viking but you have to micro your MM army aswell (or they'll die :p) and doing both at the same time is almost impossible.
edit: when I build vikings I usually don't have that much stuff on ground and end up being crushed unless I throw down a million bunker (and have even less army).
If the protoss come at the 1st ray and you built a raven, you loose too :p.
At this time I usually have sthg like 2 marauders and 6-7 marines and my raven wich isn't enough against 1 void ray and the protoss ground army.
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On October 10 2010 02:02 Akito wrote:
VR are nullified if you got a few vikings. Im a silver player and even i can kite to damage them. As terran getting vikings is a must no matter what you are facing.
Fighting zerg, if they dont go mutas is a great ovi sniper to force him to wastedrones/spend on AA. As T gets you air control to drop/kill his drops. Against P is the response to colossi. And if they dont go any of this units is still a a great unit to fly around to see hidden expas. With 2/3 you got a safe margin to fight.
Off course this is in silver/gold, maybe on diam/plat wasting on2/3 viks is not posible dont know, but on replays of good players you always see a few of them.
READ THE THREAD. FOR GODS SAKE!
What the hell is wrong with SC2 strategy posters. The thread is not about vikings > voids, or voids > vikings. Use your damn brain and reading comprehension!
Thread is about how hard this build is to scout, to the point that it's build order poker. No one gives a shit that vikings counter voids, or voids do so much damage.
The core idea here is that the stargate can be anywhere on the goddamn map, you as the terran have to somehow get an scv to 50 places on the map, without having it killed by a stalker, and then have the foresight to either completely blind build vikings, or happen to find the stargate through sheer scouting luck.
If you do not find it...and didn't pre-emptively build vikings...or didn't go 3 rax...you lose the game. Build order poker is awesome isn't it?
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On October 10 2010 02:05 ganil wrote:
in a scenario where it's 1 ray vs 1 viking I'll never loose my viking but you have to micro your MM army aswell (or they'll die :p) and doing both at the same time is almost impossible.
WOW. How many times do I have to post no one cares about void ray vs viking or any other simplistic unit interaction?
READ THE THREAD
On October 10 2010 02:00 Cashout wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 01:57 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
there should be iq restriction on this forum
I'm beginning to think this is necessary lmao
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On October 10 2010 02:06 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 02:05 ganil wrote:
in a scenario where it's 1 ray vs 1 viking I'll never loose my viking but you have to micro your MM army aswell (or they'll die :p) and doing both at the same time is almost impossible. WOW. How many times do I have to post no one cares about void ray vs viking or any other simplistic unit interaction? READ THE THREAD Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 02:00 Cashout wrote:On October 10 2010 01:57 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
there should be iq restriction on this forum I'm beginning to think this is necessary lmao
WOW, I was just answering to the previous guy and you turn berserk LOL.
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if you scout a stargate then go quick vikings??? Itslike if a protoss doesnt scout quick banashees and doesnt go robo to get obs its instant lose same as this build. Both can even be proxied.
Not scouted means lose for every race if its somethign direct, you can even try pushing out if you scout this as surely stalkers vs maruder will die and focus the vr's before they charge up with ur marines. You dont have to sit in ur base waiting. Early pressure them so they have to make more units then void rays.
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it seems pretty obvious that if you don't scout robotics or fast expand and he has 2-3 gateways that void rays are coming, this is not at all hard to scout
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This thread has had the greatest count of people not reading the thread out of anything on team liquid.
But to contribute to the discussion, how would changeing the charge affect the void ray? Most people tend to get it just for some proxy cheese, but their might be other uses I'm not aware of. I personally like the idea though, as if it charges up fast enough, it could be a bigger counter to those tier 3 behemoths like ultras and thors. I'm only a 1k diamond player though, so take this with a grain of salt.
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On October 10 2010 02:06 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 02:02 Akito wrote:
VR are nullified if you got a few vikings. Im a silver player and even i can kite to damage them. As terran getting vikings is a must no matter what you are facing.
Fighting zerg, if they dont go mutas is a great ovi sniper to force him to wastedrones/spend on AA. As T gets you air control to drop/kill his drops. Against P is the response to colossi. And if they dont go any of this units is still a a great unit to fly around to see hidden expas. With 2/3 you got a safe margin to fight.
Off course this is in silver/gold, maybe on diam/plat wasting on2/3 viks is not posible dont know, but on replays of good players you always see a few of them. READ THE THREAD. FOR GODS SAKE! What the hell is wrong with SC2 strategy posters. The thread is not about vikings > voids, or voids > vikings. Use your damn brain and reading comprehension! Thread is about how hard this build is to scout, to the point that it's build order poker. No one gives a shit that vikings counter voids, or voids do so much damage. The core idea here is that the stargate can be anywhere on the goddamn map, you as the terran have to somehow get an scv to 50 places on the map, without having it killed by a stalker, and then have the foresight to either completely blind build vikings, or happen to find the stargate through sheer scouting luck. If you do not find it...and didn't pre-emptively build vikings...or didn't go 3 rax...you lose the game. Build order poker is awesome isn't it?
And how is T being forced to get a few Vikings even though it may not be optimal vs. most P openings any different than P having to go robo vs. T every game, even though Twilight Council -> Templar Archives would be better vs. most T builds?
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On October 10 2010 01:57 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
Do you read threads or just post random bs commnents?
half the people on this thread have been saying you know, proxy, moved away from base, ect. Why the hell would a protoss put a stargate right next to there nexus/gateways.
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I think you really gotta catch the void's before they are charged up.. 2-3 charged voidrays simply kills alot of ****. Voidrays not charged on the other hand, will not do very much. So jump them while they are weak.. Kinda like if you'r P, you dont want to let a few siege tanks set up camp around your ramp..
Also this seems like more of an all in than 4gate.. Getting an expansion up so fast might not be the best option.. But i guess this all comes down to the scouting issues..
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It's hard to tell from your replays, because you made a lot of weird decisions:
Game 1: When you put early pressure on with marin/marauder, he had 1 sentry and 1 zealot. He FF'd and you ran away. When the FF died, the sentry didn't have enough energy to do another one. You could have easily walked up his ramp and killed him. GG.
Game 2: You tried a marine/banshee/raven build but failed to do the ONE thing that makes that kitschy build worthwhile: drop a PDD.
Early pressure is the key. Void rays are expensive units. He spent mins and gas on the stargate, and mins, gas, and chrono on the void rays. You HAVE to make the Protoss pay for that mistake. (Also, it wouldn't hurt for you to actually scout once in awhile.)
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And how is T being forced to get a few Vikings even though it may not be optimal vs. most P openings any different than P having to go robo vs. T every game, even though Twilight Council -> Templar Archives would be better vs. most T builds?
just make 2 vikings incase he goes voidrays and then die to DT or even 4gate wich looks 100% exactly similar to void ray tech aka 3 warpgates and 2 quick gasses. Oh and when protoss went 2gate/robo you have 2 useless vikings great. I thought TL once had a great rule in brood war thats called ''think before you post'' but I suppose that dont count on the SC2 forums.
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The core idea here is that the stargate can be anywhere on the goddamn map, you as the terran have to somehow get an scv to 50 places on the map, without having it killed by a stalker, and then have the foresight to either completely blind build vikings, or happen to find the stargate through sheer scouting luck.
It doesn't take luck.
I can pressure your front with units and/or scout with a scan, if you don't have the expected arrangement of units, I either: 1) win outright, or 2) get pushed back by FF and know that something fishy is going on. I can logically deduce that, for a Protoss, something fishy is a proxy stargate. And what comes out of proxy stargates? (A mistake occurs when the scouting player sees less than what is supposed to be there and then thinks, "I must be winning.")
If I neither scout nor pressure at all, then I would expect that the other player could do something against which I can not react in time to stop. That's good game design.
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On October 09 2010 19:40 Majk wrote:
...All other 2000pt Terrans don't seem to share your problem. ..
8th of October 2010, Alien Invasion Cup Finals. Final: aTnSocke vs mTwDeMusliM (THE top Terran in Europe). Socke wins 3-1, DeMusliM ggs the 4th game with a comment about Void Rays. Cannot remember the exact words. Just to debilitate your argument a little bit...
Edit: Socke went for 3 Void Rays on Scrap Station in the last game.
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if u goes VR, then u should save yur scvs so that u can build, and go attack his base. If u base trade with the toss, u will win because once his void rays aren't charged he gets killed by yur army. u complain about terran not being to scout against proxy voids but they can. u can tell just by the enemies' army comp. if they have a small army, they are ovbiously going dts or voids. this is nothing compared to zerg. think about how a zerg is supposed to scout a terran that is bunkered up? the only thing they can do in t1 is send lings to suicide up a ramp to see a tiny portion of the base.
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I base 3 rax focus on marines is a great generic opening that destroys anything protoss has. Add in ghosts and you're even more covered. Only problem comes when the toss turtles with sentries til they get colossus - in which case you can still tech and expand because you have map control.
User was warned for this post
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On October 10 2010 02:46 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +And how is T being forced to get a few Vikings even though it may not be optimal vs. most P openings any different than P having to go robo vs. T every game, even though Twilight Council -> Templar Archives would be better vs. most T builds? just make 2 vikings incase he goes voidrays and then die to DT or even 4gate wich looks 100% exactly similar to void ray tech aka 3 warpgates and 2 quick gasses. Oh and when protoss went 2gate/robo you have 2 useless vikings great. I thought TL once had a great rule in brood war thats called ''think before you post'' but I suppose that dont count on the SC2 forums.
If building two vikings somehow makes you lose to DT, then you royally suck.
Obviously, Vikings aren't good against any unit that Protoss really wants to build out of his Robotics Facility. There's no robotics unit that's a lynchpin to so many Protoss strategies that can be hit by anti-air. Nope. None at all.
4wpg is the only thing that might give you ANY trouble, but a bit of pressure on their ramp will clearly show 4wpg by unit count. Plus, warpgate units are so crappy vs. barracks units that you still shouldn't have any problems holding.
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avilo bro.. I hope you learned a valuable lesson today. When you post a discussion thread about a particular build and any potential unit balancing issues, silver league players will come out in droves to tell you that you're garbage and need to fix your game. This akito guy actually just broke down to you what vikings counter vs each race and how you're bad for not getting them early.
Anyways, to make this a constructive post, I play T and P around 1300 diamond and this strategy is becoming increasingly popular. It is very, very hard to stop. I've seen less stalkers and more zealots though.. with a few stalkers.. plus the void rays. In fact when properly executed I haven't won yet. Certainly not unbeatable, but if they're micro is at a high level the pre charged voids are a nightmare.
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Wasn't it not long ago that people complained about Terrans going Marine Banshee Raven pushes and winning easily etc etc. Give it time and people will start figuring out how to exploit this build or the timings.
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Here we go again.....
Protip: Banshee dps is just below a fully charged void ray.
Now I'm doing my best not to go off on a tangent, the main point is how signifying a single unit is more or less pointless to do unless it can be applied to EVERY scenario.
Also note that 1gate, stargate into 3 warpgate is EXTREMELY fragile, in which case you didn't scout properly or apply early pressure. Obviously once 3 gateways are completed with 2 Void rays out it becomes strong.
There are many appropriate responses that can be done to stop Void rays.
In my opinion walling off vs toss is a very bad choice (at least depot/rax wall in) Bunker(s) at your ramp are the best option. If you're paranoid about early zealots then get a fast reaper, doing early pressure as toss is a very big gamble since the increased zealot time makes it very difficult to make it worthwhile (i.e. pay for itself)
Seeing as core directly into robo is a highly preferred build that your scouting scv can actually see, that is one build you can safely cross off.
Also another tip: Look for the 3rd pylon. Honestly most good T players (not saying you aren't) will sac their scouting scv to see if the 3rd pylon is placed in their base.
depending on it's placement you can scan and more or less instantly know what hes going.
Or if you'd prefer you can always fly your factory into his main.
going out to lunch atm, may come back and edit this if I feel like it or if there is any good responses / discussion.
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Why are you not making ghosts?
Ghosts are effective against all protoss openings except maybe collosus, but even then you should be able to emp the army. Emp the void ray then hit it with marines and vikings. The same thing with stalkers. EMP takes off 50% health from a stalker and 40% health from a void ray and it's area of effect.
User was warned for this post
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think about it this way, void rays are a really risky tech tree. If you manage to hold it off you are at an advantage. (The protoss is 0% on their way to colossus/high temp).
And also normally people don't wait for 3 void rays (unless they proxied real close). Usually they attack at 2.
3 gates is also way too much. With good macro you can only support 2 gates pumping stalkers. A 3rd gate basically means semi- all-in and cutting probes (each void ray is 250/150 and u are probably chronoboosting it)
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marines, ghost
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On October 10 2010 03:08 LynxKerr wrote:
avilo bro.. I hope you learned a valuable lesson today. When you post a discussion thread about a particular build and any potential unit balancing issues, silver league players will come out in droves to tell you that you're garbage and need to fix your game. This akito guy actually just broke down to you what vikings counter vs each race and how you're bad for not getting them early.
Anyways, to make this a constructive post, I play T and P around 1300 diamond and this strategy is becoming increasingly popular. It is very, very hard to stop. I've seen less stalkers and more zealots though.. with a few stalkers.. plus the void rays. In fact when properly executed I haven't won yet. Certainly not unbeatable, but if they're micro is at a high level the pre charged voids are a nightmare.
Thanks for this post, you made me feel better about sc2 strategy forums. It's nice to see someone who actually read the OP ^^.
I personally find that it is MUCH harder to stop when they use zealots instead of stalkers. Zealots are pretty much unkillable if they are under sentry shield and even if I 3 rax and try to run by to shoot the voids, the zealots mow the marines down.
What they do is 15-16 zealots, 1 sentry and 3 voids. Turrets and bunkers are a waste since they evaporate under charged void rays.
I'm really thinking that voids should only be able to be charged on enemy units :\
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so basically
you want to break the voidray for PvT because you haven't found a way of countering it without knowing its coming?
tho i do like the idea of them only being able to charge up on enemy structures/units (would make it better imo ?)
User was warned for this post
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OP's suggestion would honestly make void rays completely broken. They would not be good for anything or anyone. They would be useless against massive units like battlecruisers and carriers, because you need that charge to stay if you want to deal maximum damage, otherwise it's a no go.
A better suggestion is a faster charge up, but the charge also disappears much faster. This means that people will simply have to have build smart if they suspect void rays, where buildings are so far apart that the void rays will loose their charge while switching target. This does not mean that the charge disappears between target switching, and micro'ing the void rays will still give rewards to those who bother to do it (as in, being able to keep the charge up).
Furthermore, the charge damage could possibly be slightly lowered whereas the non-charged damage could be slightly improved. That ways the void ray isn't useless without the charge, but it is not too powerful with it, either. It's silly when a void ray that is fully charged can easily beat 4 stalkers if not more; so the charge mechanic must certainly be adjusted but OP's suggestion would only be good from one point of view: that of a terran player being able to fend off these kind of pushes.
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This thread is incredibly frustrating to read, only 4-5 people have actually used or played against this specific strategy, and everyone else's advice is really bad. Linko isn't talking about a general void ray strategy, he's talking about a very specific strategy that is designed to exploit an opponent's walloff, namely the pylon pre-charge outside of an opponent's ramp.
I've played against the strategy 2-3 times and I'm not sure if it's broken yet, but I think it's possible. The first time I scouted void rays with my 1/1/2 build and I made vikings after my first production of banshees, but the attack hit before they came out and the pre-charged voids killed my bunker (even with SCVs repairing) in literally 3-4 seconds and everything else just insta-died.
The next time I played against it I just opened into double viking and threw down two more bunkers. This countered it, but it was a huge commitment and my opponent didn't even have to do the strategy he did. I had to open blind, and even then it was moderately hard to counter.
It is cheesy, but it is still very strong. It is counterable if you are sure the opponent is opening with it but I'm not sure if it's possible to know in time before it happens.
Edit: I would say that it is not generally counterable given the following circumstances:
a) You do not know he is going to do it
b) You wall-off
c) You do not do a very bio heavy build i.e. 3-rax
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On October 09 2010 23:40 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 23:27 Cashout wrote:
fast robo -> obs provides enough intelligence to counter any build terran throws at you, its definatelly safest and most flexible pvt build.
3gats + void ray is only counterable if u know in advance its comming and thats pretty much impossible unless u are very lucky or have some kind of 6th sense, preparing for vr rush everygame puts u way behind any other "normal" P build.
it's called "scan" - it costs 50 OC-energy observers force protoss to sink 250/150 into getting some useful scouting information; how on earth could you argue that protoss can be much more flexible, when they are forced to waste 250/150 early just to know what units/buildings they should "actually" get? the only reason why protoss transitions into colossi is because they simply can't get robotics AND templar-tech off one base and you call this flexible....
250/200
Robo is 200/100
Obs is 50/100
In any event, being a protoss player I have been told time and again to try fast VR vs Terrans because of how powerful it is.
Most of my PvT start of as Rine/Rauder about 1:2 or 1:3 ratio, so VR would certainly mop up. However, I have been facing more Rine/Tank and Rine/Hellion/Raven/Banshee play recently, where the VR/Stalker push tends to be least effective. between auto-turret and PDD from the raven and the mass of marines, the VRs generally die and the stalkers are wtfpwned by the banshees. Granted, I am only 1300 diamond.
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On October 10 2010 02:03 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 02:00 ganil wrote:
This kind of rush come before 9.xx.
They usually have 2 void ray with an other one on the way.
And yes,
If you don't scout it (and you usually don't, or too late with sthg like a floating factory), you loose. Period.
If you scout it but
- went FE before you saw it => you loose
- went 1/1/1 without viking first => you loose
- marauder heavy ? => you loose
- walled off your base => you loose
- failed at microing vikings (and it's not that easy to micro them against ray) => you loose
- ...
The only way to win is going marines heavy + stim early (nobody do that because it sucks) or going bio heavy wth a few vikings and not missmicro not walling off. If you don't have enough viking your army will be dead before void ray die and you loose, if you missmicro you loose, and if you have too much vikings... well you loose aswell.
It's very hard to counter. When I play protoss and face a terran, that's the only strategy i'm doing it the current version \o/.
People who say it's easy to counter are either like super succesfull when playing tournament, lying, or both. You can beat it with vikings, but you have to start making them early, or latest after your first raven or banshee. If you don't...you're dead.
wow, so what does that mean? right, you have to build a viking ASAP if you are not sure if he will have void rays
SO WHAT?
seriously, the MERE threat of cloaked banshees defines the whole build-order of protoss; you are forced to go early robo, you are forced to get an observer out; if you see starport with techlab you are forced to get ANOTHER observer, just because he "could" get cloak (most times he won't)
and you are complaining about the fact that you "may" have to build a viking before banshee/raven/medivac early if you failed to do proper scouting; cry me a river
you are saying it's all about build orders; EXACTLY - my basic build order in PvT is 1 gate twilight council into 3 gate +robo into templar archives;
or is it?
there you go, the PvT build that would be most effective because it would mean fast templar together with chargelots and immortals can NOT be executed simply because there "could" be banshees;
also your most effective terran-build can NOT be executed simply because there "could" be void rays; terran need to start adapting their build orders towards the threat of early void rays; this neither means terran will just die against anything else; protoss doesn't die with 2 gate robo vs "normal play" and neither will terran when they adjust their build order; currently terran has a pretty big advantage in midgame anyways (until protoss gets colossi or HT), so just adjusting the build to be able to defend against void rays should be extremely easy;
it was said you may need two bunkers - then ffs build two bunkers! you can salvage them anyways later on when they don't have void rays; again, an additional bunker is nothing compared to the disadvantage protoss has to compensate because of the threat of cloaked banshee;
in all honesty, all of this is like if a protoss player constantly refused to build a robotics facility for early observer, constantly died vs early cloak banshees and THEN came here and started a thread complaining that early robotics would mean he couldn't use his "normal" build order and that would be forced to use a much more crappy one; yes terran will probably lose some of its early advantage when they fail to get a scout off because they need to adjust their builds towards the potential threat of void rays; but no they won't die vs standard play and no this is definitely not a design flaw
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I love that link0 is ranked 44th in North America and people are telling him to l2p. I'm not going to comment on balance, since when I lose to void rays there is usually something I should have done better. People really need to stop comparing scans and observors. This isn't plat league, a scan should not see the stargate unless the Protoss puts it right in the middle of his base and it is very often proxied. It's hard as hell to scout and to stop unless the protoss is too reckless.
I don't play Protoss so i can't really speak to all those "auto-lose" situations but getting a robo isn't really bad against anything and scouting a unit comp (marine banshee) isn't exactly the same as scouting a proxy stargate that can destroy your whole base. Proxy banshees are really annoying and will kill some probes, they CAN even win the game, but you can react to it and recover if you play well. The same is true for hellion drops, even if you don't see it coming you can still react and recover with good micro. Don't take this as me calling imbalance, I just don't like false comparisons. I'm not saying I agree with link0 that there should be a change, but you're missing his point if you are comparing proxy void rays to a battlecruiser rush (did I really read that?).
I'm in no position to give link0 or Jinpo advice or argue with them about pro level balance problems. Personally, I don't wall off against Protoss anymore because of void rays. I like to open up with marine ghost lately and it feels pretty safe but skewing my comp toward heavy marines so often means that sometimes I just lose to colossi. Even still, if they go void rays and backstab me when I move out I know my base is gone and I just have to brute force his ramp and trade bases. I still don't think it's imbalanced though and even if it is I can win more games by just playing better. But link0 is talking about a whole different level of play and i'm sure as hell not going to tell him to l2p.
Edit: I just wanted to agree with iEchoic that link0 is talking about a very specific build that most people here have never played or played against (myself included) so the discussion has veered off into irrelevancy-land.
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On October 10 2010 03:04 Obscura.304 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 02:46 4Servy wrote:And how is T being forced to get a few Vikings even though it may not be optimal vs. most P openings any different than P having to go robo vs. T every game, even though Twilight Council -> Templar Archives would be better vs. most T builds? just make 2 vikings incase he goes voidrays and then die to DT or even 4gate wich looks 100% exactly similar to void ray tech aka 3 warpgates and 2 quick gasses. Oh and when protoss went 2gate/robo you have 2 useless vikings great. I thought TL once had a great rule in brood war thats called ''think before you post'' but I suppose that dont count on the SC2 forums. If building two vikings somehow makes you lose to DT, then you royally suck. Obviously, Vikings aren't good against any unit that Protoss really wants to build out of his Robotics Facility. There's no robotics unit that's a lynchpin to so many Protoss strategies that can be hit by anti-air. Nope. None at all. 4wpg is the only thing that might give you ANY trouble, but a bit of pressure on their ramp will clearly show 4wpg by unit count. Plus, warpgate units are so crappy vs. barracks units that you still shouldn't have any problems holding.
Your sarcasm is VERY clever and unique, however collosuses is the 'lynchpin' to exactly 1 protoss counter to bio, when templar tech is agruably more effective, and if they force you to build vikings, why would they then proceed to make collosus?
4wpg won't MAYBE give you trouble, it will kill you if you aren't defending with bunkers or going 3rax (and even then, proper sentry micro with FF and you still can die pretty easily).
I'm going to go make a suggestion post wherever one does that regarding a forum that requires confirmation that you're Diamond and 1k points or something.
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Game 1: You walk away from his ramp for no reason, when it's 1lot1sentry vs 2rine/2rauder. I stopped watching at this point, as I didn't feel like the proceeding game meant anything. You let him tech with no units, the solution is "just go fucking kill him". Worst case here is he holds with his ray coming out, you lose little and know what he's doing.
Game 2: You scout 2 gates with your SCV. So you know, uh, he isn't proxy gating you? That's about it. The next time you scout is with a hellion, just checking if he expanded. This is too late to react to anything anyway. Basically you played blind.
I don't mean to sound rude because you're a better player than I, but those games don't show anything because you made such big mistakes. I can have no opinion on this strat without seeing games with better play.
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Yea this is a super strong strategy. It used to piss me off. But I run a 2/1/1 marine/ghost opening now that dispatches it pretty handily. Bunker up the top of your ramp. Emp all that shit and fire away. Scout the map vigilantly vs protoss. Also of course you should do a well timed scan - or two. And if you don't see their tech you should strongly suspect void rays.
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On October 09 2010 14:33 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:27 arterian wrote:
There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming. That's true, but anything that's VERY DIFFICULT to scout shouldn't be so difficult to counter (ideally). I think all such builds are bad for a RTS because of the huge luck factor.
Couldn't the same thing be said of cloaked banshees from terran vs. zerg? The only way that a zerg can scout a starport is if you wander a overlord in the perfect place and the overlord doesn't get picked off by marines. I could say the same thing and say that such builds such as all in banshee rushes are bad because luck is a huge factor.
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I kind of agree with u , especially on the scouting part , scouting in starcraft is tough since people can hide verry well what they are doing . Cheese works to well imo I hate it if someone get's an undeserved win by doing cheesing , it's probarly to that I switched from warcraft 3 to starcraft 2 since in warcraft 3 scouting was easy.
Tough thanks for posting the replays =) now I know how to beat terrans with this xD
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i haven't watched the replay yet, but taking your word for it...
- lifting off your wall-rax to place addon and replace it with a bunker
- get a viking out first at starport (not a bad blind move if you don't know what your opponent is doing), with bio support the uber viking range can fend off colossus/voidray.
if you still don't know what he's doing after ~6-7 mins then send a scout reaper (protoss have a very hard time stopping scout reapers) or build a rax near toss base and float it over.
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The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans
User was warned for this post
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Charged Void Ray against armored targets (best case scenario) have worse dps/cost than marines (10.4 dps/cost vs 14 dps/cost)
This doesn't even account for gas being more valuable.
Sorry, I don't see how you can say that Void Rays are good here.
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On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote:Show nested quote +The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans
theres a top secret pro-level trick the protoss use which is to build the tech where the terran would not normally scan, and you can't waste scans randomly trying to find it - as it may not even exist.
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mass rines is really strong against that...
also if you push out early they wont be able to defend without revealing voidray tech
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I agree with the OP that void ray openings are hard to stop and difficult to scout but in my opinion it's easy to blind counter it as terran.
Why exactly are marine heavy 2-3 rax openings bad? The builds ITR used against tester in GSL are perfect example's of marine heavy builds that basically work against anything toss can open with.
3 rax with fast starport reactor is a very good opening that is great against anything (can start dropping and pressuring at 8:30 incase the P expo'd and it start off with mostly marine and a few marauders (with fast stim followed by shields) so its fine against stalker pressure.
Walling in simply isn't smart vs P and isn't neccesary anyways. 1 quick marauder after the first marine is enough to stop most pressure builds and if they 10pylon 10gate you can easily make a bunker near your mineral line.
Perhaps if the OP explained why a blind counter sucked I can understand his point of view but the terran fast stim + medivacs build is very strong all around and counters voidray openings quite easily.
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On October 10 2010 04:25 hoovehand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote:The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans theres a top secret pro-level trick the protoss use which is to build the tech where the terran would not normally scan, and you can't waste scans randomly trying to find it - as it may not even exist.
very few players hide robo though - and terran should be able to see the third pylon placement before the SCV dies;
so if you see the third pylon going down in a corner then there's a high chance protoss will throw down a robo there to not get it scanned; terran could...well...just scan there;
if all pylons are placed close to the nexus and your scan only reveals two gates then it's almost 100% proxy void ray
EDIT: the reason why you don't want to hide the robo as protoss is because there are few locations to hide it in positions where it can't be sniped from the outside or be very vulnerable to drops (remember tester vs ITR game two where tester got the robo sniped)
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this is for those who quote their rank and think they've tried everything coz they spend their time laddering a lot
don't wall off. they can charge up on their pylon all they want, just don't let them keep the charge on you. (Keep dancing around from base to ramp).
they will get frustrated and try to carry the charge on their own units. Now you've got to be smart about engaging. 3 voids is a pretty delayed rush, plus you've delayed them a little bit by kiting around. So u might be able to squeeze stim and a few more marines out in time.
In summary there are 2 things that can go wrong for the void-ray user, and by recognizing it you can delay them (or even make them commit the mistake)
1. pylon runs out of hp to self-charge
2. keeping charge by targetting own units fail
3. targetting own units for too long
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On October 10 2010 04:29 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 04:25 hoovehand wrote:On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote:The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans theres a top secret pro-level trick the protoss use which is to build the tech where the terran would not normally scan, and you can't waste scans randomly trying to find it - as it may not even exist. very few players hiding robo though - and terran should be able to see the third pylon placement before the SCV dies; so if you see the third pylon going down in a corner then there's a high chance protoss will throw down a robo there to not get it scanned; terran could...well...just scan there; if all pylons are placed close to the nexus and your scan only reveals two gates then it's almost 100% proxy void ray
so the protoss goes "darn the terran scouted my hidden pylon... oh well ill build my hidden tech next to it anyway"
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On October 10 2010 04:24 Darkstar_X wrote:
Charged Void Ray against armored targets (best case scenario) have worse dps/cost than marines (10.4 dps/cost vs 14 dps/cost)
This doesn't even account for gas being more valuable.
Sorry, I don't see how you can say that Void Rays are good here.
You aren't bothering to take into account that when you have that equivalent pile of marines, they will not all be shooting and they all have very low HP and die 1 by 1 during the battle. As an extreme example to illustrate this point, imagine attacking with 20 normal scvs vs attacking with 1 "super scv" that does 100 damage and has 700 HP. The super scv will be extremely powerful while the 20 scvs are easily cleaned up.
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On a semi-related note, this is how zergs feel about every single terran opening in zvt.
Like if you prepare for banshee (extra queen(s), save energy for transfuse, quick overseer) you will be in a shit position for a 3 rax marine all-in. If you see reactor hellions and prepare for a marauder hellion bust, you will suck versus a hellion expand or a banshee followup. Not to say it is impossible, but it is very difficult to play against.
So, I can share your sentiments, but imagine if protoss had like 4 or 5 of these and they all required different openings.
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You can probably theorycraft back and forth about why this is broken or not. It won't particularly help anything, though.
LinkO, here are some suggestions. I think they're pretty reasonable.
1.) If you go 3 rax, do it with the intent of breaking his base before this is a threat. In the first replay, if you'd attacked after the first force field, you would have killed his army and been fighting probes. The sentry had enough juice for one forcefield, and it used it keeping you out the first time.
2.) One your first scan, if you don't see enough buildings/pylons, get suspicious. Much like a suspicious protoss might get an observer if they see a bunker at the terran's gate (a 1/1/1 key), get a viking or two. It's not like vikings are useless - you can scout with it, use it later to kill Colossi, and they're not bad DPS if you land them. It's a precautionary measure.
Ultimately, people have to handicap their "optimal" build to deal with variety in opposing players' builds. People become adept at figuring out the absolute minimum they have to do to be safe from a particular attack. I'm confident that you'll figure out a way to do it.
Out of curiosity, LinkO, in the game I watched, you said that there was no way you'd send in a scouting reaper, because it was too risky. Why's that? I mean, at that point in the game, it's 1 unit - not that big a deal if you lose it. I didn't understand this bit...explain?
Thanks, and hope you get comfortable dealing with this attack.
-Cross
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On October 10 2010 04:47 Crosswind wrote:
Ultimately, people have to handicap their "optimal" build to deal with variety in opposing players' builds.
this
the "real" question is: would terran really die against standard protoss-openings if terran opened with a BO designed to kill void ray-cheese?
I highly doubt it, but this is much more what should be discussed - what would PvT look like if terran had to come up with a "anti-void-ray" standard-BO
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On October 10 2010 03:15 Agh wrote:
Here we go again.....
Protip: Banshee dps is just below a fully charged void ray.
Now I'm doing my best not to go off on a tangent, the main point is how signifying a single unit is more or less pointless to do unless it can be applied to EVERY scenario.
Also note that 1gate, stargate into 3 warpgate is EXTREMELY fragile, in which case you didn't scout properly or apply early pressure. Obviously once 3 gateways are completed with 2 Void rays out it becomes strong.
There are many appropriate responses that can be done to stop Void rays.
In my opinion walling off vs toss is a very bad choice (at least depot/rax wall in) Bunker(s) at your ramp are the best option. If you're paranoid about early zealots then get a fast reaper, doing early pressure as toss is a very big gamble since the increased zealot time makes it very difficult to make it worthwhile (i.e. pay for itself)
Seeing as core directly into robo is a highly preferred build that your scouting scv can actually see, that is one build you can safely cross off.
Also another tip: Look for the 3rd pylon. Honestly most good T players (not saying you aren't) will sac their scouting scv to see if the 3rd pylon is placed in their base.
depending on it's placement you can scan and more or less instantly know what hes going.
Or if you'd prefer you can always fly your factory into his main.
going out to lunch atm, may come back and edit this if I feel like it or if there is any good responses / discussion.
if you don't scout the stargate, and don't build vikings -> it's a freewin for protoss. Why are you trying to make this out as something fragile? It's no where near fragile at all.
if you miss scouting the stargate on the map, and do not start building blind vikings, or weren't already on 3 rax MM...you lose the game as T.
No one is arguing that void rays are fragile by themselves or that warpgates are by themselves. And people that only go warpgates go 4 warpgate, which is a completely different build than what OP is talking about.
What OP is arguing is that a random proxy stargate on the map, with x3 warpgates, when unscouted is a freewin for protoss. And that it's complete build order poker in terms of countering it.
It is...and unfortunately there's lots of stuff like that in sc2. Not just this build.
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On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote:Show nested quote +The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans
Seriously dude, like...SERIOUSLY?
At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS. Scan is not maphack, no Protoss outside of your bronze league is going to show you his void rays in the middle of his base. I'm sorry to be a dick about it but this garbage is getting ridiculous. Think before you post.
Other people suggesting counting pylons are being smart and productive. There are warning signs that something fishy is up, although i'm sure link0 is good enough to probably know these things.
posting "SCAN MOAR TERRANS ARE SO LAZY" is the kind of trash you should take to the blizzard forums, not here.
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On October 10 2010 04:59 Senorcuidado wrote:
At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS.
He actually doesn't.
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Copperhead was trying to give you advice before you ignored him and GG'ed out.
You built a Thor, sunk a ton of resources into starport tech (+ raven) and only had a few marines. You built 300 minerals worth of hellions which could have been six more marines -- you knew he had mass stalkers.
What is a thor there to counter? Void rays beat thors heads up and everyone knows this.
Your raven is so busy being alt+tabbed declaring on forums that a strategy is impossible to stop in all "reasonable conditions" that he didn't even PDD --- the greatest bane of stalkers in the game.
Honestly it looked like you intentionally threw that second game away to try to support your own argument.
Protoss: "Hey bro you should scout me... why not with a quick reaper?"
Terran: "Nope can't do that" (man this bastard is building mass stalkers and voids again)
Observers: "Oooook --- scan? Put an SCV in the middle of the map to see when he pushes out? Anything?"
*build hellions*
*sinks all money into anti-counters or literally unused units*
Your argument is that the build is too difficult to stop when you don't scout it, and that it was too difficult to scout (thus the issue). That is a reasonable argument but unfortunately your replays look like comp stomps because you didn't play back at him or even scout in the least. Obviously you're a fantastic player -- There is no way you can reach 2000 w/o being a fantastic player. Part of being a fantastic player is fantastic scouting and countering -- where was this?
Do you have any ladder matches where this happened, or any good games? That one oGs game linked was pretty good, but it was zealot/sentry instead of stalker.
I would like to reiterate -- I'm 100% convinced you're a great player and your argument has merit, but the only competitive replay in the entire thread is a protoss player getting his ass handed to him despite doing significant damage with his opening attack. This replay took place in arguably the best map/positions possible for the VR build.
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I play both races and am familiar with the 2VR + 3 warpgate strat, imo the "safe" answer as terran is just to tech slower, I see high level korean Ts favouring 2-1-1 recently. The 2 void attack is actually timed to punish terrans for rushing to raven/banshee off 1-1-1, it hits when terran's unit count is comparatively low so naturally terran will lose if they didn't see it coming and adapt.
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this is not hard to scout with scan, you do not actually have to see the stargate to prepare for it. why is this so hard to understand?
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On October 10 2010 05:03 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 04:59 Senorcuidado wrote:
At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS. He actually doesn't.
lol my bad. I can't watch the replay yet but maybe the toss put his stargate in a stupid place. But i guess it was a poor choice of words since I wasn't trying to refer specifically to link0, the point was that terrans in general do use scan and it will very very rarely see a stargate. His comment about "terrans in this thread" was still useless and stupid and doesn't solve anything.
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In game 1, he screwed up his build or else he'd have more than just a zealot and a sentry at his ramp (in which case moving up the ramp would be really risky). I was satisfied in scouting that he didn't FE and wasted one FF. Losing a handful of very early units as in T v P or P v T is just a huge setback that I didn't feel was worth risky.
Game 2, yea I should have put down a PDD. However, VR's lasers aren't affected by PDD and it'd be shot down in a split second. It wouldn't have mattered the slightest.
Once again, my point was that the 3gate VR build is not possible to stop, but that it forces you to 1) Not wall up, ever 2) Blindly go stim bio every game with a focus on marines.
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On October 10 2010 04:59 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote:The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans Seriously dude, like...SERIOUSLY? At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS. Scan is not maphack, no Protoss outside of your bronze league is going to show you his void rays in the middle of his base. I'm sorry to be a dick about it but this garbage is getting ridiculous. Think before you post.
Take some of your own medicine. In the replays this diamond league protoss builds the void rays in the middle of his base. And the second game terran probably even knows it is coming because it is against the same guy again.
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I am a 1800 toss on Europe and have tried this build after reading this thread.
This build is total allin and cheese. No way to transition out of it, and once scouted can be held off.
However, this build is so strong if unscouted, its amazing. Definately a new allin build I will learn. With a little micro it is unbeatable, UNBEATABLE.
When a terran scout this he needs 3 bunkers+ pull scv.
As the OP stated,
(1) this is hard to scout. I am kinda tired of reading al these people saying you need to scout better.
(2) you need to do an inferior build to counter this 'blindly', like 3 rax or viking first.
Walling off is really going to hurt terran; however, 10 pylon 10 gate zealot can be really annoying and I understand a terran would like to wall off because of that.
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On October 10 2010 05:35 wintergt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 04:59 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote:The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans Seriously dude, like...SERIOUSLY? At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS. Scan is not maphack, no Protoss outside of your bronze league is going to show you his void rays in the middle of his base. I'm sorry to be a dick about it but this garbage is getting ridiculous. Think before you post. Take some of your own medicine. In the replays this diamond league protoss builds the void rays in the middle of his base. And the second game terran probably even knows it is coming because it is against the same guy again.
2nd game was a practice game. I just played as if I didn't have prior knowledge of his builds.
Most top Toss players NEVER build critical tech in a predictable scan location, which is why I don't even bother scanning.
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"Scan" isn't an answer. The stargate can be proxied, in a corner that you don't scan, or anything. At best you have 1/2 chance of finding the stargate, if even that.
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On October 10 2010 05:37 iEchoic wrote:
"Scan" isn't an answer. The stargate can be proxied, in a corner that you don't scan, or anything. At best you have 1/2 chance of finding the stargate, if even that.
but you don't have to find it - there are very very few viable pvt openings, and if you don't see him:
- fast expanding
- opening robotics
- 4-gating? i guess, although this is shitty
you know to prepare for void rays. maybe there are other openings that people use once in a while, but my point is that there are no openings with 2-3 gateways on one base with no tech or expansion besides proxy void ray. this build is easy to scout.
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On October 10 2010 05:35 link0 wrote:
In game 1, he screwed up his build or else he'd have more than just a zealot and a sentry at his ramp (in which case moving up the ramp would be really risky).
I think someone said it, but it bears repeating. When we FF our ramp like that, before anything can come up, it's because we're shit-scared and are buying time. If we have the units to fight we *want* you to come up so we can split you, as you say. That early FF should have been a red flag that he has no units and is up to something.
It's possible we do it just as a mistake, but I think it's a good idea to assume somethings up and scan/scour the map/whatever.
Once again, my point was that the 3gate VR build is not possible to stop, but that it forces you to 1) Not wall up, ever 2) Blindly go stim bio every game with a focus on marines.
I'm not sure why 1 is a point? From what I've seen 10gate zealots can be dealt with without a wall. Hard, but doable. Can't think of any other purpose of a wall in the MU.
I guess I don't see where the scouting issues side of this problem is. If you scan him and the robo is AWOL, there aren't exactly 100 things the P could be doing... and that's ignoring signs like the early FFing.
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On October 10 2010 05:36 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 05:35 wintergt wrote:On October 10 2010 04:59 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote:The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans Seriously dude, like...SERIOUSLY? At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS. Scan is not maphack, no Protoss outside of your bronze league is going to show you his void rays in the middle of his base. I'm sorry to be a dick about it but this garbage is getting ridiculous. Think before you post. Take some of your own medicine. In the replays this diamond league protoss builds the void rays in the middle of his base. And the second game terran probably even knows it is coming because it is against the same guy again. 2nd game was a practice game. I just played as if I didn't have prior knowledge of his builds. Most top Toss players NEVER build critical tech in a predictable scan location, which is why I don't even bother scanning.
still I really think you should carefully count the pylons until the scv dies; toss players almost never hide their robotics facility; therefore if you don't see pylons being spread out, scan and do NOT see a robotics you can be 99% sure it's proxy void ray
hiding robotics is very risky because it's vulnerable to drops or being sniped from the low ground; you "should" be able to read something into it if you scan and see only 2-3 gate with way too few units
On October 10 2010 05:35 link0 wrote:
Once again, my point was that the 3gate VR build is not possible to stop, but that it forces you to 1) Not wall up, ever 2) Blindly go stim bio every game with a focus on marines.
the real question is - does this put you behind so far you won't be able to play a standard game?
nowadays we see terran with quite a nice midgame advantage; sacrificing some of this advantage to go more marine-heavy doesn't seem "so" bad for me?
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I'm not sure why 1 is a point? From what I've seen 10gate zealots can be dealt with without a wall. Hard, but doable. Can't think of any other purpose of a wall in the MU.
i don't exactly know why this is, as literally nothing a terran player has at that point in the game can possibly die to a zealot, because its 2.25 speed and melee. if a zealot tries to run around and chase a marine the marine can just run around and never get hit, and if a zealot tries to go in the mineral line and kill scvs, the terran player can just run away whatever scv gets hit by a zealot and since they are faster they should never die. walling off is pointless.
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On October 10 2010 05:40 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 05:37 iEchoic wrote:
"Scan" isn't an answer. The stargate can be proxied, in a corner that you don't scan, or anything. At best you have 1/2 chance of finding the stargate, if even that. but you don't have to find it - there are very very few viable pvt openings, and if you don't see him: - fast expanding - opening robotics - 4-gating? i guess, although this is shitty you know to prepare for void rays. maybe there are other openings that people use once in a while, but my point is that there are no openings with 2-3 gateways on one base with no tech or expansion besides proxy void ray. this build is easy to scout.
Yeah, but think about how you counter this build. You:
a) Don't wall off
b) Open with vikings
c) Bunker
So let's say you scan and see nothing. You assume he's proxying a stargate and then he walks into your base with DTs. You're not walled off, you have at most one scan, and no ravens. You scan and kill one DT then insta-lose.
Let's say again you scan and see nothing. This time he's got twilight council for charge/HTs. You have two worthless vikings and are way behind.
I'm not saying there is NO way to scout this reliably. Just 'scan' isn't one of them.
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On October 10 2010 05:35 wintergt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 04:59 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote:The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans Seriously dude, like...SERIOUSLY? At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS. Scan is not maphack, no Protoss outside of your bronze league is going to show you his void rays in the middle of his base. I'm sorry to be a dick about it but this garbage is getting ridiculous. Think before you post. Take some of your own medicine. In the replays this diamond league protoss builds the void rays in the middle of his base. And the second game terran probably even knows it is coming because it is against the same guy again.
that was my fault for poor choice of words, I wasn't actually trying to refer to the game itself but in general to the fact that most Protoss won't build it in the middle of their base and "scan moar don't be lazy" is a stupid one liner that doesn't contribute anything, and if he read the thread he would know that that argument has been beaten to death already.
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This post already has 11 pages and I'm sure my reply will be lost but I want to add my two cents as a former 1700 + Terran player: Link0 is absolutely right.
This build is nearly impossible to scout, and to defend successfully you need at LEAST 3 bunkers with scv repair. At least.
I will skim through the thread to see if any player of link0's caliber has a solution to this build, but like I said, as a successful Terran player 1700+ 400+ ladder wins, I can't stop this build unless I GUESS that they will do it.
EDIT: I guess what I can do is go back over all my losses to this build (5-10+) and study the exact unit count the Protoss had and use my timer to deduce based on his unit count and building count that he is going a "proxy" stargate. I think that it's a pretty shit method but what else could possibly work.
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I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting.
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Definitely a hard build to stop TvP.
Katari pretty much does this 90% of the time I play him.
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On October 10 2010 05:59 Ronald_McD wrote:
I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting.
And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax.
Also, you usually drop the pylon and immediately start charging on it, anyway. It's not something you have more than like 6 sec warning on.
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On October 10 2010 05:57 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 05:40 rycho wrote:On October 10 2010 05:37 iEchoic wrote:
"Scan" isn't an answer. The stargate can be proxied, in a corner that you don't scan, or anything. At best you have 1/2 chance of finding the stargate, if even that. but you don't have to find it - there are very very few viable pvt openings, and if you don't see him: - fast expanding - opening robotics - 4-gating? i guess, although this is shitty you know to prepare for void rays. maybe there are other openings that people use once in a while, but my point is that there are no openings with 2-3 gateways on one base with no tech or expansion besides proxy void ray. this build is easy to scout. Yeah, but think about how you counter this build. You: a) Don't wall off b) Open with vikings c) Bunker So let's say you scan and see nothing. You assume he's proxying a stargate and then he walks into your base with DTs. You're not walled off, you have at most one scan, and no ravens. You scan and kill one DT then insta-lose. Let's say again you scan and see nothing. This time he's got twilight council for charge/HTs. You have two worthless vikings and are way behind. I'm not saying there is NO way to scout this reliably. Just 'scan' isn't one of them.
i'm not exactly sure how the timing works, but given that you can see where they place their third pylon, aren't you able to scan there + most of their main before you make two vikings? you're either going to see no tech, which means proxy or FE, robotics, stargate, or twilight council.
as far as walling off goes i think the only benefit is against dt rush, but aren't dt rush and other twilight council openings like incredibly uncommon? i play protoss so i don't see what other protoss do vs terran much besides replays/vods but it seems to me that its warp gates + robotics in the vast majority of matches, and void rays or FE otherwise.
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On October 10 2010 06:05 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 05:57 iEchoic wrote:On October 10 2010 05:40 rycho wrote:On October 10 2010 05:37 iEchoic wrote:
"Scan" isn't an answer. The stargate can be proxied, in a corner that you don't scan, or anything. At best you have 1/2 chance of finding the stargate, if even that. but you don't have to find it - there are very very few viable pvt openings, and if you don't see him: - fast expanding - opening robotics - 4-gating? i guess, although this is shitty you know to prepare for void rays. maybe there are other openings that people use once in a while, but my point is that there are no openings with 2-3 gateways on one base with no tech or expansion besides proxy void ray. this build is easy to scout. Yeah, but think about how you counter this build. You: a) Don't wall off b) Open with vikings c) Bunker So let's say you scan and see nothing. You assume he's proxying a stargate and then he walks into your base with DTs. You're not walled off, you have at most one scan, and no ravens. You scan and kill one DT then insta-lose. Let's say again you scan and see nothing. This time he's got twilight council for charge/HTs. You have two worthless vikings and are way behind. I'm not saying there is NO way to scout this reliably. Just 'scan' isn't one of them. i'm not exactly sure how the timing works, but given that you can see where they place their third pylon, aren't you able to scan there + most of their main before you make two vikings? you're either going to see no tech, which means proxy or FE, robotics, stargate, or twilight council. as far as walling off goes i think the only benefit is against dt rush, but aren't dt rush and other twilight council openings like incredibly uncommon? i play protoss so i don't see what other protoss do vs terran much besides replays/vods but it seems to me that its warp gates + robotics in the vast majority of matches, and void rays or FE otherwise.
What if they spread their pylons? Going to take a 1/3 chance? What if they proxy their 3rd pylon?
There's no reliable method to scan tech structures. It's just luck.
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On October 10 2010 06:03 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 05:59 Ronald_McD wrote:
I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting. And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax.
Interesting iEchoic, this build link0 posted is pretty much a crushing counter to the 1-1-2. I've lost probably 100% of the time doing it vs this build. What I find more interesting... is that when I do this build my hellion drop is so crushingly effective because the timing push occurs nearly RIGHT after you do the drop (so a large fraction of their forces are on the move). This also means you just put a tech lab on your starport and by the time the viking comes out all his voidrays are fully charged and it dies in literally less than 1 second. I'm not even kidding.
It made me rage a few times knowing that I did a drop where I killed 20+ probes and he rolls up to my walled in base with 2 bunkers and mass marines and just shits on me even with mass repair. Void rays at an angle isolate the bunkers individually and then the stalkers do the rest...
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My possible Solution #1: Let VRs charge up faster than they do now, but lose charge every time they switch targets.
Then wtf does charge even do besides do additional damage to high health units? A zero micro ability that does nothing but do more damage.
This way, they are a proper counter to Collossi, Thors, BCs, Carriers, etc. I think it'll be very beneficial to the stale P v P matchup where the Collossi rules all.
This is horrible game design. A units functions should never be "specifically designed to counter y unit". They need to function intrinsically different then other units in the game.
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On October 10 2010 06:06 guyGOTgirth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:03 iEchoic wrote:On October 10 2010 05:59 Ronald_McD wrote:
I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting. And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax. Interesting iEchoic, this build link0 posted is pretty much a crushing counter to the 1-1-2. I've lost probably 100% of the time doing it vs this build. What I find more interesting... is that when I do this build my hellion drop is so crushingly effective because the timing push occurs nearly RIGHT after you do the drop (so a large fraction of their forces are on the move). It made me rage a few times knowing that I did a drop where I killed 20+ probes and he rolls up to my walled in base with 2 bunkers and mass marines and just shits on me even with mass repair. Void rays at an angle isolate the bunkers individually and then the stalkers do the rest...
The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible.
I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. There is a counter, it's just that scouting is incredibly hard.
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On October 10 2010 06:10 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:06 guyGOTgirth wrote:On October 10 2010 06:03 iEchoic wrote:On October 10 2010 05:59 Ronald_McD wrote:
I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting. And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax. Interesting iEchoic, this build link0 posted is pretty much a crushing counter to the 1-1-2. I've lost probably 100% of the time doing it vs this build. What I find more interesting... is that when I do this build my hellion drop is so crushingly effective because the timing push occurs nearly RIGHT after you do the drop (so a large fraction of their forces are on the move). It made me rage a few times knowing that I did a drop where I killed 20+ probes and he rolls up to my walled in base with 2 bunkers and mass marines and just shits on me even with mass repair. Void rays at an angle isolate the bunkers individually and then the stalkers do the rest... The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible. I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. If this becomes a really big problem you can proxy your factory outside their base and lift it in.
That is true, Vikings are just so bad vs a moderately charged voidray though, you have to have them before they get to your base with marine support or its for naught. Scouting with your 3rd scan / drop probably gives you enough time to see the stargate or "deduce" that it is a stargate, but that is usually *right* when the charged voidrays hit.
Meaning, the voidrays are harassing your bunkers while 1-2 vikings are getting built.
I guess what I'm saying is the timing is so delicate that if you dont have 2 vikings waiting behind your bunkers you're dead.
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On October 09 2010 14:33 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:27 arterian wrote:
There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming. That's true, but anything that's VERY DIFFICULT to scout shouldn't be so difficult to counter (ideally). I think all such builds are bad for a RTS because of the huge luck factor.
It's funny, cuz all terran builds are VERY DIFFICULT to scout due to them having a marine soon to kill off the probe and a wall to negate any scouting before the observer or the phoenixes. Banshees, drops, etc. can be hard to counter if you didn't know it was coming, so it also relies on luck.
Terran have a damn scan, can't you use it sometimes instead of wanting to be greedy and want these 300 extra minerals? Come on, they are the last race that can complain about the lack of scouting abilities.
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On October 10 2010 06:17 PatouPower wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:33 link0 wrote:On October 09 2010 14:27 arterian wrote:
There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming. That's true, but anything that's VERY DIFFICULT to scout shouldn't be so difficult to counter (ideally). I think all such builds are bad for a RTS because of the huge luck factor. It's funny, cuz all terran builds are VERY DIFFICULT to scout due to them having a marine soon to kill off the probe and a wall to negate any scouting before the observer or the phoenixes. Banshees, drops, etc. can be hard to counter if you didn't know it was coming, so it also relies on luck. Terran have a damn scan, can't you use it sometimes instead of wanting to be greedy and want these 300 extra minerals? Come on, they are the last race that can complain about the lack of scouting abilities.
Terran builds are difficult to scout for ~ the first 6 minutes of the game clock. Then overseers/lings and observers > than terran scouting. IMO at least.
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What is the void ray damage output anyway and how do upgrades affect it? Does it just go like x2, x3 (i.e. 6 at start, then 12, then 18?)? Or...?
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Scan should almost never be relied on to search for tech earlygame. It is a bad practice.
Relying on something that is inherently luck, easily countered (by hiding or proxying buildings) and not reliable to actually scout what you need to see is not a good idea. If you really need scouting info, you should work a reaper or a proxy rax/factory into your build.
Everyone saying "just scan" is giving really shitty advice. Don't scan for tech early into the game, you should NEVER incorporate that early into your build.
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I have won many game charging my v rays on destruct rocks. This seems to be a viable strategy on these certain maps and only on those maps. 3 charged void rays just eat rines for breakfast. I try not to go air all the time since all the games don't macro up like higher level games and you have more "all in" (I HATE to call them that but lets us common terms) builds. Perhaps I play toss and don't think it is too broken. I really hate tanks though. haha just thought I'd add that.
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On October 10 2010 06:25 iEchoic wrote:
Scan should almost never be relied on to search for tech earlygame. It is a bad practice.
People shouldn't make such categorical statements unless they have some serious backing. Plenty of Terran pros scan, so it clearly isn't that simple.
Relying on something that is inherently luck, easily countered (by hiding or proxying buildings) and not reliable to actually scout what you need to see is not a good idea. If you really need scouting info, you should work a reaper or a proxy rax/factory into your build.
A scan still tells you they're doing something unusual, even if the tech is hidden. It's more information than you had before. Whether it's worth it is a discussion to be had, but it is most certainly not useless.
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On October 10 2010 06:34 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:25 iEchoic wrote:
Scan should almost never be relied on to search for tech earlygame. It is a bad practice.
People shouldn't make such categorical statements unless they have some serious backing. Plenty of Terran pros scan, so it clearly isn't that simple. Show nested quote +
Relying on something that is inherently luck, easily countered (by hiding or proxying buildings) and not reliable to actually scout what you need to see is not a good idea. If you really need scouting info, you should work a reaper or a proxy rax/factory into your build.
A scan still tells you they're doing something unusual, even if the tech is hidden. It's more information than you had before. Whether it's worth it is a discussion to be had, but it is most certainly not useless.
What terran pros work a scan into their build? People in this thread are suggesting you should always scan after their factory. I'm not aware of a single terran pro who does this.
I said almost never, not never. There are some cases where scanning is appropriate but working an early unconditional scan into your build is not a good idea.
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On October 10 2010 06:03 Masq wrote:
Definitely a hard build to stop TvP.
Katari pretty much does this 90% of the time I play him.
Yep, I remember playing katari, that's literally the only build he ever did. hilarious.
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On October 10 2010 06:37 iEchoic wrote:
What terran pros work a scan into their build? People in this thread are suggesting you should always scan after their factory. I'm not aware of a single terran pro who does this.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/1943
Just looked at random games. That was the second one :>
OgsGon used fact scout to spot the ray against Iron, would that not work well too?
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On October 10 2010 06:10 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:06 guyGOTgirth wrote:On October 10 2010 06:03 iEchoic wrote:On October 10 2010 05:59 Ronald_McD wrote:
I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting. And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax. Interesting iEchoic, this build link0 posted is pretty much a crushing counter to the 1-1-2. I've lost probably 100% of the time doing it vs this build. What I find more interesting... is that when I do this build my hellion drop is so crushingly effective because the timing push occurs nearly RIGHT after you do the drop (so a large fraction of their forces are on the move). It made me rage a few times knowing that I did a drop where I killed 20+ probes and he rolls up to my walled in base with 2 bunkers and mass marines and just shits on me even with mass repair. Void rays at an angle isolate the bunkers individually and then the stalkers do the rest... The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible. I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. There is a counter, it's just that scouting is incredibly hard.
Then adjust your opening build to always assume that he will go VR's. It doesn't hurt the Terran to have 2 vikings lying around and could also be transformed to harrass the probe line. Just like how Terran had to adjust their build in TvZ broodwar to assume mutas would come early-mid game.
Do not say Scan can't solve your problem, the Stargate might be placed elsewhere on the map, but you can scan his main and see how he lacks certain tech tree at a certain timing, and that will tell you. Especially because Protoss doesn't have numerous valid openings like T, he will have only a few choices to open up
This thread title using the word ' flaw ' already shows how biased the OP is. This is another whine thread, it should be closed.
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You can always tell a Stargate build by its lack of units. No luck involved.
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Scan and send an scv or marine around the map like the AI does to make sure there isn't any hidden nonsense. I don't usually see protoss willing to build outside there base area unless it's a proxy rush. I do agree that there is no real counter for charged void rays but if you nerf the void rays then they will become that unit that no one will want to invest in.
Most of these complaints on the forums about IMBA units can be solved by better scouting.
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This was fitting. First ladder game after being in this post: My opponent is 1400, I'm 1600+
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156144.jpg)
I went for a 1-1-2 variation without the hellion harass and walled in with depot/depot bunker instead of a rax. I use my first 3 OCC energy on mules and scout with a factory -- by the time I see the rays they are at my base.
Also due to positioning my initial scouting SCV is killed by stalkers at ramp.
To be fair, I am caught out of position initially but in terms of cost / units lost we are even. I also have 2 banshees that are 1/2 way through production that I do not cancel, though I don't believe that would have made a difference.
We have the same amount of money "spent" as well as the same "income." IE if I threw in an arbitrary scan on his main (his stargate was built off to the side and probably would have missed it) I would have been ~ - 300 spending in the hole.
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On October 10 2010 06:10 iEchoic wrote:
The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible.
I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. There is a counter, it's just that scouting is incredibly hard.
tbh void ray all-in is designed to kill 1/1/1, and THIS is completely ok; 1/1/1 is probably the greediest opening tech-wise there is, if you go for it you have to live with losing against void rays once in a while;
I sometimes go nexus first vs fast expanding zergs, when they just go mass baneling/zergs from two hatch not droning up I'm dead; yeah well, that's life; no need for discussing this, if somebody goes 1/1/1 he got it coming
concerning your hellion-drop build: I also firmly believe that fast void rays are a counter to your build; the thing is, when I plan on going void rays and see a 1/1 opening, I know I will win against 1/1/1 that are going into more baracks easily because there will be way too few marines;
so I have to account for a fast 2nd starport and for your hellion-drop; which means I play it "kiwikaki-style" and wall off my mineral-line; I have never lost with fast void rays vs hellion-play because your vikings just come too late; I'm in no position to write this because you are a much better player than I am, but if you are not sure if he goes void rays, I would screw any plans about hellion-dropping - the worst that will happen is that you will just have more banshees earlier; still not that bad
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On October 10 2010 07:12 guyGOTgirth wrote:
There's not even any point in scouting that late. He made all his tech choices eons before your fact got to his base.
Why build the depots there? IMO just the bunker then add the depots if you smell DTs.
Mostly it was the non-existent scouting until it was way too late though.
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On October 10 2010 07:12 guyGOTgirth wrote:
Also due to positioning my initial scouting SCV is killed by stalkers at ramp.
man, you scouted at 19......19!
also you had no stim; you need stim, absolutely, absolutely necessary
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On October 10 2010 07:17 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:10 iEchoic wrote:
The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible.
I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. There is a counter, it's just that scouting is incredibly hard. tbh void ray all-in is designed to kill 1/1/1, and THIS is completely ok; 1/1/1 is probably the greediest opening tech-wise there is, if you go for it you have to live with losing against void rays once in a while; I sometimes go nexus first vs fast expanding zergs, when they just go mass baneling/zergs from two hatch not droning up I'm dead; yeah well, that's life; no need for discussing this, if somebody goes 1/1/1 he got it coming concerning your hellion-drop build: I also firmly believe that fast void rays are a counter to your build; the thing is, when I plan on going void rays and see a 1/1 opening, I know I will win against 1/1/1 that are going into more baracks easily because there will be way too few marines; so I have to account for a fast 2nd starport and for your hellion-drop; which means I play it "kiwikaki-style" and wall off my mineral-line; I have never lost with fast void rays vs hellion-play because your vikings just come too late; I'm in no position to write this because you are a much better player than I am, but if you are not sure if he goes void rays, I would screw any plans about hellion-dropping - the worst that will happen is that you will just have more banshees earlier; still not that bad
Normal void openings are easy to counter for me, and people have tried it on me at least 25-30 times to no success. You just need to keep the voids off you with your 8 marines until you get vikings out and you win. You probably fight people with 4 marines instead of 8 because 90% of the people who do my build do the 2nd refinery after the factory instead of the starport, leaving them with not enough minerals for their marines.
This pylon-at-the-front-gate is a completely different monster though, and requires a lot bigger reaction to counter. You basically have to open 2x viking and you need to throw down more bunkers.
Unfortunately I didn't save the replay of me beating this pylon-charge void ray, but I basically opened 2x vikings and threw down 2 more bunkers behind my wall and brought like 15 scvs to repair. Then a cloaked banshee won it.
The thing is the required response is really drastic and if you don't start doing it immediately there is no way to stop it.
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from my experience and posts in this thread it seems that this void ray attack counters factory heavy builds.
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On October 10 2010 07:26 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 07:12 guyGOTgirth wrote:
Also due to positioning my initial scouting SCV is killed by stalkers at ramp.
man, you scouted at 19......19! also you had no stim; you need stim, absolutely, absolutely necessary
Hehe fair enough =p... with that said I don't think stim or scouting at (2:15 vs 3:30) would have changed the outcome as played. do you?
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On October 10 2010 07:27 iEchoic wrote:
This pylon-at-the-front-gate is a completely different monster though, and requires a lot bigger reaction to counter. You basically have to open 2x viking and you need to throw down more bunkers.
Unfortunately I didn't save the replay of me beating this pylon-charge void ray, but I basically opened 2x vikings and threw down 2 more bunkers behind my wall and brought like 15 scvs to repair. Then a cloaked banshee won it.
of course I was talking about pre-charged void rays, anything else isn't really worth discussing imo
dunno about the downsides, but I once lost vs 1/1/1 into more baracks on delta quadrant where the terran just didn't build ANYTHING anywhere near the ramp; I could've proxied a pylon at his ramp IN his main without him seeing it lol; I ended up losing my charge and got owned;
we saw this new building-structure too in IEM PvT today, maybe just build your base very tight will be the answer? meaning tight enough to also allow only small entrances for DTs and scv-pulls, kinda the same way P walls vs hellion-harass
shakuras is a completely different chapter though, here I think void rays ARE imbalanced; P can charge up on the rocks and won't lose the charge while going to the gas; I can hit at your fron while my void rays are loose in your back....shouldn't be possible on balanced maps
On October 10 2010 07:32 guyGOTgirth wrote:
Hehe fair enough =p... with that said I don't think stim or scouting at (2:15 vs 3:30) would have changed the outcome as played. do you?
yeah you're right, not really - your positioning was just very, very unlucky; that's the jackpot for us P-players when playing void rays, getting marines outside of the base stuck against only one force field
but you really need the tech-lab on the first baracks earlier for stim
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How is it bad to make a viking first?
I think it's one of the most annoying things to see one flying around in my base knowing that terran doesn't have to scan and can spend everything on mules.
And if this is a scouting problem for Terran is the only solution to this another nerf to the protoss unit?
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The thing is the required response is really drastic and if you don't start doing it immediately there is no way to stop it.
iEchoic...is this particularly different from most all-ins? 6 rax Marines requires a similar "I HAVE TO DO THIS NOW" approach.
I think, eventually, people will get comfortable dealing with this. And that, in the meanwhile, there will be a great deal of complaining on the strategy forums. Much like there was for the 4-gate, the 3-rax, and a half-dozen other strats of the week.
-Cross
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In the big t brawl, naniwa did this build to BratOK in game 1. Go watch it. He did the push with just two VR. It was also scouted by BratOK. You'll be able to see how effective this build is even though it was scouted and eventually pushed back.
Edit: I should note, you'll have to wait to watch it because it JUST happened.
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They should make it so VRs can't charge off their own units and buildings.
I've been 3 gate VR'd plenty of times and vikings are out of the question. 3 void rays that come into your base PRE-charged will shred vikings in half a second. The only way to stop those 3 VRs accompained by mass stalkers is a ton of marine with a few marauders for stalkers. And the only way to get sufficient amount of bio is to open 3 rax or open 2/1/1 with a heavier marine composition. 1/1/1 would be instant suicide.
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A tech whoring build like 1/1/1 dies to something? Tragedy! If I went 1gate 1citadel 1archives and asked why I was dying people would laugh at me.
Go 2/1/1 standard then, or go 1/1/1 and accept it can die to something. Most BOs can.
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I'm not wanting to take sides either way towards whether they should or shouldn't be changed, but one adjustment that would keep the design intent intact would be as follows:
The final charge-up has three stacks. Each stack is added when the Void Ray focuses a single target for 3 seconds. A stack is lost each time the Void Ray switches targets. Once the stacks fall off, the Void Ray's beam returns to normal.
So basically you can charge up on a big target, switch to kill two of anything, but then you have to target something that has enough HP to reapply these stacks.
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If you open 111 you could maybe get 1 raven and use PDD?
* edit- would the void ray loose their charge?
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I think the best change would be to not allow void rays to charge up on allied/neutral units. Keeping your charge on a zealot/pylon is pretty rediculous.
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On October 10 2010 08:30 megalopsy wrote:
If you open 111 you could maybe get 1 raven and use PDD?
* edit- would the void ray loose their charge?
Void ray attacks aren't stopped or affected in any way by PDD. 1/1/1 would easily stop this, however, due to the ease of which Terran can just get tanks and vikings to counter stalkers and VRs. The only issue with 1/1/1 is that it allows a competent P to easily FE with no fear of any real retribution.
Personally, I think opening with a fast fac with hellion would be ideal. The factory would be useful for further tech or tanks anyways and a fast hellion would be really nice for scouting. Scan the P's base and use hellion to scout the rest of the map. I don't imagine it to be too difficult to stop. I personally think a 5-6 rax marine cheese is harder to stop for P than this 3gate VR build for T.
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Honestly, I think this is pretty silly. If anything, Void Rays are "flawed" in PvZ. Atleast Zerg can't scan if they get denied scouting.
The Protoss will need early double gas, few gas costly units, and fewer gateways, which quite frankly is more then enough to realise that something fishy is going on.
Not to mention the fact that there are several Terran strategies which can't be stopped unless anticipated/scouted.
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pdd can get shot down by micro'd void rays very quickly, but if you place the pdd back farther, it will still zap stalker blasts but it will require void rays to move into more dangerous range of marines to in order to attack it. The pdd has a pretty large radius, actually, and an attack only needs to enter the radius at some point. It certainly doesn't need to be thrown down right on top of your troops.
Not saying that it would counter this build at all, but I'd like to throw that out there in the discussion to those people saying it's absolutely worthless (it may still be, but whatever).
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can people seriously stop saying to scan? You shouldn't scan a protoss to try and find tech, ever. Unless you are 100% sure their tech is there...
As a protoss player i think that a voidray being able to charge up on rocks/own buildings should be removed from the game. It's stupid.
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On October 10 2010 08:04 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +The thing is the required response is really drastic and if you don't start doing it immediately there is no way to stop it. iEchoic...is this particularly different from most all-ins? 6 rax Marines requires a similar "I HAVE TO DO THIS NOW" approach. I think, eventually, people will get comfortable dealing with this. And that, in the meanwhile, there will be a great deal of complaining on the strategy forums. Much like there was for the 4-gate, the 3-rax, and a half-dozen other strats of the week. -Cross
You're right except for one thing, 5-6 rax marines are wayyyyyy easier to scout and take less commitment to stop. No gas is one early tipoff and hiding 5-6 raxes is nearly impossible. From the time the stargate goes up anywhere on the map you have about 1:00 to scout it until it's too late. I don't believe there's any early tipoff like no gas, and I also don't think you can hide 5-6 rax from a reaper, a scan, or literally anything, whereas a stargate is easy to hide.
I'm not saying the strategy is necessarily broken, although I'm not sure yet. I'm just saying this strategy is a hell of a lot more difficult to stop than people are giving it credit for. This thing is completely unique and is unlike other allins.
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On October 10 2010 09:23 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 08:04 Crosswind wrote:The thing is the required response is really drastic and if you don't start doing it immediately there is no way to stop it. iEchoic...is this particularly different from most all-ins? 6 rax Marines requires a similar "I HAVE TO DO THIS NOW" approach. I think, eventually, people will get comfortable dealing with this. And that, in the meanwhile, there will be a great deal of complaining on the strategy forums. Much like there was for the 4-gate, the 3-rax, and a half-dozen other strats of the week. -Cross You're right except for one thing, 5-6 rax marines are wayyyyyy easier to scout and take less commitment to stop. No gas is one early tipoff and hiding 5-6 raxes is nearly impossible. From the time the stargate goes up anywhere on the map you have about 1:00 to scout it until it's too late. I don't believe there's any early tipoff like no gas, and I also don't think you can hide 5-6 rax from a reaper, a scan, or literally anything, whereas a stargate is easy. I'm not saying the strategy is necessarily broken, although I'm not sure yet. I'm just saying this strategy is a hell of a lot more difficult to stop than people are giving it credit for. This thing is completely unique and is unlike other allins.
So basically it's the Protoss equivalent of 1/1/2 that you designed? A lot of Terrans abuse it to 1500+ on ladder, but then it becomes exceedingly difficult to pull off against higher players. Now Protoss players have a build they can abuse to 2000 on the ladder (or until an optimal counter is found). Except your 1/1/2 build is labeled as a "strong build" while 3 gate star is labeled as a "design flaw." I think Terran players need to break the mentality that they're the race that can do whatever they want while every other race has to adapt.
I just find it amusing that when the 1/1/2 build became popular, Protoss players did complain about banshees, but also tried to figure ways to overcome the build. But the OP takes a different route and decides that Void Rays are flawed in design and that the game needs to be changed.
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Couldn't agree more with MayorITC.
But i do think they put those rocks too close to the mains and naturals on some maps. Especially on these new two maps.
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On October 10 2010 09:33 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 09:23 iEchoic wrote:On October 10 2010 08:04 Crosswind wrote:The thing is the required response is really drastic and if you don't start doing it immediately there is no way to stop it. iEchoic...is this particularly different from most all-ins? 6 rax Marines requires a similar "I HAVE TO DO THIS NOW" approach. I think, eventually, people will get comfortable dealing with this. And that, in the meanwhile, there will be a great deal of complaining on the strategy forums. Much like there was for the 4-gate, the 3-rax, and a half-dozen other strats of the week. -Cross You're right except for one thing, 5-6 rax marines are wayyyyyy easier to scout and take less commitment to stop. No gas is one early tipoff and hiding 5-6 raxes is nearly impossible. From the time the stargate goes up anywhere on the map you have about 1:00 to scout it until it's too late. I don't believe there's any early tipoff like no gas, and I also don't think you can hide 5-6 rax from a reaper, a scan, or literally anything, whereas a stargate is easy. I'm not saying the strategy is necessarily broken, although I'm not sure yet. I'm just saying this strategy is a hell of a lot more difficult to stop than people are giving it credit for. This thing is completely unique and is unlike other allins. So basically it's the Protoss equivalent of 1/1/2 that you designed? A lot of Terrans abuse it to 1500+ on ladder, but then it becomes exceedingly difficult to pull off against higher players. Now Protoss players have a build they can abuse to 2000 on the ladder (or until an optimal counter is found). Except your 1/1/2 build is labeled as a "strong build" while 3 gate star is labeled as a "design flaw." I think Terran players need to break the mentality that they're the race that can do whatever they want while every other race has to adapt.
That's the stupidest analogy I've ever read on these forums, 1/1/2 isn't all in at all and it was actually started by top korean players and used by pros like TLO, and it continues to work fine against high-level players. How you can compare a stable opening like 1/1/2 to an all-in void ray rush is completely beyond me.
I'm done with this thread, these replies are getting way too stupid.
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On October 10 2010 10:06 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 09:33 MayorITC wrote:On October 10 2010 09:23 iEchoic wrote:On October 10 2010 08:04 Crosswind wrote:The thing is the required response is really drastic and if you don't start doing it immediately there is no way to stop it. iEchoic...is this particularly different from most all-ins? 6 rax Marines requires a similar "I HAVE TO DO THIS NOW" approach. I think, eventually, people will get comfortable dealing with this. And that, in the meanwhile, there will be a great deal of complaining on the strategy forums. Much like there was for the 4-gate, the 3-rax, and a half-dozen other strats of the week. -Cross You're right except for one thing, 5-6 rax marines are wayyyyyy easier to scout and take less commitment to stop. No gas is one early tipoff and hiding 5-6 raxes is nearly impossible. From the time the stargate goes up anywhere on the map you have about 1:00 to scout it until it's too late. I don't believe there's any early tipoff like no gas, and I also don't think you can hide 5-6 rax from a reaper, a scan, or literally anything, whereas a stargate is easy. I'm not saying the strategy is necessarily broken, although I'm not sure yet. I'm just saying this strategy is a hell of a lot more difficult to stop than people are giving it credit for. This thing is completely unique and is unlike other allins. So basically it's the Protoss equivalent of 1/1/2 that you designed? A lot of Terrans abuse it to 1500+ on ladder, but then it becomes exceedingly difficult to pull off against higher players. Now Protoss players have a build they can abuse to 2000 on the ladder (or until an optimal counter is found). Except your 1/1/2 build is labeled as a "strong build" while 3 gate star is labeled as a "design flaw." I think Terran players need to break the mentality that they're the race that can do whatever they want while every other race has to adapt. That's the stupidest analogy I've ever read on these forums, 1/1/2 isn't all in at all and it was actually started by top korean players and used by pros like TLO, and it continues to work fine against high-level players. How you can compare a stable opening like 1/1/2 to an all-in void ray rush is completely beyond me. I'm done with this thread, these replies are getting way too stupid.
plz don't leave :< some of us actually think critically and appreciate very good players' input. Do you have any replays from games you've played against this build? Do you think it's possible to develop a realistically "safe" strategy against this build without falling hopelessly behind against a p if he doesn't end up using it?
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Agreed with the 'scan is not the answer' argument. Picture the scene...
It is steppes of war. You have scouted about the Protoss base, and there are pylons all over, and he's taken both his gas. There are too many potential areas to place tech for you to catch in a single scan. You're still concerned that the toss might pull some shit, so you scan anyway, and you see 2 gateways.
2 gateways.
Ok, genius's, fucking tell me how that helps? I can totally use that information to tell that he has :
1) expanded
2) doing a shitty variation of a 4gate (most 4gates are a one-gas build, but some people are weird)
3) 1/2/3 gate robo.
4) stargate tech, either in his base or proxied somewhere
5) DT tech, either in his base or (most likely) proxied somewhere. This does happen a LOT on the ladder, and whilst early pressure builds do kill particularly greedy protosses that try this shit, it's still an infuriating build.
oh wait, I fucking can't, beacuse scan is a very expensive and risky move to try and scout the protoss!
Regular Void ray play is, as mentioned by eocheic, countered by having a few marines handy (reactor Rax-ftw!) and also by having a very tight base layout so the voidray has to go quite deep into your base to shoot stuff. So much easier to kill that way (especially if you have some stim ready!). Void ray busts I have not seen very much of on ladder to be able to comment about, I'll admit that, but it is rather obnoxious that a protoss can charge up on neutral buildings like rocks and mengsk statues.
Ugh><
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This is so freaking biased, I like how you actually state P >>>>> T late game in your first game.
Now I don't disagree that VRs are broken but this is just so much bias it's making me sick.
You also say you need to do an all-in build to protect against this which is .... an all-in? I see no problem in this.
Making an expo when you suspect this (and even knew) is nothing but wierd.
EDIT; Was actually second game.
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On October 10 2010 10:26 Gsk wrote:
This is so freaking biased, I like how you actually state P >>>>> T late game in your first game.
Now I don't disagree that VRs are broken but this is just so much bias it's making me sick.
You also say you need to do an all-in build to protect against this which is .... an all-in? I see no problem in this.
Making an expo when you suspect this (and even knew) is nothing but wierd.
There's some bias, but there's plenty of legitimate points.
The P > T late game is a pretty well acknowledged fact by a lot of folks.
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On October 10 2010 05:35 link0 wrote:
In game 1, he screwed up his build or else he'd have more than just a zealot and a sentry at his ramp (in which case moving up the ramp would be really risky). I was satisfied in scouting that he didn't FE and wasted one FF. Losing a handful of very early units as in T v P or P v T is just a huge setback that I didn't feel was worth risky.
Game 2, yea I should have put down a PDD. However, VR's lasers aren't affected by PDD and it'd be shot down in a split second. It wouldn't have mattered the slightest.
Once again, my point was that the 3gate VR build is not possible to stop, but that it forces you to 1) Not wall up, ever 2) Blindly go stim bio every game with a focus on marines.
that's a good start
also try improving your micro tricks once you have mastered those 2 points. It can make the whole difference.
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Finally someone posts about this stupidity. Back when I played T I was constantly complaining about voidrays being a broken unit. I don't know why this hasn't gotten more attention. Voidrays uncharged are pretty damn pathetic. Charged, they're just impossible to combat with proper support. 3 gate VR is a pretty allin build, but it's difficult - sometimes impossible to scout. The reaction you need is really awkward, and on top of that, it definitely does add an element of BO luck into TvP.
Also when you remove all the games won by this and other stupid luck-based allins, it's much easier to see the difficulty for P in standard TvP. I don't like how P's best solution to standard play is these kinds of dumb allins.
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P does have (conceptually!) a stronger late game because their army scales better because most of it is sick splash damage. Picutre like 8 colosi with +2/3 attack upgrades. Now picture a bioball running into it.
This got worse with the tank and BC nerf.
The main issue is that, for terran, we have MMM+ ghost, maybe vikings, and that's our entire unit lineup for the whole game. Once we have reactor starport, 3+ rax and maybe a ghost academy we've hit our lategame unit composition. All we can really do is take more bases and make more of just those units! This isn't to say it's weak, it's just that it scales linearly wheras the Protoss colosi and HT scale exponentially. The more powerful splash damage they can bring out the better, which is why you can regularly see huge colossus/ht groups melt a large bio army in seconds.
This isn't to say it's completely awful for Terran. Terrans can still try siege tanks, and terrans can make some truly obscene movement plays and harassments to stay ahead with them medivacs, etc. It's just that in straight up engagements, the later the game goes on the better for protoss if he's massing up all those sweet AoE murderers (unless the Terran hits them with a truly nasty sucker punch, like drop-killin a nexus or a bunch of probes).
EDIT-
pulled from the Drewbie interview:
ROOT.Drewbie:
TvP is a really hard matchup. Theres 2 kinds of P users, the macro tosses and the allin tosses. Agaisnt the allin tosses, you just have to stop their first attack and you win. But I feel like in the late game, P units are more cost effective than T units. It's not necessarily imbalanced, because if T keeps the pressure on the entire game, then they can out expand the P.
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Oh dear god... I just read through a good portion of this thread. We HAVE to get some strategy forum restrictions. I feel so bad for great players like Avilo and Link0 getting shittalked by gold league champions who think they've figured out the entire game. It's just a joke now. I feel about sc2 strategy the way I feel about the battlenet forums. It doesn't matter how good your post is and what you say because the noobs will just flock to it and spout nonsense nonstop until your OP is so covered in bullshit that you have wade up to your eyeballs in it to find any good information.
TL please do something. =[
Edit: and to keep this reasonably on track:
Voidrays should be changed dramtically. I'm not talking about little balance tweaks. I want to see a complete unit redesign. Blizzard should've realized they botched the voidray in beta, but I think amidst the chaos of balancing out marine/scv allins and other more pressing matters it got overlooked by the community. I do think that most people simply don't comprehend how the voidray is bad game design, but I assure everyone that link0 is right - it is.
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You need a replay, with no replay its just another QQ post..
Edit: But you know what, if you happen to scout the stargate before it pumps out the voids, you win! And if not.. LoL
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i think if you do a 2 marine techlab, stim as soon as it lands, and then throw down cc ---> 3 more rax scout with reaper. Once u see this, u can just pump marines throw an ebay, and then have a bunker + 1 turret at an entrance, while pumping marines. It holds it very nicely and u have an expo up.
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I def. think void ray charge needs to be changed. They are meant to originally be strong vs units with large hp like the battlecrusier but as of now, charged they own basically everything
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I don't see the problem. Vikings or stimmed marines can counter them. If you scout void rays in time, you can shut it down completely. Denied void rays are a huge resource sink, which will in the end most probably lead to the loss of the Protoss opponent. If you miss to scout or suspect it and don't have the perfect timing, you will lose. But that's alright, because if you are unsure about your enemie's opening, just always play safe and build enough marines or a viking. Therefore you would end up being predictable. This separates you from better players.
I do not deny that void rays are hard to counter!
I'd probably play an early push or try to pull off perfect scouting like off factory + one reaper + scouting all usual off stargate positions.
Nevertheless, the void ray should be examined in future. I don't like that their are only two different damage stages, while three are shown and the last one is extremely good vs. armored and fairly weak against non-armored. It's weird.
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Canada1637 Posts
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This thread is awesome on so many levels. Especially the part where Masq put it so succinctly.
The forward-pylon-precharge, is a beast, especially since it can be started before the pylon even finishes if the protoss were so inclined. Which is the issue, the void-ray as a concept is great, but I don't think blizzard saw this being used to pre-charge on it's own units/buildings. I give a lot of credit to protoss players for adapting its use; but I think this straddles the line between clever and circumvention of the way the unit was intended to be used. Anyway, moving on:
<comments about how blind vikings should be built>
<comments about how scan should be used to confirm a stargate>
<comment about how protoss has 1 other opening so it's easy to spot>
Meanwhile, back at the ranch. After a bit of testing with my resident protoss player friend, I drew some conclusions. On the protoss side, a little micro goes a long way. That's I think part of the point Link0 is also touching on. Void Rays, as fragile as they are, are not so fragile when behind a healthy amount of stalkers. There's a number of variables that go beyond scouting. Just to name a few, stim/shields/unit comp/micro are pretty much the biggest. (This of course has all been mentioned but I'm reiterating incase some people missed it).
It also puts terran in a dangerous position that even if it succeeds, you're pretty committed to a stimmed, and potentially unmedivac supported army. Tbh, I think teching to vikings on the sight of a stargate might be a bit reckless, you have a small window to do so, between your 2nd/3rd production building. I think it puts you too spread out where I think you need numbers to basically clog up and surround protoss units. I can't say exactly that marine/raven/banshee really will help either, especially for the cost.
Of course the same could be said for the Protoss as an expansion may be delayed, as well as a significant investment of gas has been made towards the voids.
You need xel naga towers to spot a probe coming out, and you need to put a unit on patrol in certain areas. This of course is a map-based issue so some areas might be better than others, but it's not as cut and dry as "doing x->getting y".
This all just shows how you need to know your opponents playbook and open with a build that keeps you flexible that you aren't pouring too much into teching that will be more expensive, when for a cheaper alternative, you can just pump cheap marines and control group your marauders to a different group.
bottom line: proxy-charge void ray is tough. and is not easily defended even with scouting, and it's only made harder if your opponent has any sort of micro.
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On October 10 2010 10:25 iaguz wrote:
Agreed with the 'scan is not the answer' argument. Picture the scene...
It is steppes of war. You have scouted about the Protoss base, and there are pylons all over, and he's taken both his gas. There are too many potential areas to place tech for you to catch in a single scan. You're still concerned that the toss might pull some shit, so you scan anyway, and you see 2 gateways.
2 gateways.
Ok, genius's, fucking tell me how that helps? I can totally use that information to tell that he has :
1) expanded
2) doing a shitty variation of a 4gate (most 4gates are a one-gas build, but some people are weird)
3) 1/2/3 gate robo.
4) stargate tech, either in his base or proxied somewhere
5) DT tech, either in his base or (most likely) proxied somewhere. This does happen a LOT on the ladder, and whilst early pressure builds do kill particularly greedy protosses that try this shit, it's still an infuriating build.
oh wait, I fucking can't, beacuse scan is a very expensive and risky move to try and scout the protoss!
Regular Void ray play is, as mentioned by eocheic, countered by having a few marines handy (reactor Rax-ftw!) and also by having a very tight base layout so the voidray has to go quite deep into your base to shoot stuff. So much easier to kill that way (especially if you have some stim ready!). Void ray busts I have not seen very much of on ladder to be able to comment about, I'll admit that, but it is rather obnoxious that a protoss can charge up on neutral buildings like rocks and mengsk statues.
Ugh><
There's more then one way to scout. You could do it the old fashioned way but that might require APM. You could really just replace the words "void ray" with "cloaked banshee" and the post would be identical.
Scout better, learn to deal with surprises, practice more. Too many terrans go for a full on mass marauder build against P and assume they've already countered the collosi.
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Yeah, void rays are my least favorite unit in SC2 - they are completely one sided, either doing nothing or virtually ending the game.
I like the idea of protoss having a good air-to-ground unit to at least force some anti air, but the mechanic is just really dumb. I'd like to see the charge work as an energy ability, where it could use it's super-charged attack, but then not be able to shoot at all once it was out of energy. That way it would be able to serve it's original purpose of countering things like BC's and carriers, something that it doesn't even do now.
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On October 10 2010 10:33 PROJECTILE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 10:26 Gsk wrote:
This is so freaking biased, I like how you actually state P >>>>> T late game in your first game.
Now I don't disagree that VRs are broken but this is just so much bias it's making me sick.
You also say you need to do an all-in build to protect against this which is .... an all-in? I see no problem in this.
Making an expo when you suspect this (and even knew) is nothing but wierd. There's some bias, but there's plenty of legitimate points. The P > T late game is a pretty well acknowledged fact by a lot of folks.
It's a fairly biased statement because there's been no evidence brought forth. The only time Protoss wins is in the lategame because 1 Bunker > all midgame aggression. You never see Protoss win early game so everyone is biased into thinking hur dur lategame OP. A new build arises that can beat the 1 Bunker and actually ends it midgame against tech heavy and greedy openings. So now you guys are crying over Void Rays. I'm sure Blizzard will nerf it in a hearbeat and Terran can resume never needing to react to their opponent whilst the equivalent Banshee/Marine/PDD will still require Protoss to blind counter.
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This is the only build thugnificent does on ladder vs terran. Sadly I've lost to it too many times T_T
You pretty much have to have a timing for a blind bunker if you do not have any scouting intel. Just skimming through this thread, a lot of the higher level terrans (1.7k+) say it's strong, and everyone else just gives stupid suggestions.
The only thing Terran should ever scan for is an expansion, everything else is a coinflip/gamble vs good tosses.
Although it is a pretty gay build, it does have its counters/ways to beat it. Namely being pro active with scouting, or knowing the timing(which is easy since we have an in-game timer now), and just not over reacting. As soon as the voids are dead, protoss is pretty screwd.
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On October 10 2010 10:25 iaguz wrote:
Agreed with the 'scan is not the answer' argument. Picture the scene...
It is steppes of war. You have scouted about the Protoss base, and there are pylons all over, and he's taken both his gas. There are too many potential areas to place tech for you to catch in a single scan. You're still concerned that the toss might pull some shit, so you scan anyway, and you see 2 gateways.
2 gateways.
Ok, genius's, fucking tell me how that helps? I can totally use that information to tell that he has :
1) expanded
2) doing a shitty variation of a 4gate (most 4gates are a one-gas build, but some people are weird)
3) 1/2/3 gate robo.
4) stargate tech, either in his base or proxied somewhere
5) DT tech, either in his base or (most likely) proxied somewhere. This does happen a LOT on the ladder, and whilst early pressure builds do kill particularly greedy protosses that try this shit, it's still an infuriating build.
oh wait, I fucking can't, beacuse scan is a very expensive and risky move to try and scout the protoss!
How is this any different than in TvX, where T can produce cloaked banshees that you cannot really scout. Hell, even when you scout the terran base, 10s after you scout he can swap his addons around and be producing different units.
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Personally, I would prefer that P had a viable air unit and not the, in my opinion, gimmicky Void Ray (I'll say I'd take the Scout, even). The whole "build a proxy pylon to pre charge" is pretty ludicrous in my opinion, and I can see how this can be take advantage of ridiculoously in some maps like Blistering Sands or wherever you can safely build a hidden pylon near the opponents main. Having an air unit for me to deal *effectively* with Marauders would also be nice.
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On October 10 2010 11:53 iaguz wrote:
P does have (conceptually!) a stronger late game because their army scales better because most of it is sick splash damage. Picutre like 8 colosi with +2/3 attack upgrades. Now picture a bioball running into it.
This got worse with the tank and BC nerf.
The main issue is that, for terran, we have MMM+ ghost, maybe vikings, and that's our entire unit lineup for the whole game. Once we have reactor starport, 3+ rax and maybe a ghost academy we've hit our lategame unit composition. All we can really do is take more bases and make more of just those units! This isn't to say it's weak, it's just that it scales linearly wheras the Protoss colosi and HT scale exponentially. The more powerful splash damage they can bring out the better, which is why you can regularly see huge colossus/ht groups melt a large bio army in seconds.
This isn't to say it's completely awful for Terran. Terrans can still try siege tanks, and terrans can make some truly obscene movement plays and harassments to stay ahead with them medivacs, etc. It's just that in straight up engagements, the later the game goes on the better for protoss if he's massing up all those sweet AoE murderers (unless the Terran hits them with a truly nasty sucker punch, like drop-killin a nexus or a bunch of probes).
EDIT-
pulled from the Drewbie interview:
ROOT.Drewbie:
TvP is a really hard matchup. Theres 2 kinds of P users, the macro tosses and the allin tosses. Agaisnt the allin tosses, you just have to stop their first attack and you win. But I feel like in the late game, P units are more cost effective than T units. It's not necessarily imbalanced, because if T keeps the pressure on the entire game, then they can out expand the P.
Ravens, Battlecruisers, and Banshee harass would like to have a word with you.
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Let me get this straight: You're proposing nerfing or changing Void Ray mechanics because there is a high tier strategy out there which is difficult to stop if not scouted for? Don't you think that's a bit insane? That's pretty close to a protoss being upset about losing to a 7 pool because he didn't send a scout at all.
I think I have a much better solution to your dilemma:
Get 1 viking, have it run around the ENTIRE map if you're that paranoid over an incredibly obscure protoss strategy, and if you see the symptoms that would make you believe "he is massing stalkers and void rays", maybe throwing down some missile turrets and a 15 marauders or so wouldn't kill you. Also: killing his proxy pylon would nearly completely destroy the strategy. At that point, his air tech is useless, and all you need is some marines to counterpush.
I'll be honest, I'm very surprised a 2k point diamond terran player would come to this bold conclusion about void rays based on the premises that he didn't scout the opponents strategy until it was ALMOST fatal and even then you've still found ways to counter it without preparation.
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On October 10 2010 14:05 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Let me get this straight: You're proposing nerfing or changing Void Ray mechanics because there is a high tier strategy out there which is difficult to stop if not scouted for? Don't you think that's a bit insane? That's pretty close to a protoss being upset about losing to a 7 pool because he didn't send a scout at all.
I think I have a much better solution to your dilemma:
Get 1 viking, have it run around the ENTIRE map if you're that paranoid over an incredibly obscure protoss strategy, and if you see the symptoms that would make you believe "he is massing stalkers and void rays", maybe throwing down some missile turrets and a 15 marauders or so wouldn't kill you. Also: killing his proxy pylon would nearly completely destroy the strategy. At that point, his air tech is useless, and all you need is some marines to counterpush.
I'll be honest, I'm very surprised a 2k point diamond terran player would come to this bold conclusion about void rays based on the premises that he didn't scout the opponents strategy until it was ALMOST fatal and even then you've still found ways to counter it without preparation.
Do you not read the thread at all? Are you mentally challenged? Do you not understand the basic concepts of the difficulty of defending against this build? How are you going to have time to build a viking and run it around the entire map before they are already killing your entire base/army? Do you not understand by going viking first you are crippling yourself against other p builds?
I can see why avilo and iechoic easily got fed up here, you people are retarded.
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Watching the replays posted this definitely seems like a strong strategy, and obviously the answer isn't just wasting a scan. However, looking at this from the Protoss side I don't see what the big deal is. How is this any different than Cloaked Banshee's from Terran? The reason Robo tech is considered standard play in PvT is exactly because the Protoss player is blind countering cloaked Banshee's with the observer, and then just making the most of what he has to work with under that constraint. If this Voidray build is really that scary, then I'm pretty confident that Terran players will adapt just like Protoss players already have.
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On October 10 2010 14:14 Vaporak wrote:
Watching the replays posted this definitely seems like a strong strategy, and obviously the answer isn't just wasting a scan. However, looking at this from the Protoss side I don't see what the big deal is. How is this any different than Cloaked Banshee's from Terran? The reason Robo tech is considered standard play in PvT is exactly because the Protoss player is blind countering cloaked Banshee's with the observer, and then just making the most of what he has to work with under that constraint. If this Voidray build is really that scary, then I'm pretty confident that Terran players will adapt just like Protoss players already have.
The protoss can counter cloaked banshees without significantly affecting the rest of the game. The terran will be much more behind in blindly countering this build.
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Void Rays should get OWNED by Marines but do pretty decently against Vikings-- not quite cost-effective, but perhaps trading lives for cost (a net win for the Terran, since Vikings are easier/faster to produce).
This way, Void Rays, while getting owned in a straight fight by marines, at least force the marines to stay in the base and are actually more mobile than their counters (which, as of right now, is the Viking).
My two cents. Easiest way to go about this is to add a +armored to charge level 2, and add a charge reduction on target-switching.
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...Well, hopefully I won't get flamed unnecessarily again by you Projectile but I must ask: what is the problem with a strategy that requires a significant change of pace and strategy for the Terran?
I'll go back to my example about the 7 pool. Do you have to play much differently against an opponent who is cheesing? Yes. Very much so. You don't go 15 hatch 16 pool when you see a 7 pool. You retaliate. And it completely changes the games pace. That doesn't make the strategy unfair, it's just you being smart and reacting to what you scout.
No doubt, any hidden tech and proxy pylons will cause major problems for any race. Lord knows if outside my natural expo (as zerg) I didn't know my opponent had a decent stalker and charged void ray force, I'd probably lose. Likewise: if I were protoss without a forge or a robo and I didn't see a dark shrine, I'd probably be caught with my pants on the ground too.
But, rather than inciting even more rage within you (which P.S. Is both unnecessary and just plain silly because obviously I read through this thread) I'll say this: The game hasn't been out very long, very few people are at the same skill level as the op, and therefore very few people have "tapped into the realm" of this play for a Terran to learn how to effectively adapt to this strategy. Personally: I think it's great that terrans have a little more necessary reaction based play in order to win. But either way, this is way to unrefined for it to cause a serious threat in balance strong enough that the entire unit should be changed, thus effecting much lower levels of playing dramatically.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 13:29 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 10:25 iaguz wrote:
Agreed with the 'scan is not the answer' argument. Picture the scene...
It is steppes of war. You have scouted about the Protoss base, and there are pylons all over, and he's taken both his gas. There are too many potential areas to place tech for you to catch in a single scan. You're still concerned that the toss might pull some shit, so you scan anyway, and you see 2 gateways.
2 gateways.
Ok, genius's, fucking tell me how that helps? I can totally use that information to tell that he has :
1) expanded
2) doing a shitty variation of a 4gate (most 4gates are a one-gas build, but some people are weird)
3) 1/2/3 gate robo.
4) stargate tech, either in his base or proxied somewhere
5) DT tech, either in his base or (most likely) proxied somewhere. This does happen a LOT on the ladder, and whilst early pressure builds do kill particularly greedy protosses that try this shit, it's still an infuriating build.
oh wait, I fucking can't, beacuse scan is a very expensive and risky move to try and scout the protoss!
Regular Void ray play is, as mentioned by eocheic, countered by having a few marines handy (reactor Rax-ftw!) and also by having a very tight base layout so the voidray has to go quite deep into your base to shoot stuff. So much easier to kill that way (especially if you have some stim ready!). Void ray busts I have not seen very much of on ladder to be able to comment about, I'll admit that, but it is rather obnoxious that a protoss can charge up on neutral buildings like rocks and mengsk statues.
Ugh>< There's more then one way to scout. You could do it the old fashioned way but that might require APM. You could really just replace the words "void ray" with "cloaked banshee" and the post would be identical. Scout better, learn to deal with surprises, practice more. Too many terrans go for a full on mass marauder build against P and assume they've already countered the collosi.
Yes, I know there is 'more then one way to scout'. My point is that scan is a huge gamble, and what I outlined above is a huge reason why terrans don't think "well, just scan them, lol" is an acceptable counterargument to 'this all-in is incredibly nasty to deal with whilst doing standard play' which is the point of the OP.
Also, no halfway decent terran goes mass marauder vs P. we all make sure one of them raxes has a reactor on it. Problem is that charged voids are ridiculously strong against marines, the only real counter I'll have whilst doing standard play.
+ Show Spoiler +How is this any different than in TvX, where T can produce cloaked banshees that you cannot really scout. Hell, even when you scout the terran base, 10s after you scout he can swap his addons around and be producing different units.
It's actually not too hard to suspect when a T is rushing cloaked banshees, or perhaps going for a 1/1/2 opening, as P. And if he's not, you should get the robo anyway. It's soooooo good.
Check his front/early unit composition. Is at least one of those units a marauder? If so, how many? Did your scout get slowed when it got hit? Was there a bunker with marines in it?
That's basically it. You can notice a lot about what a Terran is doing just be using a probe like that. You'll probably lose the probe, but it's 50 minerals well spent imo. Good watchtower control helps an awful lot too (don't be afraid to use that first chronoboosted stalker to do this!) so you can see any early 1/3 rax move out. If you see a marauder, that usually means infantry upgrades and almost (like, have you ever really seen that!?) never means a cloaked banshee. If it does mean a cloaked banshee then you should easily be able to spot it with your observer. No biggee.
Ok, I'm oversimplifying it a bit, but you get what I mean. Conversely, to get a good reading of what the P's cyber core tech was I need to physically see it. I cannot infer anything until I see the building or anything that spewed out of the building, and it could be anywhere!
The stargate could be fucken' ANYWHERE, and no amount of good scouting will ENSURE I see it. Note that word ensure. Yes, some of the time when I run my SCV around the map, I might see the proxy. Perhaps. Maybe I'll be able to slip a reaper in there and take a look around. Maybe my scan will actually see the stargate this time! Who knows! The point is that T's are upset with void ray busts because it's very difficult to spot, and when not spotted (or if it gets spotted too late) then it can be extremely difficult to play against.
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On October 10 2010 14:17 PROJECTILE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 14:14 Vaporak wrote:
Watching the replays posted this definitely seems like a strong strategy, and obviously the answer isn't just wasting a scan. However, looking at this from the Protoss side I don't see what the big deal is. How is this any different than Cloaked Banshee's from Terran? The reason Robo tech is considered standard play in PvT is exactly because the Protoss player is blind countering cloaked Banshee's with the observer, and then just making the most of what he has to work with under that constraint. If this Voidray build is really that scary, then I'm pretty confident that Terran players will adapt just like Protoss players already have. The protoss can counter cloaked banshees without significantly affecting the rest of the game. The terran will be much more behind in blindly countering this build.
Stimmed marines handle a fully charged ray very easily. You only need like 6.
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On October 10 2010 14:36 iaguz wrote:+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 13:29 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 10:25 iaguz wrote:
Agreed with the 'scan is not the answer' argument. Picture the scene...
It is steppes of war. You have scouted about the Protoss base, and there are pylons all over, and he's taken both his gas. There are too many potential areas to place tech for you to catch in a single scan. You're still concerned that the toss might pull some shit, so you scan anyway, and you see 2 gateways.
2 gateways.
Ok, genius's, fucking tell me how that helps? I can totally use that information to tell that he has :
1) expanded
2) doing a shitty variation of a 4gate (most 4gates are a one-gas build, but some people are weird)
3) 1/2/3 gate robo.
4) stargate tech, either in his base or proxied somewhere
5) DT tech, either in his base or (most likely) proxied somewhere. This does happen a LOT on the ladder, and whilst early pressure builds do kill particularly greedy protosses that try this shit, it's still an infuriating build.
oh wait, I fucking can't, beacuse scan is a very expensive and risky move to try and scout the protoss!
Regular Void ray play is, as mentioned by eocheic, countered by having a few marines handy (reactor Rax-ftw!) and also by having a very tight base layout so the voidray has to go quite deep into your base to shoot stuff. So much easier to kill that way (especially if you have some stim ready!). Void ray busts I have not seen very much of on ladder to be able to comment about, I'll admit that, but it is rather obnoxious that a protoss can charge up on neutral buildings like rocks and mengsk statues.
Ugh>< There's more then one way to scout. You could do it the old fashioned way but that might require APM. You could really just replace the words "void ray" with "cloaked banshee" and the post would be identical. Scout better, learn to deal with surprises, practice more. Too many terrans go for a full on mass marauder build against P and assume they've already countered the collosi. Yes, I know there is 'more then one way to scout'. My point is that scan is a huge gamble, and what I outlined above is a huge reason why terrans don't think "well, just scan them, lol" is an acceptable counterargument to 'this all-in is incredibly nasty to deal with whilst doing standard play' which is the point of the OP. Also, no halfway decent terran goes mass marauder vs P. we all make sure one of them raxes has a reactor on it. Problem is that charged voids are ridiculously strong against marines, the only real counter I'll have whilst doing standard play. + Show Spoiler +How is this any different than in TvX, where T can produce cloaked banshees that you cannot really scout. Hell, even when you scout the terran base, 10s after you scout he can swap his addons around and be producing different units. It's actually not too hard to suspect when a T is rushing cloaked banshees, or perhaps going for a 1/1/2 opening, as P. And if he's not, you should get the robo anyway. It's soooooo good. Check his front/early unit composition. Is at least one of those units a marauder? If so, how many? Did your scout get slowed when it got hit? Was there a bunker with marines in it? That's basically it. You can notice a lot about what a Terran is doing just be using a probe like that. You'll probably lose the probe, but it's 50 minerals well spent imo. Good watchtower control helps an awful lot too (don't be afraid to use that first chronoboosted stalker to do this!) so you can see any early 1/3 rax move out. If you see a marauder, that usually means infantry upgrades and almost (like, have you ever really seen that!?) never means a cloaked banshee. If it does mean a cloaked banshee then you should easily be able to spot it with your observer. No biggee. Ok, I'm oversimplifying it a bit, but you get what I mean. Conversely, to get a good reading of what the P's cyber core tech was I need to physically see it. I cannot infer anything until I see the building or anything that spewed out of the building, and it could be anywhere! The stargate could be fucken' ANYWHERE, and no amount of good scouting will ENSURE I see it. Note that word ensure. Yes, some of the time when I run my SCV around the map, I might see the proxy. Perhaps. Maybe I'll be able to slip a reaper in there and take a look around. Maybe my scan will actually see the stargate this time! Who knows! The point is that T's are upset with void ray busts because it's very difficult to spot, and when not spotted (or if it gets spotted too late) then it can be extremely difficult to play against.
Haha, this post amused me. Yes, it's painfully obvious when the terran is going banshees or any other build based solely on probe scouting up the ramp in the early game. However, terrans cannot infer anything about a 3gate stalker-void ray all-in based on scouting the protoss ramp. It could be *anything* -- there's just no way to know!
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Dude, really the matchup is pretty even... If you get ghosts, mostly marines, and a few marauders, you will handle most everythign that P can throw at you at the point of the game the 3gate/Stargate comes out... VRs have exactly 100 shields, and only 150 hit points and 0 armor... As a P player who uses this build, it is really, really dependent on not being scouted. Sure it seems powerful if you are surprised by it, but it is super flimsy and is more of a gamble for the P player than doing another, more solid build involving macro.
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On October 10 2010 14:30 Jeffbelittle wrote:
...Well, hopefully I won't get flamed unnecessarily again by you Projectile but I must ask: what is the problem with a strategy that requires a significant change of pace and strategy for the Terran?
I'll go back to my example about the 7 pool. Do you have to play much differently against an opponent who is cheesing? Yes. Very much so. You don't go 15 hatch 16 pool when you see a 7 pool. You retaliate. And it completely changes the games pace. That doesn't make the strategy unfair, it's just you being smart and reacting to what you scout.
No doubt, any hidden tech and proxy pylons will cause major problems for any race. Lord knows if outside my natural expo (as zerg) I didn't know my opponent had a decent stalker and charged void ray force, I'd probably lose. Likewise: if I were protoss without a forge or a robo and I didn't see a dark shrine, I'd probably be caught with my pants on the ground too.
But, rather than inciting even more rage within you (which P.S. Is both unnecessary and just plain silly because obviously I read through this thread) I'll say this: The game hasn't been out very long, very few people are at the same skill level as the op, and therefore very few people have "tapped into the realm" of this play for a Terran to learn how to effectively adapt to this strategy. Personally: I think it's great that terrans have a little more necessary reaction based play in order to win. But either way, this is way to unrefined for it to cause a serious threat in balance strong enough that the entire unit should be changed, thus effecting much lower levels of playing dramatically.
There is a drastic difference between a lot of the typical proxies you see and this build. First of all, let's not touch on other matchups; that is out of the scope of this thread (I will be the first to admit ZvT or ZvP probably needs some work balance-wise, but let's not continue on that path). The thing about other proxies, is that there is a variety of mechanical ways to deal with them even if you spot them late or don't spot them at all. Sometimes you can infer certain things based on scouting, sometimes you can't; but there is hardly a proxy or early all-in I can think of where you can't mechanically deal with it or infer something different is going on when you open with a safe build. There are certain BOs that will straight up lose to others (14 CC vs 5 pool anyone?) but those are risky builds vs risky builds. The conceptual problem with this build, as others have stated, is that it makes tvp into "build order poker," (or, more aptly, build order rock paper scissors). While there is something to be said about the game theory involved in those kinds of games (hell, you can even view most professional sports to have some of these game theory elements in them), I think most would agree we want to minimize the amount they affect games in starcraft. While other builds can be held off with quick adjustments, scouting, and excellent mechanics, if you do something slightly wrong against this build, you lose, and if you prepare specifically against it, you will be behind if they choose to something else. THAT is the problem, fundamentally. You can mention cloak banshees or something, but protoss players have been able to stop cloak banshees without getting behind as the game progresses for quite a while now.
Don't mistake this for me admitting this is OP prematurely; I agree that a bit more testing against it should be done, and that even the best players are very capable of being wrong about things.
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i get so many straightup bo losses after 5-10 min, so i dont see why that shouldnt at least sometimes be the case for terrans as well? :[
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On October 10 2010 15:00 Socke wrote:
i get so many straightup bo losses after 5-10 min, so i dont see why that shouldnt at least sometimes be the case for terrans as well? :[
What builds in particular, usually?
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On October 10 2010 15:04 PROJECTILE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 15:00 Socke wrote:
i get so many straightup bo losses after 5-10 min, so i dont see why that shouldnt at least sometimes be the case for terrans as well? :[ What builds in particular, usually?
These ones? (at least, the ones I've faced)
-Mass marines (Auto loss if you went zealot/stalker stalker on close maps, such that you can't get a sentry out in time to FF your ramp)
-Marine/Banshee/Raven push
-M&M concussive/stim push if caught off guard and not on ramp to FF
-Marines+Mass repair'd Thor
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Protoss don't auto lose to cloaked banshee cause they mostly assume its coming and incorporate that into the build from the start. There would be a whole lot of different mid-game strategies out of Protoss if they didn't have to do this. If this was the auto-win Terran makes it out to be, it would be used a lot more, which it isn't, because it's not. At least unlike cloaked banshee, a response doesn't require a unique tech path that's 3 buildings down . . .
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http://screplays.com/replays/ikester/11378
Not really saying it's completely insurmountable but this is ridiculous. I can only produce marines so fast and while I had an idea something was going on (2 gas when there were only 1-2 gates) it's stupid how effective they can be for no real trade off. He had nothing to worry about in terms of threat but when I'm playing Protoss, I have to be aware of any number of stupid cheese strats that might be thrown at me that I can't scout, even when I try and he doesn't.
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Take a couple marines and shift click the most likely places for proxy. 3 voids take a while to build and you should be able to find it no problem. That being said, I think void rays beam should only charge on enemy units and maybe rocks. Charging on your own units is just silly.
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Yeah, I must post in this thread again. This thing is sort of a bitch.
I just played Katari, who everyone said kept void raying them. I thought "great, I'm going to hard counter this and see how it goes". As soon as he left my ramp and I knew it was coming I threw down 2 more bunkers which are basically necessary, he poked back up my ramp, saw it, and just left his proxy pylon (which I'm assuming he was going to build his stargate at) and fast expanded. I had two worthless vikings and wasted bunkers. I ended up being significantly behind.
Bleh.
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After watching the replays, its pretty hard to see what you are talking about. The build is only good if you cant get a scout.
This concept applies to pretty much everything, a 6 pools is amazing if your opponent doesn't scout it.
I saw several points in the build where you could just crush it. Pretty much any time before he gets the first void out you should feel free to just walk right up to his base and start pressure. What can he do about it? Hes low on gateway units all the time, yeah he has stalkers but what can stalkers do against maruders and marines, with an early stim?
He cant really move out at all or even expand until about 10 minutes or later.
In the second game you made a few micro mistakes here and there, you raven had enough energy for point defense drone but was never thrown. The Scvs were not repairing your bunker. Those two things might have helped tremendously.
The point defense drone would have at least taken 50% of the stalker fire while you could have used your marines to focus down the void rays.
In both games though you early army was always bigger than his, if you had just pressured his front I think he would have had a much harder time executing this without dieing instantly.
Another example of how vulnerable he is, is also in game 2, your lone banshee without cloak just comes in and gets 6 probe kills, his one response is to run his probes away, because this one attack is his all in, if it doesn't work hes screwed might as well have GGed.
Anyways I am no expert, but just looking at the replays and the actions that happened, I would say the build is ok but only if you know for a fact that your opponent wont early pressure you.
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Don't change Void Rays, they are such an interesting unit to watch especially in very high level play. They add so many more mechanics and strategies to quiet a predictable SC2 Protoss.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 15:00 Socke wrote:
i get so many straightup bo losses after 5-10 min, so i dont see why that shouldnt at least sometimes be the case for terrans as well? :[
Because Terrans should win every game, duh...
Well, yeah, this is a good point. Do note that I'm totally unsure about this build and the overall situation of TvP because of it. I only agree with a void ray nerf/redesign because I'm a selfish terran arsehat. I'm merely trying to refute some of the rather incorrect shit some people are saying about this MU.
EDIT- oh, and iEchoic, can we see that replay? I'd like to see what you did in that situation.
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On October 10 2010 15:44 iEchoic wrote:
Yeah, I must post in this thread again. This thing is sort of a bitch.
I just played Katari, who everyone said kept void raying them. I thought "great, I'm going to hard counter this and see how it goes". As soon as he left my ramp and I knew it was coming I threw down 2 more bunkers which are basically necessary, he poked back up my ramp, saw it, and just left his proxy pylon (which I'm assuming he was going to build his stargate at) and fast expanded. I had two worthless vikings and wasted bunkers. I ended up being significantly behind.
Bleh.
I hate Void Rays but you definitely can't assume Void Ray everytime. This just diminishes the argument because you blindly assumed void ray vs. people who are actually looking for it.
If you assume that you'll die everytime to a specific build then I promise that you'll die every time to something you didn't guess.
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How is this a thread about a design flaw and not about voidrays being overpowered? There are a lot of builds that will destroy you if you don't scout it and adjust accordingly.
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On October 10 2010 12:07 Floophead_III wrote:
Oh dear god... I just read through a good portion of this thread. We HAVE to get some strategy forum restrictions. I feel so bad for great players like Avilo and Link0 getting shittalked by gold league champions who think they've figured out the entire game. It's just a joke now. I feel about sc2 strategy the way I feel about the battlenet forums. It doesn't matter how good your post is and what you say because the noobs will just flock to it and spout nonsense nonstop until your OP is so covered in bullshit that you have wade up to your eyeballs in it to find any good information.
TL please do something. =[
Edit: and to keep this reasonably on track:
Voidrays should be changed dramtically. I'm not talking about little balance tweaks. I want to see a complete unit redesign. Blizzard should've realized they botched the voidray in beta, but I think amidst the chaos of balancing out marine/scv allins and other more pressing matters it got overlooked by the community. I do think that most people simply don't comprehend how the voidray is bad game design, but I assure everyone that link0 is right - it is.
The funny thing is that Link0 makes it sound like P players haven't been dealing with similar builds (such as 3/1/2, 1/1/2, or any 1/1/1 tech push which you have to counter blind half the time) for the most part. If I have to get a VR redesign then Mauraders / Banshees / Medivacs / Mules / etc. need a redesign too. Most players don't realize that high level P players gamble alot and blindly counter half the time, because they are reactionary for the most part until way late in the game.
Indeed this specific build is very strong and forces a certain reactions, but so do many other builds from T, so I'm not seeing much of a difference here. T's are allowed to have builds that force P to react in a certain way or play blind, while P aren't? That's just biased thinking.
I'm not the best player ever, but by no means I am no gold champion scrub (1400 Diamond). VRs I do agree are very OP in this specific strategy and in these specific situations, but so are many units (Marine/Banshee/Raven anyone?)
And no, the suggestion of blind Viking counter is not bad considering most T's build them to deal with Colossai/snipe Obs anyways. Adding a viking or two to your build is not going to cripple you at all, especially if it can prevent all-innish cheese like this.
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On October 10 2010 17:05 ikester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 15:44 iEchoic wrote:
Yeah, I must post in this thread again. This thing is sort of a bitch.
I just played Katari, who everyone said kept void raying them. I thought "great, I'm going to hard counter this and see how it goes". As soon as he left my ramp and I knew it was coming I threw down 2 more bunkers which are basically necessary, he poked back up my ramp, saw it, and just left his proxy pylon (which I'm assuming he was going to build his stargate at) and fast expanded. I had two worthless vikings and wasted bunkers. I ended up being significantly behind.
Bleh. I hate Void Rays but you definitely can't assume Void Ray everytime. This just diminishes the argument because you blindly assumed void ray vs. people who are actually looking for it. If you assume that you'll die everytime to a specific build then I promise that you'll die every time to something you didn't guess.
He actually proxied a pylon outside my base that I assume he was going to build a stargate at, so I believe he realized I was going to counter it and just switched, because he kept poking up and checking up on me. So I believe I was countering the right strategy, at least initially.
To the post above ikester's, I'm in bed on my laptop now, but I'll hopefully upload it in the morning.
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I'm not entirely in love with voidrays in sc2. there was no strange units like this in bw - in bw there was only straight up damage and basic spells.
While voidrays add an interesting dynamic to sc2, they own new players too easily and seem kind of gimmicky on the whole.
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On October 10 2010 12:07 Floophead_III wrote:
And no, the suggestion of blind Viking counter is not bad considering most T's build them to deal with Colossai/snipe Obs anyways. Adding a viking or two to your build is not going to cripple you at all, especially if it can prevent all-innish cheese like this.
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
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you could have pushed him at the start of game 2, after his ff he still only had 1sentry and one zealot
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On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
Protoss has to build robo just to be safe and till now that hasn't been ludicrious.
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Obs are overall very utilitarian. A viking isn't if the Protoss ended up 4 gating. Or getting DT. Or getting Robo with Immortal.
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o hai mr. 2000pt diamond dude, perhaps you should have let your fellow 2000 pt diamond, Huk, know about this before he went down to a Terran yesterday. Or to all the Protoss who lost in PvT matchups at the GSL Open a week or two ago. It's not like some of those players are paid to figure out how to win.
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On October 10 2010 18:00 Delarchon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
Protoss has to build robo just to be safe and till now that hasn't been ludicrious.
it's terran we are talking about - haven't you read the thread, obviously terran should never have to prepare for stuff they can't scout; it's the other races that are supposed to do this
@iEchoic: come on now, one viking is a extremely MINOR investment, given that your opponent obviously had to change his whole gameplan after seeing you were preparing for his build; if he planned to throw down a stargate, then his expo-timing was completely random, he just did it because he paniced;
why on earth is it justified that protoss has to get 2 observers when we see starport with tech-lab (danger of cloak) for 50/200 while it's supposedly totally ludicrous to get one viking for 150/75 when you suspect a void ray opening;
seriously, why the hell has each terran here so many problems putting himself in the shoes of protoss once in a while? and seeing that protoss makes many kinda useless investments game after game just to be safe against stupid stuff? examples needed?
I play with one gate robo and start chronoboosting an immortal immediately after my observer is out to be safe against early aggression (kiwikaki does it every game, huk does it occasionally); now when terran goes PURE marine and goes towards marine/banshee/raven, well there goes 250/100 for an immortal into the drain because immortals are utter crap both vs marines and vs banshees; but hey, do we complain? noo....we accept that this is life, if terran commits to marauders early then one immortal can mean the difference between living and dieing; if I adapt properly I can still win once in a while;
also protoss chrono-boosts out a stalker immediately to not lose probes vs an early reaper that never comes but "could" come; I'd much rather go zealot/sentry (as do many korean pros nowadays who apparently take the risk of reaper-harass once in a while)
but somehow one viking blind is suddenly supposed to mean auto-loss for terran
really?
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On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
p has to with going robo to counter any possibilty of banshee
On October 10 2010 18:02 ikester wrote:
Obs are overall very utilitarian. A viking isn't if the Protoss ended up 4 gating. Or getting DT. Or getting Robo with Immortal.
you can still make medivacs out of the starport. 1 "wrong" unit wont loose you the game(99% of the time)
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@iEchoic:
Katari expo'd instead of stargate, you have a starport and two bunkers.
At this point, you salvage the bunkers and expo yourself and proceed to dropship harass. You may end up slightly behind, but that's what you get for preparing for something that didn't come. How is this unplayable?
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Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:02 ikester wrote:
Obs are overall very utilitarian. A viking isn't if the Protoss ended up 4 gating. Or getting DT. Or getting Robo with Immortal. you can still make medivacs out of the starport. 1 "wrong" unit wont loose you the game(99% of the time)
So basically losing all opportunities to be aggressive early against protoss is fair right?
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On October 10 2010 18:44 Cephei wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:02 ikester wrote:
Obs are overall very utilitarian. A viking isn't if the Protoss ended up 4 gating. Or getting DT. Or getting Robo with Immortal. you can still make medivacs out of the starport. 1 "wrong" unit wont loose you the game(99% of the time) So basically losing all opportunities to be aggressive early against protoss is fair right?
to put it simply:
YES
protoss loses all opportunities to be aggressive vs terran because so many ressources go into scouting for crazy stuff like cloaked banshees; why the hell do you (as many other T-players obviously) seriously believe, terran is supposed to be able to dominate the midgame on the open field vs protoss "by default" just because of playing terran?
I can't emphazise enough, how this aspect indeed brings more balance because there is finally one protoss-build around that makes terran actually crap their pants and forces them to be less aggressive; protoss can't leave its base against 1/1/1(2) anyways, otherwise my mineral-line just dies vs pre-igniter-hellions or banshees (cloaked or uncloaked won't matter when I don't have anti-air in my base)
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On October 10 2010 18:24 amaGAWD wrote:
you can still make medivacs out of the starport. 1 "wrong" unit wont loose you the game(99% of the time)
It's not one unit though. Making medivac doesn't do you any good in that early of a stage of the game, you need units to deal with the Protoss army that (obviously) doesn't need an equivalent option to the medivac. Medivacs and, to a lesser extent, Ghosts are inherently defense options. As I said before if someone sneaks a 4 gate, or even if the T mis-gussed and the P is 2-3 gate roboing. That Starport has no purpose unless the P decides to rush to collosus, which, if the P player is trying to scout somewhat with the Ob is made, then he's an idiot.
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On October 10 2010 18:49 sleepingdog wrote:
protoss loses all opportunities to be aggressive vs terran because so many ressources go into scouting for crazy stuff like cloaked banshees; why the hell do you (as many other T-players obviously) seriously believe, terran is supposed to be able to dominate the midgame on the open field vs protoss "by default" just because of playing terran?
I can't emphazise enough, how this aspect indeed brings more balance because there is finally one protoss-build around that makes terran actually crap their pants and forces them to be less aggressive; protoss can't leave its base against 1/1/1(2) anyways, otherwise my mineral-line just dies vs pre-igniter-hellions or banshees (cloaked or uncloaked won't matter when I don't have anti-air in my base)
This isn't true.
Depending on the map, P has plenty of options of be aggressive early on. And the game should not be so stifling as to completely get rid of any early option Terran has, that's just ludicrous.
Even in TvP in BW, an option of a proxy rax was still viable. : /
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On October 10 2010 18:53 ikester wrote:
This isn't true.
Depending on the map, P has plenty of options of be aggressive early on.
then enlighten me please
if I move out I have to be "extremely" careful because once I get on the losing edge I lose everything vs concussive;
if I move out and terran goes for hellion-drop I can gg (happened to me often enough)
if I move out and terran goes for fast banshee-harass without cloak I can gg (happend to me often enough)
and finally the classic:
if I move out and terran just drops me with stimmed marauders I can gg
the only option for early aggression are chrono-boosted immortals; but then again the zealot/sentry/immortal-combo is the basic definition of "slow and immobile"
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On October 10 2010 18:50 ikester wrote:
As I said before if someone sneaks a 4 gate, or even if the T mis-gussed and the P is 2-3 gate roboing. That Starport has no purpose unless the P decides to rush to collosus, which, if the P player is trying to scout somewhat with the Ob is made, then he's an idiot.
I really didn't understand before this thread that Protoss can do so many different builds so that Terran has no way of knowing.
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On October 10 2010 18:21 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:00 Delarchon wrote:On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
Protoss has to build robo just to be safe and till now that hasn't been ludicrious. it's terran we are talking about - haven't you read the thread, obviously terran should never have to prepare for stuff they can't scout; it's the other races that are supposed to do this @iEchoic: come on now, one viking is a extremely MINOR investment, given that your opponent obviously had to change his whole gameplan after seeing you were preparing for his build; if he planned to throw down a stargate, then his expo-timing was completely random, he just did it because he paniced;
You can't counter the push with one viking. The rest of your post is just general veiled whining about TvP. If you have a problem with TvP balance or game design then please complain about it somewhere else. I don't care to have a stupid race-war with you, I just want to talk about this build.
I've played against this build several times now and you absolutely need multiple vikings and/or multiple bunkers to hold it off. You can't hold off two charged void rays and multiple stalkers with a handful of marines and a viking.
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This sounds may sound abit contrived but how are you not scouting a Proxy Stargate? You don't even have to scout the Stargate to know it has been proxied...
If a toss has gone early double gas (you should be able to tell from your first scout) and prod the front of their base only to see a few gas intensive units then a further scan to see what the tech looks like only to see he has very few gas intensive structures and units, what else could they possibly be going? It's 150voidray for the initial stargate and another 150gas for each Voidray
Toss and Zerg have to prod the front of Terrans base quite often just to figure out what they are going, maybe this is just a shift in play style because Terran have always dictated the pace of the game and the tech that the other races choose. Truthfully, I wish more of Zerg/Protoss play forced Terran to prod/scout/scan much like Toss and Zerg have to right now with Terran.
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On October 10 2010 19:15 Dommk wrote:
This sounds may sound abit contrived but how are you not scouting a Proxy Stargate? You don't even have to scout the Stargate to know it has been proxied...
If a toss has gone early double gas (you should be able to tell from your first scout) and prod the front of their base only to see a few gas intensive units then a further scan to see what the tech looks like only to see he has very few gas intensive structures and units, what else could they possibly be going? It's 150voidray for the initial stargate and another 150gas for each Voidray
Toss and Zerg have to prod the front of Terrans base quite often just to figure out what they are going, maybe this is just a shift in play style because Terran have always dictated the pace of the game and the tech that the other races choose. Truthfully, I wish more of Zerg/Protoss play forced Terran to prod/scout/scan much like Toss and Zerg have to right now with Terran.
I think a 2000 diamond terran would be aware of this already.
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On October 10 2010 19:27 Cephei wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 19:15 Dommk wrote:
This sounds may sound abit contrived but how are you not scouting a Proxy Stargate? You don't even have to scout the Stargate to know it has been proxied...
If a toss has gone early double gas (you should be able to tell from your first scout) and prod the front of their base only to see a few gas intensive units then a further scan to see what the tech looks like only to see he has very few gas intensive structures and units, what else could they possibly be going? It's 150voidray for the initial stargate and another 150gas for each Voidray
Toss and Zerg have to prod the front of Terrans base quite often just to figure out what they are going, maybe this is just a shift in play style because Terran have always dictated the pace of the game and the tech that the other races choose. Truthfully, I wish more of Zerg/Protoss play forced Terran to prod/scout/scan much like Toss and Zerg have to right now with Terran. I think a 2000 diamond terran would be aware of this already.
I think he doesn't, as in both the replays he provided,he did neither.
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On October 10 2010 19:01 iEchoic wrote:
You can't counter the push with one viking. The rest of your post is just general veiled whining about TvP. If you have a problem with TvP balance or game design then please complain about it somewhere else. I don't care to have a stupid race-war with you, I just want to talk about this build.
tbh the rest of the post wasn't directed at you but at all the (other) T-whiners around here who just think it's utterly unfair that terran can't be aggressive without scouting as usual; and to be fair, if you look into the other threads, the amount of QQ here is definitely above average;
I can't remember reading much QQ in your hellion-drop-thread although it definitely prevents protoss from moving out of his base for good
I've played against this build several times now and you absolutely need multiple vikings and/or multiple bunkers to hold it off. You can't hold off two charged void rays and multiple stalkers with a handful of marines and a viking.
no but you can't really charge up void rays on a pylon while a viking is shooting at them; also the first viking normally comes (or should come) right when the protoss is preparing to engage, so it will really screw up his attack-timing; if you don't see...nothing with your viking cruising outside of your base, then he obviously won't be charging his void ray up any time soon
again, the first viking is there to screw up the charge-up-process; when he brings the rest of his army, you should bring yours as well - which should be larger given that 2 void rays is 500/300, you should have built something from your money at this point? I'm sure you agree on this one;
to cut the long story short: I have yet to see a protoss with void rays going into a fight in a pro-level-game where the void rays are NOT charged and the protoss wins despite of this; preventing the charge-up with the first viking normally enables the terran to win quite comfortably
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On October 10 2010 19:57 sleepingdog wrote:
preventing the charge-up with the first viking normally enables the terran to win quite comfortably
How do you prevent a void ray from charging when it's attacking a pylon outside of your base surrounded by stalkers? It's not possible.
I really feel like you've never used or played against this build. Have you? Your advice is good for generic void ray rushes but doesn't work on this strategy.
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On October 10 2010 20:02 iEchoic wrote:
I really feel like you've never used or played against this build. Have you? Your advice is good for generic void ray rushes but doesn't work on this strategy.
sure I have; I even provided a replay on the possible void ray abuse on shakuras with charge-up on the rocks just recently here if you are interested (no GG, just for demonstration):
- but as I said:
a) your viking should come faster; this is a timing-problem, if he is already charging up outside your base when your viking arrives, then something went wrong; baracks --> factory --> starport --> viking simply is faster than gateway --> core --> stargate ---> void rays, unless he proxies the void rays right outside your base and comes with his first ray immediately
b) if you ralley your viking outside your base you should be able to intercept; then it's as you yourself have said earlier: it's not hard to beat the stalker/void-ray-combo when they are NOT charged up already
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On October 10 2010 19:15 Dommk wrote:
This sounds may sound abit contrived but how are you not scouting a Proxy Stargate? You don't even have to scout the Stargate to know it has been proxied...
If a toss has gone early double gas (you should be able to tell from your first scout) and prod the front of their base only to see a few gas intensive units then a further scan to see what the tech looks like only to see he has very few gas intensive structures and units, what else could they possibly be going? It's 150voidray for the initial stargate and another 150gas for each Voidray
Toss and Zerg have to prod the front of Terrans base quite often just to figure out what they are going, maybe this is just a shift in play style because Terran have always dictated the pace of the game and the tech that the other races choose. Truthfully, I wish more of Zerg/Protoss play forced Terran to prod/scout/scan much like Toss and Zerg have to right now with Terran.
Because, like I said, until I see what his post-cyber core tech was I don't know what it was. In this example it could easily be a robo bay. 100 for the bay,100 for the immortal being cranked out, a sentry and a stalker and a zealot at the top of the ramp. Perfectly normal set up for any of the 3 teching paths. Could be fucken anything, and the robo bay could be anywhere in his base. Unfortunately, Blizzard decided mains should be larger than the size of a scan, so how am I to know for sure unless I actually fucking see it.
So no, your argument has been rendered invalid.
Like I said, it is impossible to ensure I find out what his tech is, just like in BW, so I need a standard opening that can help out against all possible Protoss builds. Unfortunately, we haven't quite figured out our SC2 equivelent of Siege FE/Fake Double, and the power of the void ray makes this kind of difficult. Conversely, Protoss have not figured out their 1 gate FE, so don't bother pointing that out.
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Regardless of the specific builds/balance, I have to agree that the void ray design seems flawed and would like to see them changed as per op's recommendation. If they are meant to be a counter to big stuff and get countered by masses of small stuff, making them lose charge when switching targets should have been a no-brainer, otherwise a critical mass of charged void rays annihilates small stuff with shift clicking just as surely as they annihilate big stuff.
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On October 10 2010 20:17 iaguz wrote:
Because, like I said, until I see what his post-cyber core tech was I don't know what it was. In this example it could easily be a robo bay. 100 for the bay,100 for the immortal being cranked out, a sentry and a stalker and a zealot at the top of the ramp. Perfectly normal set up for any of the 3 teching paths. Could be fucken anything, and the robo bay could be anywhere in his base. Unfortunately, Blizzard decided mains should be larger than the size of a scan, so how am I to know for sure unless I actually fucking see it.
So no, your argument has been rendered invalid.
That is so ridiculous, that is like saying Protoss only sees a tech lab and has no idea what Terran is going.
How about you keep prodding his ramp? Or spend more scans? Or use some general common sense, Protoss can't spread his buildings too far out because if he does and he gets dropped and loses it, apparently it's his fault for doing so, you see people like Kiwikaki pretty much having to wall off their Nexus with buildings just to reduce the effects of drops. Protoss buildings in TvP aren't going to be scattered, if they are they you know for sure something is up.
If he has early double gas then he has no real way of spending that unless he is constantly pumping stalkers and Immortals, if he only has a small stalker force (less than 10) then obviously something is up because with that much gas income he should have significantly more, if it looks like he hasn't spent it all then he is most likely going for some kind of Proxy Stargate build. The Proxy Stargate takes up roughly 40% of the gas income Protoss gets from his early double gas, that tidbit alone should be enough to able to derive his tech choice from his army composition.
If your first prod scan reveals nothing then the second prod/scan at a slightly later timing definitely should, EXACTLY how Protoss/Zerg have to play, but unfortunately, Protoss/Zerg don't have the luxury of scans so Protoss is forced into a robo 99% of the time and Zerg are left hung and dry.
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I understand it's near impossible to scout with certainty the protoss stargate tech but I don't see why a 3-1-1 build isn't safe vs everything. All marines + 2 marauders + fast medivacs is imo safe vs all toss aggresive openings and is aggresive enough to pressure a toss FE. If you notice stargate pressure or fast colossi it can easily switch to viking play as well. You might need a bunker against the voidray pressure build but for the rest it's completely safe imo.
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Correct me if i'm wrong but 1 base protoss cant support all that tech + 3 gate stalker + void rays on just 2 gas. You say 3 void rays ? lol ... that takes ages to build, by that time you should've seen he doesnt have robo bay and start pumping out marines. Yeah i know you people "think" marauders are so imba against stalkers but actually marines fair quite well with stim and combat shields they're the most scary unit ingame if not countered by colossi/tanks/banelings. If you are reeally having trouble with this build ... which you shouldnt tbh, Start banshee rushing or even better ... use bratOK's marine ghost build. He'll have the "three" voidrays (which imho is an exaggeration) and what ... 15 stalkers, when you should have 35ish marines with stim 2-3 ghosts and 3-4 medvacs ... guess who's gonna win that battle. Stop spamming marauders and expecting to win every time tbh. Marines +ghost are the safest opener against protoss tbh. If you see robo bay going up just slap a reactor on your port and start pumping vikings. Srsly, 2000 terran ? wow, what's your win/loss ratio btw against P ?
Edit: I just watched the 2nd replay you posted. SO you're actually complaining a protoss with an allinish push beat you while you went for an early expand ? LOL. Yeah ... voidrays are the problem here, not the fact you werent macroing propperly and didnt invest in any tech instead you chose to expand. Lulz. Seriously, learn BratOK's build, use it and expand as you move out. It crushes almost all the openers toss can do, unless he's going some lame gamble tech like templar rush or 1 gate robo for fast obs and then rush to colossi.
P.S. A standard 4-gate, 5-gate or 3 gate robo would've killed u just as easily. You expect to open with 2x rax and survive an allin push ... good luck with that.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 20:58 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 20:17 iaguz wrote:
Because, like I said, until I see what his post-cyber core tech was I don't know what it was. In this example it could easily be a robo bay. 100 for the bay,100 for the immortal being cranked out, a sentry and a stalker and a zealot at the top of the ramp. Perfectly normal set up for any of the 3 teching paths. Could be fucken anything, and the robo bay could be anywhere in his base. Unfortunately, Blizzard decided mains should be larger than the size of a scan, so how am I to know for sure unless I actually fucking see it.
So no, your argument has been rendered invalid. That is so ridiculous, that is like saying Protoss only sees a tech lab and has no idea what Terran is going. How about you keep prodding his ramp? Or spend more scans? Or use some general common sense, Protoss can't spread his buildings too far out because if he does and he gets dropped and loses it, apparently it's his fault for doing so, you see people like Kiwikaki pretty much having to wall off their Nexus with buildings just to reduce the effects of drops. Protoss buildings in TvP aren't going to be scattered, if they are they you know for sure something is up. If he has early double gas then he has no real way of spending that unless he is constantly pumping stalkers and Immortals, if he only has a small stalker force (less than 10) then obviously something is up because with that much gas income he should have significantly more, if it looks like he hasn't spent it all then he is most likely going for some kind of Proxy Stargate build. The Proxy Stargate takes up roughly 40% of the gas income Protoss gets from his early double gas, that tidbit alone should be enough to able to derive his tech choice from his army composition. If your first prod scan reveals nothing then the second prod/scan at a slightly later timing definitely should, EXACTLY how Protoss/Zerg have to play, but unfortunately, Protoss/Zerg don't have the luxury of scans so Protoss is forced into a robo 99% of the time and Zerg are left hung and dry.
Do you play Terran? If so, at what level? It doesn't sound like you do...
What I've said is true, and you haven't refuted it at all. The difference between my example and your example is the nature of the tech trees and the lead up to them. Like I described with my (very common, happens all the time) example, if I prod the ramp and see a stalker, a sentry and a zealot (or anything similar to that), then it probably means some kind of 1-gate tech build. Now, this part is in caps and bold because it's super important:
THERE IS NO FUCKING WAY TO INFER FROM THIS WHAT THE PROTOSS IS DOING EXACTLY, WHETHER IT BE VOIDS, DT'S OR ROBO BAY.
If I scan and still see nothing, same situation. Maybe he's proxied some dt tech in a hidden part of the map? (like one of the smokestacks in the main on metalopolis, god I fucking hate that area for proxy tech ><) Yes, this is a 'bad' build, I know. Tell that to every protoss that does it (which is like maybe 1% of them, admittedly, but it does happen and it makes me sad ><). Maybe I just didn't see the robo bay because of weird positioning (like he put it behind his mineral line. Goddamn). In quite a few of these cases I cannot 'prod and scan him multiple times' before what tech he is going becomes an issue.
If a protoss sees a marauder, he can correctly infer that I've got a tech lab. If his probe gets slowed by conc shells, there's a bit more information! Before you call bullshit on that, watch some of Kiwikaki's PvT games at IEM and his immortal timings. The first is just a defence against early pressure, but the 2nd-4th is because he sees marauders and knows that cloaked banshees and the 3/1/2 are not going to happen (or if they do, then his obs can see it). Yes, in a few games Kiwi suffered from banshee harass but that was more him having a bad counter harassment set up then the weakness with his build.
What I will suggest is perhaps using that marine/marauder/marauder/reaper opening and trying to slip in that reaper/scout the map. The reaper is pretty damn good at that. It does suck that the reaper opening is very hard to fit into builds which are not that one, but them's the breaks.
EDIT- As for the 3/1/1 build (the one that QXC uses a lot in TvP, check his games against huk to witness it's poweR), hmm, I dunno. That's a tricky one, lot of factors. Perhaps a test is in order? A lot depends on how the terran wrestles the early map control because if he does then the voids don't get to safely charge up on something and are quite impotent as a result.
In theory anyway.
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Ok, I watched the replay, and this is what I think should have happened that could have easily made that game a success:
Had the terran simply scout the incredibly stalker heavy army, pumping out 10-15 stimm'd marauders would have easily A) Taken care of the stalkers and B) destroyed the proxy pylon. No stalkers and no proxy pylon means no ground defense and no charged void ray. From that point on: he would have to make loads of zealots, and try to regain proxy pylon position for his strategy to work. I doubt you'd let that happen. And you now have successfully countered this build.
I'll grant you what I just said is closer to theorycraft than anything else because I play neither Terran nor Protoss; however, I think it's safe to say the design of the void ray is 100% fine and the only reason there haven't been posted counter strategies for this build already is because players like Artosis haven't posted using that strategy and then later posted how he loses by using it. It simply hasn't been tested enough times to come up with a solid counter. But this a progressive game, and I guarantee if this strat becomes more popular, there will be a well-developed way to handle it.
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On October 10 2010 19:01 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:21 sleepingdog wrote:On October 10 2010 18:00 Delarchon wrote:On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
Protoss has to build robo just to be safe and till now that hasn't been ludicrious. it's terran we are talking about - haven't you read the thread, obviously terran should never have to prepare for stuff they can't scout; it's the other races that are supposed to do this @iEchoic: come on now, one viking is a extremely MINOR investment, given that your opponent obviously had to change his whole gameplan after seeing you were preparing for his build; if he planned to throw down a stargate, then his expo-timing was completely random, he just did it because he paniced; You can't counter the push with one viking. The rest of your post is just general veiled whining about TvP. If you have a problem with TvP balance or game design then please complain about it somewhere else. I don't care to have a stupid race-war with you, I just want to talk about this build. I've played against this build several times now and you absolutely need multiple vikings and/or multiple bunkers to hold it off. You can't hold off two charged void rays and multiple stalkers with a handful of marines and a viking.
Marine/Viking should be able to stall the push until you get enough Vikings out to go lol on him. If you went wall off build against a strat that was designed to beat it, that's your fault. So yes, build order nonsense still exists, but this is an all innish strat that one scan should easily tell you what is going on if you time it right. If you see 3 gates but no 4th gate and a lack of troops, you can pretty much tell what's going to happen, and that's a proxy Stargate 99.9% of the time. The T's over here screaming that the P could also Proxy Colossai or Proxy DT are talking nonsense, since both would take way longer then a Proxy Stargate to come out, and the T would instantly know something is up with his scouting Viking at the normal proxy locations (which comes before either come out).
The fact that every T in here has said "scan does not work" goes to show you that alot of them have been either spoiled by SC2 or don't simply know how to play BW T, because early scan was critical in BW for T information early on, as that was the only way for them to scout other then building floating/vultures, which are not nearly as good as Reapers at scouting (cliff jumping). That one scan was the difference between living and dying in BW. If you say "scan does not work" then obviously some people here haven't been playing/watching recently, because that early scan is pretty much T's life line as to what to do after 1 Rax FE/Siege FE.
Alot of this wouldn't sound so QQ if the people here could actually provide replays of this all-in 1 base push working against top level players. I mean, it's not like T doesn't have 50 different ways to do exactly the same thing, so I don't see what's up with giving P one strat that finally makes them the aggressor early to mid game. Do I think VRs could use some redesigning? Absolutely. I would not mind at all; however, there are problems that far exceed an all-in 1 base strat that is EASILY scouted if you had a brain at all.
How many times have P players lost because of build order lottery against T at GSL/recent tournaments? How many times have T lost to build order lottery at top levels at recent tournaments against P? Just because finally a build has been discovered that puts you on the receiving end of your medicine, every T is now up and arms about "wow nerf this BS". So now you actually have to defend and have some reactionary skills, and you and other T's are up in arms about how VRs are bad design, OP, etc. force T to play blind (which they don't), etc.? P players could easily respond that Ravens are bad design, Banshees are bad design, the whole T race is a bad design. This strat just RECENTLY was discovered, it hasn't even been used at the highest levels, and no one has even put any real effort into developing a counter to it, and all the T's have said "wow, this is OP/bad design because I have to actually defend and have some reactionary skills for once instead of blindly building whatever I want and doing whatever the hell I want while still being safe."
It is pretty simple for the most part; the OP just simply got way outplayed and is rage posting. He expanded, 1-1-1 tech, and didn't even cut any workers for the most part, and he's going on about how VRs are bad design when virtually any of P's 1 base all-in could have beaten him. Do not get me wrong. I do think that such strats like these influence the metagame heavily, and are bad for it. I do however, think it's also funny that T players are QQing so hard when no one has even put in time and effort into figuring out a counter (that means more then 1 game).
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I said this before and I'll say again. As protoss I have to deal with banshee/rines/raven. You as terran have to deal with vrays 3 gate stalk. It's not imbalance and stop QQ'ing. If done perfectly it's very hard to counter but it's not impossible.
People rely on having the ultimate strat. It's also a game of risk & rewards with proper multitasking. Why do you think tourneys are bo5 bo7? It's because the best player is the one who can adapt to most situations. Let's say tester this did vray 3 gate stalker and won 2 games in a row, then hopetorture would be stupid to not try a completely diff strat to pressure tester when he is weakest and it's in the early stage.
I wouldn't be surprise if linko played custom game with this toss friend and tried many diff things but still lost then call it flawed and imba. Anyone ever tried thinking outside the box and this toss dude just knows how to beat linko coz he knows his strengths/weaknesses?
I haven't seen many of his games but judging from the 2 replays he provided it's clear he's more concentrated on his BOs rather than showing flexibility and adapting to the other player's strat. If he was serious about winning he would throw down a scan and see that vrays are coming. That's how you beat it. Look you think those pros at gsl love to scan and waste a mule? No but they understand that information and adaptation is more important than concentrating on your own BOs.... "it's not about: "oh but I need that mule so I can have the perfect timing for my ultimate build order"."
Like if I don't scout the banshee/rine/ravens it's my fault, I'm not gonna QQ and say well PDD is flawed or Cloak should take longer to research or marines should cost vespene gas. Now I'll stay mature and understand that strat is good at countering certain toss tendencies, I must try new ones (warp prism, phoenix hallu, etc) or resort back to older tendencies (the ultimate old and proven 4gate proxy) to counter it.
That's why I think most qq about imba is flawed because it's base around ladder play. Yes ladder play is a good ground for looking at balancing issues but because it's a 1 game ladder system it is not optimal. Look at tl or sc2 forums. It was a constant qq about T OP, not it's P OP. NA/EU players say T is OP, Asian no P is OP. All I can conclude from this it's that it's a constant battle on who's got the upper hand but since it swing back and forth it's pretty balanced.
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Its not worth it to make a wall of quotes, just read the whole sleeepingdog posts in the whole thread. The guy may not be the most finger-skilled player, but technically he has said exactly how protoss feel about TvP, and in this case the hilarious terran complains. Let´s see.
On October 10 2010 18:57 sleepingdog wrote:
if I move out I have to be "extremely" careful because once I get on the losing edge I lose everything vs concussive;
if I move out and terran goes for hellion-drop I can gg (happened to me often enough)
if I move out and terran goes for fast banshee-harass without cloak I can gg (happend to me often enough)
and finally the classic:
if I move out and terran just drops me with stimmed marauders I can gg
the only option for early aggression are chrono-boosted immortals; but then again the zealot/sentry/immortal-combo is the basic definition of "slow and immobile"
This is the basic, this. This is what the terran can´t see. P has always has to adapt to what terran do, scout and try to counter. Expreme caution is advised in a aganist terran.
Terran can go 1-1-1, 2-1-1, 1-1-2, 3 rax, Marine all-in, Banshees, hellions drop, proxys rax, proxy bunker, proxy factory, banshees, simply drop, fake push+drop,and as a toss player, im sure there are more im forgetting (sure, half can be scouted, but thats not the point). There is so so much builds/posibilities the terran have in this game with a lot of dps per cost, aka lot of efficiency.
For those who asked yesterday "why Huk don´t go templar tech? Why he always (like all korean pro P) go robo?" Because of the huge T builds/units versatility/movility, P must invest in observers or is probably dead.
Now going back on this post, and on-topic. What you, T gentlemen are saying (aka complaining) are the same things what P has to deal with in TvP... or even less. Why T can not invest in safety? Why T should always take the initiative?
I honestly don´t have an answer about what BO T must do aganist VR rush variety, but i can tell you one thing. VR are not OP (maybe have a crappy mechanic as many unpolished things in this game). Terrans must learn to adapt to threats, like Zerg adapted to 4-gates and Raks presure, or toss sadlly have to go Robo every non-all-in TvP.
And please...please.. before answer, be sure to check every TvP on mayor tourneys in the last two weeks.
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I never though about that, what a scary build order, having to blindly guess from rays or dts ...
When I watched the replay I just said DTs! and linko started building ravens so I though ha no way he will lose, then I saw startpot and figured I would have lost too ....
Luckly in my level there aint this types of strats xD
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the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about.
Here's Gnial's build
I have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful.
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I've always felt that the charge mechanic does simply too much DPS to have it last indefinitely. I think simply having a limit in seconds on how long the VR can stay fully charged (lets say 45 seconds) would eliminate any issue with the unit. Quite simply VRs are NOT overpowered, but they can become more cost effective than any unit should be allowed if you get a bunch of them on full charge. Full charge VRs will kill any unit thrown at it with HP to spare. So having a limit on how long the VR can be at full charge before it resets to 0 charge would make sense - VR reaches full charge, 45 second timer starts, 45 seconds ends VR returns to 0 charge, process starts all over again.
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I just caught the last game of the zotac finals and Naniwa tried this build, but it seemed quite allin-ish (metalopolis both left hemisphere). First he got pushed into his main by a small bio force and had to defend with probes to ward it off (big delay here), then he pushed with stalkers and void rays, but was warded off by bio. He kept pushing and trying but was up vs an expansion, and eventually failed to break the mass bio and lost.
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Would be so much better if the changed it that way that when they are charged it drains their shield, and when shields out they cant charge.
Something has to change because they are OP in large groups. I played a 50 min game last week and when he had 10+ voidrays it couldnt serisly be stopped not by 20 vikings and bcs .... Its even more fuckinggay when they will just have full mana after first attack so second attack is not even worth trying even if u did "hurt" them first time lol
Void ray op? YESSS
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Engineering bay build time: 35 GS (extremely fast)
Missile turret build time: 25 GS (can build 2/3 at a time)
Stargate warp in time: 60 GS
single Voidray Build time (without chrono boost): 60 GS
Also take in to fact the time it takes the VR to move from the production facility to the main base.
Even if a VR is fully charged, repairing SCV's will keep turrets alive. If VR's try to kill the SCV's, then the turret can have more time working on the VR.
Engineering bays also won't take away from standard bioballs, if anything you can now grab +1 weapons.
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On October 10 2010 02:06 avilo wrote:
The core idea here is that the stargate can be anywhere on the goddamn map, you as the terran have to somehow get an scv to 50 places on the map, without having it killed by a stalker, and then have the foresight to either completely blind build vikings, or happen to find the stargate through sheer scouting luck.
If you do not find it...and didn't pre-emptively build vikings...or didn't go 3 rax...you lose the game. Build order poker is awesome isn't it?
Starport can be anywhere on the goddamn map also and the techlab dosent event have an research animation its even more impossible to scout than voidrays, however i cant scan you too and feel like there is a production building missing. If its fair on one side wich is bad on the other?
You could try to camp is ramp to preven proxy pylon being made to hide the starport? cant hide it if probes cant get our alive. You probably wont be able to camp there forever, but probably long enough to make him build in his base and then you can scout it. Meanwhile, even if i park an observer above your starport all game long and stare at it untill my eyes bleed, i cant know that you have cloak until you use it.
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On October 11 2010 03:36 Zvendetta wrote:
Engineering bay build time: 35 GS (extremely fast)
Missile turret build time: 25 GS (can build 2/3 at a time)
Stargate warp in time: 60 GS
single Voidray Build time (without chrono boost): 60 GS
Also take in to fact the time it takes the VR to move from the production facility to the main base.
Even if a VR is fully charged, repairing SCV's will keep turrets alive. If VR's try to kill the SCV's, then the turret can have more time working on the VR.
Engineering bays also won't take away from standard bioballs, if anything you can now grab +1 weapons.
yes, but a good protoss can avoid your turret and attack at an angle to take out your bunker(s), and then take care of the turret. if you put the turret in front of your bunker, they can just kill it with ground forces.
i think void rays were perfectly fine back when 1/1/1 was viable (pre tank nerf). as of right now, 1/1/1 and 3 rax seem to be the only way to deal with 3 gate proxy void ray, and both builds are bad if the protoss does just about anything else.
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
So lets nerf voids, protoss is back to 100% reaction based vs T. T's will be happy then? Really? Thats fair to you guys?
Also it will be a crushing blow to P anti air which is the worse in the game.
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As a 1250 random player, I hate to agree. For a long time I didn't think voids were an issue, but as I get better and my opponent gets better... I started to see how really crippling it is to a terran. There aren't any non-all-in counters for terran. It takes like 3 rax or 2 reactor rax (with stim and combat shields) constantly pumping marines from the earliest possible moment to even have enough for a pair of charged voids. It reminds me of PvP: "4 gate or die."
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On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful.
Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so.
On October 11 2010 03:48 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 03:36 Zvendetta wrote:
Engineering bay build time: 35 GS (extremely fast)
Missile turret build time: 25 GS (can build 2/3 at a time)
Stargate warp in time: 60 GS
single Voidray Build time (without chrono boost): 60 GS
Also take in to fact the time it takes the VR to move from the production facility to the main base.
Even if a VR is fully charged, repairing SCV's will keep turrets alive. If VR's try to kill the SCV's, then the turret can have more time working on the VR.
Engineering bays also won't take away from standard bioballs, if anything you can now grab +1 weapons. yes, but a good protoss can avoid your turret and attack at an angle to take out your bunker(s), and then take care of the turret. if you put the turret in front of your bunker, they can just kill it with ground forces. i think void rays were perfectly fine back when 1/1/1 was viable (pre tank nerf). as of right now, 1/1/1 and 3 rax seem to be the only way to deal with 3 gate proxy void ray, and both builds are bad if the protoss does just about anything else.
Brat_OK into expand = > Viking transition will shit all over this. Brat_OK's style is actally one of the safest openings in the game in TvP, and is only weak to 1 gate Colossai blind rush with no Observer, and even then you still have plenty of time to switch to Vikings/Mauraders.
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I think we can all agree that Voidrays that are uncharged that go against anything that can hit Air that isn't what they're meant to kill (BC, Thor, etc.) just totally demolishes them. If they raised the min dmg from 5 to let's say 15 and made them have a lower top end thus making it so they kill BC's and Thor's in the same speed but against lower tier lower hp units they don't just get roflstomped if uncharged.
Just something to balance out the "if charged you're taking heavy losses" "if uncharged I just wasted 250/150".
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On October 09 2010 14:27 arterian wrote:
There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming.
Bet you werent saying that when the raoch cost 1 food and had mega regen. The only way to beat mass roach was mass immortal so you need to perfectly scout it. Does that mean its OK no. Things will get adjusted, and it important to express opinions.
As long as its reasonable and well defended with replays and free of H8 unlike BlizzForums.
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while I agree with the OP (I saw this done in the Zotac cup finals today, and T only barely hold it off), the suggestion of reaching charge faster will totally break PvZ.
Zerg needs connected bases and at least 3 queens vs 2 voidrays as it is. With your change I have no idea how many queens would be needed, but as Zerg lacks a T1 anti air unit, it's a bad suggestion.
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200 minerals worth of Marines can already counter 1 Void Ray in seconds, especially with stim. You didn't even attempt to focus fire the Voids in the replays. I could tell you were holding your punches to prove a point. Didn't scout up the ramp with your 2 Marauder/2 Marines against 1 Zealot/1 Sentry because it was too "risky." A fight where Terran loses A-move vs. A-move. The balance of the universe is upset.
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I don't think the 3 warp gate and stargate build is that OP... it's powerful but if it gets slowed down sufficiently for the terran to get cloaked banshees then protoss is in BIG trouble, or if the terran just gets LOTS of marines and uses them well then the strat also fails.
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On October 11 2010 05:10 Jewbacca wrote:
I don't think the 3 warp gate and stargate build is that OP... it's powerful but if it gets slowed down sufficiently for the terran to get cloaked banshees then protoss is in BIG trouble, or if the terran just gets LOTS of marines and uses them well then the strat also fails.
This is the last time I will post in a thread with so many useless comments coming from random idiots. You must have skipped the rest of the thread. How are LOTS of marines going to counter 10+ stalkers, sentry, 3 VR and maybe even probe pull with it? The fact of the matter is, they won't. Like iEchoic and link0 said (the only people really worth listening to here), you pretty much have to blind counter this build, and if you don't get lucky and go against it you've put yourself at an economic disadvantage. JUST today I played one game where I saw 3 gate with low unit count on my scan so I double bunkered my front, and instead my opponent just took FE, went 2 robo colossus and said gg.
Honestly you and many others should be banned for such useless posts here.
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Thing is you don't have to blind counter it. You can actually start building units after the first VR is out and still have enough to win. Its not like you're screwed if you miss the stargate going down, these aren't warp dts with a pylon in your base. If he is going stargate, gate, gate, he will have a ridiculously small army maybe 6-7 units, by the time you have teched up to battlecruisers or whatever it is you wanted. 3 gate stargate is all in, even probe production would have to stop, and in order to get that many stalkers an early sentry and void rays, he'd have to double gas before his second pylon.
If you're trying to be cute when someone makes that much units, you deserve to die.
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This VR material that is coming up has been my main strategy since early in the beta. I have seen many replays of pros that micro VRs quite poorly. I am looking forward to more skilled VR usage in pro games(hope to see it). It is/was nice to be ahead of the SC2 community for a while, with respect to the use of one unit.
Fittingly, the name of one of the diamond divisions I am in has Void Ray in its name.
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The thing isnt its impossible to scout, sure you can see if there is not robo and 3 gates in his base, the problem is what to do then !
By the time you know he's going for a VR push you cant just slam down 3 reactor raxes, you just don't have enough time to build enough marines to deal with the VR's + stalker army, if you just go pure marine his army just rolls you over
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jimpo vs adel
Replay for the game I talked about earlier.
Reading this thread makes it seem like that game should be impossible, afterall he didn't have vikings out, he didn't scout the stargate, he only had one bunker at the front.
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On October 11 2010 06:22 Jaeger wrote:jimpo vs adelReplay for the game I talked about earlier. Reading this thread makes it seem like that game should be impossible, afterall he didn't have vikings out, he didn't scout the stargate, he only had one bunker at the front.
The build isn't designed to beat mass marine+ghost with no walloff. Obviously mass marine ghost with no wall beats it.
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so does one rax marauder, two rax marine (or one reactor rax), and a starport.
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Just did an experiment. Did you know that its possible to keep void rays from ever charging. You just pull back the unit(s) that the void rays are firing upon. This causes the void to switch targets, and the charge time is reset.
Also the way the VR Ai works, it will follow the pulled back unit for a second or so in an attempt to reach its max charge. However this is advantageous cause you can kite the void ray in to range of more your troops.
Pretty pathetic that a Terran would complain about scouting and proxy buildings. Given those are Terran advantages. If your uncomfortable missing tech with a scan. Scout with a Rax, Hold the Xelnaga's, count units, or sac a marine or 2 to just go around scouting in the backs of unused mains and stuff.
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I am watching the first replay now and at around 26 to 40 supply'ish the protoss had 1 stalker out and that was it, you couldve easily sent in an scv to scout or hellion or whatever. (I am talking about the toss's supply btw)
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I kind of want to argue the same thing against the 1 raven-4 banshee-marine push. It is impossible to stop if you don't know it's coming, and even if you do it's quite hard.
If you scan or scout the stargate you can just push up his ramp with relative ease and force tons of probes to come. He may or may not have a sentry, even if he does it's quite hard. You even see players opening gate-cyber-gate having to pull probes off just for a stupid ass small army produced out of 2 rax. It's ridiculous. (happened in the GSL all time, pretty much every TvP Maka was in and a few more)
On October 11 2010 06:45 Cyanocyst wrote:
Just did an experiment. Did you know that its possible to keep void rays from ever charging. You just pull back the unit(s) that the void rays are firing upon. This causes the void to switch targets, and the charge time is reset.
That's why no one charges on units.
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On October 11 2010 05:49 lizzuma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 05:10 Jewbacca wrote:
I don't think the 3 warp gate and stargate build is that OP... it's powerful but if it gets slowed down sufficiently for the terran to get cloaked banshees then protoss is in BIG trouble, or if the terran just gets LOTS of marines and uses them well then the strat also fails. This is the last time I will post in a thread with so many useless comments coming from random idiots. You must have skipped the rest of the thread. How are LOTS of marines going to counter 10+ stalkers, sentry, 3 VR and maybe even probe pull with it? The fact of the matter is, they won't. Like iEchoic and link0 said (the only people really worth listening to here), you pretty much have to blind counter this build, and if you don't get lucky and go against it you've put yourself at an economic disadvantage. JUST today I played one game where I saw 3 gate with low unit count on my scan so I double bunkered my front, and instead my opponent just took FE, went 2 robo colossus and said gg. Honestly you and many others should be banned for such useless posts here.
Random idiots?
The only people worth listening?
Protoss for the past 2 months have had to play blind for the most part until observer, play super defensive, can't expand, can't tech too quickly or risk getting Stim timing attacked, has to spread out pylons to avoid drops, play perfect, and come up with the goods late game to win games.
The amount of whining over a strategy where you can run him over easy with any 2/3 rax variation early aggression is hilarious. If you scan and see what he's doing (which you should clearly be able to do based off his troop count, his Gateway count, and the lack of Robo bay or no fast observer in your base during a certain point), this strat totally fails.
Marine/Ghost opening beats this build and is pretty much safe versus all builds (yes, even 1 Gate blind Colossai rushes). 3 Rax Ghost variations are also decent, although they put you back behind on gas a little too much (though grant huge map control since Marine/Maurader/Ghost lols on everything P has until Storm or alot of Colossai). If you are really that scared, open 3 Rax Brat_Ok and expand and play as normal if you think he's not going to go VRs, and if he is, just get tons of Marines out while getting some Vikings out.
It's not even that this build is OP; Just because the roles all of a sudden change with a strategy innovation, doesn't mean anything is OP/bad design. No one has even attempted to put in serious effort into exploiting timing holes (which there are clearly many) in this strat, and all you have are tons of T players coming in here whining that they for once actually have to work for wins rather then blindly tech/expand/eco up without any repercussions. The OP is clearly a better player than me, but this is an all-in build with absolutely no transition whatsoever. It's designed to beat players that do greedy builds, and that was what the OP was doing.
I agree that strategies like these are partially due to bad design, but T has a plethora of timing attacks that are far worse and just as equally as hard to defend against, while coming much earlier. The thing that perplexes me is that P players should be subjected to build order poker but T players shouldn't just because they play T.
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On October 11 2010 06:45 Cyanocyst wrote:
Pretty pathetic that a Terran would complain about scouting and proxy buildings. Given those are Terran advantages. If your uncomfortable missing tech with a scan. Scout with a Rax, Hold the Xelnaga's, count units, or sac a marine or 2 to just go around scouting in the backs of unused mains and stuff.
pretty much this. i don't see how this is a valid discussion. OP pretty much says its difficult to scout and lists ways to nerf VRs. He doesn't even talk about why the design is 'flawed' (title topic) Most builds, if not scouted, are hard to block. VR opening is no exception.
I don't understand why this topic is still open. It should be closed, or at least in blogs.
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On October 11 2010 06:45 Cyanocyst wrote:
Just did an experiment. Did you know that its possible to keep void rays from ever charging.
While nice this is completely useless when the voids come pre-charged at you.
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An other thing about this Stargate build is your are blind, you wont know what the terran is doing. If it happen to be something that will rape you, your dead, There is no way to sneak a probe into terran base once he has a marine. I guess you could research halucination to see what he is up too, but that will kinda reveal what your doing, same thing if you do a real phoenix to scout.
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On October 11 2010 05:49 lizzuma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 05:10 Jewbacca wrote:
I don't think the 3 warp gate and stargate build is that OP... it's powerful but if it gets slowed down sufficiently for the terran to get cloaked banshees then protoss is in BIG trouble, or if the terran just gets LOTS of marines and uses them well then the strat also fails. This is the last time I will post in a thread with so many useless comments coming from random idiots. You must have skipped the rest of the thread. How are LOTS of marines going to counter 10+ stalkers, sentry, 3 VR and maybe even probe pull with it? The fact of the matter is, they won't. Like iEchoic and link0 said (the only people really worth listening to here), you pretty much have to blind counter this build, and if you don't get lucky and go against it you've put yourself at an economic disadvantage. JUST today I played one game where I saw 3 gate with low unit count on my scan so I double bunkered my front, and instead my opponent just took FE, went 2 robo colossus and said gg. Honestly you and many others should be banned for such useless posts here.
Why did you not send an SCV out to scout if he's fast expanding and if he isn't to find if he's proxy'd a stargate or is teching heavily?
Assuming it was Voidrays two bunkers at the front won't help much at all, he can just attack the furthest place from the bunkers and when you pull to deal with Voidrays push with his ground at your front and just bounce you back and forth slowly chipping away at you. Even if he did push at the front with his voidrays, you can't micro your marines (lawl) to focus the voidrays (that might be charged already due to a proxy pylon/assimilator) so you're going to get stomped.
If he is fast expanding then you obviously have a timing window to force a cancel on the expo and or flat out kill him if you can snipe the sentry/s at the top of his ramp.
If you're going to complain about something at least give enough information so others can give you advice on how to deal. Just saying "I saw 3 gate with low unit count on my scan so I double bunkered my front, and instead my opponent just took FE, went 2 robo colossus and said gg." isn't very helpful since we have no idea what BO you went.
Besides all this, you have LOTS of time to prepare for a double robo AFTER a FE.
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proxy stargate are actually very easy to scout. scan him. if you see 3gateways, no robo, 2 gas. . you are likely to get attacked by void rays,
there aren't 100 units type in the game, he's not taking his two gas to produce a sentry based army!
unless he also hides his twilight council which means he's going for DTs, always save 50 energ but its pretty more rare.
If you have time get a reactor starport, 2 vikings to support your marines but actually I prefer medivacs.
a stimmed bioball can counter that pretty well.
And of course, don't forget to harass and prepare to counter attack as soon as you finish defending.
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Since i wasted an hour reading this I might as well leave my opinion. First, people need to read AT LEAST the op before replying. So many pointless posts.
On to the point. The 3 gate VR opening is a very strong, hard to scout, nearly all-in strat. Now the problems that I see from this thread is that, there is really no constructive talk on this. Mostly all terrans defending the "its OP, puts me back, I am dead if I don't scout it and its nearly impossible to scout" while zerg and toss are just saying "HAHA WELCOME TO MY WORLD L2P."
..Really guys? First off, Terrans, most of you that have posted point that you have seen this bo a handful of time, 30 times, blah blah blah. I am not saying that your not capable of figuring this out without playing against the build constantly, but I feel you will soon be seeing this build much more often after this thread, and with increased exposure you will start to see more tell tale signs, whether you want to admit it now or not.
Compare timings to common toss builds. When should you see what units? This is not a L2P response. I just feel that this strat is not THAT commonly used, at least not yet on US/EU servers, and the lack of overall practice and timing tests aren't helping.
The funny thing is, most replays/vods I have seen of toss using this bo do not hide their stargate out of their base. OF COURSE THEY CAN, just saying, majority that I have seen don't even bother, which leads me to believe that terrans have definitely become too passive on scouting and too use to causing reactionary builds. I'm not saying to throw out more scans that is more of a gamble then anything. BUT, I rarely see terrans even see the attack coming before it is at their natural. On anything but short rush distance maps/maps with destructible rocks near natural, I would think that throwing down 2 bunkers, and pushing your forces out to your natural to kill probe/damage pylon before units get their could give a larger window to defend. If you went for a greedy bo and don't have a chance either way, well it happens.
The one thing that kind of worries me for terran though is that I still feel toss hasn't fully refined this strat yet, and it will be better with time as well.
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The power of the void ray strat is immensely overrated imo. Yes it beats up certain builds, like marauder heavy builds, but unlike the OP states there are definately some good counters to it.
I agree completely that it's impossible for terran to know with certainty if the protoss is doing this but it is possible to find the proxy spots for the stargate on most maps. If the stargate isn't proxied the rush comes a fair bit later and it's much easier to stop.
One great terran build order that easily stops the void ray build and is great all around is the build from ITR vs tester game 2. It gets concussive shells, stim and marine shield after eachother ASAP which means stim will be finished the time a voidray rush comes and shield will about 3/4s. It also get all marines with just 2 marauders and reasonably fast medivacs. Not building near the ramp and having a nearly all marine army with stim and shield almost done is fine for stopping this attack really and against a protoss FE you can start dropping while putting down your own expo which usually puts you even.
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i thought a good idea for the VR change if there ever will be one, is to have them keep the charge if they're hitting the same unit after killing the first? kinda like one of these i know how to beat you so as long as im hitting the same unit ill maintain that extra dmg?
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I watched the first replay. why wouldn't you sit an scv or marine outside 2nd to know when units are coming? If you knew, that would've been gg, but also, there was no marine micro focusing down the VRs and you funneled your own units into the ramp. The P didn't have to micro at all. Just leave a unit outside enemy base to scout when army is coming and destroy it while it's on the way and focus VRs with your marines. That would've won the game even with your "bad" build against the VR strat. Also he FFed you from coming into his base, but he only had one sentry, you could've just waited and run up, killed the units then seen the stargate.
No offense to OP or anything, but I find it really hard to believe that a 2000+ T thinks this build is such a problem that VRs need a rework though I do agree that VRs could use a rework though, but for different reasons.
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On October 11 2010 08:53 dp wrote:
Compare timings to common toss builds. When should you see what units? This is not a L2P response. I just feel that this strat is not THAT commonly used, at least not yet on US/EU servers, and the lack of overall practice and timing tests aren't helping.
The thing that gets me is that I so rarely open with a stargate vs terran. Terran AA is just too good to begin with and robo openings are almost always preferred against the inevitable bio ball.
I had no idea so many terrans were freaking out over a void ray opening. Maybe they're all just in this thread, or significantly higher/lower then me on the ladder (1000 point diamond).
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On October 11 2010 10:17 kidd wrote:
I watched the first replay. why wouldn't you sit an scv or marine outside 2nd to know when units are coming? If you knew, that would've been gg, but also, there was no marine micro focusing down the VRs and you funneled your own units into the ramp. The P didn't have to micro at all. Just leave a unit outside enemy base to scout when army is coming and destroy it while it's on the way and focus VRs with your marines. That would've won the game even with your "bad" build against the VR strat. Also he FFed you from coming into his base, but he only had one sentry, you could've just waited and run up, killed the units then seen the stargate.
No offense to OP or anything, but I find it really hard to believe that a 2000+ T thinks this build is such a problem that VRs need a rework though I do agree that VRs could use a rework though, but for different reasons.
Yes, continue to give advice to a player infinitely better than you and berate him on how he should never have an issue with this build ever cause you're so much better.
Jesus christ.
Can you people realize what he's actually trying to say?
Link0 is saying that this build requires very specific, awkward responses, and it works really really well vs most standard openings - so well that it basically automatically wins. Therefore, if T plays standard, they lose. If they play suboptimally, they can win. Any T isn't going to go into a game and say "I'm going to play really stupid and open mass viking with 2 bunkers of marines." T's who open like that lose completely and horribly to fast expands, dt, 4 gate stalker, and other builds. You simply have to get lucky and guess sometimes.
So what you have is a coinflip from both sides:
P says: "Well, lets hope T doesn't scout this allin or blindly do a counter build."
T says: "Well I hope he's doing a weird allin and not just playing standard"
It's too much deviation from standard play for both players, and because of that you'll always have some games lost just to picking the wrong build.
On top of that, voidrays actually aren't amazing vs BCs and do way way way too well vs stalkers and vikings. They're bastardized from their original purpose, in a bad way. They need to be fixed, and have been since the start of beta.
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Kill the rocks.
Kill proxy pylons.
Scout and attack when toss moves out.
No charged void rays.
Not much army left if P keeps 3 VR's charged off it's own units all the way from own base.
Should be time to kill the rocks before 10+ stalkers and 3 void rays come out.
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Here's my two cents to the topic.
This build order is very hard to stop based on one thing that im sure a lot of you guys missed reading. the voidrays are pre-charged on the proxy pylon/units BEFORE he attacked. the point is, charged voidrays are just doing incredible amounts of damage to everything.
yes void rays can be countered by marines as a lot of people are exclaiming out loud, or vikings.but nothing in this game counters CHARGED voidrays, which is the issue here.the stalkers needs marauders to be countered with, the voidrays require marines/vikings. however i repeat,charged voidrays are just too awesome to be stopped.
another thing in the OP mentioned, is that its hard to see it coming due to the fact that the stargates etc can be proxied/hidden. to all those people claiming "scouting will win", yes thats correct,but what are the chances you will be able to find that hidden tech on time? or that they even let you scout the hidden tech with your scv without intercepting and killing it? there's a ton of variables, which will result in a probable scouting denial of the hidden tech and there's NOTHING that terrans can do.
so we move on to the topic of counter.i've read people recommending stuff like blind vikings, or Bratok's build will hard counter etc etc. i agree,it will counter most of the time. but have you read the most important part of the OP that i've emphasised up there? charged voidrays are just too good,even against their hardcounters(marines/vikings). there's no way to stop charged voidrays if the protoss brings them to you ALREADY CHARGED. he's not going to charge on YOUR buildings letting you get free shots at them,he's bringing them in as the hammer for the stalker's anvil.
so to conclude this post, the voidrays are flawed in design as they do too little damage when not charged, and waaaaay too much when charged. people who's claiming "well dont let him charge up in the 1st place" is missing the point. he can always charge up on his units/buildings before attacking. and there's nothing you can do to stop 3-4 charged voidrays+stalkers
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simply put. when terran has all the builds that dictate pace of the game causeing other races to play reactively the game is working as intended.
but when protoss or zerg get a build that cause terran TO HAVE to react its a design flaw and needs to be nerfed.
terran players, and even seems even the top terran players have gotten to sucked into the notion that they are the ones who should be dictating pace, now when something comes along to chalange that analogy they find them selves struggleing. protoss players who have had to react to terans build orders now have an all in means to keep greedy terrans on their toes.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 10:50 TyrantPotato wrote:
simply put. when terran has all the builds that dictate pace of the game causeing other races to play reactively the game is working as intended.
but when protoss or zerg get a build that cause terran TO HAVE to react its a design flaw and needs to be nerfed.
terran players, and even seems even the top terran players have gotten to sucked into the notion that they are the ones who should be dictating pace, now when something comes along to chalange that analogy they find them selves struggleing. protoss players who have had to react to terans build orders now have an all in means to keep greedy terrans on their toes.
this just reek of Terran-Hate and total ignorance.
please read my post on top before replying again. its not about a build that cause a reactionary response, its about the voidray design in this build which is just too good for a viable counter.
builds that cause a reactionary response are around for all races. infact technically you have to react no matter what to whatever build you see
kcdc Fast expand - terran scouts it,respond with either early aggression trying to punish the FE, or FE himself. its a reaction right?
4gate - the terran comes into the game planning to 2-3rax FE, he sees the 4gate, he respond with bunkers or stopping the expansion altogether. wow look! another reaction?
please do not spread your hating of a particular race around the forums is all im trying to say. keep an objective mind and actually read what is being discussed. applies to a lot of people here, im just taking you as a newest example of the silly race biasedness im seeing here. SC2 is a game,have fun with all the races.
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Not sure what is so bad about building some vikings first from a starport myself.
They beat voidray and robo and are only soso against DT openings. (They can still scout the Toss's base and contribute to ground army a bit.) It delays your drops a bit, but even if they go DTs you'll want the port up for ravens.
Seems like most of the complaints are that the Terran might not be able to blindly go whichever optimized build order they wanted to use. They would have to use a less optimal, more broad opening the same way Protoss has to open into Robo nearly every PVT instead of going straight for charge/storm tech like they want to do. I know this would probably be new to most terran who have had the good fortune to nearly always be the agressor, but it's fine and you'll get used to it. Play might get a bit stale with so few openings available to each race, but we can fix VRs when we fix Terran BOs.
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Watching the replays, it's pretty obvious what the mistakes were. Didn't bother to scout past the initial SCV, assumed a 4 gate or gate/robo, got surprised and lost. The same build with two immortals instead of rays would have broken your front as well on the first replay. You could have pushed earlier instead of poking the front once and backing off after a FF. Hint, FF's without even attempting a split are generally a sign that toss can't deal with your army (or doesn't want to force a confrontation). There was like a 2 minute window where you clearly had a stronger army.
On October 11 2010 10:37 Mithhaike wrote:
yes void rays can be countered by marines as a lot of people are exclaiming out loud, or vikings.but nothing in this game counters CHARGED voidrays, which is the issue here.the stalkers needs marauders to be countered with, the voidrays require marines/vikings. however i repeat,charged voidrays are just too awesome to be stopped.
Hurr durr stim is a bitch too. Void rays are an expensive high-damage unit.
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Let me say this; This is really good on a few maps (like, can't stop it if you scout it just a bit too late) such as shakuras or something with rocks to keep the charge on or something silly like that, but that's more of blizzard's obsession with breakable rocks. If you choose to wall off your ramp with anything BUT a bunker or two, expect to take a ton of damage, since you're pretty much guaranteed to lose whatever buildings you decided to use for your wall.
Does the V-ray need some tweaking? Possibly. However, coming out and crying "IMBA IMBA FLAWED" really is a knee-jerkish way to go about it.
Since this thread will likely spur more of this type of strat, everyone should just back off from calling "L2P" and "IMBA" and try to beat it/use it. As the counter gets fleshed out more, and people learn out to fend it off better (yes, it IS awkward and hard to fight off, but All-ins should be difficult to fight off since it's DO OR DIE most of the time) and eventually it'll just be another tool in the arsenal that could get pulled out.
Now, if say in a week or two's time, it becomes evident (through many replays) that this is WAY OVERKILL to fend off, then I'd have no problem with a redesign of the V-ray that means it isn't relegated to the dumpster like the reaper.
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I think theres 20 pages of people getting PUNK'D is a terran really complaining about a build where all they need to do is scout it to stop it, when their macro mechanic reveals any area of the map........................
thats for Steve ;P
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On October 11 2010 10:58 Mithhaike wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 10:50 TyrantPotato wrote:
simply put. when terran has all the builds that dictate pace of the game causeing other races to play reactively the game is working as intended.
but when protoss or zerg get a build that cause terran TO HAVE to react its a design flaw and needs to be nerfed.
terran players, and even seems even the top terran players have gotten to sucked into the notion that they are the ones who should be dictating pace, now when something comes along to chalange that analogy they find them selves struggleing. protoss players who have had to react to terans build orders now have an all in means to keep greedy terrans on their toes.
this just reek of Terran-Hate and total ignorance. please read my post on top before replying again. its not about a build that cause a reactionary response, its about the voidray design in this build which is just too good for a viable counter. builds that cause a reactionary response are around for all races. infact technically you have to react no matter what to whatever build you see kcdc Fast expand - terran scouts it,respond with either early aggression trying to punish the FE, or FE himself. its a reaction right? 4gate - the terran comes into the game planning to 2-3rax FE, he sees the 4gate, he respond with bunkers or stopping the expansion altogether. wow look! another reaction? please do not spread your hating of a particular race around the forums is all im trying to say. keep an objective mind and actually read what is being discussed. applies to a lot of people here, im just taking you as a newest example of the silly race biasedness im seeing here. SC2 is a game,have fun with all the races.
so going along with your above post's notion you would agree that banshee is flawed?
if you dont have detection its end of game. is that a design flaw.
or perhaps DT's
again if no detection you lose. is that a design flaw.
or to the void rays thats being discussed. precharging it before battle to give you an advantage is that a design flaw.
the answer to all three is no.
they are to punish holes in builds. or in the void rays case, give an advantage to the toss player who has the mental capacity to precharge before a battle to increase their chance to win that confrontation.
its like terran 1 A'ing their mmm ball into something. sure its a strong army but can be defeated.
then if a terran stim kites, all of a sudden its effectiveness increases to reward doing something other then 1A'ing.
or a zerg player using mutas against thors. just 1 A'ing they get smashed. but when they fly over and hold position to magic box them their effectiveness increases.
are all of these examples design flaws? no? then why do you consider void rays to be one?
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Protoss Void player here.
I play a lot of team games as protoss and a lesser amount of games as random in the 1's.
In my diamond 4's team i am the techer while my team mates are rushers and I always go for void rays.
But whenever I roll protoss in the 1's i always stick to plain and simple standard gate builds.
Why?
I will tell you why...
7 minutes it takes me to get 5 void rays plus speed (although i can get a void ray out in under 5 if i make a few sacrifices to my economy and really rush it).
7 WHOLE MINUTES!
a lot can happen in 7 minutes...
You can get zerg rushed, lot rushed, 2 rax rushed, three raxxed rushed, reaper rushed, bunker proxy rushed, bunker proxy reaper rushed, banshee rushed, dt rushed, 2 gated, 4 gated, muta rushed, etc etc. I could go on all day.
Now in a team game it all good because my 3 allies are watching the enemy closely and doing their best to keep me safe during those 7 minutes till i snipe out everyone's HQ's.
But in a 1v1?
void ray rushes are just not practical.
void ray harass mid to late game is viable but hey so are cloaked banshees.
even if you play defensively, in 7 minutes you can have a fully saturated expand and a quickly burgeoning army while your protoss opponent still has one stalker and a few void rays which are going to be swarmed by a very disposable army of space rednecks on drugs singing the rifleman's creed.
User was warned for this post
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On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so.
Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true.
As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop.
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On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop.
Solutions to your problem
1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs.
2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech.
3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing.
4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place).
I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage.
A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression.
All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many).
Example 1-1-1 game the T if he opened double early Rax aggression (which is actually a very normal build among Koreans) he would have ended the game right then and there, or at least put a serious dent into his strategy. An early scan would have revealed Stargate tech, which probably means you should start making Marines and Vikings. I mean honestly, there are so many tell tale signs that this shit is coming, from the fact that his Warpgates are a little late, he has tons of Chronos energy saved up, not probing up after early game, low troop count, etc. I don't see how you cannot know it's not coming. I'm not the best player at this game, but even I can tell that it was obvious some sort of VR all in was coming.
The second game the Link had the game won after the FF went down, and decides to go back for whatever reason. It's like he was attempting to prove a point that if T sits there and camps and let's P get a ton of gas units together, charges VRs up, proxy pylon outside of his base, all while not scouting his tech, then he's going to lose. No, really?
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'void rays are too good to counter' is a sick joke. They are slower than vikings by a good deal, and even 3 PRE-CHARGED void rays will die to a dozen or so unstimmed, unshield marines or half that with a turret (and if they try and attack buildings while ignoring the marines, enjoy your free kills.. stalkers being an anvil? more like a paper tissue.
This isn't about VRs being badly designed. They're actually quite well designed - they won't beat a BC one on one, but if they were any weaker they'd die even faster to a viking escort, and if they were any stronger they would be OP, and if they were any less microable they wouldn't be worth the cost. This also isn't about the VR 3 gate requiring scouting to stop. It is powerful if you do something in which you build no vikings, thors, battlecruisers ravens or marines or marauders. in short, if you only build units with weak attacks that can't attack air.
Worst of all, its' not like if the protoss' push fails that he can try something else, no, the counter doesn't just even the scale, it completely demolishes the protoss player's entire army with a maximum 10 food loss to the protoss 30 food loss, and demolishes everything the protoss could build at this point, leaves him without a hope of expanding and with a damaged economy with cut probes that can't recover - especially not against mules.
When the terran player has such an effective counter available when they could scout it and react to it at such a late point in the game there is no excuse to not using it, in fact, builds like this are what starcraft is all about.
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On October 11 2010 14:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop. Solutions to your problem 1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs. 2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech. 3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing. 4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place). I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage. A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression. All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many).
There seems to be a breakdown in communication here. You watched OPs posted replays, but I linked Gnial's thread, which contains replays from the P perspective using one of the build/strategy variations we are currently discussing. I linked it because it is currently one of the strongest PvT builds out there.
So, once again, you flamed me in your initial reply to my first post without ever watching the replays in the thread I linked. Nor did you read the strategy behind it, otherwise you would understand that you don't have map control vs. this build. Again, it's not the straight tech we struggle with. It;s the stalker/void ray combo. And Gnial's is a perfect example of the strategy in action.
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On October 11 2010 14:50 GoldenH wrote:
'void rays are too good to counter' is a sick joke. They are slower than vikings by a good deal, and even 3 PRE-CHARGED void rays will die to a dozen or so unstimmed, unshield marines or half that with a turret (and if they try and attack buildings while ignoring the marines, enjoy your free kills.. stalkers being an anvil? more like a paper tissue.
This isn't about VRs being badly designed. They're actually quite well designed - they won't beat a BC one on one, but if they were any weaker they'd die even faster to a viking escort, and if they were any stronger they would be OP, and if they were any less microable they wouldn't be worth the cost. This also isn't about the VR 3 gate requiring scouting to stop. It is powerful if you do something in which you build no vikings, thors, battlecruisers ravens or marines or marauders. in short, if you only build units with weak attacks that can't attack air.
Worst of all, its' not like if the protoss' push fails that he can try something else, no, the counter doesn't just even the scale, it completely demolishes the protoss player's entire army with a maximum 10 food loss to the protoss 30 food loss, and demolishes everything the protoss could build at this point, leaves him without a hope of expanding and with a damaged economy with cut probes that can't recover - especially not against mules.
When the terran player has such an effective counter available when they could scout it and react to it at such a late point in the game there is no excuse to not using it, in fact, builds like this are what starcraft is all about.
This build isn't even that good, it is wide open to a 2 rax or 3 rax aggression early game, and in worse case scenario you force him to make alot of Sentry (at least 3) which would severely delay his VR tech. It's also weak to Brat_Ok openings which although isn't standard, is pretty safe vs the majority of P openings (such as 3 Gate Robo, 4 Gate, Proxy VR, etc.)
On October 11 2010 14:52 ToiletDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 14:25 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop. Solutions to your problem 1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs. 2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech. 3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing. 4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place). I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage. A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression. All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many). There seems to be a breakdown in communication here. You watched OPs posted replays, but I linked Gnial's thread, which contains replays from the P perspective using one of the build/strategy variations we are currently discussing. I linked it because it is currently one of the strongest PvT builds out there. So, once again, you flamed me in your initial reply to my first post without ever watching the replays in the thread I linked. Nor did you read the strategy behind it, otherwise you would understand that you don't have map control vs. this build. Again, it's not the straight tech we struggle with. It;s the stalker/void ray combo. And Gnial's is a perfect example of the strategy in action.
Do you not understand that Gnial and this guy's build has serious issues with a 2 Rax aggression? If you build Sentries to stop it, you severely delay your VR tech. Any standard 2 Rax Korean aggression would have utterly raped this hands down.
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On October 11 2010 14:53 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 14:50 GoldenH wrote:
'void rays are too good to counter' is a sick joke. They are slower than vikings by a good deal, and even 3 PRE-CHARGED void rays will die to a dozen or so unstimmed, unshield marines or half that with a turret (and if they try and attack buildings while ignoring the marines, enjoy your free kills.. stalkers being an anvil? more like a paper tissue.
This isn't about VRs being badly designed. They're actually quite well designed - they won't beat a BC one on one, but if they were any weaker they'd die even faster to a viking escort, and if they were any stronger they would be OP, and if they were any less microable they wouldn't be worth the cost. This also isn't about the VR 3 gate requiring scouting to stop. It is powerful if you do something in which you build no vikings, thors, battlecruisers ravens or marines or marauders. in short, if you only build units with weak attacks that can't attack air.
Worst of all, its' not like if the protoss' push fails that he can try something else, no, the counter doesn't just even the scale, it completely demolishes the protoss player's entire army with a maximum 10 food loss to the protoss 30 food loss, and demolishes everything the protoss could build at this point, leaves him without a hope of expanding and with a damaged economy with cut probes that can't recover - especially not against mules.
When the terran player has such an effective counter available when they could scout it and react to it at such a late point in the game there is no excuse to not using it, in fact, builds like this are what starcraft is all about. This build isn't even that good, it is wide open to a 2 rax or 3 rax aggression early game, and in worse case scenario you force him to make alot of Sentry (at least 3) which would severely delay his VR tech. It's also weak to Brat_Ok openings which although isn't standard, is pretty safe vs the majority of P openings (such as 3 Gate Robo, 4 Gate, Proxy VR, etc.) Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 14:52 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 14:25 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop. Solutions to your problem 1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs. 2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech. 3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing. 4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place). I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage. A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression. All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many). There seems to be a breakdown in communication here. You watched OPs posted replays, but I linked Gnial's thread, which contains replays from the P perspective using one of the build/strategy variations we are currently discussing. I linked it because it is currently one of the strongest PvT builds out there. So, once again, you flamed me in your initial reply to my first post without ever watching the replays in the thread I linked. Nor did you read the strategy behind it, otherwise you would understand that you don't have map control vs. this build. Again, it's not the straight tech we struggle with. It;s the stalker/void ray combo. And Gnial's is a perfect example of the strategy in action. Do you not understand that Gnial and this guy's build has serious issues with a 2 Rax aggression? If you build Sentries to stop it, you severely delay your VR tech. Any standard 2 Rax Korean aggression would have utterly raped this hands down.
Given that Gnial's strategy is an aggressive strategy, no, it isn't weak to it, so instead of blindly commenting, why not just click the link and read?
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On October 11 2010 14:57 ToiletDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 14:53 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 14:50 GoldenH wrote:
'void rays are too good to counter' is a sick joke. They are slower than vikings by a good deal, and even 3 PRE-CHARGED void rays will die to a dozen or so unstimmed, unshield marines or half that with a turret (and if they try and attack buildings while ignoring the marines, enjoy your free kills.. stalkers being an anvil? more like a paper tissue.
This isn't about VRs being badly designed. They're actually quite well designed - they won't beat a BC one on one, but if they were any weaker they'd die even faster to a viking escort, and if they were any stronger they would be OP, and if they were any less microable they wouldn't be worth the cost. This also isn't about the VR 3 gate requiring scouting to stop. It is powerful if you do something in which you build no vikings, thors, battlecruisers ravens or marines or marauders. in short, if you only build units with weak attacks that can't attack air.
Worst of all, its' not like if the protoss' push fails that he can try something else, no, the counter doesn't just even the scale, it completely demolishes the protoss player's entire army with a maximum 10 food loss to the protoss 30 food loss, and demolishes everything the protoss could build at this point, leaves him without a hope of expanding and with a damaged economy with cut probes that can't recover - especially not against mules.
When the terran player has such an effective counter available when they could scout it and react to it at such a late point in the game there is no excuse to not using it, in fact, builds like this are what starcraft is all about. This build isn't even that good, it is wide open to a 2 rax or 3 rax aggression early game, and in worse case scenario you force him to make alot of Sentry (at least 3) which would severely delay his VR tech. It's also weak to Brat_Ok openings which although isn't standard, is pretty safe vs the majority of P openings (such as 3 Gate Robo, 4 Gate, Proxy VR, etc.) On October 11 2010 14:52 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 14:25 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop. Solutions to your problem 1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs. 2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech. 3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing. 4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place). I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage. A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression. All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many). There seems to be a breakdown in communication here. You watched OPs posted replays, but I linked Gnial's thread, which contains replays from the P perspective using one of the build/strategy variations we are currently discussing. I linked it because it is currently one of the strongest PvT builds out there. So, once again, you flamed me in your initial reply to my first post without ever watching the replays in the thread I linked. Nor did you read the strategy behind it, otherwise you would understand that you don't have map control vs. this build. Again, it's not the straight tech we struggle with. It;s the stalker/void ray combo. And Gnial's is a perfect example of the strategy in action. Do you not understand that Gnial and this guy's build has serious issues with a 2 Rax aggression? If you build Sentries to stop it, you severely delay your VR tech. Any standard 2 Rax Korean aggression would have utterly raped this hands down. Given that Gnial's strategy is an aggressive strategy, no, it isn't weak to it, so instead of blindly commenting, why not just click the link and read?
Given that most T's don't build walls like that anymore and put Mauraders up their ramp, that nullifies any double Stalker opening. Gnial also has zero troops, and would have been hard pressed to fight any 2 rax aggression without Sentry. If he did build Sentry, he's screwing his VR tech pretty badly.
Do you even play? Seriously. No one does this silly VR stuff on a consistent basis because it's too gimmicky, too risky, and relies way too much on your opponent just being incompetent at the game. Gnial's build along with the one shown here are both extremely vulnerable to early Maurader aggression, which would at worse force you to deviate and severely delay your VR timing push, which is pretty critical to winning.
Also, Gnial himself said that Marine/Ghost is a counter to his strat, which *gasp* is exactly the unit composition that Brat_OK's opening/general strategy calls for. Proxy VR is one of the easiest builds to counter in the game, and hardly any top player gets beaten by it (especially top Korean pros, although they slip up once in awhile) because they scan, they open early aggression for poking/punishing greedy players, etc.
TBH, there's almost no reason why a T player should ever be losing to this if he opens early Bio aggression, which is pretty standard for the most part. The first poke should be able to kill any Stalkers the P has, and should do huge amounts of damage to either cripple or outright win the game. You build no early Sentry (which neither of these builds call for), and you open yourself up to early Stim/Maurader aggression. Just a standard 2 Maurader/1 Marine poke would have done some serious damage to any of these builds since neither guy bothers to make Zealots early on.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 11:48 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 10:58 Mithhaike wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 10:50 TyrantPotato wrote:
simply put. when terran has all the builds that dictate pace of the game causeing other races to play reactively the game is working as intended.
but when protoss or zerg get a build that cause terran TO HAVE to react its a design flaw and needs to be nerfed.
terran players, and even seems even the top terran players have gotten to sucked into the notion that they are the ones who should be dictating pace, now when something comes along to chalange that analogy they find them selves struggleing. protoss players who have had to react to terans build orders now have an all in means to keep greedy terrans on their toes.
this just reek of Terran-Hate and total ignorance. please read my post on top before replying again. its not about a build that cause a reactionary response, its about the voidray design in this build which is just too good for a viable counter. builds that cause a reactionary response are around for all races. infact technically you have to react no matter what to whatever build you see kcdc Fast expand - terran scouts it,respond with either early aggression trying to punish the FE, or FE himself. its a reaction right? 4gate - the terran comes into the game planning to 2-3rax FE, he sees the 4gate, he respond with bunkers or stopping the expansion altogether. wow look! another reaction? please do not spread your hating of a particular race around the forums is all im trying to say. keep an objective mind and actually read what is being discussed. applies to a lot of people here, im just taking you as a newest example of the silly race biasedness im seeing here. SC2 is a game,have fun with all the races. so going along with your above post's notion you would agree that banshee is flawed? if you dont have detection its end of game. is that a design flaw. or perhaps DT's again if no detection you lose. is that a design flaw. or to the void rays thats being discussed. precharging it before battle to give you an advantage is that a design flaw. the answer to all three is no. they are to punish holes in builds. or in the void rays case, give an advantage to the toss player who has the mental capacity to precharge before a battle to increase their chance to win that confrontation. its like terran 1 A'ing their mmm ball into something. sure its a strong army but can be defeated. then if a terran stim kites, all of a sudden its effectiveness increases to reward doing something other then 1A'ing. or a zerg player using mutas against thors. just 1 A'ing they get smashed. but when they fly over and hold position to magic box them their effectiveness increases. are all of these examples design flaws? no? then why do you consider void rays to be one?
You know what, i think you've managed to disagree with yourself. DT & Banshees are as i quote "to punish holes in builds" its a hole,in a build order that you missed out detection which is your mistake and you would pay the price for it.
however Voidray's design is just too powerful when their charged.they melt through everything. there's no comparison.its a battle mechanic. after which you compare to stim kiting, which i agree its effectiveness increased to be more effective than Attack Moving. however, the issue im talking on all the way is the effectiveness of that mechanic is just mindboggling strong.
people talk about preventing the charging up,which is essentially preventing the mechanic from taking effect...which is a good move. however, if the protoss player has already activated the mechanic(charged), the effectiveness of THAT mechanic is just mindboggling.
for me, i would think that the voidrays to have that much damage AFTER their charged and very low dmg when not, is to compensate for the fact they have to charge up 1st. however, if the protoss can just pre-charge on their own units/building, that extreme damage after their charge is a bad idea as there's no longer a reason to have that huge damage after being charged. there's no risk,its a guaranteed mechanic that will steamroll everything.
everyone agrees charged voidrays are super damage dealers, while if their not charged their nothing more than a expensive piece of equipment. its the fact that the protoss can activate the mechanic easily(on their own stuff,rather than the enemy is considered relatively easier) then the voidray's design of having extremely crazy damage after its charged a unbalanced act.
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On October 11 2010 10:29 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 10:17 kidd wrote:
I watched the first replay. why wouldn't you sit an scv or marine outside 2nd to know when units are coming? If you knew, that would've been gg, but also, there was no marine micro focusing down the VRs and you funneled your own units into the ramp. The P didn't have to micro at all. Just leave a unit outside enemy base to scout when army is coming and destroy it while it's on the way and focus VRs with your marines. That would've won the game even with your "bad" build against the VR strat. Also he FFed you from coming into his base, but he only had one sentry, you could've just waited and run up, killed the units then seen the stargate.
No offense to OP or anything, but I find it really hard to believe that a 2000+ T thinks this build is such a problem that VRs need a rework though I do agree that VRs could use a rework though, but for different reasons. Yes, continue to give advice to a player infinitely better than you and berate him on how he should never have an issue with this build ever cause you're so much better. Jesus christ.
this is getting so damn old and extremely annoying
everytime a good player makes a point, suddenly nobody else is supposedly allowed to have an opinion of its own or - dear god - even give advice; in sports many of the most talented coaches SUCK AT PLAYING!
there are actually few sports coaches who were really, really good players themselves; in real sports it's accepted that you DON'T have to be "skilled" to know what you are talking about; but in sc2 everybody who doesn't have the finger-skill to handle the game is automatically assumed to have no idead what he is talking about
so yes
putting a SCV or marine in front of your base if you suspect pylon-charge-voidrays helps; this is a fact, no matter if I'm a bronze-noob and he is a smurf of oGstheStc
Jesus christ.
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I am a terran player but not so high ranked as you but still i will write my opinion on this.
I try to always scout protos base with barack its 150 minerals less than mule. If i know there is something missing i expect some cheese.
There are not so many possibielities.
Void Ray & DT are the most popular. You can go raven for pdd and detect it would solve the issue with DT and probably hepl with the stalkers with the point defense drone and you would only care about the voidrays or you will go one or two turets in front. This will help with both.
I watch nearly every pro game and only few terrans use wall at the choke. After the zealot build time nerf the wall is not so esential in defending early agresion. So you are not losing buildings and you can throw a bunker at your choke.
There should be always a build that is hard to stop or imposible to stop if you dont scout it else there would by no point in hiding it.
Maybe if i reach the 2000 diamond i will change my opinion on this but for now i think the void rays are cool.
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I have a better balance solution : make them do more initial domages but gain less overtime.
Voidray fully charged should dps 33% less of what their currently do and uncharged 50% more.
Seems to be a good solution to balance a bit more.
Voidray is totally OP, get real protoss players.
I admit marauders are OP also =)
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On October 11 2010 22:09 Tonyoh wrote:
I have a better balance solution : make them do more initial domages but gain less overtime.
Voidray fully charged should dps 33% less of what their currently do and uncharged 50% more.
Seems to be a good solution to balance a bit more.
Voidray is totally OP, get real protoss players.
I admit marauders are OP also =)
OK Marauders 50 gas and we have a deal^^
I finally read the whole tread. So the whole Problem about this strat is, that if it is not scouted it will cost the Terran the game. That means as long as he plays a "normal" build.
Adjusting your build seems like the obvoius choice
The game is young, the metagame is chainging
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On October 09 2010 15:02 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:52 TyrantPotato wrote:
2000 diamond still having trouble against proxy stargates.
thats the point of building a proxy stargate. if they cant find it they reap the rewards.
its like me building a proxy starport and going banshee cloaked cheese. if i win does that mean banshees design is flawed. or is it because it was a risky flip of the coin strat.
It's not really the same thing at all. Proxy stargate forces T to produce vikings. Cloak banshees dumps 200 gas into a dead-end tech if P has observers (and they almost always will) and it doesn't really force anything except a couple mineral-only cannons. Thus, one is a gamble while the other has at least a guaranteed return - forcing T to make vikings. Also, the value of the gamble is pretty dramatically skewed in P's favor. If the cloak banshee strat pays off, P loses mining time while boosting an obs or tossing down cannons. If the VR strategy pays off, you autowin the game as your VRs destroy the T base in seconds. The risk/reward continuum is dramatically different.
Wrong on the thing about the dump of gas. Instead look at an alternative. If the terran simply gets a handfull of vikings and a couple ravens to go along with those banshees, he gets to drop pdd which blocks incoming projectiles, then a smart terran will snipe your observer since theres no way in hell to get one over there before the banshees get to do a lot of damage. When a spare does show up, then you can try to snipe that one too, or you can just finish off the stalker army you started killing in the first place. And phoenix just suck when pdd and viking on the table because they can't deplete the pdd quickly.
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Void Rays in T v P are flawed. In practice, they do not hard-counter BC's with Yamato and an armada of repairing SCV's.
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Ok well, when taking about design flaws, in tvp a small unit comes to mind, it's early game, costs exaclty 150- 50 to tech to - and 150 - 150 to build and can instantly destroys all shields on a protoss army - yeah it's the ghost....
And that aside, this strat is somewhat viable if terran sits back in his base until the CHARGED voidrays appear at his front, but then it's your own fault.
It's also nice that terran needs to scout toss for a change. Instead of just walling in and not caring what the enemy is doing...
Or we could also start calling cloaked banshees a design flaw since terran will kill toss with it unless toss know whats coming...
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basically i find VRs charging on their own units a design flaw. no matter how you think about it, it's extremely stupid.
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On ladder a friend of mine just did this strategy to me on delta quadrant, attacked with 2 charged VRs and stalkers and I was able to hold it with Brat_OK's Marine Ghost build and ended up winning after the push, voidrays are pretty fragile in my opinion, once emp'd they die hella fast.
Here is the rep for your pleasure only.
www.replayladder.com/site/replay/1469
We are both 1400~ Diamond range
I think late game voidrays massed is very strong but I don't find this build "imbalanced" it really depends on what terran does.
Obviously if you do a fast expand or something risky then you will get rolled by VR Stalker. Other then that it seems fine.
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On October 11 2010 05:59 GoldenH wrote:
Thing is you don't have to blind counter it. You can actually start building units after the first VR is out and still have enough to win. Its not like you're screwed if you miss the stargate going down, these aren't warp dts with a pylon in your base. If he is going stargate, gate, gate, he will have a ridiculously small army maybe 6-7 units, by the time you have teched up to battlecruisers or whatever it is you wanted. 3 gate stargate is all in, even probe production would have to stop, and in order to get that many stalkers an early sentry and void rays, he'd have to double gas before his second pylon.
If you're trying to be cute when someone makes that much units, you deserve to die.
what fantasy world do you live in? If you do not accumulate units pre-emptively versus a strat like this, you will die to the voidrays because if you don't have the minimum number of vikings/marines required to take down 3 ALREADY CHARGED voids + the stalkers/zealot + continued warp ins...you die.
YES, if you went 3 rax you can stop it! But for fucks sake, no one wants to 3rax all-in every damn game to blind counter a void ray strat that needs extreme luck to be scouted anyways.
And for people spouting out idiocy about "stopping void rays from charging," they can charge up on their own pylons/gateways...*facepalms*
and if you walled, your wall is gonna most likely die UNLESS you already had been building vikings, or had pre-emptive bunkers up.
And for gods sake, it's not Terran QQ, it's more or less discussion about lack of scouting. People recommending to scan...just stop. That's like looking for a needline in a haystack.
read through a lot of the thread...50% of the people dunno wtf they are talking about...other 40% keep going off-topic talking about 50 other builds instead of the one mentioned in OP. 10%...read those...if you have the time to wade through the non sense.
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I live in the fantasy world where I am a 1400 diamond protoss player who regularly employs void rays as harassment against terran and know what army i can attack and win and what will soundly defeat me.
If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point, EVEN IF THE VOID RAY IS IN YOUR BASE, you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out.
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On October 12 2010 02:44 GoldenH wrote:
I live in the fantasy world where I am a 1400 diamond protoss player who regularly employs void rays as harassment against terran and know what army i can attack and win and what will soundly defeat me.
If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out.
.....you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Yeah, I do, sorry if you want to say it doesn't work, but I've seen it happen. It's too bad that people are actually using strategies that work against this on the ladder, and that none of them know about this thread to share their skills.
I guess you are probably in the category that think it's a good idea to warp in stalkers two at a time right underneath the charged void ray?
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Well, I've read just enough "you can't stop the vrays from being charged" posts to think the people who are losing to this strat have a few more issues playing the game than this one obscure strategy. It's a PROXY pylon. PROXY. Meaning close to the base getting attacked. It should be well within your vision to drop it.
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On October 12 2010 02:54 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Well, I've read just enough "you can't stop the vrays from being charged" posts to think the people who are losing to this strat have a few more issues playing the game than this one obscure strategy. It's a PROXY pylon. PROXY. Meaning close to the base getting attacked. It should be well within your vision to drop it.
what? you attack the pylon, while they have stalkers owning all your units, and they throw down another pylon whenever they feel like it? What about maps with rocks?
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On October 12 2010 02:50 GoldenH wrote:
Yeah, I do, sorry if you want to say it doesn't work, but I've seen it happen. It's too bad that people are actually using strategies that work against this on the ladder, and that none of them know about this thread to share their skills.
I guess you are probably in the category that think it's a good idea to warp in stalkers two at a time right underneath the charged void ray?
On October 12 2010 02:46 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 02:44 GoldenH wrote:
I live in the fantasy world where I am a 1400 diamond protoss player who regularly employs void rays as harassment against terran and know what army i can attack and win and what will soundly defeat me.
If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out. .....you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Once again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Versus this x3warpx1stargate strat, waiting for three voids, if you didn't already go 3 rax, if you didn't already start building vikings, and if you didn't already have a bunker YOU DIE.
There is no "throw down 2-3 rax suddenly." There's no time to do that, there'll already be the 3 voids + gateway units at your wall. You will die to this build if you did not already have a ton of marines and stim or marines and bunker + viking.
And in case you didn't realize, the good players in this thread have already said what works versus this strategy. What the hell are you talking about?
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No, you are not paying attention. I said at 5 minutes you start building. This is to show there is plenty of time to scout, it's not a "oh no i missed his stargate with my first SCV now I die" situation. This push with 3 void ray and gateway units will come around 10-12 minutes. I used to do this push pretty often but it was too risky, so I stopped. I don't think 8 marines is a ton, + whatever else you were going to build anyway which hopefully included something to deal with stalkers.
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On October 12 2010 02:41 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 05:59 GoldenH wrote:
Thing is you don't have to blind counter it. You can actually start building units after the first VR is out and still have enough to win. Its not like you're screwed if you miss the stargate going down, these aren't warp dts with a pylon in your base. If he is going stargate, gate, gate, he will have a ridiculously small army maybe 6-7 units, by the time you have teched up to battlecruisers or whatever it is you wanted. 3 gate stargate is all in, even probe production would have to stop, and in order to get that many stalkers an early sentry and void rays, he'd have to double gas before his second pylon.
If you're trying to be cute when someone makes that much units, you deserve to die. what fantasy world do you live in? If you do not accumulate units pre-emptively versus a strat like this, you will die to the voidrays because if you don't have the minimum number of vikings/marines required to take down 3 ALREADY CHARGED voids + the stalkers/zealot + continued warp ins...you die. YES, if you went 3 rax you can stop it! But for fucks sake, no one wants to 3rax all-in every damn game to blind counter a void ray strat that needs extreme luck to be scouted anyways. And for people spouting out idiocy about "stopping void rays from charging," they can charge up on their own pylons/gateways...*facepalms* and if you walled, your wall is gonna most likely die UNLESS you already had been building vikings, or had pre-emptive bunkers up. And for gods sake, it's not Terran QQ, it's more or less discussion about lack of scouting. People recommending to scan...just stop. That's like looking for a needline in a haystack. read through a lot of the thread...50% of the people dunno wtf they are talking about...other 40% keep going off-topic talking about 50 other builds instead of the one mentioned in OP. 10%...read those...if you have the time to wade through the non sense.
No one WANTS to 3 gate robo every game either - but hey what exactly is it the the threat of an equally "unscoutable" build has forced protoss players to do for a good period of time? Oh yeah right - exactly what terrans have to do now to stop the VR build.
The people talking about stopping the VRs from charging talked about scouting the proxy and kill it before the VRs could charge - or better yet, engage just as the VR are about to charge - the pylon has to be pretty damn close to your base for them to not lose the charge on the flight.
The people talking about scanning aren't talking about scanning the ACTUAL tech but scanning his buildings/unit composition which will make you able to make an educated guess of what build the toss is going. It is obviously moronic to try and search for a proxy with scan and no one suggested.
Reading through this thread is like 100% P players asking why this is flawed and the banshee build isn't - they both force certain BOs until someone figures out a better BO. Then it is a couple of top end players who conclude from 2 replays, in which one of said top end players played like a bronze-leaguer, that the build is broken and yet when they are asked how exactly this is more broken than the banshee build by the protoss players their answer is because it's VRs, hard to scout and you guys suck.
I perfectly understand how annoying it can be to discuss things on an online forum, but seriously - let your arguments speak and let them be better than 2 replays littered with mistakes and a "I'm higher ranked than you and you suck so I'm right" - if better evidence had been provided I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have turned out to the sorry excuse of a thread that this is, but seeing as such wasn't provided, this thread started out as terran QQ and it went downhill from there (due to a joint effort).
Oh and on a sidenote (or well, this is probably more than a sidenote): Try a ghost + marine build - that'll keep you safe from more or less ANYTHING that the protoss can throw at you whilst letting you be aggressive throughout most of the early and midgame.
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On October 12 2010 03:08 GoldenH wrote:
No, you are not paying attention. I said at 5 minutes you start building. This is to show there is plenty of time to scout, it's not a "oh no i missed his stargate with my first SCV now I die" situation. This push with 3 void ray and gateway units will come around 10-12 minutes. I used to do this push pretty often but it was too risky, so I stopped. I don't think 8 marines is a ton, + whatever else you were going to build anyway which hopefully included something to deal with stalkers.
It can come in under 8:30 actually.
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On October 12 2010 01:03 NuKedUFirst wrote:On ladder a friend of mine just did this strategy to me on delta quadrant, attacked with 2 charged VRs and stalkers and I was able to hold it with Brat_OK's Marine Ghost build and ended up winning after the push, voidrays are pretty fragile in my opinion, once emp'd they die hella fast. Here is the rep for your pleasure only. www.replayladder.com/site/replay/1469 We are both 1400~ Diamond range I think late game voidrays massed is very strong but I don't find this build "imbalanced" it really depends on what terran does. Obviously if you do a fast expand or something risky then you will get rolled by VR Stalker. Other then that it seems fine.
I think that shows promise, but your buddy didn't do the optimal build. He was slow on his VRs, his push, and one of his 2 VRs wasn't even charged.
edit: also, did you know this build was coming ahead of time? Obviously with the late reaper scout it was pretty apparent something was missing in his base, but had you discussed this beforehand? I just ask cause you seem very quick to throw down 3 bunkers after sending in your reaper.
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Did anyone mention a gas steal? (Tldl 21 pages sorry) As a zerg a gas steal has become a staple in my ZvP. You can even build it to 99% and then cancel it when they have almost hammered it down.
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There have been a few concepts thrown around, that I cannot match with my game experiments. I am no top level player (around 1400 diamond) but usually the theoretical/game sense part of the game is where I'm stronger. So if some of the very high level Terran (or maybe even Protoss) could enlighten me, I would be thankful. Just PM me, if you feel that posting under this topic would derail it. I would have made a separate topic, but many things apply to this specific build.
It has been said: Terrans have an easy time scouting.
So the first time I scout a protoss is with a worker sent out usually when I finish my 10 depot. The signs I check for are:
a) 1 gas or 2 gas
b) is a zealot coming?
c) 2nd gate before core is done?
I would say 80-90% of the time, I see 2 gas, a zealot after core has been started. I keep my SCV inside his base, but as soon as his stalker comes out, my worker is toast. Until then, it's usually not a problem for toss to wait until he commits to anything.
The next time I can usually get a good picture of what he is doing, is when I drop him or use a floating factory. The problem - and that relates to the topic - is that the 2 VR + gate attack comes before either events timing wise. So my SCV sees nothing out of the ordinary and I cannot distinguish between 'standard play' (2-4 gates plus robo) and other BOs like the voidray attack discussed here or a DT rush or a 4 warpgate all in.
Now it has been said, that terran reigns the map and has the initiative early game and that I should prod his front to check his units. That relates to my next question:
When his initial stalker comes out, he gains mapcontrol, because this stalker is faster and beats everything I have in the field up until then (which is the marine and the SCV). As soon as I have the marauder, the stalker can retreat safely back into the base because he is faster or can even do damage, because his shields recover quickly. So in order to prod his ramp, I need a decent amount of units (2 marauder + marines if needed) and I need concussive shell not to get picked on on my way to his base. So whenever I do an early poke with 3-5 units, I see 1 stalker and one zealot (that my SCV told me he already has) and one sentry. They are sitting on top of their ramp. I move in, they FF the ramp to trap 1-2 units that they kill. Often there is a second stalker to shut the poke down completely. What the hell does this tell me? There could be anything off the ramp.
If he goes standard play, he can just have his other units further in the back of his base guarding against drops. If he goes VR push or DTs or fast collossi, there will be exactly those units and he won't have much more - but I cannot distinguish. So this gives me no information. So why should I invest in taking map control from protoss that early? What should I do instead?
And on a related note: If I take the map control from the toss by opening with many barracks but little tech, what good does it do me? I cannot break his ramp with just barracks units unless is extremely greedy and/or sloppy with his force fields. So what shall I do? Until I have enough forces to break 2 stalker/1zealot/1-x sentries, he has thrown down his immortal gotten is extra cycle of units from completed warpgate tech if he plays standard and can hold me easily.
So if I cannot break his ramp, I should use my map control to tech and expand? His observer sees what I am doing and as soon as the expo goes up or I sink resources into fast tech he can mass up units and crush my force. Bio pressure into expand in my experience gets stomped by 3 gate robo push when toss cuts probes. Or if the toss is doing stargate play the voidrays run rampant in your base, while your force is containing him.
So I don't see, what good it does to exert early pressure because the toss knows you cannot threaten him before can circumvent his ramp with medivacs or other air units. So in my experience, let the toss keep his mapcontrol and use either tech focussed timing attacks (like iEchoic's or the straight 3/1/2 banshee/marine push) or go fast expand with bunkers. Toss always scream about the dominance of terran T1 early with concussive shells, but I don't see what good that does, if the toss can hold early pressure without giving away his build and usually coming out ahead.
The tricky thing about this VR timing attack is, that it kills the tech timing attacks of terran (as terran air is produced slower so the toss attack will come before the terran one). It can be countered, but it pretty much requires me to blindly go for the counter, which in turn sets be back against 'standard' toss builds.
Finally I'd like to conclude this wall of text with 3 remarks:
1) I think it's good sense to go 'All-in' if you win 85+% or the time. So if you can decide based on your intel that you have such a good chance to win by going all in, you should do it.
2) If a change to the void ray is needed, I would simply prefer the void ray to charge up 25% quicker, but lose all charge when it kills a target.
3) I posted here, because there were competent players posting (among the Gold league Champs that own voidrays in their 4v4s) and I hope to get help to improve my play. Everything above is the way I experienced it from my play - which is far from perfect.
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On October 12 2010 03:04 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 02:50 GoldenH wrote:
Yeah, I do, sorry if you want to say it doesn't work, but I've seen it happen. It's too bad that people are actually using strategies that work against this on the ladder, and that none of them know about this thread to share their skills.
I guess you are probably in the category that think it's a good idea to warp in stalkers two at a time right underneath the charged void ray? Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 02:46 avilo wrote:On October 12 2010 02:44 GoldenH wrote:
I live in the fantasy world where I am a 1400 diamond protoss player who regularly employs void rays as harassment against terran and know what army i can attack and win and what will soundly defeat me.
If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out. .....you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Once again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Versus this x3warpx1stargate strat, waiting for three voids, if you didn't already go 3 rax, if you didn't already start building vikings, and if you didn't already have a bunker YOU DIE. There is no "throw down 2-3 rax suddenly." There's no time to do that, there'll already be the 3 voids + gateway units at your wall. You will die to this build if you did not already have a ton of marines and stim or marines and bunker + viking. And in case you didn't realize, the good players in this thread have already said what works versus this strategy. What the hell are you talking about?
Give it up... these people are hopeless... Thanks for trying Avilo but without mods this thread is trash. Most of the top players have already left this thread.
I've read all of this thread and people are saying the same thing over and over again when they are talking about completely different things and acting like they know what they're talking about and telling top players to l2p.
Where are the mods? There would be so many warnings for people talking about what they don't know, if not bans...
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i didn't read all 21 pages -- but a possible adjustment would be to make their fully charged dmg to that dmg only against mass, and maybe half of that against a regular army.
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If u see only like 2-3 gateways and nothing else, then there are 2 options : proxy something or ur opponent is horrible. Though there is also a 3rd possibility - 2 random expansions. Hmmmm, which one is it when playing against diamonds...
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On October 12 2010 03:08 GoldenH wrote:
No, you are not paying attention. I said at 5 minutes you start building. This is to show there is plenty of time to scout, it's not a "oh no i missed his stargate with my first SCV now I die" situation. This push with 3 void ray and gateway units will come around 10-12 minutes. I used to do this push pretty often but it was too risky, so I stopped. I don't think 8 marines is a ton, + whatever else you were going to build anyway which hopefully included something to deal with stalkers.
Thats a Command Center
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On October 12 2010 03:11 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 02:41 avilo wrote:On October 11 2010 05:59 GoldenH wrote:
Thing is you don't have to blind counter it. You can actually start building units after the first VR is out and still have enough to win. Its not like you're screwed if you miss the stargate going down, these aren't warp dts with a pylon in your base. If he is going stargate, gate, gate, he will have a ridiculously small army maybe 6-7 units, by the time you have teched up to battlecruisers or whatever it is you wanted. 3 gate stargate is all in, even probe production would have to stop, and in order to get that many stalkers an early sentry and void rays, he'd have to double gas before his second pylon.
If you're trying to be cute when someone makes that much units, you deserve to die. what fantasy world do you live in? If you do not accumulate units pre-emptively versus a strat like this, you will die to the voidrays because if you don't have the minimum number of vikings/marines required to take down 3 ALREADY CHARGED voids + the stalkers/zealot + continued warp ins...you die. YES, if you went 3 rax you can stop it! But for fucks sake, no one wants to 3rax all-in every damn game to blind counter a void ray strat that needs extreme luck to be scouted anyways. And for people spouting out idiocy about "stopping void rays from charging," they can charge up on their own pylons/gateways...*facepalms* and if you walled, your wall is gonna most likely die UNLESS you already had been building vikings, or had pre-emptive bunkers up. And for gods sake, it's not Terran QQ, it's more or less discussion about lack of scouting. People recommending to scan...just stop. That's like looking for a needline in a haystack. read through a lot of the thread...50% of the people dunno wtf they are talking about...other 40% keep going off-topic talking about 50 other builds instead of the one mentioned in OP. 10%...read those...if you have the time to wade through the non sense. No one WANTS to 3 gate robo every game either - but hey what exactly is it the the threat of an equally "unscoutable" build has forced protoss players to do for a good period of time? Oh yeah right - exactly what terrans have to do now to stop the VR build. The people talking about stopping the VRs from charging talked about scouting the proxy and kill it before the VRs could charge - or better yet, engage just as the VR are about to charge - the pylon has to be pretty damn close to your base for them to not lose the charge on the flight. The people talking about scanning aren't talking about scanning the ACTUAL tech but scanning his buildings/unit composition which will make you able to make an educated guess of what build the toss is going. It is obviously moronic to try and search for a proxy with scan and no one suggested. Reading through this thread is like 100% P players asking why this is flawed and the banshee build isn't - they both force certain BOs until someone figures out a better BO. Then it is a couple of top end players who conclude from 2 replays, in which one of said top end players played like a bronze-leaguer, that the build is broken and yet when they are asked how exactly this is more broken than the banshee build by the protoss players their answer is because it's VRs, hard to scout and you guys suck. I perfectly understand how annoying it can be to discuss things on an online forum, but seriously - let your arguments speak and let them be better than 2 replays littered with mistakes and a "I'm higher ranked than you and you suck so I'm right" - if better evidence had been provided I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have turned out to the sorry excuse of a thread that this is, but seeing as such wasn't provided, this thread started out as terran QQ and it went downhill from there (due to a joint effort). Oh and on a sidenote (or well, this is probably more than a sidenote): Try a ghost + marine build - that'll keep you safe from more or less ANYTHING that the protoss can throw at you whilst letting you be aggressive throughout most of the early and midgame.
Except if they go for a fast collosi which means GG. And that build is pretty popular.
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i already find it a problem with this build. the protoss can be hiding his/her units in another area and make it seem like they're proxying stargate and then send like a zealot to scout if u went rax, and then just macro the shit out of u. OR they can actually do the stargate and void ray u. the build puts a huge disadvantage to a terran. maybe they should increase the scan range...to maybe half the map per scan? =P lol. but yea this build is no fun for terran for sure. so many variations that a simple scout may not do well enough -- especially on a 4 player map.
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On October 12 2010 03:39 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:04 avilo wrote:On October 12 2010 02:50 GoldenH wrote:
Yeah, I do, sorry if you want to say it doesn't work, but I've seen it happen. It's too bad that people are actually using strategies that work against this on the ladder, and that none of them know about this thread to share their skills.
I guess you are probably in the category that think it's a good idea to warp in stalkers two at a time right underneath the charged void ray? On October 12 2010 02:46 avilo wrote:On October 12 2010 02:44 GoldenH wrote:
I live in the fantasy world where I am a 1400 diamond protoss player who regularly employs void rays as harassment against terran and know what army i can attack and win and what will soundly defeat me.
If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out. .....you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Once again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Versus this x3warpx1stargate strat, waiting for three voids, if you didn't already go 3 rax, if you didn't already start building vikings, and if you didn't already have a bunker YOU DIE. There is no "throw down 2-3 rax suddenly." There's no time to do that, there'll already be the 3 voids + gateway units at your wall. You will die to this build if you did not already have a ton of marines and stim or marines and bunker + viking. And in case you didn't realize, the good players in this thread have already said what works versus this strategy. What the hell are you talking about? Give it up... these people are hopeless... Thanks for trying Avilo but without mods this thread is trash. Most of the top players have already left this thread. I've read all of this thread and people are saying the same thing over and over again when they are talking about completely different things and acting like they know what they're talking about and telling top players to l2p. Where are the mods? There would be so many warnings for people talking about what they don't know, if not bans...
And posts like this surely help the discourse? The majority of the posts you're complaining about are focused on the game where as most of the rebuttal is directed at the poster's competence. Surely this is the kind of derailment post that deserves moderation.
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On October 12 2010 03:27 Firesemi wrote:
Did anyone mention a gas steal? (Tldl 21 pages sorry) As a zerg a gas steal has become a staple in my ZvP. You can even build it to 99% and then cancel it when they have almost hammered it down.
Gas steal a Protoss? You do realize they can kill the SCV right?
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well that depends u don't have to COMPLETE the refinery. the gas steal won't buy u that much time tho because it doesn't build on its own. i think it's time terrans get a tech reactor.
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Gas steal won't actually slow down the VR unfortunately... if I get gas steal'd, my first zealot will kill the extractor. If you don't complete the extractor I will have a probe standing by spamming to build an assimilator when you cancel, it will probably beat you. The gas steal will mean that there will be a few zealots instead of stalkers, or no sentry. But honestly, 3 zealots + 11 stalkers is probably superior to 14 stalkers.
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On October 12 2010 03:53 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:39 frogmelter wrote:On October 12 2010 03:04 avilo wrote:On October 12 2010 02:50 GoldenH wrote:
Yeah, I do, sorry if you want to say it doesn't work, but I've seen it happen. It's too bad that people are actually using strategies that work against this on the ladder, and that none of them know about this thread to share their skills.
I guess you are probably in the category that think it's a good idea to warp in stalkers two at a time right underneath the charged void ray? On October 12 2010 02:46 avilo wrote:On October 12 2010 02:44 GoldenH wrote:
I live in the fantasy world where I am a 1400 diamond protoss player who regularly employs void rays as harassment against terran and know what army i can attack and win and what will soundly defeat me.
If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out. .....you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Once again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Versus this x3warpx1stargate strat, waiting for three voids, if you didn't already go 3 rax, if you didn't already start building vikings, and if you didn't already have a bunker YOU DIE. There is no "throw down 2-3 rax suddenly." There's no time to do that, there'll already be the 3 voids + gateway units at your wall. You will die to this build if you did not already have a ton of marines and stim or marines and bunker + viking. And in case you didn't realize, the good players in this thread have already said what works versus this strategy. What the hell are you talking about? Give it up... these people are hopeless... Thanks for trying Avilo but without mods this thread is trash. Most of the top players have already left this thread. I've read all of this thread and people are saying the same thing over and over again when they are talking about completely different things and acting like they know what they're talking about and telling top players to l2p. Where are the mods? There would be so many warnings for people talking about what they don't know, if not bans... And posts like this surely help the discourse? The majority of the posts you're complaining about are focused on the game where as most of the rebuttal is directed at the poster's competence. Surely this is the kind of derailment post that deserves moderation.
Except he's high in the top 200 and people are telling him to learn how to play.
News flash. You guys aren't better than him. If you were, then you would be up in the top 200.
And people keep talking about different builds. Talk about the same build as the OP please.
And the problem isn't defeating this build. That is easy enough. The problem is SCOUTING it, as it is incredibly luck based where he decides to proxy it since he can contain you once he gets warpgates.
It has also been agreed on that 3 rax CAN stop this build, but most of the top players don't want to only 3 rax on the off chance that someone does this build. Not to mention the 3 rax can be scouted and the Protoss player can just not do this build and react accordingly. [Which looks like it was what happened to iechoic back a few pages]
So yes, the posts I'm complaining about are the ones where people are address the wrong problems in this thread because they aren't reading the entire thread. Yes, it's 20+ pages, but you should still read all of it before posting anything.
You did notice that almost all the top players have left right? OP hasn't posted for a while for a reason and it's not because everyone is too helpful...
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Hopefully it is because he is trying to see what the minimum amount of units he needs to hold this off & how to get them without altering his build too much.
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On October 12 2010 04:08 GoldenH wrote:
Hopefully it is because he is trying to see what the minimum amount of units he needs to hold this off & how to get them without altering his build too much.
....
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On October 12 2010 03:25 PROJECTILE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 01:03 NuKedUFirst wrote:On ladder a friend of mine just did this strategy to me on delta quadrant, attacked with 2 charged VRs and stalkers and I was able to hold it with Brat_OK's Marine Ghost build and ended up winning after the push, voidrays are pretty fragile in my opinion, once emp'd they die hella fast. Here is the rep for your pleasure only. www.replayladder.com/site/replay/1469 We are both 1400~ Diamond range I think late game voidrays massed is very strong but I don't find this build "imbalanced" it really depends on what terran does. Obviously if you do a fast expand or something risky then you will get rolled by VR Stalker. Other then that it seems fine. I think that shows promise, but your buddy didn't do the optimal build. He was slow on his VRs, his push, and one of his 2 VRs wasn't even charged. edit: also, did you know this build was coming ahead of time? Obviously with the late reaper scout it was pretty apparent something was missing in his base, but had you discussed this beforehand? I just ask cause you seem very quick to throw down 3 bunkers after sending in your reaper.
I thought he was going to 4 gate me or something to that effect so I threw down 2 more bunkers so I don't lose to any cheese~
In that replay we probably didn't play perfectly but I figured I would post it anyways. The game may have gone differently If I attacked first and he defended it and countered with the charged voidrays but yeah, I didn't scout his stargate, just his 2 gates
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On October 12 2010 03:52 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:11 Ghostcom wrote:On October 12 2010 02:41 avilo wrote:On October 11 2010 05:59 GoldenH wrote:
Thing is you don't have to blind counter it. You can actually start building units after the first VR is out and still have enough to win. Its not like you're screwed if you miss the stargate going down, these aren't warp dts with a pylon in your base. If he is going stargate, gate, gate, he will have a ridiculously small army maybe 6-7 units, by the time you have teched up to battlecruisers or whatever it is you wanted. 3 gate stargate is all in, even probe production would have to stop, and in order to get that many stalkers an early sentry and void rays, he'd have to double gas before his second pylon.
If you're trying to be cute when someone makes that much units, you deserve to die. what fantasy world do you live in? If you do not accumulate units pre-emptively versus a strat like this, you will die to the voidrays because if you don't have the minimum number of vikings/marines required to take down 3 ALREADY CHARGED voids + the stalkers/zealot + continued warp ins...you die. YES, if you went 3 rax you can stop it! But for fucks sake, no one wants to 3rax all-in every damn game to blind counter a void ray strat that needs extreme luck to be scouted anyways. And for people spouting out idiocy about "stopping void rays from charging," they can charge up on their own pylons/gateways...*facepalms* and if you walled, your wall is gonna most likely die UNLESS you already had been building vikings, or had pre-emptive bunkers up. And for gods sake, it's not Terran QQ, it's more or less discussion about lack of scouting. People recommending to scan...just stop. That's like looking for a needline in a haystack. read through a lot of the thread...50% of the people dunno wtf they are talking about...other 40% keep going off-topic talking about 50 other builds instead of the one mentioned in OP. 10%...read those...if you have the time to wade through the non sense. No one WANTS to 3 gate robo every game either - but hey what exactly is it the the threat of an equally "unscoutable" build has forced protoss players to do for a good period of time? Oh yeah right - exactly what terrans have to do now to stop the VR build. The people talking about stopping the VRs from charging talked about scouting the proxy and kill it before the VRs could charge - or better yet, engage just as the VR are about to charge - the pylon has to be pretty damn close to your base for them to not lose the charge on the flight. The people talking about scanning aren't talking about scanning the ACTUAL tech but scanning his buildings/unit composition which will make you able to make an educated guess of what build the toss is going. It is obviously moronic to try and search for a proxy with scan and no one suggested. Reading through this thread is like 100% P players asking why this is flawed and the banshee build isn't - they both force certain BOs until someone figures out a better BO. Then it is a couple of top end players who conclude from 2 replays, in which one of said top end players played like a bronze-leaguer, that the build is broken and yet when they are asked how exactly this is more broken than the banshee build by the protoss players their answer is because it's VRs, hard to scout and you guys suck. I perfectly understand how annoying it can be to discuss things on an online forum, but seriously - let your arguments speak and let them be better than 2 replays littered with mistakes and a "I'm higher ranked than you and you suck so I'm right" - if better evidence had been provided I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have turned out to the sorry excuse of a thread that this is, but seeing as such wasn't provided, this thread started out as terran QQ and it went downhill from there (due to a joint effort). Oh and on a sidenote (or well, this is probably more than a sidenote): Try a ghost + marine build - that'll keep you safe from more or less ANYTHING that the protoss can throw at you whilst letting you be aggressive throughout most of the early and midgame. Except if they go for a fast collosi which means GG. And that build is pretty popular.
How many have you met who proxy a robotics + bay? And if he doesn't proxy the robo + bay it is pretty easy to scout...
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I think Void Rays should be changed so that they can only charge up on enemy units / structures.
That seems at least to me to have been the original concept of the unit. Charging up on your own pylon / rocks is definitely a cool idea, but a very cheesy one.
I'm not really complaining about the concept of the Void Ray itself. I hate how once a Protoss has rushed VRs and gotten two charged up , it's basically GG because there's no way to beat it that early in the game, but you should be punished for allowing them the time to charge up. Then again, considering T's lack of mobility, one could construe that as a design flaw, but whatever.
My problem is that they can charge on structures that you have zero control over. What, are you supposed to defend neutral and enemy structures from Void Rays along with your own so they won't come in and slice everything up? It's ridiculous.
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The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me.
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On October 12 2010 04:25 AcuWill wrote:
The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me.
The fact that you can't spell a six-letter word is mind-boggling to me.
Also, countering any Terran argument with "but lol u OP" is only cute on the Battle.net forums.
On-topic: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832103302?page=2#27
They're "keeping their eyes on Void Rays." That alone is hard proof that there is indeed a problem with Void Rays, and no amount of "BUT TERRAN HAS" will change that.
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seriously if i hear one more fucking post about better scouting i'm gonna ....i'm gonna do something i haven't figured it out yet. the point of the build is that he HAS THE OPTION TO NOT DO IT BY SCOUTING U. AND ONCE HE DOES THAT U ARE IN A HUGE SHITHOLE because he can either expand - in which u can do nothing about because u decided to get vikings(blindly) and not know about it OR he just runs to ur base with a bunch of stalkers probably because u don't have a good enough unit count to counter his stalkers. what the OP and most of the top players are trying to say is that this build is giving the protoss the advantage without the terran being able to SAFELY transition out of the void ray defense and get a solid ground army to fend off a push. not to mention that he can just out macro u and u'll pretty much die anyway. AND the protoss being able to simply transition out of this. yes yes we know u can do the 3 rax to counter this, but u want to do that all in every game against a protoss that knows of this build and knows that if U SCREW up somehow ur dead? as a pro (not that i am one), i would not want another player to gain advantage of me like that.
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On October 12 2010 04:32 .Aar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:25 AcuWill wrote:
The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me. The fact that you can't spell a six-letter word is mind-boggling to me. Also, countering any Terran argument with "but lol u OP" is only cute on the Battle.net forums. On-topic: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832103302?page=2#27They're "keeping their eyes on Void Rays." That alone is hard proof that there is indeed a problem with Void Rays, and no amount of "BUT TERRAN HAS" will change that.
Excellent argument. Counter my ad-hominem argument (as you define it) with an ad-hominem argument is brilliant.
Further, I never actually made the argument you are accusing me of. Just difficult to fathom the fact that Terran (there you go big boy) complaining about mixing a high dps unit, which requires high level micro, with one of the worst dps per cost units in game (stalkers) is really a reason to want to nerf one of the few units that give Toss an advantage if used well.
In that case, why not remove force fields as well. Or range of Colossus. Or any other advantage that Toss have as a race.
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On October 12 2010 03:45 TERATON wrote:
If u see only like 2-3 gateways and nothing else, then there are 2 options : proxy something or ur opponent is horrible. Though there is also a 3rd possibility - 2 random expansions. Hmmmm, which one is it when playing against diamonds...
Can someone at the higher levels explain why this doesn't solve the scouting issues with a single scan, or a simple scouting of the front?
I'm only a 1200ish level diamond but to me the OP seems to be arguing the following:
1) VRs are to strong unscouted
2) Terran has no way to scout them.
As a lower level player I just don't understand why the scouting is impossible. As toss I often have to "scout" fast banshees by checking his front early on and guessing his build based on his M/M count or by applying some early pressure and this seems no different to me.
Its seems like 1 scan or checking his front will rarely see the Starport but it should be enough to let you know that he simply doesn't have enough other stuff and is doing something suspicious and you can throw down the 3rax for an easy counter.
I don't get what you could possibly be seeing with your scan or scouting of the front/his expansion that wouldn't alert you to the fact that the toss player has too few "standard" units/structures if he's spending 600 gas and 900 minerals on starport tech before he attacks you...
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On October 12 2010 04:32 .Aar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:25 AcuWill wrote:
The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me. The fact that you can't spell a six-letter word is mind-boggling to me. Also, countering any Terran argument with "but lol u OP" is only cute on the Battle.net forums. On-topic: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832103302?page=2#27They're "keeping their eyes on Void Rays." That alone is hard proof that there is indeed a problem with Void Rays, and no amount of "BUT TERRAN HAS" will change that.
We are talking about the same company which might have chosen (if what I've read about patch 1.2) to require a supply depot before rax - tell me again with a straight face that anything they do is reasonable...
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Tarath i completely agree with you. Scouting the front will give terran all the information they need to know. Or, at the very least, it will limit the possibilities to a few builds.
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God you're a moron AcuWill
User was warned for this post
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On October 12 2010 04:44 Graphex wrote:
God you're a moron AcuWill
Well put. Will read again.
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I think both sides have issues. PvT is a ridiculous and volatile matchup for the first 10 minutes of every game. P has all sorts of cheese openers like DTs or VRs but terran has so many viable cheeses and timing pushes too. Its so frustrating to be constantly trying to deal with cheese as either race. Void rays and banshees are just dumb units in my opinion. If you don't scout them or blindly prepare for them its GG when they come.
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On October 12 2010 04:39 AcuWill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:32 .Aar wrote:On October 12 2010 04:25 AcuWill wrote:
The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me. The fact that you can't spell a six-letter word is mind-boggling to me. Also, countering any Terran argument with "but lol u OP" is only cute on the Battle.net forums. On-topic: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832103302?page=2#27They're "keeping their eyes on Void Rays." That alone is hard proof that there is indeed a problem with Void Rays, and no amount of "BUT TERRAN HAS" will change that. Excellent argument. Counter my ad-hominem argument (as you define it) with an ad-hominem argument is brilliant. Further, I never actually made the argument you are accusing me of. Just difficult to fathom the fact that Terran (there you go big boy) complaining about mixing a high dps unit, which requires high level micro, with one of the worst dps per cost units in game (stalkers) is really a reason to want to nerf one of the few units that give Toss an advantage if used well. In that case, why not remove force fields as well. Or range of Colossus. Or any other advantage that Toss have as a race.
Fun fact: I never defined your argument as ad-hominem, because I don't define myself as a race on StarCraft (as per the "hominem" part of that). This post, with your snide "big boy" comment, was however definitely something I would define as ad hominem.
And yes, you did make that argument. Reread your post. You're essentially arguing that Terran units are so overpowered that Terrans have no right to complain about a broken unit. If you had said "players in general" instead of "terrain," one could have indeed construed the point you now claim to have been making, but you didn't.
And high level micro my ass. A-click on a nearby pylon or destructible rock and a-move into a base, checking once for turrets or not even if you've got more than 2.
And please don't go with the whole "WELL IF YOU'RE GONNA COMPLAIN ABOUT ONE THING WHY NOT TAKE EVERYTHING AWAY." Nobody is complaining about Force Fields, Colossi, or "any other advantage that Toss [has] as a race," because those make sense and don't depend on factors like your own pylon or neutral destructibles.
Note: Don't turn this into a "I don't like you so I'm going to derail this entire topic so I can spar with you" thread. Actually consider the points being made and offer your own rebuttal or interpretation.
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On October 12 2010 04:50 .Aar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:39 AcuWill wrote:On October 12 2010 04:32 .Aar wrote:On October 12 2010 04:25 AcuWill wrote:
The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me. The fact that you can't spell a six-letter word is mind-boggling to me. Also, countering any Terran argument with "but lol u OP" is only cute on the Battle.net forums. On-topic: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832103302?page=2#27They're "keeping their eyes on Void Rays." That alone is hard proof that there is indeed a problem with Void Rays, and no amount of "BUT TERRAN HAS" will change that. Excellent argument. Counter my ad-hominem argument (as you define it) with an ad-hominem argument is brilliant. Further, I never actually made the argument you are accusing me of. Just difficult to fathom the fact that Terran (there you go big boy) complaining about mixing a high dps unit, which requires high level micro, with one of the worst dps per cost units in game (stalkers) is really a reason to want to nerf one of the few units that give Toss an advantage if used well. In that case, why not remove force fields as well. Or range of Colossus. Or any other advantage that Toss have as a race. Fun fact: I never defined your argument as ad-hominem, because I don't define myself as a race on StarCraft (as per the "hominem" part of that). This post, with your snide "big boy" comment, was however definitely something I would define as ad hominem. And yes, you did make that argument. Reread your post. You're essentially arguing that Terran units are so overpowered that Terrans have no right to complain about a broken unit. If you had said "players in general" instead of "terrain," one could have indeed construed the point you now claim to have been making, but you didn't. And high level micro my ass. A-click on a nearby pylon or destructible rock and a-move into a base, checking once for turrets or not even if you've got more than 2. And please don't go with the whole "WELL IF YOU'RE GONNA COMPLAIN ABOUT ONE THING WHY NOT TAKE EVERYTHING AWAY." Nobody is complaining about Force Fields, Colossi, or "any other advantage that Toss [has] as a race," because those make sense and don't depend on factors like your own pylon or neutral destructibles. Note: Don't turn this into a "I don't like you so I'm going to derail this entire topic so I can spar with you" thread. Actually consider the points being made and offer your own rebuttal or interpretation.
[The fact that you can't spell a six-letter word is mind-boggling to me.
Also, countering any Terran argument with "but lol u OP" is only cute on the Battle.net forums.
On-topic: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832103302?page=2#27
They're "keeping their eyes on Void Rays." That alone is hard proof that there is indeed a problem with Void Rays, and no amount of "BUT TERRAN HAS" will change that.]
What point was being made?
And "but lol u OP" as you accuse me of saying is ad-hominem.
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On October 12 2010 04:38 ahcho00 wrote:
seriously if i hear one more fucking post about better scouting i'm gonna ....i'm gonna do something i haven't figured it out yet. the point of the build is that he HAS THE OPTION TO NOT DO IT BY SCOUTING U. AND ONCE HE DOES THAT U ARE IN A HUGE SHITHOLE because he can either expand - in which u can do nothing about because u decided to get vikings(blindly) and not know about it OR he just runs to ur base with a bunch of stalkers probably because u don't have a good enough unit count to counter his stalkers. what the OP and most of the top players are trying to say is that this build is giving the protoss the advantage without the terran being able to SAFELY transition out of the void ray defense and get a solid ground army to fend off a push. not to mention that he can just out macro u and u'll pretty much die anyway. AND the protoss being able to simply transition out of this. yes yes we know u can do the 3 rax to counter this, but u want to do that all in every game against a protoss that knows of this build and knows that if U SCREW up somehow ur dead? as a pro (not that i am one), i would not want another player to gain advantage of me like that.
Tone down the rage. What's the point of the caps and making such sweeping generalizations.
If protoss is going gate gas core gas warpgate tech stargate gate gate or something very similar what is his easy transition out of that?
Also 3rax is not typically an all-in, there is usually a ~50 food push with an expansion after a 3rax opening.
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can we get back on topic please? i think link0 put this topic on the forums for a good reason and it'll help both protoss/terran players advance their gameplay.
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i'm putting them in caps because apparently not many people seem to understand that the op is trying to point those things and many people are mindlessly giving out builds and stuff that is irrelevant to this as also many people have stated in this topic.
and to answer ur question about the transition didn't u read link0's post about the guy just running a zealot up his base and seeing that he tried to build a blind counter and just expanded and macroed up? he couldn't do anything about it.
edit: and it basically boils down to the fact that what's giving the OP trouble is the fully charged 3 void rays (please note fully charged as if i put caps again i might offend u), thus transitioning into the idea that void ray unit needs a overhaul. i don't like to post in caps, but i post in caps because many people are failing at reading what the OP has tried to say in the first place.
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I would like to have them drop a charge when swapping targets.
At least then they can still counter the units they were intended to counter but no steamroll everything when they hit critical mass.
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The "Brat_OK build" which is mass marines/ghosts is completely obsolete. Absolutely zero top terran players use that build, including even BratOK himself =(.
The build is easily hard-countered by the #1 most popular Toss build (gate robo-obs gate followed up by one-base zealot + non-range-upgraded colossus).
Haha, oh, I just noticed in the match history that Fenix (2200+ diamond, #1 Terran on NA) just lost to the 3gate+VR build from a much lower level Toss player. Lolz. Guess he "should have just SCANNED"! What a noob you are, Fenix.
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Worst problem I have with void rays is that they are boring. Watching a PvT with protoss going void rays the game usually ends before it can get fun.
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I agree with OP. Several games I've played where I see 3 gates, cyber core, robo, and battles are going as normal, They have about the same amount of units I do, and then BAM 1 void ray wins the game.
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lol link0.
btw; i would like marines to be able to "run while shooting" -- that'd be epic LOL.
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I'm having the hardest time understanding this thread. Aren't ALL proxies hard to scout? And don't VRs have counters: stimmed rines, vikings, and turrets? Especially with the 1-1-1 build, the Terran player already has the starport and marines to handle this. Microed vikings beat VRs without the acceleration upgrade, but that wouldn't even come into context if this is an early game/proxy rush.
Someone please reply to my post and thoroughly explain why the VR mechanic is messed up. Because even if it is, there are more pressing issues at hand if a unit has a clear-and-present counter. There are some who do not.
Maybe now Terran players know what it's like to ALWAYS have to go 2 gate robo against them to be safe against cloaked banshees. The threat of the unit forces me to open the game differently than if that unit did not exist; I must get an oberserver or it's an auto-win for the Terran if he goes cloaked banshees.
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On October 12 2010 04:59 link0 wrote:
The "Brat_OK build" which is mass marines/ghosts is completely obsolete. Absolutely zero top terran players use that build, including even BratOK himself =(.
The build is easily hard-countered by the #1 most popular Toss build (gate robo-obs gate followed up by one-base zealot + non-range-upgraded colossus).
Haha, oh, I just noticed in the match history that Fenix (2200+ diamond, #1 Terran on NA) just lost to the 3gate+VR build from a much lower level Toss player. Lolz. Guess he "should have just SCANNED"! What a noob you are, Fenix.
Yeah because highlevel terrans never lose to 2 gate, 6 pool or anything like that - oh wait.... Seriously, those are the arguments you'll want to avoid if you are trying to back up a point with evidence...
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On October 12 2010 05:05 Barca wrote:
I'm having the hardest time understanding this thread. Aren't ALL proxies hard to scout? And don't VRs have counters: stimmed rines, vikings, and turrets? Especially with the 1-1-1 build, the Terran player already has the starport and marines to handle this. Microed vikings beat VRs without the acceleration upgrade, but that wouldn't even come into context if this is an early game/proxy rush.
Someone please reply to my post and thoroughly explain why the VR mechanic is messed up. Because even if it is, there are more pressing issues at hand if a unit has a clear-and-present counter. There are some who do not.
Maybe now Terran players know what it's like to ALWAYS have to go 2 gate robo against them to be safe against cloaked banshees. The threat of the unit forces me to open the game differently than if that unit did not exist; I must get an oberserver or it's an auto-win for the Terran if he goes cloaked banshees.
Thank you.
I am so sick of 2 gate robo vs. every terran it's mind blowing. This one minor game mechanism is what it is i like playing against terran ALL THE TIME.
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On October 12 2010 05:05 Barca wrote:
I'm having the hardest time understanding this thread. Aren't ALL proxies hard to scout? And don't VRs have counters: stimmed rines, vikings, and turrets? Especially with the 1-1-1 build, the Terran player already has the starport and marines to handle this. Microed vikings beat VRs without the acceleration upgrade, but that wouldn't even come into context if this is an early game/proxy rush.
Someone please reply to my post and thoroughly explain why the VR mechanic is messed up. Because even if it is, there are more pressing issues at hand if a unit has a clear-and-present counter. There are some who do not.
Maybe now Terran players know what it's like to ALWAYS have to go 2 gate robo against them to be safe against cloaked banshees. The threat of the unit forces me to open the game differently than if that unit did not exist; I must get an oberserver or it's an auto-win for the Terran if he goes cloaked banshees.
we're discussing the idea that it's not just a void ray...it's a fully charged void ray...big difference. if ur wondering how it's a fully charged void ray when it gets to ur base, please read the pages everyone else had to read.
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On October 12 2010 05:11 ahcho00 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:05 Barca wrote:
I'm having the hardest time understanding this thread. Aren't ALL proxies hard to scout? And don't VRs have counters: stimmed rines, vikings, and turrets? Especially with the 1-1-1 build, the Terran player already has the starport and marines to handle this. Microed vikings beat VRs without the acceleration upgrade, but that wouldn't even come into context if this is an early game/proxy rush.
Someone please reply to my post and thoroughly explain why the VR mechanic is messed up. Because even if it is, there are more pressing issues at hand if a unit has a clear-and-present counter. There are some who do not.
Maybe now Terran players know what it's like to ALWAYS have to go 2 gate robo against them to be safe against cloaked banshees. The threat of the unit forces me to open the game differently than if that unit did not exist; I must get an oberserver or it's an auto-win for the Terran if he goes cloaked banshees. we're discussing the idea that it's not just a void ray...it's a fully charged void ray...big difference. if ur wondering how it's a fully charged void ray when it gets to ur base, please read the pages everyone else had to read.
That is like saying that it's not the banshee, it's the fully cloaked banshee without detection.
If you get to the point where you have 3+ fully charged voidrays in your base with no way to kill them, you deserve to lose. Just like if you have 3 cloaked banshees with no detection, or 12 Mutalisks with only siege tanks and marauders.
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as a 1900 diamond terran, I really feel like we should be getting some info (like rank/race) on these voters. VRs need to be worse early game and better in the late game, plain and simple. I usually see 2 VRs in ladder, and it's not always "just stalkers". I have about 10 marines when the VRs get to my base, but the fact that VRs have 1 more range than the marines means that they are basically impossible to focus fire (if there are zealots), so I often end up starting with 10 rines/8 rauders, killing his ground army, and having 8 rauders vs 2 voids. And then I lose.
On October 12 2010 05:13 AcuWill wrote:
That is like saying that it's not the banshee, it's the fully cloaked banshee without detection.
If you get to the point where you have 3+ fully charged voidrays in your base with no way to kill them, you deserve to lose. Just like if you have 3 cloaked banshees with no detection, or 12 Mutalisks with only siege tanks and marauders.
how is that the same at all? 2 fully charged void rays w/ ground support beat 10 marines and 8 marauders without losing a single VR. 3 VRs can take over 15, although losing 0 is a bit harder. Banshees and mutalisks are very fragile units and can be beaten with standard army compositions, you don't have to go only marine for the first 5 mins of the game to have a hope of countering them.
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On October 12 2010 05:05 Barca wrote:
I'm having the hardest time understanding this thread. Aren't ALL proxies hard to scout? And don't VRs have counters: stimmed rines, vikings, and turrets? Especially with the 1-1-1 build, the Terran player already has the starport and marines to handle this. Microed vikings beat VRs without the acceleration upgrade, but that wouldn't even come into context if this is an early game/proxy rush.
Someone please reply to my post and thoroughly explain why the VR mechanic is messed up. Because even if it is, there are more pressing issues at hand if a unit has a clear-and-present counter. There are some who do not.
Maybe now Terran players know what it's like to ALWAYS have to go 2 gate robo against them to be safe against cloaked banshees. The threat of the unit forces me to open the game differently than if that unit did not exist; I must get an oberserver or it's an auto-win for the Terran if he goes cloaked banshees.
Because CHARGED voidrays have no counter except mass stimmed marines, something 1/1/1 is not very strong at putting out. 3 rax is for that. So basically, as soon as you go 1/1/1 you have to start making vikings and throwing up 2 bunkers and getting marines to counter the build. Nobody does that, because it's completely dumb if they don't do the voidray allin.
If they go for an FE, you can't punish it and will be behind big time. If they go for some other proxied tech (dt,robo,blink stalker) you're screwed.
The reason the VR mechanic is messed up is because there is no counter to precharged voidrays. Marines don't do that great, especially given that they have worse range and can't hit voidrays with a zealot wall in front. Vikings die instantly unless they kite, and you can't kite when voidrays are killing your bunkers in the front of your base. Turrets die ridiculously fast too.
You cannot equate it to cloaked banshees. It's not like the observer isn't a standard, safe thing to go. Protoss should be getting them every game anyways, simply because playing blind is retarded. You should not be massing vikings every game, especially that early on. You should not be placing multiple bunkers at your front every game.
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NOTE: Commenting in general, not just to the Original Poster.
1) Replay is a must. You describe what happened at point A and point C. Not what was done and wasn't done at point B.
2) Scouting isn't all about what you see, but a LOT about what you don't see. Do 20 x games of TvP. Then analyze. If you can't sneak in a scout, use scanner. Analyze what you see at timepoint X in each game. Then you should have a pretty good idea what buildings should show up. Is something missing? Alright. Then that's good intelligence, which should get your gray cells churning on what to expect. There aren't a WHOLE lot of combinations for what a protoss player can throw at you...
Similarily poke at his front, and pull back. What do you see? Does he engage and pursue? Or does he hold his ramp? What does that tell you? If he holds, it's likely he's either bad at his macro, or he invested his resources into something else than spewing out gate-tech units.
NOTE: As with analyzing build-orders and whether they are viable to use in games - scout repeatedly (trying a build order once doesn't teach u whether it works or not). Sometimes (especially on subpar non-elite levels) build-orders aren't rigidly followed, and there are slight delays in timings of what you'll expect to see. Without actually seeing a stargate, but just the lack of the robotics and a fourth gate, repeat the scouting to prevent commiting to the wrong counters.
3) Ok. So Stalker in front + charged Void Rays is a problem for you. Especially on maps with obstacles close to your ramp which the VRs can charge up on. Fine. Learn your maps. Avoid walling on such maps.
Next, several posters claim the VRs force certain reactions from the T player, and that the T players Banshee strat doesnt transition as well (did I get that right?). Well, what comes to mind are:
- If you can't seem to handle this matchup, how can you dissuade the opponent from going with this strategy?
- Can you delay his VRs by applying pressure at any point, or likewise forcing the P to react to you instead of the other way around?
I'm just a simple platinum ranked P player with way too few games behind my belt atm. And I realize I haven't produced any concrete suggestions on how to counter the stalker + charged VR push. So I pray you won't burn me too bad for this post ;P To finish up my two mints on this I'll add what I would do as a T fighting my P if I were to utilize this strat:
- Be the aggressor. If he indeed does go for VRs he should be less confident in his ground army and stick to his ramp. (Strikes me as a reversal to how I'd use goons in BW to delay the FD opening.)
- Map-hack (leave a marine, or plant down a supply depot at edges of map) to prevent the VRs from going UNDETECTED around ur forward army to ur base. (yet again, analyze replays where this happens, and check for VR-paths)
- Try it out. If it fails. Try it another 10 times. Then adjust. Just like Day[9] taught you ;P
There. I'll zip it now.
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@OP: I think the build you did in game 1 (2-1-1) can hold this off with just some tightening of your timings. You got your factory 50 seconds later than you could have, and your starport 17 seconds later. With crisp timing you'd have a starport a full 67 seconds earlier. While it's building, throw a reactor on your factory then swap it onto the port when done. You then have the option to build reactored vikings which will arrive in time to help defend the push. You might have to build them blind, which kinda sucks, but they will still be useful for scouting and colossi later in the game. With crisper rax production you would have an extra marine or two as well.
Once the push arrives, you simply have to keep your bio behind the bunker, with your vikings overhead to stop the voidrays from killing the bunker. Stimming to chase the protoss forces out of your choke cost you.
Since building blind vikings will put you VERY far behind a fast expanding protoss, I'd recommend some tweak to allow you to scout his natural between the 6-7 minute mark (or whenever the typical expansion timing would be). Perhaps a delayed reaper or hellion? That way you can produce medivacs instead of vikings and hit him with a nice timing push.
I think this thread would have been much more productive (with less gold leaguers telling 2k diamonds how to play) if you had avoided balance discussion altogether. I do think voidrays should only be able to charge on enemy units but they can still be managed.
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On October 12 2010 05:14 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:05 Barca wrote:
I'm having the hardest time understanding this thread. Aren't ALL proxies hard to scout? And don't VRs have counters: stimmed rines, vikings, and turrets? Especially with the 1-1-1 build, the Terran player already has the starport and marines to handle this. Microed vikings beat VRs without the acceleration upgrade, but that wouldn't even come into context if this is an early game/proxy rush.
Someone please reply to my post and thoroughly explain why the VR mechanic is messed up. Because even if it is, there are more pressing issues at hand if a unit has a clear-and-present counter. There are some who do not.
Maybe now Terran players know what it's like to ALWAYS have to go 2 gate robo against them to be safe against cloaked banshees. The threat of the unit forces me to open the game differently than if that unit did not exist; I must get an oberserver or it's an auto-win for the Terran if he goes cloaked banshees. Because CHARGED voidrays have no counter except mass stimmed marines, something 1/1/1 is not very strong at putting out. 3 rax is for that. So basically, as soon as you go 1/1/1 you have to start making vikings and throwing up 2 bunkers and getting marines to counter the build. Nobody does that, because it's completely dumb if they don't do the voidray allin. If they go for an FE, you can't punish it and will be behind big time. If they go for some other proxied tech (dt,robo,blink stalker) you're screwed. The reason the VR mechanic is messed up is because there is no counter to precharged voidrays. Marines don't do that great, especially given that they have worse range and can't hit voidrays with a zealot wall in front. Vikings die instantly unless they kite, and you can't kite when voidrays are killing your bunkers in the front of your base. Turrets die ridiculously fast too. You cannot equate it to cloaked banshees. It's not like the observer isn't a standard, safe thing to go. Protoss should be getting them every game anyways, simply because playing blind is retarded. You should not be massing vikings every game, especially that early on. You should not be placing multiple bunkers at your front every game. You are arguing that going one tech path blind every game is safe to do (robo), which though is extremely limiting, basically cutting out 2 tech paths and making the terran game completely free in comparison (with regard to having open tech paths).
I could make the same argument: Every game get viking with mass stimmed marines as to not die to voidrays. It is safe and normal.
The point is, this type of play (VR) is no different that any race's capacity to go tech paths which will seem overpowered if not countered properly and require good scouting with appropriate response.
Coming out and shouting NERF because of that seems to be overreacting and quite ludicrous from the stand point of many of us Toss players.
And I am not pro, ~700 Diamond.
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On October 12 2010 05:14 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:05 Barca wrote:
I'm having the hardest time understanding this thread. Aren't ALL proxies hard to scout? And don't VRs have counters: stimmed rines, vikings, and turrets? Especially with the 1-1-1 build, the Terran player already has the starport and marines to handle this. Microed vikings beat VRs without the acceleration upgrade, but that wouldn't even come into context if this is an early game/proxy rush.
Someone please reply to my post and thoroughly explain why the VR mechanic is messed up. Because even if it is, there are more pressing issues at hand if a unit has a clear-and-present counter. There are some who do not.
Maybe now Terran players know what it's like to ALWAYS have to go 2 gate robo against them to be safe against cloaked banshees. The threat of the unit forces me to open the game differently than if that unit did not exist; I must get an oberserver or it's an auto-win for the Terran if he goes cloaked banshees. Because CHARGED voidrays have no counter except mass stimmed marines, something 1/1/1 is not very strong at putting out. 3 rax is for that. So basically, as soon as you go 1/1/1 you have to start making vikings and throwing up 2 bunkers and getting marines to counter the build. Nobody does that, because it's completely dumb if they don't do the voidray allin. If they go for an FE, you can't punish it and will be behind big time. If they go for some other proxied tech (dt,robo,blink stalker) you're screwed. The reason the VR mechanic is messed up is because there is no counter to precharged voidrays. Marines don't do that great, especially given that they have worse range and can't hit voidrays with a zealot wall in front. Vikings die instantly unless they kite, and you can't kite when voidrays are killing your bunkers in the front of your base. Turrets die ridiculously fast too. You cannot equate it to cloaked banshees. It's not like the observer isn't a standard, safe thing to go. Protoss should be getting them every game anyways, simply because playing blind is retarded. You should not be massing vikings every game, especially that early on. You should not be placing multiple bunkers at your front every game.
I don't see how pre-charging VRs is any different than Mutas using the Magic Box: using micro-tricks to enhance the performance of your units. But that's not to say it isn't too powerful.
There is a counter to pre-charged VRs, I think you meant to say charged. And I still see a counter to them charged. Keep in mind that the Protoss player had to pay 150/150 and then 250/150 for this fast VR because going Stargate is not standard for PvT. Well, not currently.
Vikings, turrets, marines. I don't see how there is no counter. I'm a protoss player and I can micro a viking to never even get touched by a VR thanks to the 9 range. If the VR is pounding down your bunker WHILE taking damage from the viking, then that VR is going to die and you're left defending against gateway units.
Yes, I can equate it to cloaked banshees because they are both builds that force the opponent to counter it blindly. Putting down "free" brunkers is wayyyy better than having to get a fast obs. And if we do scout air, then Protoss should put down a Stargate, but then the Robo is useless. So that ob costed 200/100 + 50/100 in total.
And proxy things are hard to find with ALL races.
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That was posted on the last page (or second last) - read the thread if you are going to "contribute"...
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Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP.
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On October 12 2010 05:32 Barca wrote:Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP.
The polt timing attack is stopped by the (what is starting to become standard) forge + fast templar tech.
And lol at marines dodging a storm, if marines are dodging your storms then you throwing terrible storms, because if you land a storm on a marine ball, by time they run out they'll be all dead or all nearly dead.
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Well written and pretty much sums up the entire problem of TvP at its current state.
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On October 12 2010 05:19 Erafiel wrote:
- Be the aggressor. If he indeed does go for VRs he should be less confident in his ground army and stick to his ramp. (Strikes me as a reversal to how I'd use goons in BW to delay the FD opening.)
or he is sticking to his ramp because he doesn't want you to know what he has. Poke up there early on and you will basically lose the game to a single force field.
- Map-hack (leave a marine, or plant down a supply depot at edges of map) to prevent the VRs from going UNDETECTED around ur forward army to ur base. (yet again, analyze replays where this happens, and check for VR-paths)
once the VRs are en route to your base, it's too late. What are you going to do in the 1 min it takes him to move the VRs to your choke and charge up?
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On October 12 2010 05:33 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:32 Barca wrote:Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP. The polt timing attack is stopped by the (what is starting to become standard) forge + fast templar tech. And lol at marines dodging a storm, if marines are dodging your storms then you throwing terrible storms, because if you land a storm on a marine ball, by time they run out they'll be all dead or all nearly dead.
Throwing down a forge should not be the correct response, that just cripples the Protoss's map control allowing the Terran to expand first. If that is indeed the only way to stop it, then the build seems overpowered. I'm still looking for other ways that allow for good transitions so I don't have to cry IMBA and whine.
I think you're misunderstanding me about the storms vs. EMP; not my biggest concern. Plus, normally Terran bio is MMM and marauders can withstand +3 storms if microed correctly. EMP is currently too powerful, plain and simple. It's better than feedback and storms combined.
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I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan.
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On October 12 2010 05:40 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:33 iEchoic wrote:On October 12 2010 05:32 Barca wrote:Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP. The polt timing attack is stopped by the (what is starting to become standard) forge + fast templar tech. And lol at marines dodging a storm, if marines are dodging your storms then you throwing terrible storms, because if you land a storm on a marine ball, by time they run out they'll be all dead or all nearly dead. Throwing down a forge should not be the correct response, that just cripples the Protoss's map control allowing the Terran to expand first. If that is indeed the only way to stop it, then the build seems overpowered. I'm still looking for other ways that allow for good transitions so I don't have to cry IMBA and whine.
Most top protosses now I play on ladder are running a fast templar into a reasonably fast second base. They'll let me take my third base and it doesn't matter because there is no cost effective composition that beats zealots/stalkers and HT spam lategame (or at least nobody has discovered one). It's fine if the terran expands one over you early on because the longer the game goes the bigger advantage you accumulate due to the strength of your composition.
That's also not the only way to stop it, just one example. But back on topic, I have no doubt voids are going to be changed not because of potential balance problems but because the unit has no role. The unit's entire role is to basically take a cheesy win or fail completely, and it has no function like originally described (countering massive units and being bad against small units) because it carries charge.
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I wonder if it's possible to tweak the rine/banshee/raven push to give you enough marines and stim in time to fend the voidray push?
You just don't do the early poke, because aggression with 5 units usually isn't worth it against a competent toss.
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On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan.
How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so.
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Russian Federation20 Posts
I don't get it. How did you conclude that there is a design flaw? I mean, there should be some basic assumption that leads to such conclusion. So what is that assumption?
From reading the thread I may think that this assumption is "There shouldn't be any openings that are hard to scout and counter". Therefore void rays should be redesigned. But then the whole game appears to be a huge design flaw especially from Protoss and Zerg point of view.
Or is it only Terran player should be safe against any openings which are hard to scout and counter? Why? Is there are some inherent features of Terran that imply that Terran shouldn't have weakness to any surprise attack? Lack of scouting? Weak units? Anything?
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On October 12 2010 04:58 ahcho00 wrote:
i'm putting them in caps because apparently not many people seem to understand that the op is trying to point those things and many people are mindlessly giving out builds and stuff that is irrelevant to this as also many people have stated in this topic.
and to answer ur question about the transition didn't u read link0's post about the guy just running a zealot up his base and seeing that he tried to build a blind counter and just expanded and macroed up? he couldn't do anything about it.
edit: and it basically boils down to the fact that what's giving the OP trouble is the fully charged 3 void rays (please note fully charged as if i put caps again i might offend u), thus transitioning into the idea that void ray unit needs a overhaul. i don't like to post in caps, but i post in caps because many people are failing at reading what the OP has tried to say in the first place.
I think you mean iEchoic not link0 and he was apparently so committed to turtling and defending void rays that the protoss player apparently saw he was unbreakable with his first zealot before even placing his stargate. I don't think that means very much, he didn't transition out of 3gate voidray he never even went into it.
On October 12 2010 05:40 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:33 iEchoic wrote:On October 12 2010 05:32 Barca wrote:Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP. The polt timing attack is stopped by the (what is starting to become standard) forge + fast templar tech. And lol at marines dodging a storm, if marines are dodging your storms then you throwing terrible storms, because if you land a storm on a marine ball, by time they run out they'll be all dead or all nearly dead. Throwing down a forge should not be the correct response, that just cripples the Protoss's map control allowing the Terran to expand first. If that is indeed the only way to stop it, then the build seems overpowered. I'm still looking for other ways that allow for good transitions so I don't have to cry IMBA and whine. I think you're misunderstanding me about the storms vs. EMP; not my biggest concern. Plus, normally Terran bio is MMM and marauders can withstand +3 storms if microed correctly. EMP is currently too powerful, plain and simple. It's better than feedback and storms combined.
This discussion belongs somewhere else.
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I think the design of void ray can borrow a little bit from the design of banshee. It needs to hit a lot harder non-charged and hit less hard charged.
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On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so.
Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding.
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On October 12 2010 06:00 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so. Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding.
See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game...
Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either.
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why exactly is it so hard to make a viking or two if you go 1/1/1 and you suspect a stargate? if you have even numbers of vikings vs void rays i don't see how this is at all difficult to hold off considering the vikings can literally never be hit by a void ray. are you saying that the void rays can kill your entire ground army before the vikings (hitting for 28 damage) can take them down? that seems unrealistic to me.
on the other hand, if your argument is that it is unrealistic to expect you to make vikings when stargate is a possibility OR to go 3 rax and hold it off with marines, i guess i just don't agree. i find it good for general game balance that there are timing pushes that terran has to worry about coming from protoss, because from my experience its the other way around for most of the game.
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On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan.
The exact same could be said about the bajillion different timing attacks you can throw at Protoss that go Robo. Pure unadulterated dumb luck seems to be a defining factor in most TvP games before they've both pulled off an expansion.
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On October 12 2010 06:03 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:00 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so. Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding. See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game... Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either.
the whole point is if he isn't going VRs, dude.
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wow how can u even compare a charged void ray to a cloaked banshee acuwill. i mean i don't like to offend people, but that's a really stupid thing to say. a charged void ray can literally take any unit out 1v1 not to mention 3 charged void rays -- the DPS is insane. a cloaked banshee is only cloaked and detected by an obs, a scan, a turret, a canon, raven, overseer. those are actual counters because any one of those things would probably nullify the cloaked banshee. what beats 3 fully charged void rays?
rycho - that's the problem we're getting at here and that's why the Op put it up for discussion. u don't want to blindly make vikings because it'll hurt ur economy severely early game and if u don't guess right, ur toast. it's the build that gives the protoss the advantage of either a - doing the build, and not losing anything, or b - doing the build and not losing anything.
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LinkO/iEchoic - I guess there's just one other comment to consider.
We've seen the other questionably balanced strategies be reflected in tournament positions. The main tournaments (GSL, TL Invite, KotB, IEM) and streams (Gisado's KotH) have all been dominated by Terran and Zerg. If you are correct, and this strategy is indeed overpowered, then we should see it reflected in the metagame, right? We should either see a lot of terrans losing to it at tournaments, or terrans having to gimp themselves to deal with this attack, and thus not doing as well.
Obviously, this hasn't happened yet. It seems like, if things are as you say, within a month or two we should see this becoming a dominant strategy. So why don't we hang out a little bit and see what happens? Not that I begrudge you coming to the forums and declaring something that beat you to be a design flaw - that is the god-given right of all strategy forumers. But I think that a little perspective is in order. This strategy has yet to win a major tournament, or even factor in in one; let alone become dominant. It's a trick that you don't know how to deal with yet. That's all we can say for certain.
-Cross
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this thread is a disgrace, i'm seriously disgusted
everybody who doesn't just say "omfg void rays are teh uber-power" is getting flamed by supposedly "good" terrans who hand out crap just because they are sitting on more ladder-points
every player adapts/prepares always against strats that "may" beat him at a certain point in time: zerg tends to throw up a shitton of spine crawlers when they wanna go fast muta vs protoss because protoss "may" go 4 warpgate allin; will this make their fast muta more effective? lol definitely not; ist it a design flaw that protoss can go 4 warpgate all in that prevents many kinds of faster techs? definitely not;
screw this, I'm done with this awful QQ-thread, I will write just one last thing:
how the hell is it FAIR and OK when zerg has to throw down tons of spine crawlers to be safe vs early aggression when they tech, while terran are too smug to just spam missile turrets right on top of their ramp when wanna go 1/1/1 and suspect a pre-charged void ray timing attack because they couldn't get any scouting information?
another very gosu information: turrets also "counter" the DTs which is the only other tech protoss could really go to when they try to pull something cute;
yes missile turrets will suck if protoss just went colossi...yeah...well....
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On October 12 2010 06:09 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:03 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:00 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so. Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding. See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game... Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either. the whole point is if he isn't going VRs, dude.
I know. And if he isn't going VRs then you still have marines+stim and a viking for scouting, saving a MULE. Sure, viking will be useless, but I guess that's the point of proxy tech, eh?
Maybe throw down more bunkers. You can always get your money back. Too bad cannons don't work like that...
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On October 12 2010 06:14 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:09 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 06:03 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:00 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so. Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding. See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game... Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either. the whole point is if he isn't going VRs, dude. I know. And if he isn't going VRs then you still have marines+stim and a viking for scouting, saving a MULE. Sure, viking will be useless, but I guess that's the point of proxy tech, eh? Maybe throw down more bunkers. You can always get your money back. Too bad cannons don't work like that...
you can do all of those things. If he goes for a 2 gate FE his expo will be up and running before you even start yours. And you will be able to scout it with your viking. Good job. You can't do any kind of aggression early on w/ early stim rines or 1/1/1, so he can control the map pretty easily. Opening with stimmed marauder/rine gives you map control, but sucks vs void rays.
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On October 12 2010 06:11 ahcho00 wrote:
wow how can u even compare a charged void ray to a cloaked banshee acuwill. i mean i don't like to offend people, but that's a really stupid thing to say. a charged void ray can literally take any unit out 1v1 not to mention 3 charged void rays -- the DPS is insane. a cloaked banshee is only cloaked and detected by an obs, a scan, a turret, a canon, raven, overseer. those are actual counters because any one of those things would probably nullify the cloaked banshee. what beats 3 fully charged void rays?
rycho - that's the problem we're getting at here and that's why the Op put it up for discussion. u don't want to blindly make vikings because it'll hurt ur economy severely early game and if u don't guess right, ur toast. it's the build that gives the protoss the advantage of either a - doing the build, and not losing anything, or b - doing the build and not losing anything.
I microed viking will beat 3 fully charged VR.
Of course, there are other considerations, like stalkers, etc., but that the point of the game.
I think a lot of other posters in this thread are getting to the point: "Omg, terran have to deal with one attack that can beat them if not prepared against." Well, welcome to every T v X match-up for the other side.
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to add, I used to do a 1/1/1 style build vs protoss every game. And it did great against void rays, I won 90% of the time they went for VR rushes. But I just lost when they did any other build, so I had to come up with something else. the 2/1 rax FE can actually compete with other protoss builds, and does fine against void ray pressure, but when they charge up beforehand and just bust in, it is basically unstoppable.
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On October 12 2010 06:11 ahcho00 wrote:
wow how can u even compare a charged void ray to a cloaked banshee acuwill. i mean i don't like to offend people, but that's a really stupid thing to say. a charged void ray can literally take any unit out 1v1 not to mention 3 charged void rays -- the DPS is insane. a cloaked banshee is only cloaked and detected by an obs, a scan, a turret, a canon, raven, overseer. those are actual counters because any one of those things would probably nullify the cloaked banshee. what beats 3 fully charged void rays?
rycho - that's the problem we're getting at here and that's why the Op put it up for discussion. u don't want to blindly make vikings because it'll hurt ur economy severely early game and if u don't guess right, ur toast. it's the build that gives the protoss the advantage of either a - doing the build, and not losing anything, or b - doing the build and not losing anything.
3 VRs have a lower DPS than 5 uncloaked banshees. Those are both about equivalent in cost, considering that Starports are less expensive than Stargates. Also, keep in mind that Protoss only has 2 ways of detection; obs and cannons. Obs are too slow to keep up with banshees and cannons can be easily misplaced and cost a ton of minerals. Yes, there are counters, but it puts the Protoss player behind economically... What a tick, that's what all these Terran players are saying! :O
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On October 12 2010 06:11 Crosswind wrote:
LinkO/iEchoic - I guess there's just one other comment to consider.
We've seen the other questionably balanced strategies be reflected in tournament positions. The main tournaments (GSL, TL Invite, KotB, IEM) and streams (Gisado's KotH) have all been dominated by Terran and Zerg. If you are correct, and this strategy is indeed overpowered, then we should see it reflected in the metagame, right? We should either see a lot of terrans losing to it at tournaments, or terrans having to gimp themselves to deal with this attack, and thus not doing as well.
Obviously, this hasn't happened yet. It seems like, if things are as you say, within a month or two we should see this becoming a dominant strategy. So why don't we hang out a little bit and see what happens? Not that I begrudge you coming to the forums and declaring something that beat you to be a design flaw - that is the god-given right of all strategy forumers. But I think that a little perspective is in order. This strategy has yet to win a major tournament, or even factor in in one; let alone become dominant. It's a trick that you don't know how to deal with yet. That's all we can say for certain.
-Cross
I didn't say it was broken, so I don't know why you're addressing that to me. I am just discussing it in here because 99% of the people who have posted so far haven't used/played against or understand the strategy in any way. When people post things like "tech to battlecruisers" or "1rax marauder beats this" it needs to be clarified. The strategy is really strong against 1/1/1 type builds and it's worth talking about.
I'm not ready to say it's a balance issue, but void rays are flawed just in the way that they're stupid units that are only useful for allins and insta-wins or completely failures.
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On October 12 2010 06:15 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:14 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:09 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 06:03 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:00 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so. Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding. See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game... Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either. the whole point is if he isn't going VRs, dude. I know. And if he isn't going VRs then you still have marines+stim and a viking for scouting, saving a MULE. Sure, viking will be useless, but I guess that's the point of proxy tech, eh? Maybe throw down more bunkers. You can always get your money back. Too bad cannons don't work like that... you can do all of those things. If he goes for a 2 gate FE his expo will be up and running before you even start yours. And you will be able to scout it with your viking. Good job. You can't do any kind of aggression early on w/ early stim rines or 1/1/1, so he can control the map pretty easily. Opening with stimmed marauder/rine gives you map control, but sucks vs void rays.
If he is going 2gate fe isn't that pretty obviously not a 3gate VR?
You get to see his second gas timing with your scv if he is going for void rays it should be before his 2nd gateway and before his stalker can get out to deny your scouting.
If he gets a gas that early for a 2gate expand, that's probably pretty silly but even still he's going to need a whole lot of sentries to spend that gas. Find the timings and sac an scv, do a small push, or spend a scan at the appropriate time.
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On October 12 2010 06:15 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:14 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:09 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 06:03 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:00 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so. Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding. See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game... Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either. the whole point is if he isn't going VRs, dude. I know. And if he isn't going VRs then you still have marines+stim and a viking for scouting, saving a MULE. Sure, viking will be useless, but I guess that's the point of proxy tech, eh? Maybe throw down more bunkers. You can always get your money back. Too bad cannons don't work like that... you can do all of those things. If he goes for a 2 gate FE his expo will be up and running before you even start yours. And you will be able to scout it with your viking. Good job. You can't do any kind of aggression early on w/ early stim rines or 1/1/1, so he can control the map pretty easily. Opening with stimmed marauder/rine gives you map control, but sucks vs void rays.
Who waits until they have a starport to scout his expo? At least he has to build his Nexus at the site.
And you basically countered your own argument. You said stimmed Marine/Marauder give you map control, but stimmed Marines give the Protoss player map control. What?
And 1/1/1 you can definitely gain map control, either with banshees or helion drop in mineral lines. Early aggression is not out of the question, here.
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On October 12 2010 05:44 iEchoic wrote:
That's also not the only way to stop it, just one example. But back on topic, I have no doubt voids are going to be changed not because of potential balance problems but because the unit has no role. The unit's entire role is to basically take a cheesy win or fail completely, and it has no function like originally described (countering massive units and being bad against small units) because it carries charge.
They counter BCs and carriers, and obviously colossi who can't shoot them. Their role is anti-armored though, not anti-massive, or they would have +massive damage. They do well against armored units generally, and die horribly to hydras/marines. How is that not working as intended?
I agree they are mostly used for cheese/allin type stuff, but that's because of a Terran unit, not the VR. Once you show your hand they make vikings and obliterate your VRs. Thus, gimmicky. If VRs were a more "normal" unit they still would never get used because vikings would still obliterate them.
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Only read the first few posts, but they complain about how they hide the Stargate. Well if you scout at like, 30-40 food and all you see is one gate and one core, you should expect it all the way and be prepared. 3 or 4 well placed missile turrets will completely eliminate the thread of Void Rays as long as you quickly mass up marines with stim.
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to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg.
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On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
It's really not hard. The VRs destroying your base before hero viking can take them out would be a problem though.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg.
Kinda irrelevent since P pretty much can't get air unless they open with it against Banshees. And opening air is rarely optimal...so yeah banshees kill everything P reasonably has then, same as VRs.
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On October 12 2010 06:20 iEchoic wrote:
I didn't say it was broken, so I don't know why you're addressing that to me. I am just discussing it in here because 99% of the people who have posted so far haven't used/played against or understand the strategy in any way. When people post things like "tech to battlecruisers" or "1rax marauder beats this" it needs to be clarified. The strategy is really strong against 1/1/1 type builds and it's worth talking about.
I'm not ready to say it's a balance issue, but void rays are flawed just in the way that they're stupid units that are only useful for allins and insta-wins or completely failures.
Your'e exactly right. The void ray stalker timing attack has turn the match up into nothing but a game of rock paper scissors.
Tbh though the majority of protosses just go all in at 7 minutes with either VR or 4 gate cheese and cross their fingers because they only know a build order and don't actually know how to play. Maybe game ending cheese is what defines the protoss race now...
User was warned for this post
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On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg.
Yes, you are correct. Congratulations. Did you also know that while 1 Collosus > 1 Marine, there's a catch - the marine can shoot up! It has ATA capabilities. So they're basically the same, using your logic. Yeah, that makes sense.
And 1 Viking will beat 3 VRs as long as they don't have the acceleration upgrade. If they do, then that Viking better be piloted by Maverick, or he is screwed.
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On October 12 2010 06:20 iEchoic wrote:
The strategy is really strong against 1/1/1 type builds and it's worth talking about.
As it is the there is no direction to the discussion, the OP doesn't mention his build but rather makes a blanket statement that they are difficult to deal with and proposes patches.
It has been proven in this thread that there are a variety of ways to deal with the 3gate VR build.
So now that we know the problem is solvable if the focus is narrowed such as how do you adjust a 1/1/1 build to account for the possibility of 3gate VR then there might be some progress made here.
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On October 12 2010 06:37 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg. Yes, you are correct. Congratulations. Did you also know that while 1 Collosus > 1 Marine, there's a catch - the marine can shoot up! It has ATA capabilities. So they're basically the same, using your logic. Yeah, that makes sense. And 1 Viking will beat 3 VRs as long as they don't have the acceleration upgrade. If they do, then that Viking better be piloted by Maverick, or he is screwed.
wtf are u smoking, get lost to bnet forums.
User was banned for this post.
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On October 12 2010 06:38 Jaeger wrote:
So now that we know the problem is solvable if the focus is narrowed such as how do you adjust a 1/1/1 build to account for the possibility of 3gate VR then there might be some progress made here.
And the answer to this (not saying it is), could well be "1/1/1 is simply too greedy, do 2/1/1". That would not mean VRs are broken :0 Standards are changing all the time in this game, a new strategy forcing a new standard is normal.
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can we read please?...fully charged -- and people are asking why i put stuff in caps. yes 1 viking will beat 3 normal void rays but 1 viking will NOT beat 3 charged void rays because once the viking stops to attack which takes about 1 second, the void ray will catch up in distance and lock onto the viking and the viking will be done in 2-3 seconds tops with 3.
and for u being a smartass about the colossus vs the marine -- they can actually attack each other while the banshee can't attack the void ray. i'm not just comparing DPS in general, i'm comparing the dps vs every single unit that can attack it. how r u gonna use a banshee to counter a void ray? good job, that makes sense.
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It seems to me that a Stalker / Void Ray army comp would require a lot of gas. I would think a heavy marine army would shut this down hard.
I know scan has been mentioned, and it sounds like you shouldn't be scanning for the Starport. What you should be scouting for is his army comp. Either poke in with a marine to try and figure out his army comp, or if you can't get a visual that way, scan inside his base.
Stimmed marines destroy voids pretty well, even when charged, so as long as you aren't building like 60% marauders, you should be able to shut them down pretty easy. +1 infantry attack would probably be great in a marine heavy army vs this comp as well.
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On October 12 2010 06:20 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:11 Crosswind wrote:
LinkO/iEchoic - I guess there's just one other comment to consider.
We've seen the other questionably balanced strategies be reflected in tournament positions. The main tournaments (GSL, TL Invite, KotB, IEM) and streams (Gisado's KotH) have all been dominated by Terran and Zerg. If you are correct, and this strategy is indeed overpowered, then we should see it reflected in the metagame, right? We should either see a lot of terrans losing to it at tournaments, or terrans having to gimp themselves to deal with this attack, and thus not doing as well.
Obviously, this hasn't happened yet. It seems like, if things are as you say, within a month or two we should see this becoming a dominant strategy. So why don't we hang out a little bit and see what happens? Not that I begrudge you coming to the forums and declaring something that beat you to be a design flaw - that is the god-given right of all strategy forumers. But I think that a little perspective is in order. This strategy has yet to win a major tournament, or even factor in in one; let alone become dominant. It's a trick that you don't know how to deal with yet. That's all we can say for certain.
-Cross I didn't say it was broken, so I don't know why you're addressing that to me. I am just discussing it in here because 99% of the people who have posted so far haven't used/played against or understand the strategy in any way. When people post things like "tech to battlecruisers" or "1rax marauder beats this" it needs to be clarified. The strategy is really strong against 1/1/1 type builds and it's worth talking about. I'm not ready to say it's a balance issue, but void rays are flawed just in the way that they're stupid units that are only useful for allins and insta-wins or completely failures.
VRs are used for cheese like you say, but they also fill the very important role of being lategame transition units - like the carrier was in BW. Few matches gets to the state where it makes sense to transition into them (especially vs. terrans as they seldomly mech against protoss - which is hardly surprising seeing how bad mech fares). The VR isn't flawed imo, at least not due to the reasons you suggest as they do fulfill another role than cheese units.
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The strength of the void ray is incredible single target damage. It is a glass cannon so to speak. Stalkers on the other hand are very low damage units. With proper micro management stimmed marines marauders and ghosts fair very well against this kind of opener. You underestimate a Terran on equal bases in that A. The Terran player receives more income due to MULES, and B. Barracks units are incredibly effective against the Protoss' unit makeup in this specific case. Note that void rays have a relatively short attack range and are very slow making them manageable. As with HT or Collosus, if you simply attack move into the Protoss forces of course they will kill you. You must prioritize targets.
Let's talk about marines. Marines are an extremely cost effective unit that become less cost effective as the Protoss techs to either collosus or high templar. However when the protoss opts for void rays marines become unstoppable killing machines provided stim pack is researched. Be careful not to build too few marines and too many marauders when facing a Protoss player until you are sure of his tech route.
Now let's talk about the sensor tower. Concerned that potential void rays can be charging up outside your base? Build a sensor tower. Engage before charge. Really, there is no reason not to build a sensor tower no matter what the situation.
You seem to be frustrated in that you can't effectively scout the stargate. In base stargates are very easy to scout with a scan. Proxy stargates are more difficult however they bare significantly higher risk and yield greater reward. Incorporating map specific scv scouting patterns into your regular build order is a very easy and highly recommended.
You also complain about having to wall in. Solution: don't. 10 pylon 10 gate early zealot will be a blind attack that few people do. If however they do it, it is manageable with a standard 12 barracks and proper marine and scv micromanagement. A simple bunker that is basically free at the top of your ramp or by your command center works wonders against everything. Walling is hardly a necessity for Terran in SC2 unlike in SCBW.
You note on how every unit should have a "proper counter' or in other terms hard counter. Incorporating the void ray into the rock paper scissors marauder match of Starcraft 2 is hardly the answer.
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On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg.
You miss the point on both comments.
The fact that there is a lack of micro skill does not counter the fact that 1 microed viking is a hard counter to fully charged VR.
The fact that Banshees only shoot ground does not counter the fact that they have more dps and that countering them will set back toss economically and requires scouting, which is the argument that the terran apologists are making against charged voidrays as a starting strategy.
The argument that VR self charging is broken stems from the fact that countering them requires investment. The fact that investment is bad stems from the fact that this sets terran back economically.
This leads to QQ. The hilarity here to every T v X match-up is that the exact same consideration must be taken vs. T every game. The fact that this is being presented as an issue to nerf the VF, because of some scouting issue vs. proxy stargate with precharging and not being able to get into base and not wanting to spend scans and not scouting and all these fantastic qualifications that make the precharged VR impossible to counter practically and THEN complaining about it being a game structure issue is absurd....especially when every T v X is making those considerations against terran EVERY GAME.
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On October 12 2010 06:26 Barca wrote:
Who waits until they have a starport to scout his expo? At least he has to build his Nexus at the site.
you can't scout his nat because you don't have map control! Your scouts will get picked off when they pass by a watchtower.
And you basically countered your own argument. You said stimmed Marine/Marauder give you map control, but stimmed Marines give the Protoss player map control. What?
that's marauders for ya. Stalkers have a much harder time kiting them.
And 1/1/1 you can definitely gain map control, either with banshees or helion drop in mineral lines. Early aggression is not out of the question, here.
that's called harass, and it doesn't give you map control. It's what you have to do when you don't have map control.
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On October 12 2010 06:47 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:26 Barca wrote:
Who waits until they have a starport to scout his expo? At least he has to build his Nexus at the site. you can't scout his nat because you don't have map control! Your scouts will get picked off when they pass by a watchtower. Show nested quote +And you basically countered your own argument. You said stimmed Marine/Marauder give you map control, but stimmed Marines give the Protoss player map control. What? that's marauders for ya. Stalkers have a much harder time kiting them. Show nested quote +And 1/1/1 you can definitely gain map control, either with banshees or helion drop in mineral lines. Early aggression is not out of the question, here. that's called harass, and it doesn't give you map control. It's what you have to do when you don't have map control.
Okay, how about this.
Get MM for scouting and map control, but skim on the Marauders for either more Marines or tech to Starport where you get an early Viking to scout.
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On October 12 2010 06:46 AcuWill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg. You miss the point on both comments. The fact that there is a lack of micro skill does not counter the fact that 1 microed viking is a hard counter to fully charged VR. The fact that Banshees only shoot ground does not counter the fact that they have more dps and that countering them will set back toss economically and requires scouting, which is the argument that the terran apologists are making against charged voidrays as a starting strategy. The argument that VR self charging is broken stems from the fact that countering them requires investment. The fact that investment is bad stems from the fact that this sets terran back economically. This leads to QQ. The hilarity here to every T v X match-up is that the exact same consideration must be taken vs. T every game. The fact that this is being presented as an issue to nerf the VF, because of some scouting issue vs. proxy stargate with precharging and not being able to get into base and not wanting to spend scans and not scouting and all these fantastic qualifications that make the precharged VR impossible to counter practically and THEN complaining about it being a game structure issue is absurd....especially when every T v X is making those considerations against terran EVERY GAME.
and yet after all this wall of text, ur saying i'm qqing? u said specifically "1 viking will beat 3 fully charged vrays" and i said "no ur an idiot u can't do that" (i didn't really say that, but that's what i meant if u think 1 viking can beat 3 fully charged void rays).
ur missing the point in my post about his response to the dps on a banshee. what good is dps if he can't hit the void ray? u can make 50 banshees and i'll have 3 void rays who's gonna win that battle? that's the point i'm getting at. so UR MISSING THE POINT.
if ur so good why don't u beat the build out and tell us all how it's done -- replay please. oh yeah and if u just assume he's going voidray and go early viking and fail -- i want that replay too when the toss player just expands and takes over the map.
ur lack of understanding the whole situation is a complete joke because u don't get the entire concept of what all the top players are trying to get at here about the build in the first place.
edit:
by the way, i'm 99% sure that on equal micro levels, the protoss with 3 fully charged void rays will definitely be able to lock onto ur 1 viking and take it out in less than 2-3 seconds.
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On October 12 2010 07:59 ahcho00 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:46 AcuWill wrote:On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg. You miss the point on both comments. The fact that there is a lack of micro skill does not counter the fact that 1 microed viking is a hard counter to fully charged VR. The fact that Banshees only shoot ground does not counter the fact that they have more dps and that countering them will set back toss economically and requires scouting, which is the argument that the terran apologists are making against charged voidrays as a starting strategy. The argument that VR self charging is broken stems from the fact that countering them requires investment. The fact that investment is bad stems from the fact that this sets terran back economically. This leads to QQ. The hilarity here to every T v X match-up is that the exact same consideration must be taken vs. T every game. The fact that this is being presented as an issue to nerf the VF, because of some scouting issue vs. proxy stargate with precharging and not being able to get into base and not wanting to spend scans and not scouting and all these fantastic qualifications that make the precharged VR impossible to counter practically and THEN complaining about it being a game structure issue is absurd....especially when every T v X is making those considerations against terran EVERY GAME. and yet after all this wall of text, ur saying i'm qqing? u said specifically "1 viking will beat 3 fully charged vrays" and i said "no ur an idiot u can't do that" (i didn't really say that, but that's what i meant if u think 1 viking can beat 3 fully charged void rays). ur missing the point in my post about his response to the dps on a banshee. what good is dps if he can't hit the void ray? u can make 50 banshees and i'll have 3 void rays who's gonna win that battle? that's the point i'm getting at. so UR MISSING THE POINT. if ur so good why don't u beat the build out and tell us all how it's done -- replay please. oh yeah and if u just assume he's going voidray and go early viking and fail -- i want that replay too when the toss player just expands and takes over the map. ur lack of understanding the whole situation is a complete joke because u don't get the entire concept of what all the top players are trying to get at here about the build in the first place.
Way to not respond to my points. But doesn't matter that the Banshees can't hit VR. The point is the discussion of dps vs. cost and what the economic/play impact is to counter it. So yeah, your ad--hominem filled argument is misdirected. And if you read, with comprehension, you will see that nowhere did I say you QQ.
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Guys your petty bickering about it is incredibly frustrating. Lets get back on task. Do void rays need to be nerfed? No. No they don't. They cost a lot, take a long time to get out, and are easy enough to scout.
Someone already pointed out like 5 pages ago the OP scouted 3 gates with no additional tech and didn't even check to see if the opponent was proxying something.
The OP lost to lack of using the knowledge he had from scouting. Nothing more, nothing less. It isn't op that you have to change your strategy to respond to what someone else is building. Every other race does it. Had the OP thought to himself "Gee, there doesn't appear to be tech in his base. Maybe he is doing a proxy!", he would have saw the proxy pylon, saw the stalkers, knew something was up, and reacted.
There are a million ways he could have reacted. I for one know that stim marines wreck void rays, charged or uncharged, and that in larger numbers, stimmed marines can put a hurting on stalkers as well. Had the OP done either of those two things, the opponent would have been screwed because his only tech, a starport, would be relatively useless, and the op would have like an 45+ marine advantage to a-move into the toss base and win.
I don't know why it's even a surprise to people that the strategy worked against him if he didn't even know it was going to happen. That's like a zerg hiding a baneling nest and the terran going super marine heavy and calling banelings op. It's just dumb. He didn't see the tech, he didn't think that the guy proxy'd, and his attitude about the state of terran is making him think if he can't beat this strategy with the build order he uses for everything else, clearly protoss needs nerfs.
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didn't u say that self charging being broken = qq?
i do think self charge is broken so ur saying i'm qqing? unless i completely missed the meaning of what u said.
how does it not matter that the banshees can't hit the vr? i have a completely useful unit that doesn't set me back at all while u've made a unit that's completely useless against mine. which means economically u've dumped 750/500 into a complete waste of units and i've put 750/450 into completely decimating ur army. how is my argument not sound on saying that the banshees are useless. i mean i must be missing something here from u already saying that a charged void ray is like a cloaked banshee. dps is useless if u can't hit anything --therefore ur utility = 0, while i've made an investment of 750/450 with full utility. c'mon man, it's a simple concept --just because u've dumped money into a unit doesn't mean it's efficient.
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well i'm trying to tell him that 1 viking isn't gonna beat 3 charged rays, and he's telling me otherwise - so talk to him lol.
ur arguement is sound jeff, but keep in mind that if u pump marines like that he's probably pumping zealots with his other 3 gates, so u can concentrate on the voidrays attacking one side of ur base, or concentrate on the zealots/stalkers or just stalkers that are either breaking down ur door/broken down ur door or already in ur base wrecking ur economy.
it's not just the voidrays attacking to counter the single unit entity, but it's the combination of the voidrays being charged/stalkers and/or zealots coming at u.
edit: but keep in mind, he can safely transition out of this tech by simply not building it and expanding once he sees ur preparing for the void rays and he'll probably just go colossus. we're not discussing how to stop the proxy void ray, because that's been discussed since beta. we're talking about how to stop a safe transition in order to counter this and not kill ur own economy if u made the wrong choice.
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On October 12 2010 06:51 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:47 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 06:26 Barca wrote:
Who waits until they have a starport to scout his expo? At least he has to build his Nexus at the site. you can't scout his nat because you don't have map control! Your scouts will get picked off when they pass by a watchtower. And you basically countered your own argument. You said stimmed Marine/Marauder give you map control, but stimmed Marines give the Protoss player map control. What? that's marauders for ya. Stalkers have a much harder time kiting them. And 1/1/1 you can definitely gain map control, either with banshees or helion drop in mineral lines. Early aggression is not out of the question, here. that's called harass, and it doesn't give you map control. It's what you have to do when you don't have map control. Okay, how about this. Get MM for scouting and map control, but skim on the Marauders for either more Marines or tech to Starport where you get an early Viking to scout.
the more marines you have the weaker your army is going to be, that's just how it works. Even though marauders cost twice as much as a marine, they take about the same amount of time to build, so the more marauders you cut from your army, the lower it will be in food count. Mass marines are only really effective vs toss if you don't have to invest gas in anything. Once you have to get the tech lab, stim, conc shells, your army size gets pretty small.
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On October 12 2010 04:59 link0 wrote:
The "Brat_OK build" which is mass marines/ghosts is completely obsolete. Absolutely zero top terran players use that build, including even BratOK himself =(.
The build is easily hard-countered by the #1 most popular Toss build (gate robo-obs gate followed up by one-base zealot + non-range-upgraded colossus).
Haha, oh, I just noticed in the match history that Fenix (2200+ diamond, #1 Terran on NA) just lost to the 3gate+VR build from a much lower level Toss player. Lolz. Guess he "should have just SCANNED"! What a noob you are, Fenix.
I don't care that you are better then me, it's obvious that you are just horribly biased. There are huge holes in this strategy.
1) It is open to any type of Maurader cheese.
2) It is open to any type of aggressive double/3 rax play.
3) A scan can easily tell you alot of things, for one he is saving Chronosboosts for something, and he's not using it on Probes (which you can tell by Probe count from a scan that he's all-inning). If he's not 4 warpgating early, that means he's 99.9% of the time going to VR all in, especially if you see no early Robo. If you scanned you would have seen all of this, and could have at least adapted abit earlier.
I have yet to see top Korean T players lose to any kind of VR build if they do their normal aggressive style of play as T, because you simply force the P to deviate from his original plan or die. It's only when the Korean T player doesn't play aggressive, doesn't scout, and allows the P to take the initiative do they lose to VRs. And please, don't say bio early aggression isn't common in TvP Korean style of play, because it is. It's one of the big reasons why most P's lost to T at GSL 1.
Virtually any 2/1/1 or 3/1/1 build would smash this let alone any type of 3 rax all in, or Bratok, or Bratok variations of it. That's 4 different strategies that utterly crush this strat, two which are off a 1-1-1, you just have to delay your 1-1-1 tech a little in anticipation of any VR cheese. Still, you force the P player to either deviate and delay his VRs by making Zealot/Sentry to delay you, or he will be crippled by any type of early Maurader aggression as you are not going to beat Mauraders with just pure Stalkers. So you can't 1-1-1 straight tech anymore because a P player figured out that if he cuts probes, saves chronos, and all in fast tech, he can beat your tech. Well boo hoo; the strat was designed to beat greedy 1-1-1 players.
Stop playing so greedy, do some early aggression, and actually scout for once and maybe you wouldn't lose to such dumb strategies.
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Void Rays cost 250/150, Marines 50. If you count gas = minerals, you can have 8 Marines per Void Ray. A pre-charged Void Ray does 16.67 dps against non armored targets (like the Marine). 8 stimed Marines do 83.64 dps; that is, five times as much. It takes 3 seconds for a charged Void Ray to kill a marine (requires 5 hits dealing 10 damage at a .6s interval). It takes 2.98 seconds for the 8 marines to kill a Void Ray. Although this is faster, due to range the marine will still probably die. So, an equal cost of Marines and Void Rays fight, the result from dps is exactly one Marine dies killing the one Void Ray.
Obviously this doesn't account for all factors, that's what makes Starcraft a strategy game. However, looking at the numbers, Void Rays are not an inherently imbalanced unit. Looking at tournament data, most pros agree in that they don't actually make Void Rays most of the time.
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What if they kept their charging ability, but were simply made unable to attack air targets? This way they maintain their function as "surgical attack units," i.e. being able to melt your expos like swiss cheese (or even your main if you're way out of position), and forces Toss players to support the voids with Phoenixes. Maybe even give them a slight movement speed buff so they can run if needed.
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am a noob but will post annyway...
Void rays are annoying but i dont see them as broken
the build wich counters it is imo not a bad build at all against all other protoss openings,wich is one of the main arguments of the op
the 3 rax build or something similar and then push is verry strong against most protoss openings
the thing wich is broken in the protoss design is the cannon
its suposed to be a defensive structure but the only good use of the cannon is offensive and i dont think it was meant to be that way
its verry powerfull even if the opponent reacts correctly and it barely sets you behind economically
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I play Terran, I'm only 800 Diamond, but I barely ladder.
Point being, Void Rays are my most unfavoured PvT Strat, I am extremely aware of Protoss going VR because if you don't have a counter, they are game enders.
Having said that, I don't see them as broken, or imbalanced, They are just a very powerful unit, but they take alot of dmg, they don't have much health, and the Terran basic unit (marine) is a great counter to them.
No problem at all, I find PvT to be a very balanced matchup at the moment.
To be fair, (again I play Terran), Terran can't exactly comment on the so called 'imbalances' of the game at the moment. We are still a very strong race.
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On October 12 2010 06:42 ahcho00 wrote:
can we read please?...fully charged -- and people are asking why i put stuff in caps. yes 1 viking will beat 3 normal void rays but 1 viking will NOT beat 3 charged void rays because once the viking stops to attack which takes about 1 second, the void ray will catch up in distance and lock onto the viking and the viking will be done in 2-3 seconds tops with 3. If your vikings get hit by void rays without fleet beacon speed upgrade then your unit control could use some work.
This strategy is strong. It's equally as strong if you 2 gate instead of 3. I'm not debating that. You will still lose if the VRs come knocking at your door charged up, but if I've learned anything it's that handing map control over for no reason is dumb as hell and inviting crap like this to happen. Especially on Steppes.
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On October 12 2010 09:21 JustPlay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:42 ahcho00 wrote:
can we read please?...fully charged -- and people are asking why i put stuff in caps. yes 1 viking will beat 3 normal void rays but 1 viking will NOT beat 3 charged void rays because once the viking stops to attack which takes about 1 second, the void ray will catch up in distance and lock onto the viking and the viking will be done in 2-3 seconds tops with 3. If your vikings get hit by void rays without fleet beacon speed upgrade then your unit control could use some work. This strategy is strong. It's equally as strong if you 2 gate instead of 3. I'm not debating that. You will still lose if the VRs come knocking at your door charged up, but if I've learned anything it's that handing map control over for no reason is dumb as hell and inviting crap like this to happen. Especially on Steppes.
no sir...it's just 1 viking -- with 3-4 vikings i can micro fine. hell even 2 vikings. but against the stargate/3 gateway, 1 and 2 vikings is a big difference. and please keep in mind they're charged - i know it doesn't affect distance or anything, but once the voidray locks on u have to go for quite some time before the charge gets released off ur viking. with less than a few seconds for ur viking, the charged vr usually takes the viking out.
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On October 12 2010 06:15 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:14 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:09 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 06:03 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 06:00 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so. Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding. See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game... Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either. the whole point is if he isn't going VRs, dude. I know. And if he isn't going VRs then you still have marines+stim and a viking for scouting, saving a MULE. Sure, viking will be useless, but I guess that's the point of proxy tech, eh? Maybe throw down more bunkers. You can always get your money back. Too bad cannons don't work like that... you can do all of those things. If he goes for a 2 gate FE his expo will be up and running before you even start yours. And you will be able to scout it with your viking. Good job. You can't do any kind of aggression early on w/ early stim rines or 1/1/1, so he can control the map pretty easily. Opening with stimmed marauder/rine gives you map control, but sucks vs void rays.
After 27 pages I'm getting the feeling the reason terrans feel void rays are too good is that marauders can't answer them...
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On October 12 2010 09:26 ahcho00 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 09:21 JustPlay wrote:On October 12 2010 06:42 ahcho00 wrote:
can we read please?...fully charged -- and people are asking why i put stuff in caps. yes 1 viking will beat 3 normal void rays but 1 viking will NOT beat 3 charged void rays because once the viking stops to attack which takes about 1 second, the void ray will catch up in distance and lock onto the viking and the viking will be done in 2-3 seconds tops with 3. If your vikings get hit by void rays without fleet beacon speed upgrade then your unit control could use some work. This strategy is strong. It's equally as strong if you 2 gate instead of 3. I'm not debating that. You will still lose if the VRs come knocking at your door charged up, but if I've learned anything it's that handing map control over for no reason is dumb as hell and inviting crap like this to happen. Especially on Steppes. no sir...it's just 1 viking -- with 3-4 vikings i can micro fine. hell even 2 vikings. but against the stargate/3 gateway, 1 and 2 vikings is a big difference. and please keep in mind they're charged - i know it doesn't affect distance or anything, but once the voidray locks on u have to go for quite some time before the charge gets released off ur viking. with less than a few seconds for ur viking, the charged vr usually takes the viking out.
What you're missing, what everyone is saying, is that with good control a viking will never get hit by a void ray, thus unless he flanks you with a surprise void ray and sandwiches your viking your viking should never take any damage. This is because they have range 9 and 2.75 speed vs a range 6 void ray with 2.25 speed and because their attack animation is so short that if you get within the 9 range and then begin moving away from the void ray then attack the void ray you can begin moving again well before the viking has fully decelerated and continuously kite them without ever being hit until you run out of map as long as the void rays are all coming from the same general direction.
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I ran into this although I got attacked a bit earlier than with 10 stalkers and 3 void rays.
It is ridiculous hard to gauge and what is almost a guaranteed loss is if you built anything at your ramp as it will fall. Playing against random has just gotten a lot more painful.
So in this game I go out to scout and I see gas before core and wonder what could be up. Void rays could be an option, DTs maybe, could still be something more standard. So I prepare for 1-2 void rays flying in on their own but they never come. Go to scout, still got very little stuff in his base so I decide to put a bunker at the ramp. Very bad decision.
This was on jungle basis with the stargate next to the rocks. It's so difficult because the rays can charge up and you're very marine heavy which is never good against stalkers.
Void rays flying in on their own has already been annoying to deal with early on and I wonder why no one thought to bring stalkers along earlier.
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That Gnial build does stalkers+VRs at your front. Been on here for ages. This is just a better timing/more all-in version of that.
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I think the Void Ray charge should still linger after switching targets, but not for as long as it currently does.
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Man, do people forget how much marines HURT? They do more DPS than marauders, even on armored targets. A pile of marines + only a small portion of marauders with concussive shell will wreck a more expensive, but equal supply, pile of stalkers. If he's going VR / stalker, he's not going to have the gas to have storm or colossi, and thus your marine-heavy comp is pretty baller, and you have gas free to do ... stuff.
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VRs need to be worse early game and better in the late game, plain and simple.
This is the best suggestion. Lower the VR base damage, but make upgrades give them more damage at +3.
But I think that marine shield and hydras are both available early enough to deal with them. It's protoss that really has a problem (though phoenix will eat VRs, and it's quite respectable to mass them, some players don't seem to like the idea?)
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You have to remember voidray micro is an absolute apm sink, and that one misclick can cost you ridiculous amount of minerals. This is the reason why I don't use voidrays(because i dish out 100 apm). If there is a protoss that can harass you with voidrays, and macro up to the point where when you eventually shut down the voidrays and move out, he has more shit than you do, then thats a matter of skill, not voidray.
Moreover, a single viking with a bit of micro will shut down any voidray play. The range 9 is ridiculous. Even if you start making vikings when the voidrays are at your base, you can stall enough time with marines to get the viking out. Once its out, then voidrays really can't do much.
Also, if you think voidrays are flawed because it forces you to get marines, or because it is somewhat good against a slower tech, rax focused play, then you really should stop QQing. Hope this isn't the case.
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Um, 3 gate SG is no beuno
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the only problem with the viking vs the void ray is the vision part. so fully charged ways will rip ur viking(s) apart. yes, u have a range of 9 vs a range of 6, but ur vision is not a range of 9 therefore ur range is ur vision, which i believe is also 6 so u need to almost go head to head with the void ray.
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On October 12 2010 11:05 ahcho00 wrote:
the only problem with the viking vs the void ray is the vision part. so fully charged ways will rip ur viking(s) apart. yes, u have a range of 9 vs a range of 6, but ur vision is not a range of 9 therefore ur range is ur vision, which i believe is also 6 so u need to almost go head to head with the void ray.
except vikings have a vision range of 10...
Also why is there so much discussion about the toss attacking the terran wall-in. I don't see why terran would ever want to wall in against toss, the only advantage of it is stopping the extremely rare DT openings but they take a lot of time anyway so that you can easily save up a scan and get a raven in time to deal with them.
The sight advantage of the ramp + 1 or 2 marauders with slow and potential bunkers is enough to stop normal 4 gate's and against any other pressure like VR's the wall-in just sucks. Yet many people argue that the voids are so annoying against your wallin but T never even walls in anymore at high level....
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On October 12 2010 11:39 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 11:05 ahcho00 wrote:
the only problem with the viking vs the void ray is the vision part. so fully charged ways will rip ur viking(s) apart. yes, u have a range of 9 vs a range of 6, but ur vision is not a range of 9 therefore ur range is ur vision, which i believe is also 6 so u need to almost go head to head with the void ray. except vikings have a vision range of 10... Also why is there so much discussion about the toss attacking the terran wall-in. I don't see why terran would ever want to wall in against toss, the only advantage of it is stopping the extremely rare DT openings but they take a lot of time anyway so that you can easily save up a scan and get a raven in time to deal with them. The sight advantage of the ramp + 1 or 2 marauders with slow and potential bunkers is enough to stop normal 4 gate's and against any other pressure like VR's the wall-in just sucks. Yet many people argue that the voids are so annoying against your wallin but T never even walls in anymore at high level....
The cited reason for a wall-in (earlier in this thread) is to not lose scvs to a 10pylon 10gate chrono zealot, but that doesn't seem valid as marines and marauders and reapers can micro well against zealots and scvs are faster than zealots so proper micro (i.e. running them away when the zealot is hitting them) and they should never die, add onto that the protoss is cutting economy heavily to do that and it seems unnecessary to wall-in.
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On October 12 2010 12:40 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 11:39 Markwerf wrote:On October 12 2010 11:05 ahcho00 wrote:
the only problem with the viking vs the void ray is the vision part. so fully charged ways will rip ur viking(s) apart. yes, u have a range of 9 vs a range of 6, but ur vision is not a range of 9 therefore ur range is ur vision, which i believe is also 6 so u need to almost go head to head with the void ray. except vikings have a vision range of 10... Also why is there so much discussion about the toss attacking the terran wall-in. I don't see why terran would ever want to wall in against toss, the only advantage of it is stopping the extremely rare DT openings but they take a lot of time anyway so that you can easily save up a scan and get a raven in time to deal with them. The sight advantage of the ramp + 1 or 2 marauders with slow and potential bunkers is enough to stop normal 4 gate's and against any other pressure like VR's the wall-in just sucks. Yet many people argue that the voids are so annoying against your wallin but T never even walls in anymore at high level.... The cited reason for a wall-in (earlier in this thread) is to not lose scvs to a 10pylon 10gate chrono zealot, but that doesn't seem valid as marines and marauders and reapers can micro well against zealots and scvs are faster than zealots so proper micro (i.e. running them away when the zealot is hitting them) and they should never die, add onto that the protoss is cutting economy heavily to do that and it seems unnecessary to wall-in.
1. You usually have to wall in if you want to do 1-1-1 and survive very early game since you don't have marauders. You likely won't be able to put up a bunker if you only have 1 rax and the Toss pressures you.
2. The 10pylon/10gate is very heavily used by top Toss players (Huk, Axslav). Clearly they use it because it's effective.
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The only way void rays are of any use at all is if they don't get scouted. The minute you know they are there they become useless as any unit with an air attack shuts them down before they get charged. If you let multiple void rays get charged that's bad play on your part.
Maybe stop being greedy with MULE's and throw down a scan? It's no different than cloaked Banshees, they completely rely on being unscouted. That starport tech lab pretty much forces Protoss to build a Robo Bay every single game delaying any other tech route, opening anything other than Robo bay against Terran only works if you have excellent scouting, which, ironically, only comes from the Robo bay!. If you see a Protoss go Stargate, he has no detection! cloaked Banshee will cripple him. It is pretty ridiculous. If he wastes money on canons, hit his army. At the very least this forces a Robo bay regardless and delays his tech.
Protoss is the only race in the game that is forced to build a specific tech structure for meaningful detection. Zerg automatically get overseers, Terran's automatically get scans, and if they want they can get Ravens, which usually doesn't require straying from your build at all. Take advantage of that and you will see void rays are no big deal.
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On October 12 2010 13:13 phant wrote:
The only way void rays are of any use at all is if they don't get scouted. The minute you know they are there they become useless as any unit with an air attack shuts them down before they get charged. If you let multiple void rays get charged that's bad play on your part.
Maybe stop being greedy with MULE's and throw down a scan? It's no different than cloaked Banshees, they completely rely on being unscouted. That starport tech lab pretty much forces Protoss to build a Robo Bay every single game delaying any other tech route, opening anything other than Robo bay against Terran only works if you have excellent scouting, which, ironically, only comes from the Robo bay!. If you see a Protoss go Stargate, he has no detection! cloaked Banshee will cripple him. It is pretty ridiculous. If he wastes money on canons, hit his army. At the very least this forces a Robo bay regardless and delays his tech.
Protoss is the only race in the game that is forced to build a specific tech structure for meaningful detection. Zerg automatically get overseers, Terran's automatically get scans, and if they want they can get Ravens, which usually doesn't require straying from your build at all. Take advantage of that and you will see void rays are no big deal.
Please...stop and read the thread. The scan thing has been discussed to death, it is not a viable solution to anything.
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On October 11 2010 15:01 superstartran wrote:
Also, Gnial himself said that Marine/Ghost is a counter to his strat, which *gasp* is exactly the unit composition that Brat_OK's opening/general strategy calls for. Proxy VR is one of the easiest builds to counter in the game, and hardly any top player gets beaten by it (especially top Korean pros, although they slip up once in awhile) because they scan, they open early aggression for poking/punishing greedy players, etc.
I don't recall saying that ^^
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On October 12 2010 13:08 link0 wrote:
1. You usually have to wall in if you want to do 1-1-1 and survive very early game since you don't have marauders. You likely won't be able to put up a bunker if you only have 1 rax and the Toss pressures you.
ok, since this thread has become a bit more civilized on the last pages I'll give this another try
what I wanted to ask specifically you and others who are good player is, why you are of the opinion that you even SHOULD be able to safely do 1/1/1? who knows if blizzard ever intended 1/1/1 to be do-able aka hold-able vs early aggression or timing-pushes? what I don't understand is, why many of you seem to strongly believe that you are SUPPOSED to be able to play 1/1/1 without there being any strategy from protoss that can punish it - notice this is pure theory-craft, I'm not talking about specific micro-moves or responses in particular;
it's the same as protoss players now try to figure out if nexus first at 15 can be played against zerg; many started doing it because the metagame shifted: zealots nerf --> more zergs hatch first --> nexus first into fast phoenixes punishs this hard (because it counters the most obvious zerg tech: the mass-muta harass into hive-tech); nevertheless it may turn out that nexus first is "too" greedy and that there are hatch first builds that will kill it, no matter how good you are at defending with cannons/stalkers/sentries
the same MUST be true for the greedy 1/1/1 build, this is nothing else but the tech-equivalent to a fast expansion; fast expansion is greedy on the economy-side, 1/1/1 is greedy on the tech; another poster has explained this nicely, void rays are no stupid build that came up "by chance" because some protoss decides "hey, let's see what happens when I go void rays 1337..." - no, void rays were designed by very good players to punish 1/1/1; terran always assumed they were safe with a bunker at the front: now this is definitely not the case anymore;
whether void rays are flawed, can most certainly NOT be deducted from the issue that void rays are strong vs 1/1/1; maybe 1/1/1 will never hold vs void rays (although that's ridiculous, when terran spams turrets they are fine anyhow) - still, this would just mean that terran had to abandon 1/1/1; nothing wrong about that UNLESS it would mean, that protoss is stronger against EVERY OTHER strategy terran can throw at them; seeing how TvP has slowly shifted in favour of terran this seems very strange to believe....to say the least
I agree, terran should not be forced to play 3rax, this would be stupid because very inflexible; nevertheless there are TONS of other openings available to terran, many of them less effective vs robo-play than pure/greedy 1/1/1 but much more safe vs void rays;
a) 2 rax reactor first: demuslims standard opening, can lead to the very dangerous marine/banshee/raven timing but also allows for flexible transitions into MMM if protoss eg. goes tech-heavy (aka stargate and TC of one base to counter banshees); seen it work on pro-level numerous times
b) 1/1/1 supported with 2 turrets directly up the ramp; void rays can't break this: turrets are not there to kill but to buy time for vikings; if void rays shoot at turrets they shoot at nothing else instead; the turrets must be placed a little bit back so that void rays can not shoot at them without exposing them to marines (very critical, otherwise charged rays will just pick them up without taking much damage); you will lose your bunker, you will lose at least one turret, but this "should" allow you to get one viking out and the other one in construction; vikings can kite void rays indefinitely, I've seen on viking kill two pre-charged void rays because they just wouldn't get a shot off
c) 1/1/1 with one viking "blind" - admittedly compromises the effectiveness of 1/1/1; but then again I don't see how this could screw up 1/1/1 altogether; it destroys the effectiveness of the hellion drop, but hey, who said that hellion drop should always be safe? it's damn strong as it is; now you'll say one viking will achieve nothing? true: nevertheless you can use the viking to scout for proxy-pylons/etc. ASAP - if there's nothing in the area, then there won't be a pre-charge any time soon; the reason is very simple: the frickin probe needs ages to get to your ramp, if there simply is no probe then there won't be a pylon;
also scouting for armies/probes is undervalued in this thread, again because of the meta-game: this scouting can be very easily achieved on delta quadrant and xel naga: once you control the tower(s) there are few ways a probe or units can take to get to your ramp; if your tower-control gets challanged by a strangely small warpgate-force without any robo-support, you MUST get suspicious because of the meta-game aspect - WHY...just why on earth would any protoss player in his right mind move out with his gateway army at THIS point in the game, when the risk of drops is extremely high? and potentially game ending?
a protoss-player will simply NEVER move out in the mid-game unless (!) he has immortals; immortals allow for strong pushes vs small MM-numbers - but without immortals protoss is toast in mid-game; everyone knows this; therefore, what is a gateway-only force doing in the middle of the map in midgame? he has no business being there, unless something fishy is going on; I'd suggest you watch especially those pro-reps (or your own games) where protoss goes for robo-builds and observe the army-movement of protoss until colossi or early immortals are out: well - in 90% of the matches there simply is none!
the other 10% of the protoss-players are obviously keen on getting their probes roasted vs hellion-drops, because no protoss in his right mind would try to pressure with gateway-only vs 1/1/1
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tech air builds need to feel OP or else they wouldn't ever be used. you have to remember you are investing a lot of money and risking quite a bit to pull off the strategy. if the corresponding reward is not much higher (realize i said MUCH higher, not equal or just higher) then you would never use them.
strategy selection is generally an extremely risk averse process, you generally need a strategy to have incredibly high rewards if it grants even a modest risk compared to a more stable strategy. if VRs felt "fair," they would be completely unused.
its the same argument that Protoss players say about Banshees. tweeks are, of course, always welcome, but you have to understand that it's part of the design for them to feel stronger than "fair,"
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Wow, I can honestly say this is the worst thread I've ever seen on TL. Someone should archive it somewhere as a colossal example in how *not* to post... As it appears many people have got extremely riled up over this topic (though I can't see what warrants such emotional involvement), I'll try and be as clear as possible.
In spite of almost 30 pages of "discussion", I can only find 8 (I might have missed one) replays showing actual evidence regarding the alleged problem. (I took the liberty of quoting them below for the convenience of anyone who can't be bothered to trawl back through the thread to find them.)
In those 8 replays we find:
- a few examples of protoss armies including void rays annihilating terran armies. In every case where this occured, the protoss army outnumbered the terran army by more than 50% (in resource terms), and in some by almost 2:1.
- a few examples of terran armies successfully defending against protoss armies containing charged void rays. In every case where this occured, the protoss army outnumbered the terran army.
It seems to me that there is simply not enough evidence to justify either the view that VRs are clearly overpowered, or that they are not. This entire thread is largely speculation.
Until we see several replays which show a (well played) terran getting consistently destroyed by charged void rays whilst battling with a "standard" equally matched army, I don't understand how people can state so adamantly that there is a problem. So far there has not been anything close to a single example of this. Perhaps you are all streaks ahead of me, and have extensive experience of far higher level play than I do, and such evidence is unnecessary, but I can't help thinking that with a few more well chosen replays to back up the points being made (on both sides), the discussion might be a little more fruitful...
Here are the replays which have been posted so far in this thread, as promised. In some cases I've edited the posts to save space.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 09 2010 14:16 link0 wrote:<snip> Sample replays (just to show how to execute it from Toss side): GAME 1, GAME 2 This Toss player's build could be even more refined/deadly by adding a sentry for Guardian shield and macroing a little bit better. Yes, I could have microed better, etc. <snip>
+ Show Spoiler +On October 09 2010 16:47 klauz619 wrote:Void rays are pretty dangerous for bio heavy terran who focuses on marauders, which seems to be what 95% of terran do. Haven't had problems with them against marine/banshee though, which is sweet. I'd prefer if void rays charged up twice as fast, but lost their charges whenever they swap targets, they're pretty idiotically designed, they aren't anti-armor or anything, they just do disproportionate damage as long as you can pre-charge off one of the thousands of available methods. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/88468-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns#rd:undefined;markup
+ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 07:12 guyGOTgirth wrote:This was fitting. First ladder game after being in this post: My opponent is 1400, I'm 1600+ I went for a 1-1-2 variation without the hellion harass and walled in with depot/depot bunker instead of a rax. I use my first 3 OCC energy on mules and scout with a factory -- by the time I see the rays they are at my base. Also due to positioning my initial scouting SCV is killed by stalkers at ramp. To be fair, I am caught out of position initially but in terms of cost / units lost we are even. I also have 2 banshees that are 1/2 way through production that I do not cancel, though I don't believe that would have made a difference. We have the same amount of money "spent" as well as the same "income." IE if I threw in an arbitrary scan on his main (his stargate was built off to the side and probably would have missed it) I would have been ~ - 300 spending in the hole.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 20:16 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 20:02 iEchoic wrote:
I really feel like you've never used or played against this build. Have you? Your advice is good for generic void ray rushes but doesn't work on this strategy. sure I have; I even provided a replay on the possible void ray abuse on shakuras with charge-up on the rocks just recently here if you are interested (no GG, just for demonstration): - but as I said: a) your viking should come faster; this is a timing-problem, if he is already charging up outside your base when your viking arrives, then something went wrong; baracks --> factory --> starport --> viking simply is faster than gateway --> core --> stargate ---> void rays, unless he proxies the void rays right outside your base and comes with his first ray immediately b) if you ralley your viking outside your base you should be able to intercept; then it's as you yourself have said earlier: it's not hard to beat the stalker/void-ray-combo when they are NOT charged up already
+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 06:22 Jaeger wrote:jimpo vs adelReplay for the game I talked about earlier. Reading this thread makes it seem like that game should be impossible, afterall he didn't have vikings out, he didn't scout the stargate, he only had one bunker at the front.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 12 2010 01:03 NuKedUFirst wrote:On ladder a friend of mine just did this strategy to me on delta quadrant, attacked with 2 charged VRs and stalkers and I was able to hold it with Brat_OK's Marine Ghost build and ended up winning after the push, voidrays are pretty fragile in my opinion, once emp'd they die hella fast. Here is the rep for your pleasure only. www.replayladder.com/site/replay/1469 We are both 1400~ Diamond range I think late game voidrays massed is very strong but I don't find this build "imbalanced" it really depends on what terran does. Obviously if you do a fast expand or something risky then you will get rolled by VR Stalker. Other then that it seems fine.
+ Show Spoiler +
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It's really simple
People, be it Terran or Zerg, hate to play against Voidrays and they do for good reason.
It's not that they are overpowered, it's just that it's about 0 fun to have them come into your base melting everything in seconds.
As Zerg its boring in both ways... Most of the games involving "early" Voirays you either die on the spot, or you won the game on the spot... It's just not fun to play against them, no matter the outcome. It just feels cheap to lose against them (Banshees are not even nearly as bad, at least they dont feel like that to me).
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Your logic here is flawed -- The void ray does about 16.67 dps when charged (It is a little excessive against armored units, about 40, but VR's ARE the counter to armored units, so use light units like marines to kill it). Banshees on the other hand have a whopping 19.2 dps (Inmitigated by armor) ALL OF THE TIME -- and are much useful for harass with their cloak ability. Your logic is flawed.
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It is not about logic.
Voidrays aren't imbalanced and thats exactly as far as any logical arguments would go :p.
Raw DPS comparisons are also not really applicable... A Banshee does Volleys, a Voidray not (not really). A charged Voidray kills most *light* stuff just as fast as a Banshee (because light units tend to have low HP but enough for the Banshee to need 3+ Volleys which means that it is (massively) overkilling with the killing volley).
So, there is no real diffrence here when it comes to "real" DPS against SCV's/Drones/Probes/Marines but as soon as you factor in anti-armored dmg the Voidray is way superior.
Well.. The biggest fact is anyway that on most maps there are Rocks in very convenient spots to charge up next to your enemies base... Which means that in most cases the Voidrays will enter a fight precharged, which means their weakness (being horrible when not charged) is no more weakness.
But in the end it's just 1 thing that makes Voidrays hated:
It's not fun when they come to your base an rape buildings in a matter of seconds.
Btw: I don't have problems dealing with Voidrays, i tend to win most of my games when the Protoss goes Voidrays (i did not check this, thats just how i feel)... But still, it's a retarded mechanic.
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It's extremely fun when my void rays rape your base in a matter of seconds though. All about perspective 
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Void rays in T v P - Design Flaw or TOSS ISNT QUIVERING IN FEAR WAITING FOR HIS 2+ COLLOSUS
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On October 12 2010 15:45 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 15:01 superstartran wrote:
Also, Gnial himself said that Marine/Ghost is a counter to his strat, which *gasp* is exactly the unit composition that Brat_OK's opening/general strategy calls for. Proxy VR is one of the easiest builds to counter in the game, and hardly any top player gets beaten by it (especially top Korean pros, although they slip up once in awhile) because they scan, they open early aggression for poking/punishing greedy players, etc.
I don't recall saying that ^^
Marine/Ghost = potential counter in your first post in that thread.
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I don't understand how people are still denying that Voids aren't a problem.
There is one build that terran can do to survive this. If he doesn't 3 rax (marine heavy, ghost optional), he dies. It really is as simple as using a scouting probe to check to see if he is. Protoss opens with a 2gateish play (double chrono stalker is my favorite), scouts the entrance for a factory, and if he sees one he makes a stargate, and the game is done. It really has little to do with the unit itself, but the fact that the terran player often has to be able to see into the future to know his opponent is going void rays from the first minute of the game. It's not like you can scan, see a stargate building a void ray, and then make the 10+ marines (and you also had to research stim somewhere along here) out of 1 rax.
Don't even mention the speed upgrade. If the protoss can squeeze that upgrade in, even units that are basically hard counters to the void, like the hydralisk start to get owned. They just dance around, abusing cliffs, charge on a building before your units can get there, and proceed to kill your "counter" army with just shield damage and then start your base.
So what's the problem? I mean, a unit doing some good damage isn't the issue. The problem is twofold and unique to the voideray:
1. If you don't scout it, you're utterly dead. Nothing in the game has this property besides cheese rushes and dt/banshee rushes (however, see #2 for the difference). This is why people refer to it as "void ray cheese". Even fast banshee will run out of cloak eventually and then you can pop up some cannons.
2. Even if do you scout it, you still might lose. You might scout the stargate even being put down, and you still might lose, because the required response to a void ray isn't as simple as a single tech structure. It's like "oh, cool voids, I need to go back in the game 5 minutes and unbuild these tanks and add 2 more rax with reactors". Fuck, I've nearly died against terrible opponents that I KNEW were going mass voids and immediately planted a hydra den... As a general rule, if you can see exactly what your opponent is building, and he can't see what you're making, you should crush him (micro excluded).
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If this is so unstoppable pls explain why P's keep dying to T's, and why I see this build once in a blue moon amongst pros. Thx.
ps. 2rax pressure kills this build instantly, maybe you should stop tech whoring and realise not even Terran has an invulnerable wall.
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On October 13 2010 01:00 ToxNub wrote:
I don't understand how people are still denying that Voids aren't a problem.
There is one build that terran can do to survive this. If he doesn't 3 rax (marine heavy, ghost optional), he dies. It really is as simple as using a scouting probe to check to see if he is. .
I hold this with a fast expand (CC in my main untill it's safe) and then mech + rines. By the time the push comes I have 3 bunkers, a viking and 1 tank sieged.
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On October 13 2010 01:12 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 01:00 ToxNub wrote:
I don't understand how people are still denying that Voids aren't a problem.
There is one build that terran can do to survive this. If he doesn't 3 rax (marine heavy, ghost optional), he dies. It really is as simple as using a scouting probe to check to see if he is. . I hold this with a fast expand (CC in my main untill it's safe) and then mech + rines. By the time the push comes I have 3 bunkers, a viking and 1 tank sieged.
how can 3 bunkers possibly cover your entire 2 bases?
On October 13 2010 01:09 Yaotzin wrote:
If this is so unstoppable pls explain why P's keep dying to T's, and why I see this build once in a blue moon amongst pros. Thx.
ps. 2rax pressure kills this build instantly, maybe you should stop tech whoring and realise not even Terran has an invulnerable wall.
Rofl... 2 rax pressure doesn't kill anything, not even 1 gate FE.
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On October 13 2010 01:22 ToxNub wrote:
Rofl... 2 rax pressure doesn't kill anything, not even 1 gate FE.
Sorry, bad wording. 2 rax pressure forces this build to be abandoned/severely delayed. Just look at the replays, they have no units at all. 1gate FE survives due to constantly chronoing the gate, this build saves chrono for the voids. You also force gas expenditure which kinda screws void production.
Best case for P in the situation is he has to use the voids to defend, and you thus know what he is doing, which pretty much kills the viability of this.
Could you please address why pros hardly ever use this unstoppable build?
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I beg to differ. Forcefield insta-rapes any attempt to pressure a toss ramp in early game.
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On October 13 2010 01:27 ToxNub wrote:
I beg to differ. Forcefield insta-rapes any attempt to pressure a toss ramp in early game.
No it doesn't they have no units. Run an SCV up the ramp and look at their mighty 1sentry1zealot army, then go rape him.
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On October 13 2010 01:22 ToxNub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 01:12 Dente wrote:On October 13 2010 01:00 ToxNub wrote:
I don't understand how people are still denying that Voids aren't a problem.
There is one build that terran can do to survive this. If he doesn't 3 rax (marine heavy, ghost optional), he dies. It really is as simple as using a scouting probe to check to see if he is. . I hold this with a fast expand (CC in my main untill it's safe) and then mech + rines. By the time the push comes I have 3 bunkers, a viking and 1 tank sieged. how can 3 bunkers possibly cover your entire 2 bases?
Learn to read - seriously, here in DK it's a skill acquired at age 6-7, everyone posting here should be a good bit above that age... He said he keeps his second orbital in his first base until it is safe...
And how is the VR any different than the Banshee forcing protoss to go robo tech? That is probably the biggest beef most people have with this thread (besides the complete lack of any evidence) - the double standards. Banshees are fine and so are VRs.
EDIT: When I say fine I don't mean 100% fine, but that nothing has proven them overpowered.
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Does someone have a replay of 3 gate stalker + void against 2-rax with a bunker set back slightly from the the choke (no wall-in, bunker back just far enough that stalkers can't hit it from the low ground). With constant marine production and decent micro, I don't see how stalkers + void ray would possibly bust this. P could contain to delay T's expansion, but 3-gate + starport gives P a very late expo, and P needs to be concerned about cloaked banshees.
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First off, he didn't specify at what point he expanded. When is "safe"? Is it safe before the push? Do you mean safe from a rush, or do you mean you haven't scouted the proxy stargate? Is safe after the void rays are dead? Don't shift lack of detail onto my reading comprehension. If you'd like to compare epeens we can go to pms and you can tell me all about your grade school education.
Banshees are recoverable. 1 banshee doesn't kill your whole base. You could be caught with 0 detection and no forge and still survive because it takes banshees nearly twice as long to kill your buildings. This does not happen with void rays. If you're going to give me lectures on learning to read you might want to try it yourself. I've already explicitly covered the difference in my first post.
Yaotzin: I'm not a pro, so I can't comment. There was a day9 daily on whiteras PvT voidray openings though, though he used them as an opener for chargelots.
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link0, I get your point and have witnessed myself the power of the 3gate void ray strat vs terran, even in my teams clan war yesterday. However, your target audience (people who understand, have witnessed, have theorycrafted and have played against this) is <5% of the people on this forum, unfortunately. IMO it is very flawed, it has been for a while. Not charging on allied/rocks seems like a good fix.
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This thread is crap. As the rules of the strategy forum state, give proof. I see no proof of Terran responding well to this strategy and still getting steamrolled.
Yes, if poorly responded, Voidrays can be very unforgiving. But they are not hard to counter and I do not believe that they are over powered.
EDIT: this is not so much directed to the OP. More so to all the QQ going on as a response.
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I'm honestly shocked this thread is still around. The bias and the lack of game-knowledge posts consist 98% of it.
Void rays are fine, just like the 10 different things T can throw against P that doesn't scout and lose right there.
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On October 13 2010 01:00 ToxNub wrote:
I don't understand how people are still denying that Voids aren't a problem.
There is one build that terran can do to survive this. If he doesn't 3 rax (marine heavy, ghost optional), he dies.
Earlier in this thread it has been agreed upon that this is holdable with at least 2rax rine ghost and fast viking playing. Thus this proven false.
It really is as simple as using a scouting probe to check to see if he is.
A scouting probe can count marines at the front but you can always hide your numbers, it only takes a single marine with some decent reaction times to stop a scouting probe from getting vision of anything.
Protoss opens with a 2gateish play (double chrono stalker is my favorite), scouts the entrance for a factory, and if he sees one he makes a stargate, and the game is done. It really has little to do with the unit itself, but the fact that the terran player often has to be able to see into the future to know his opponent is going void rays from the first minute of the game. It's not like you can scan, see a stargate building a void ray, and then make the 10+ marines (and you also had to research stim somewhere along here) out of 1 rax.
This is just blatantly wrong.
Don't even mention the speed upgrade. If the protoss can squeeze that upgrade in, even units that are basically hard counters to the void, like the hydralisk start to get owned. They just dance around, abusing cliffs, charge on a building before your units can get there, and proceed to kill your "counter" army with just shield damage and then start your base.
They're going to squeeze in an extra 450 minerals 350 gas and 140 seconds? That makes no sense. Either their push is going to come massively later or they're going to have essentially no gateway units supporting it.
So what's the problem? I mean, a unit doing some good damage isn't the issue. The problem is twofold and unique to the voideray:
1. If you don't scout it, you're utterly dead. Nothing in the game has this property besides cheese rushes and dt/banshee rushes (however, see #2 for the difference). This is why people refer to it as "void ray cheese". Even fast banshee will run out of cloak eventually and then you can pop up some cannons.
Not true, look at the jimpo vs adel replay for instance to see a completely unscouted void ray coming in precharged getting crushed. It's more likely considered cheese because there is no good next step if it doesn't immediately win you have a weak ground army a weak economy no detection and no transition other than heavily cutting unit production and expanding.
2. Even if do you scout it, you still might lose. You might scout the stargate even being put down, and you still might lose, because the required response to a void ray isn't as simple as a single tech structure. It's like "oh, cool voids, I need to go back in the game 5 minutes and unbuild these tanks and add 2 more rax with reactors". Fuck, I've nearly died against terrible opponents that I KNEW were going mass voids and immediately planted a hydra den... As a general rule, if you can see exactly what your opponent is building, and he can't see what you're making, you should crush him (micro excluded).
First you call it cheese then you say that if you scout it you can still lose to it, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese means that if scouted it will almost surely fail. What does a hydra den have to do with void rays in PvT? That general rule is meaningless, you can have a better strategy, better mechanics, better timings, better multitask, there are many things you can use to win beyond just micro even if you're opponent has full vision.
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vikings have a vision range of 10?...maybe on the ground.
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On October 13 2010 00:06 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 15:45 Gnial wrote:On October 11 2010 15:01 superstartran wrote:
Also, Gnial himself said that Marine/Ghost is a counter to his strat, which *gasp* is exactly the unit composition that Brat_OK's opening/general strategy calls for. Proxy VR is one of the easiest builds to counter in the game, and hardly any top player gets beaten by it (especially top Korean pros, although they slip up once in awhile) because they scan, they open early aggression for poking/punishing greedy players, etc.
I don't recall saying that ^^ Marine/Ghost = potential counter in your first post in that thread.
You must have missed the ? after it. And when I mentioned I have never had trouble with it.
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there is a really simple argument against what the OP says....
Why is it so bad that you gotta change your BO to counter this 1 strat when us protoss gotta 2 gate robo pretty much all the time or die to cloacked banshees or just mmm early on? its the same... we gotta go whit BOs we dont want to use just to be safe from your strategies and you gotta do the same.
god terrans are so spoiled
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On October 13 2010 03:24 Panzamelano wrote:
god terrans are so spoiled
Sums up this thread perfectly.
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I know this is a TvP thread but I just faced a void ray rush in PvP, and it was just rediculously tough getting any harras or pressure with his early forge and he was able to defend easily with cannons and by pre-charging on his own buildings and not moving on the offensive until he hit critical mass with + speed. was extremely frustrating throwing up 2 stargates and have my phoenixs and stalker mix get TORN UP. the whole pre-charging on your own buildings (or rocks, for that matter) is pretty lame, IMO.
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On October 13 2010 03:24 Panzamelano wrote:
there is a really simple argument against what the OP says....
Why is it so bad that you gotta change your BO to counter this 1 strat when us protoss gotta 2 gate robo pretty much all the time or die to cloacked banshees or just mmm early on? its the same... we gotta go whit BOs we dont want to use just to be safe from your strategies and you gotta do the same.
god terrans are so spoiled
wish i had one build i could go every game which would let me feel safe and dont end behind vs any build my opponent chooses, god protoss players are so spoiled
ps. going robo every game was also the case in bw, how the hell can u complain about having such versatile and good build which in theory can counter any build terran throws at you
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
On October 13 2010 03:36 Payout wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 03:24 Panzamelano wrote:
there is a really simple argument against what the OP says....
Why is it so bad that you gotta change your BO to counter this 1 strat when us protoss gotta 2 gate robo pretty much all the time or die to cloacked banshees or just mmm early on? its the same... we gotta go whit BOs we dont want to use just to be safe from your strategies and you gotta do the same.
god terrans are so spoiled wish i had one build i could go every game which would let me feel safe and dont end behind vs any build my opponent chooses, god protoss players are so spoiled ps. going robo every game was also the case in bw, how the hell can u complain about having such versatile and good build which in theory can counter any build terran throws at you
Because you're putting it off like its a good thing, basically, we cant open with citadel.
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because i dont like having to do the same build over and over... id like to be able to go for other stuff... instead of a robo a council into hts + zealots whit charge or going for stargate play and that kind of stuff witouth just knowing that if i even try them im dead if the terran by any chance scouts me. thats why.
also... most of terran builds do fine against Everything you can throw at them (except this voidray + gateway units push which needs a better BO to be stopped than most of our strats)so your argument of "oh i wish i had this 1 build that can save me of anything" cause if you just spent a bit more time working on the builds to make them safer you would be 100% safe against anything whit almost all your builds (comeon most of terran builds are pretty much safe of everything you can throw at them).
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On October 09 2010 15:02 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:52 TyrantPotato wrote:
2000 diamond still having trouble against proxy stargates.
thats the point of building a proxy stargate. if they cant find it they reap the rewards.
its like me building a proxy starport and going banshee cloaked cheese. if i win does that mean banshees design is flawed. or is it because it was a risky flip of the coin strat.
It's not really the same thing at all. Proxy stargate forces T to produce vikings. Cloak banshees dumps 200 gas into a dead-end tech if P has observers (and they almost always will) and it doesn't really force anything except a couple mineral-only cannons.
Since when are banshees a dead end, they deal terrible, terrible damage.
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Did anyone else catch the first replay where the Terran player ASKS the Toss player to do this build, then proceeds to lose to it? Kind of funny getting owned when you knew voids were coming.
Secondly, I've used this build it CAN be good but it can just as easily be countered. There is a huge window for the T player to rush,. In that first replay if the Terran waited for the Force field to wear off and then pushed he would have won as the P player had nothing.
Also if the Terran player intercepted the Protoss player on his way to the base he would have won. In fact, when I've tried this build Terran who beat me catch me halfway to their base with uncharged Voids = gg. Don't see how you can complain when you didn't scout, didn't push, and hid in your base waiting to lose.
That said, Voids may be slightly OP if they are not countered/scouted properly, they seem a tad too powerful sometimes and this coming from a Toss player. 2 or 3 charged voids in your base early = gg if you're not ready. No other unit punishes you has hard as Voids if you're not prepared. However Marauders are worse, which Terran use every single game and are a lot cheaper and less risky then going Voids.
Moral of the story - scout and be prepared.
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This thread needs to be closed and stickied as an example of how a good OP can lead to a garbage pile of awful posts. It's a travesty and makes me really depressed to be a part of the same community as 90% of the posters here.
Not to mention the complete disrespect for Linko. I don't even want to start on that.
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It's not a good OP. It concludes a unit is broken because the OP can't figure out how to stop an attack including it. It includes 2 replays with shitty play to "support" this. The OP was not interested in all in a discussion on how to beat this, as illustrated with the retarded poll it includes.
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Boohoo. You will lose to it if the other player plays well and you don't scout it. That's supposed to happen. How do you think zerg feels in ZvT? Void rays shouldn't be changed just because you don't know at this point in time how to deal with it effectively. They're already quite situational, too be honest.
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I think Void Rays should not be able to charge on rocks or their own structures or units. This would solve the the majority of issues related to them.
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Good players don't find design flaws, they find workarounds.
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On October 13 2010 02:11 slam wrote:
This thread is crap. As the rules of the strategy forum state, give proof. I see no proof of Terran responding well to this strategy and still getting steamrolled.
Yes, if poorly responded, Voidrays can be very unforgiving. But they are not hard to counter and I do not believe that they are over powered.
EDIT: this is not so much directed to the OP. More so to all the QQ going on as a response.
The only way to respond well (if you look through the replays shown) is to go a variation of 3 rax or marine/ghost, both of which are suboptimal against pretty much any other p build. And because you can't realistically scout this build, it essentially forces you to do this every game.
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On October 12 2010 17:13 sleepingdog wrote:
I agree, terran should not be forced to play 3rax, this would be stupid because very inflexible; nevertheless there are TONS of other openings available to terran, many of them less effective vs robo-play than pure/greedy 1/1/1 but much more safe vs void rays;
a) 2 rax reactor first: demuslims standard opening, can lead to the very dangerous marine/banshee/raven timing but also allows for flexible transitions into MMM if protoss eg. goes tech-heavy (aka stargate and TC of one base to counter banshees); seen it work on pro-level numerous times
b) 1/1/1 supported with 2 turrets directly up the ramp; void rays can't break this: turrets are not there to kill but to buy time for vikings; if void rays shoot at turrets they shoot at nothing else instead; the turrets must be placed a little bit back so that void rays can not shoot at them without exposing them to marines (very critical, otherwise charged rays will just pick them up without taking much damage); you will lose your bunker, you will lose at least one turret, but this "should" allow you to get one viking out and the other one in construction; vikings can kite void rays indefinitely, I've seen on viking kill two pre-charged void rays because they just wouldn't get a shot off
c) 1/1/1 with one viking "blind" - admittedly compromises the effectiveness of 1/1/1; but then again I don't see how this could screw up 1/1/1 altogether; it destroys the effectiveness of the hellion drop, but hey, who said that hellion drop should always be safe? it's damn strong as it is; now you'll say one viking will achieve nothing? true: nevertheless you can use the viking to scout for proxy-pylons/etc. ASAP - if there's nothing in the area, then there won't be a pre-charge any time soon; the reason is very simple: the frickin probe needs ages to get to your ramp, if there simply is no probe then there won't be a pylon;
also scouting for armies/probes is undervalued in this thread, again because of the meta-game: this scouting can be very easily achieved on delta quadrant and xel naga: once you control the tower(s) there are few ways a probe or units can take to get to your ramp; if your tower-control gets challanged by a strangely small warpgate-force without any robo-support, you MUST get suspicious because of the meta-game aspect - WHY...just why on earth would any protoss player in his right mind move out with his gateway army at THIS point in the game, when the risk of drops is extremely high? and potentially game ending?
a protoss-player will simply NEVER move out in the mid-game unless (!) he has immortals; immortals allow for strong pushes vs small MM-numbers - but without immortals protoss is toast in mid-game; everyone knows this; therefore, what is a gateway-only force doing in the middle of the map in midgame? he has no business being there, unless something fishy is going on; I'd suggest you watch especially those pro-reps (or your own games) where protoss goes for robo-builds and observe the army-movement of protoss until colossi or early immortals are out: well - in 90% of the matches there simply is none!
the other 10% of the protoss-players are obviously keen on getting their probes roasted vs hellion-drops, because no protoss in his right mind would try to pressure with gateway-only vs 1/1/1
Looking at your suggestions, I would like to respond:
a) if you go pure marine, how on earth will you move out without stalker kiting you all day long? You need either marauders with shells or stim to prevent that. Granted I haven't played this, but I believe it delays your marine/banshee timing by a ton.
b) in the early stages of the 1/1/1 money is really tight. I don't know where I should pull 325 min from. Besides there is barely a placement, where voids cannot focus the bunker out of turret range or just take down the turrets out of bunker range. Especially when it has to be out of stalker range, too. Then there is also another problem: Split forces. Voids in the back while the rest hits your front. You better have 2+ bunkers and SCVs already in place etc. provided you have more than 15 marines to man the bunkers AND combat the voidrays.
c) 1 Viking indeed does little. So i don't understand why you bring it up. You won't have enough stuff to block his attack if you went 1/1/1, as nothing the factory makes is strong enough and you get hit when the first viking is done if the toss goes for 2 VR. Yes, you can scout, but that just means the viking gets hit by stalkers and he precharges his voids in your face on the building pylon.
To the scouting:
As I have written in my ignored post (bottom p 21), 1 roaming stalker can easily kill anything you field early as long as you don't make marauders with shells (which eats into your marine count). True, midgame the toss rarely moves out, as soon as marauders are on the field, but with marauders on the field, the voidrays probably won't need the ground support. Also note the timing of the push: shortly after the first air unit has been completed in a 1/1/1 setup. There is no game ending drop. Sure, hellions could roast each and every of your drone, but not having a base or army is worse.
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Would marine/tank combination work? Would slow 2/1/1 work? Is fast tech 1/1/1 build so sacred so that you ought to be able to play it blindly against anything?
I am not a terran (not a protoss either so I do not really care) but the statements alike to "blind 1/1/1 does not work" just make me laugh. I think it is perfectly OK to not be able to safely tech to whatever unit composition. Just tech slower. And if as a result T will be equal to P in early game rather than having distinct advantage and thus suck in late game? Great! In next patches/expansions T will get buffed and you will actually have an option to play macro terran!
On the other side if it is really rock paper scissors even when all the scouting measures fail, then I concur than something has to be done. Even indirect scouting (gas timing, army composition, weird behavior of units etc.), you know, the stuff Z needs to do every game.
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i watched the replay, here are some tips.
Steppes of war the fight could have been a lot closer.
1) don't fight at your ramp! (void rays can cliff ya)
2) therefore don't even bunker it, it gives something the voids to keep their charge on instead of their own units
3) kite/bait the protoss into your base. If you do this right he will either lose the charge or damage his own units. You need to engage such that the voids are far from the cliff, and the army has not fanned out yet.
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So I've been thinking about this in the morning. Charging beam is a very interesting ability and it's very mechanically demanding and exciting to watch. However, massive amount of charged void ray can pose a huge problem in team games as well as lower level game, and evidently higher level game as well.
What I purpose here, is to change the void ray beam's behavior so it will charge up much quicker, but lose charge when its target dies. Meanwhile, the mothership will be given a beam similar to what the void ray has now, except twice as powerful. This enable some amazing charged mothership play without making it too powerful (you can't hit and run with MS, you can't make 30 MS and kill a base in 30 seconds)
I believe this will allow more mothership play as well as making mass void ray less frustrating to deal against.
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making the voidray charge go away after switching targets would make a unit that is WAY too situational now into a unit no one will ever use...cause comeon... who would want voidrays when they are so fragile and now losing their main use... their huge dps when charged? nty ill go for carriers instead lol
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So I've studied the reps provided and done some testing myself, plus what i've seen work against me.
Some thoughts
- Going 1 1 1 vs this build is fine, if you build marines while you can. Get a reactor and a tech lab from the factory, and put the reactor on the starport and tech lab on the barracks. Then switch to marauders, get a mix of vikings and medivacs, and get a second or third barracks for marines. You should have enough marines to hold off the first void ray. You will want a bunker to hold off an early push, but salvage it once you get marauders out.
- Remember you can land your vikings once the void rays are dealt with - they are worth a stalker each.
- You can surround the enemy stalkers with your scvs if you can lure him up the ramp, they will do pretty well actually, you'll be ahead on scvs anyway and you still have your mules.
- Stim doesn't help against charged void rays - it's good for sniping void rays, and killing them before they get charged, but it won't let you kill them with less losses if they're already charged. Get marine shield to kill more void rays with less marines. Then get stim and concussive shell to help your marauders stutter step against the stalkers.
Once the push has been survived you can do whatever you want. You could have a medivac and hellions, or maybe 6 vikings to land in his mineral patch while you pressure his front. Or you could just safely expand since it'll take a while for him to make more void rays and you'll be stronger than him then.
Make sure to scout to see if he expanded.
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On October 13 2010 04:55 PROJECTILE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 02:11 slam wrote:
This thread is crap. As the rules of the strategy forum state, give proof. I see no proof of Terran responding well to this strategy and still getting steamrolled.
Yes, if poorly responded, Voidrays can be very unforgiving. But they are not hard to counter and I do not believe that they are over powered.
EDIT: this is not so much directed to the OP. More so to all the QQ going on as a response. The only way to respond well (if you look through the replays shown) is to go a variation of 3 rax or marine/ghost, both of which are suboptimal against pretty much any other p build. And because you can't realistically scout this build, it essentially forces you to do this every game. As to scouting this build if it is indeed proxy/hidden that is kind of the point (if in base throw a scan or sac a reaper). There should be ways to be tricky and catch your opponent off-guard (and there is risk involved with putting tech in a undefended position). But also you ought to be able to see that something is fishy when your opponent only has 2 gates and no other tech and their army size is somewhat lacking and there is no expansion or units hanging outside natural waiting for expansion.
Why can't you counter with vikings? (I'm actually curious because they have crushed me many times before.)
Especially since vikings will be useful with dealing with colossus as well which are very popular PvT.
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On October 13 2010 08:43 GoldenH wrote:
- Going 1 1 1 vs this build is fine, if you build marines while you can. Get a reactor and a tech lab from the factory, and put the reactor on the starport and tech lab on the barracks. Then switch to marauders, get a mix of vikings and medivacs, and get a second or third barracks for marines. You should have enough marines to hold off the first void ray. You will want a bunker to hold off an early push, but salvage it once you get marauders out.
...
Once the push has been survived you can do whatever you want. You could have a medivac and hellions, or maybe 6 vikings to land in his mineral patch while you pressure his front. Or you could just safely expand since it'll take a while for him to make more void rays and you'll be stronger than him then.
Make sure to scout to see if he expanded.
This.
Very affective in dealing with any Vray builds and transitions nicely.
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On October 09 2010 16:22 thesauceishot wrote:
Toss player here. I think the mechanic should be adjusted, but not to the solution that you've provided. I wouldn't mind seeing a faster charge with a lower max damage output. They just feel like such a huge commitment and are not consistently effective, when banshees and mutas are more versatile.
i like this sorta thing, not to lower it so much that it doesnt really need to charge, but a lower gap between charged and uncharged would be good
it also sorts out some issues with mass vr weak charge killing targets before any of the vrs actually charge
(not that its very practical)
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the 3 gate voidray build is so similar to the reaver bulldog in SC1.
basically the best way to deal with it is to know if your opponent expanded + his stalker count. if he has no expo and lots of stalkers you can probly guess that 3 bunkers is a good idea. idk why people keep mentioning 1 1 1 like its good, but 1 1 1 is only good if you rush banshees (or i guess the hellion drop stuff).
A super popular build right now is 2 rax (1 tech 1 reactor) into reactored starport, and the delayed reaper in this build can hopefully give you the info you in time to throw up the bunkers/start building viking medivac. The reaper should be able to scout at least if he has an expo or his gateway count, and if you see 3 gate no robo in the main you can pretty much assume its either DTs, proxy startgate, or proxy robo trying to do some gay warp prism antics. you can be safe against all of these with 2-3 bunkers at the front + turret, so you dont really need to find where the stargate is. However, its kind of a shit show if you happen to miss the proxy pylon or voids coming, but if you defend the rush then you basically win when medivac count gets high enough so its not so bad.
what the real problem is comes in actually defending this shit with little to no warning. with like 1 forcefield protoss can totally fuck your ability to repair bunkers as well as get your units to actually shoot. I would have to agree that actually not dying to this is pretty damn hard
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I blame this to poor scouting. If you are pushing his front with even an SCV you will be able to tell that he is not at the unit numbers he should be at... Which should trigger you to scan and prepare for fishy play anyway.
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I've had this used on me before (1100 Diamond), I scouted it coming (Having had gone FE bioball), and just started to pump marines in addition to placing a missile turret at my choke (I was walled off)- did things correctly, maybe my micro was off or my macro was off, but either way at the end I lost my entire army, and his army was more or less intact (to the point where I don't think not having made mistakes would have made a difference)
I dislike the idea of most of the proposed VR nerfs- I believe the nerf should be "unable to charge on friendly buildings"- neutrals are still ok. (Maybe people will get in the habit of killing the rocks near their base then to stop neutral charge)
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On October 13 2010 04:07 Floophead_III wrote:
This thread needs to be closed and stickied as an example of how a good OP can lead to a garbage pile of awful posts. It's a travesty and makes me really depressed to be a part of the same community as 90% of the posters here.
Not to mention the complete disrespect for Linko. I don't even want to start on that.
Um, there's complete disrespect for Link because standard 2 Rax Aggression which every Korean T does would have raped this. Not to mention that a simple scan would have immediately told him what was going to happen.
You don't have to be a genius to figure out that in game 2 the T had the game won if he grew a pair of balls and just went up the ramp. Any standard 2 rax aggression is hard to hold even with standard play if you aren't careful with your FFing, so what makes you think a non-sentry build is going to have any hope of holding it together?
If you as a T player are not pressing the P player early or at least forcing him to dedicate gas to defend your pushes, then you're doing something wrong. He allowed the P to take the initiative, did not punish him when he had the chance, did not scout properly, and was simply too passive the entire time.
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The fact he's getting three Voidrays means his army will be significantly smaller, and a scan near his entrance (if he's the type to move units back so a scouting SCV can't see how many of what he has) or just running an SCV up to see what it dies to can easily show you if he's teching or at least spending lots of resources on something other then what killed the scv. 3VRs account for 750mins and 450gas, with a scan it becomes very noticeable if he's hiding something, that or just has seriously bad macro in which case you should steam roll him.
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voids easier to scout for than banshee.....
honestly as a full time toss player, never plays terran, I hate using voids, especially agaisnt terrans, rines n viking too strong. People always say oh man, these void rays just came in and blew up all my stuff. IT is NOT EASY TO CHARGE UP VOID RAYS, even harder to keep them charged. In big numbers (over6) you cant even get them charged unless you micro them to shoot at seperate buildings at once(also not easy), otherwise they will destroy whatever they are shooting before charging up.
IF void rays got changed to this, "Lose charge between targets", than you mine as well get rid of the unit completely. BECAUSE THEY WILL NEVER CHARGE UP(wtf is the point of charging then?they will be charged up and do full damage for like 1 millisecond). They would ONLY be useful agaisnt massive units then, ie bc's or ultras. You would jsut have to change their damage to something Like a viking, but with ground targeting, and beef the range up again, which loses teh unqiue-ness of protoss, something blizzard wont do.
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random player here:
dont know how may wins ive gotten by proxy void ray vs terran or zerg because i know how hard it is to stop if scouted 30 seconds too late. i think TOO MANY.... it feels so cheese i stopped doing it.
i hate voidrays in ffa's!! i dont know how many times i've lost a 4 ffa after killing 2 ppl but the 3rd just masses void rays and wins even though im so far ahead economically. but by the time i get the correct counter units they are fully charged and wrecking my base. its like if i see a toss in a ffa i have to automatically make a shit load of marines stalkers or corrupters. taking away from fun unit composition. getting beat by a FE cannon void ray cheese is too common. any idiot can do it thats why i see it so much. almost as newb as 4 gate..
i know some of u will say well u should have scouted. bc;s or mass banshee or mass muta is just as bad.... ect.. but they are not nearly the same... mass void rays are the gayest shit in the game after they have been charged. sure its easy to stop if it's 1v1 and u build the counter unit early enough because your scouting him all game... but i truely think the mass voidray is a mass newb cheese unit.
also a few times when i've played terran 1v1 and i went a marine heavy build but was just enough out of position for them to get charged i've lost... i went back looked at the replay.. according to my build i should have crushed him.. but since he got charged and i didnt have vicking i got owned. it also got to the point where i build extra queens just to be safe. gimmick
they should do more initial damage and less charged damage.
mark my words the unit will be changed sooner or later u watch and see
forgive my spelling
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I'd also tentatively lend support to "remove charge on own units." I saw a 'toss player doing this today--the rocks you can kill (neutral charge) but letting the VR charge on the player's own units? There's no counter to this!
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On October 13 2010 11:19 SovereignGFC wrote:
I'd also tentatively lend support to "remove charge on own units." I saw a 'toss player doing this today--the rocks you can kill (neutral charge) but letting the VR charge on the player's own units? There's no counter to this!
Do you have a way to balance them after you remove the charging on your own units? Or should we just stop using them?
Personally I think they should have a higher minimum damage, lower top end, but charge faster. That way they kill a Thor in the same speed, but aren't so useless against anything that can shoot up (if you're not charged).
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The first game is a 2450 resource army vs an 1325 resource army which is almost impossible to lose.
On top of that there is no combat shield so when the terran stims he has 35 hp instead of 45 hp which means you need 30% more marines and the terran runs into his own choke and doesn't focus fire the voids which do 3 times as much damage as the stalkers. And this just happens to be a map where it's extremely ez to precharge your voids.
To put this in perspective it's like a protoss trying to 3 gate with a semi fast expo and then when the terran does a 3 rax attack the protoss stalkers cut off his zealots and he gets destroyed. How would anyone think that's a fair example of something too powerful?
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Although I'm just a lowly silver player, I tried this build yesterday and didn't lose once out of a bunch of matches against terran. There are a few points where the Terran could concievably hit me early and I would be mostly undefended, but silver/gold terrans tend to just sit in their base building up marauder heavy MM so they lose automatically. Maybe terrans will have to get more aggressive early on to counter this build?
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How about you scan instead of being a greedy MULE'r?
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On October 13 2010 12:46 RiB wrote:
How about you scan instead of being a greedy MULE'r?
Been addressed. Terran without mules get fucking owned early game anyway.
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On October 13 2010 03:13 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 00:06 superstartran wrote:On October 12 2010 15:45 Gnial wrote:On October 11 2010 15:01 superstartran wrote:
Also, Gnial himself said that Marine/Ghost is a counter to his strat, which *gasp* is exactly the unit composition that Brat_OK's opening/general strategy calls for. Proxy VR is one of the easiest builds to counter in the game, and hardly any top player gets beaten by it (especially top Korean pros, although they slip up once in awhile) because they scan, they open early aggression for poking/punishing greedy players, etc.
I don't recall saying that ^^ Marine/Ghost = potential counter in your first post in that thread. You must have missed the ? after it. And when I mentioned I have never had trouble with it.
I'm guessing he simply scanned through your OP in the thread, instead of reading why your build works so well.
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Russian Federation145 Posts
On October 13 2010 12:40 Masayoshi wrote:
Although I'm just a lowly silver player, I tried this build yesterday and didn't lose once out of a bunch of matches against terran. There are a few points where the Terran could concievably hit me early and I would be mostly undefended, but silver/gold terrans tend to just sit in their base building up marauder heavy MM so they lose automatically. Maybe terrans will have to get more aggressive early on to counter this build?
How do you get aggressive as terran early on? Do you mean like a BBS build? Million man? Any aggression terran has really comes after this protoss push.
You didn't get the point of this thread. The push can be stopped and beaten by any 3barracks build that has at least one reactor. The problem is that 3barracks get owned by anything that isn't this build or 4gate. Protoss doesn't have any such problems with any terran builds.
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Be aggressive with a some marine marauders and either a floating proxy rax or a scan. Then watch the protoss player QQ if he built a walloff as you destroy every building there, or have to pull his army back or lose it, thus not being able to get vision so he knows when to FF. If he is doing this build, he WILL have to bring his VR to defend, thus letting you know what he is doing and allowing you to respond appropriately.
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The Void ray is a glass cannon after all, Marines half its value can kill it pretty quickly.
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I would think that if they only had 2 gates then you know its going to be either fast templar fast robo or fast stargate and you only hide one of those sorts of tech...... if you scan and see 2 gates and nothing else then look at the time frame of the game and prepare
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On October 13 2010 13:02 TheDrill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 12:40 Masayoshi wrote:
Although I'm just a lowly silver player, I tried this build yesterday and didn't lose once out of a bunch of matches against terran. There are a few points where the Terran could concievably hit me early and I would be mostly undefended, but silver/gold terrans tend to just sit in their base building up marauder heavy MM so they lose automatically. Maybe terrans will have to get more aggressive early on to counter this build? How do you get aggressive as terran early on? Do you mean like a BBS build? Million man? Any aggression terran has really comes after this protoss push. You didn't get the point of this thread. The push can be stopped and beaten by any 3barracks build that has at least one reactor. The problem is that 3barracks get owned by anything that isn't this build or 4gate. Protoss doesn't have any such problems with any terran builds.
No need to bite my head off, just a suggestion.
It can be beaten by 3barracks head to head, that doesn't mean you can't stop it before it comes up by getting some more bio early or hellions even. Watching pro matches, it seems that they harass so early and so often, builds like this wont work at all because it leaves the Protoss with nothing to defend in the early game. If a pro Terran is harrassing and catches his opponent with only a sentry and a stalker defending the ramp, its unlikely he would just retreat.
What if terrans scan the ramp at about 6-7 minutes every game, if there's nothing substantial there, attack. If there is a sizeable force, he probably doesn't have the resources to go void.
You are saying that Protoss players don't have to build to robo specifically to deal with basically everything the Terran can possibly do?
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On October 13 2010 13:18 Ssoulle wrote:
The Void ray is a glass cannon after all, Marines half its value can kill it pretty quickly.
Hahaha only to a protoss would a 250hp range 6 flying unit be a glass cannon.
Try microing units with 45 hp.
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On October 13 2010 13:54 Monkey5020 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 13:18 Ssoulle wrote:
The Void ray is a glass cannon after all, Marines half its value can kill it pretty quickly. Hahaha only to a protoss would a 250hp range 6 flying unit be a glass cannon. Try microing units with 45 hp.
A glass cannon refers to something that deals out a lot more damage than it can take, not something that just dies quickly.
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Don't wall off, get stim on your marines. Solved.
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I'm fine with Void Rays losing their charge after switching targets if Marines and Marauders lose their Stim after switching targets. As of right now, MM are too good against everything and is not fun at all to play against. Stim is a very broken mechanic and makes them the most cost effective units in the game. MM should go back to being only good against Battlecruisers/Vikings where they belong. As a result, you can make Stim charge up faster.
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Void Rays are bad design overall, if you scout it, you counter and win, if you dont you lose...
..oh wait a moment, isn't that right almost half of the BOs currently out?
cloacked banshee vs templarplay
1/1/1 vs collo
1 rack expo vs 4 gate
and so on
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On October 13 2010 09:30 GreEny K wrote:
I blame this to poor scouting. If you are pushing his front with even an SCV you will be able to tell that he is not at the unit numbers he should be at... Which should trigger you to scan and prepare for fishy play anyway.
Any scouting will reveal 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry, which is doable no matter what build they go. This just tells you nothing at all and in no way should trigger you to waste much needed early game resources for a scan that - at best - reveals 70% of his base.
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On October 13 2010 15:38 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 09:30 GreEny K wrote:
I blame this to poor scouting. If you are pushing his front with even an SCV you will be able to tell that he is not at the unit numbers he should be at... Which should trigger you to scan and prepare for fishy play anyway. Any scouting will reveal 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry, which is doable no matter what build they go. This just tells you nothing at all and in no way should trigger you to waste much needed early game resources for a scan that - at best - reveals 70% of his base.
if you micro you scv it should live until he has a stalker, wont that show you his pylons and then you know where to scan? could you use the factory to scout? could u have sensor tower to engage voidray before they charge?
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On October 13 2010 05:10 Thrombozyt wrote:
Looking at your suggestions, I would like to respond:
a) if you go pure marine, how on earth will you move out without stalker kiting you all day long? You need either marauders with shells or stim to prevent that. Granted I haven't played this, but I believe it delays your marine/banshee timing by a ton.
I even provided a source - eg. demuslim 2-0ed naniwa lately (EPS I think) with this exact BO; since it opens with pure marines AND stim it is the basic definition of an anti-void-ray opening and still not tailored to it but supposed to kill an expo-ing or robo-heavy toss right now (which it did)
b) in the early stages of the 1/1/1 money is really tight. I don't know where I should pull 325 min from. Besides there is barely a placement, where voids cannot focus the bunker out of turret range or just take down the turrets out of bunker range. Especially when it has to be out of stalker range, too. Then there is also another problem: Split forces. Voids in the back while the rest hits your front. You better have 2+ bunkers and SCVs already in place etc. provided you have more than 15 marines to man the bunkers AND combat the voidrays.
it's really a question of placement and micro; if you place the turrets correctly (NOT directly at the front but a little bit behind the ramp) then the void rays have to move just far enough forward so your marines can shoot at them while the stalkers down the ledge can not touch the marines; test it, it is perfectly do-able; as I said, turrets are not there to kill but to force the rays to shoot at them - meaning marines live
c) 1 Viking indeed does little. So i don't understand why you bring it up. You won't have enough stuff to block his attack if you went 1/1/1, as nothing the factory makes is strong enough and you get hit when the first viking is done if the toss goes for 2 VR. Yes, you can scout, but that just means the viking gets hit by stalkers and he precharges his voids in your face on the building pylon.
1 viking provides all the scouting-intel you need - as I said it's a question of scouting; don't see a probe heading towards you? no pre-charge anytime soon; see something fishy, then you know you need a 2nd viking ASAP; with two vikings you can intercept void rays already quite effectively with hit/run and move out while they are preparing for their charge-up; I really, really encourage everyone to try this out yourselves: you will be full of adrenaline while you prepare for the charge because once you've played this a couple of games you know that THIS is when you are really vulnerable since charge-less void rays are crap in midgame
To the scouting:
As I have written in my ignored post (bottom p 21), 1 roaming stalker can easily kill anything you field early as long as you don't make marauders with shells (which eats into your marine count). True, midgame the toss rarely moves out, as soon as marauders are on the field, but with marauders on the field, the voidrays probably won't need the ground support. Also note the timing of the push: shortly after the first air unit has been completed in a 1/1/1 setup. There is no game ending drop. Sure, hellions could roast each and every of your drone, but not having a base or army is worse.
you misunderstood my post - it's all about metagame; protoss knows that marauders will kill anything he has, therefore he will stay in his base; the ONLY situation where protoss can really afford to move out is either with tons of immortals OR with (proxied) void rays; also, protoss knows that hellion drops will kill him - again, the ONLY situation where protoss can afford losing almost all of his probes is when he intends to outright kill his opponent;
you are completely missing my point, I never said that marauders or hellions "counter" void rays, how stupid would that be; exactly the opposite, when you see a protoss-player out in the field in early midgame you know that he doesn't FEAR marauders and hellion drops; now why would a protoss NOT fear this? there you go, void rays are the only reason why a protoss in his right mind would take such a risk
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On October 13 2010 13:02 ToiletDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 03:13 Gnial wrote:On October 13 2010 00:06 superstartran wrote:On October 12 2010 15:45 Gnial wrote:On October 11 2010 15:01 superstartran wrote:
Also, Gnial himself said that Marine/Ghost is a counter to his strat, which *gasp* is exactly the unit composition that Brat_OK's opening/general strategy calls for. Proxy VR is one of the easiest builds to counter in the game, and hardly any top player gets beaten by it (especially top Korean pros, although they slip up once in awhile) because they scan, they open early aggression for poking/punishing greedy players, etc.
I don't recall saying that ^^ Marine/Ghost = potential counter in your first post in that thread. You must have missed the ? after it. And when I mentioned I have never had trouble with it. I'm guessing he simply scanned through your OP in the thread, instead of reading why your build works so well.
Why my build worked* so well - past tense, haha. Doing the build I have posted can work, but it isn't as strong as it once was when I first posted it. Thats not to say it won't get you far, and won't work some of the time at high levels - but there are versions I consider better being used on the ladder and in tournaments.
Personally, I no longer use solely stalkers - rather I prefer a zealot-stalker composition. And whenever I can I try to do the white-ra build posted below; but note that it is map/position specific. Nowadays I only do 1-gate into stargate for my opening, no longer the dual-stalker opening, and I do early pressure with a quick chrono'd zealot, followed by a stalker.
White-ra has been doing a very similar build with quite a lot of success (I have mostly just copied him ^^). I've seen him lose with it a couple of times, and win with it many more times. He uses zealots instead of stalkers, and tries to circumvent the ramp completely. I have tried it numerous times and I have had a ton of success with it. (although I didn't save reps, so attribute whatever value you want to my personal testimony)
For some reason, I can only find 2 of the replays, so you'll have to make what you will with these. One is a win and one is a loss.
Win
http://www.mediafire.com/?c8d8dh3me9u942q
Loss
http://www.mediafire.com/?xos35x6izil6o5t
In the loss I don't know what white-ra was doing; on one base he did void ray + templar tech + late expand, and made almost no units after his initial harass/all-in, which may have worked out if he hadn't failed his void ray micro so badly. I've seen white-ra lag badly in some of his games, so maybe this is one of them - although since that game was on the Europe server perhaps that excuse isn't relevant.
I think if you try to look at the build for what works and what could work you should come away with a positive feel about it despite the fact that he lost. For instance, imagine if he hadn't suicided 2 (or 3 depending on how nice you want to be to him) void rays.He could have kept threatening with those void rays and prevented strelok from committing to such a powerful counter attack.
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On October 13 2010 16:49 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 05:10 Thrombozyt wrote:
Looking at your suggestions, I would like to respond:
a) if you go pure marine, how on earth will you move out without stalker kiting you all day long? You need either marauders with shells or stim to prevent that. Granted I haven't played this, but I believe it delays your marine/banshee timing by a ton. I even provided a source - eg. demuslim 2-0ed naniwa lately (EPS I think) with this exact BO; since it opens with pure marines AND stim it is the basic definition of an anti-void-ray opening and still not tailored to it but supposed to kill an expo-ing or robo-heavy toss right now (which it did) Show nested quote +b) in the early stages of the 1/1/1 money is really tight. I don't know where I should pull 325 min from. Besides there is barely a placement, where voids cannot focus the bunker out of turret range or just take down the turrets out of bunker range. Especially when it has to be out of stalker range, too. Then there is also another problem: Split forces. Voids in the back while the rest hits your front. You better have 2+ bunkers and SCVs already in place etc. provided you have more than 15 marines to man the bunkers AND combat the voidrays. it's really a question of placement and micro; if you place the turrets correctly (NOT directly at the front but a little bit behind the ramp) then the void rays have to move just far enough forward so your marines can shoot at them while the stalkers down the ledge can not touch the marines; test it, it is perfectly do-able; as I said, turrets are not there to kill but to force the rays to shoot at them - meaning marines live Show nested quote +c) 1 Viking indeed does little. So i don't understand why you bring it up. You won't have enough stuff to block his attack if you went 1/1/1, as nothing the factory makes is strong enough and you get hit when the first viking is done if the toss goes for 2 VR. Yes, you can scout, but that just means the viking gets hit by stalkers and he precharges his voids in your face on the building pylon. 1 viking provides all the scouting-intel you need - as I said it's a question of scouting; don't see a probe heading towards you? no pre-charge anytime soon; see something fishy, then you know you need a 2nd viking ASAP; with two vikings you can intercept void rays already quite effectively with hit/run and move out while they are preparing for their charge-up; I really, really encourage everyone to try this out yourselves: you will be full of adrenaline while you prepare for the charge because once you've played this a couple of games you know that THIS is when you are really vulnerable since charge-less void rays are crap in midgame Show nested quote +To the scouting:
As I have written in my ignored post (bottom p 21), 1 roaming stalker can easily kill anything you field early as long as you don't make marauders with shells (which eats into your marine count). True, midgame the toss rarely moves out, as soon as marauders are on the field, but with marauders on the field, the voidrays probably won't need the ground support. Also note the timing of the push: shortly after the first air unit has been completed in a 1/1/1 setup. There is no game ending drop. Sure, hellions could roast each and every of your drone, but not having a base or army is worse. you misunderstood my post - it's all about metagame; protoss knows that marauders will kill anything he has, therefore he will stay in his base; the ONLY situation where protoss can really afford to move out is either with tons of immortals OR with (proxied) void rays; also, protoss knows that hellion drops will kill him - again, the ONLY situation where protoss can afford losing almost all of his probes is when he intends to outright kill his opponent; you are completely missing my point, I never said that marauders or hellions "counter" void rays, how stupid would that be; exactly the opposite, when you see a protoss-player out in the field in early midgame you know that he doesn't FEAR marauders and hellion drops; now why would a protoss NOT fear this? there you go, void rays are the only reason why a protoss in his right mind would take such a risk
I agree, that 2rax with tech and reactor to get stim will deal with voidrays. I hadn't seen the demuslim matches and from 2 rax reactor build I couldn't infer the stim which is needed to move out.
For the turrets you claimed intially (at least the way I read it) that you position them that the VR cannot attack either turret or bunker without being fired at by both. Which isn't possible given the ranges and footprints. Bunkering up away from your ramp, so that the bunkers and the turrets are not placed at an edge and the non-bunkered marines can move inbetween and support against the voidrays is nice - still you don't address the simple method to split your attack with voidrays in the back of the base and the gateway in front. Suddenly you have wasted 325 mins, which equals 1 rax and 3-4 marines. Given the timing of the attack, at least I cannot squeeze in turrets without either delaying the starport or skimping on SCVs/marines. So I don't feel like this is an option.
That leaves the viking. With the straight 1/1/1 build, you will get hit soon after your first viking. VRs have a range of 6, that means you have 12 distance units between the pylon and your first target and 18 units (because the VRs can charge up on the far side and then briefly touch the pylon twice to keep up the charge) between your ramp and the place the VRs charge up. The viking will show you, that he is charging up in your face, but little more. Yes, you can cancel your medivac/raven/banshee and get another viking that will come out 20-30 secs into the battle. I had the situation, but the voidrays had moved into my base from the back and were fighting next to my starport and a quick change of target and the viking was down without doing much. The 3/1/2 build used in the marine banshee timing push should be the perfect counter - you get the starport up ASAP, then have 3 rax to make marines and a techlab to research the upgrades. Still you end up with way too little stuff by the time the VR push happens, even if you get a viking first. Been there and lost :/
For the scouting:
So you bank your scouting on the metagame not letting him risk one stalker? Seems like the metagame that I play here is different, because I get the good old 1-stalker-poke from each opponent and they often keep him around unless he gets slowed and sees 2+ marauders. But it seems I have scouting problems anyhow, as I cannot ready a toss BO from the 2 stalker/1zealot/1sentry force at the top of his ramp.
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I think the Void Ray is a fantastic unit. Switching between different targets to juggle your charge makes for some beatiful micro potential, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
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oGsTop died to this build today in GOM Team Invitationnal on blistering.
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This post is a joke isn't? Before fixing VR please fix all the problems that make PvT so hard for the P part ... i guarantee you that 3 gate VD doesn't have a winning percentage as high as any one of the T openings ...
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On October 13 2010 22:51 Thrombozyt wrote:
For the scouting:
So you bank your scouting on the metagame not letting him risk one stalker?
huh? if he tries to challenge your tower-control you should definitely battle for it; I was speaking about if he moves out with his whole force - and plz don't tell me you can't keep map-control vs protoss before void rays are out? this would be ludicrous, terran early game dominates protoss; of course you can't read anything into one stalker, neither in the initial force up his ramp (I would never send a unit up there, in 99% of the cases he will have zealot/stalker/sentry in 1:2:1 proportion...no matter what...)
On October 13 2010 23:31 MrCon wrote:
oGsTop died to this build today in GOM Team Invitationnal on blistering.
I was waiting for this - yeah, FE with marauders definitely deserves to hold vs void rays lol
seriously, this was like the worst match to discuss balance of void rays;
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Went up against this build with 3rax MMM on shakuras plateau
Toss charged up 2 VRs on the rocks outside my door, and melted 3 bunkers with ease
MM army dead in 4 seconds to a handful of stalkers, a sentry, and charged up VRs
One of the most gut-wrenching pure BO losses I ever faced.
Instantly voted against shakuras plateau afterwards >=(
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i've lost to it plenty of times on steppes when they place the pylon on high ground near destructable rocks that allows warpins on the low ground as well. i think that it is gimmicky as hell and blocks the evolution of the terran metagame by forcing mass rax early games.
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On October 13 2010 23:54 jaerak wrote:
Toss charged up 2 VRs on the rocks outside my door, and melted 3 bunkers with ease
nevertheless you/we shouldn't mix up void-ray-discussion with map-discussion
void rays on shakuras ARE flawed because you can't prevent the charge-up in any way; the rocks are just frickin there, nothing that you could do about it....well...you could destroy them pre-emptively lol; but on "normal" maps the forward-pylon plays THE key role, and this can be scouted/prevented
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On October 13 2010 09:18 dekuschrub wrote:
the 3 gate voidray build is so similar to the reaver bulldog in SC1.
basically the best way to deal with it is to know if your opponent expanded + his stalker count. if he has no expo and lots of stalkers you can probly guess that 3 bunkers is a good idea. idk why people keep mentioning 1 1 1 like its good, but 1 1 1 is only good if you rush banshees (or i guess the hellion drop stuff).
A super popular build right now is 2 rax (1 tech 1 reactor) into reactored starport, and the delayed reaper in this build can hopefully give you the info you in time to throw up the bunkers/start building viking medivac. The reaper should be able to scout at least if he has an expo or his gateway count, and if you see 3 gate no robo in the main you can pretty much assume its either DTs, proxy startgate, or proxy robo trying to do some gay warp prism antics. you can be safe against all of these with 2-3 bunkers at the front + turret, so you dont really need to find where the stargate is. However, its kind of a shit show if you happen to miss the proxy pylon or voids coming, but if you defend the rush then you basically win when medivac count gets high enough so its not so bad.
what the real problem is comes in actually defending this shit with little to no warning. with like 1 forcefield protoss can totally fuck your ability to repair bunkers as well as get your units to actually shoot. I would have to agree that actually not dying to this is pretty damn hard
Yep, the bulldog opening is powerful because Terran players didn't know how to respond. They had to learn to keep an active tabulation on the protoss army in order to see if the protoss was doing a FE, dragoon / zealot style break in, or reavers.
Because of this style of play that a protoss player CAN do, it limited the amount of things a Terran player could reasonably open the game with and still be on even footing.
I think the 3gate stargate opening for protoss will function in a very similar fashion. Right now there is a menagerie of openings Terran can use. Now they'll have to prepare for this, whether actively (lots of marines) or passively (safe build orders), and this will seriously limit what is viable in the matchup. This is a good thing for the meta to stabilize.
Sure, it might be hard as balls for Terran players right now, but you'll have to tailor your build order to accommodate this strategy. Remember, there aren't may builds protoss players can do that will outright win the game for them. Contrasting it from the Terran side, there are a LOT of builds that can end the game for protoss if scouted improperly (3/1/2, banshee cloak, hellion drop, etc..). They are generally selecting a build order that will lead them to the late game where they can combat MMM / MMMG compositions. Terran just needs to stay on even footing throughout the match and not go for the easy win in the first 10 minutes. I think this is pretty reasonable. Once in the late game, Protoss is at a slight advantage due to templars, but Terran has plenty of options to choose from as well.
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On October 13 2010 23:45 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 22:51 Thrombozyt wrote:
For the scouting:
So you bank your scouting on the metagame not letting him risk one stalker? huh? if he tries to challenge your tower-control you should definitely battle for it; I was speaking about if he moves out with his whole force - and plz don't tell me you can't keep map-control vs protoss before void rays are out? this would be ludicrous, terran early game dominates protoss; of course you can't read anything into one stalker, neither in the initial force up his ramp (I would never send a unit up there, in 99% of the cases he will have zealot/stalker/sentry in 1:2:1 proportion...no matter what...) Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 23:31 MrCon wrote:
oGsTop died to this build today in GOM Team Invitationnal on blistering. I was waiting for this - yeah, FE with marauders definitely deserves to hold vs void rays lol seriously, this was like the worst match to discuss balance of void rays;
He scanned the stargate after 4 marauders and started pumping marines only at this point. Anyway my post was saying nothing about balance or not.
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On October 13 2010 23:45 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 22:51 Thrombozyt wrote:
For the scouting:
So you bank your scouting on the metagame not letting him risk one stalker? huh? if he tries to challenge your tower-control you should definitely battle for it; I was speaking about if he moves out with his whole force - and plz don't tell me you can't keep map-control vs protoss before void rays are out? this would be ludicrous, terran early game dominates protoss; of course you can't read anything into one stalker, neither in the initial force up his ramp (I would never send a unit up there, in 99% of the cases he will have zealot/stalker/sentry in 1:2:1 proportion...no matter what...)
Battle him how? If I have marauders and shells, then I have control anyhow and he won't move from his ramp, but then voidrays screw me for having too many marauders. The marines I want to make, won't catch the stalker, but get picked off by it. Terran early game dominates because of marauders and their shells. If I'm not getting them, I can chase the stalker all day long without success. Something I have also described on the p21 post: Terran in my experience is only dominant, if he invests in it by getting marauders - the unit he won't need against the voidrays and that delay the units that could help (marines by eating rax time and vikings by eating gas).
But now that you pick up the scouting topic:
How the hell am I supposed to scout in order to make a non-guessing decision about my unit comp?
Scanning obviously doesn't cut it, especially on maps with large mains (which are most of the maps) and voidrays strike just as my floating factory enters his base. You said yourself, that from poking I cannot deduce anything. So I invest in mapcontrol and get the warning that toss moves out - which are like 30-40 secs. Granted, that is enough to cancel a medivac and get a viking, but to really stop the push you need more marines and it is not enough time to get up extra rax.
I believe that is the reason for the opening post:
In order to be safe against this push, I more or less have to open with more than one barracks, as the starport won't be up in time to produce significant amounts of vikings. Stargate and starport require both 2 buildings before (rax/fact vs gate/cyber), just that the cybernetics core costs no gas and will therefore always go up before the factory. Thus I have to open 2 or 3 rax to be safe, which puts me behind against standard builds.
In comparison, toss sits in his base after his stalker has been chased away until obs, knows exactly what is coming and is fine against everything. Or do you know a terran build that punishes the standard robo build?
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On October 09 2010 14:16 link0 wrote:
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I think this design just makes T v P into a big build order poker because of the difficulty of scouting this.
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I think this is the best way to sum up the PvT (or TvP, if you lean that way) matchup I've read so far. I haven't experienced it personally at any high level recently, but it seems this way from all the PvT I've been watching in tournaments (I've been toying with the idea of switching to P from Z, not because of balance, but all the shiny units).
It seems like if P opens stargate, it straightjackets Terran into a bunch of builds that aren't optimal against standard play.
Then again, cloaked banshees are such a threat that Protoss feels straightjacketed into going robo for detection.
It really feels like a build-order-roulette -- you're gambling hoping that the other player isn't doing the one build that would screw you if you're going standard play, because if he is, you're going to almost auto-lose. And there's no reliable way to scout it in time.
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EDIT: Double post, sorry.
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VR charge should only last for as long as it has been charging on the main target once they switch. If it fired on a nexus for 10 seconds, then it will keep a 10 second charge. If it fired on a nexus untill it got charge, then it would keep like a 1 second charge, losing it before you could even switch to something else.
Switching targets once charged shouldn't renew the whole amount of charge time left. It should have a timer where it loses charge if it switches targets, untill it is off charge, then it can charge again on a single unit.
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On October 14 2010 02:31 P00RKID wrote:
VR charge should only last for as long as it has been charging on the main target once they switch. If it fired on a nexus for 10 seconds, then it will keep a 10 second charge. If it fired on a nexus untill it got charge, then it would keep like a 1 second charge, losing it before you could even switch to something else.
Switching targets once charged shouldn't renew the whole amount of charge time left. It should have a timer where it loses charge if it switches targets, untill it is off charge, then it can charge again on a single unit.
Please realize that after a change like this not a single void ray would be built ever again.
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Ive been working on this build and studying it alot for the past week. I've seen it beat with normal compositions (see Lucifron vs. Nani from last week or earlier this week... cant remember which map). I've glanced at this thread several times in the process as well and I have to say there is somethings I feel many players are overlooking... a big weakness that has nothing to do with composition or necessarily scouting the build... the fact that the protoss cant really engage you anywhere but near your base or his. Its the exact same reason a protoss player that waits for the raven timing push to be at his front door will lose 100% of the time as well. In fact, I would say the PDD at the protoss door is the equivalent in terms of raw power of a pre-charged void ray. A PDD that early in the game literally nullifies an entire important unit type for the protoss. Using 3 sentries to shoot down the PDD is a common "rosey" response I heard from people. "Just use a few sentries to shoot it down". This is much easier said than done, but more importantly makes the fight the terrans fight to lose. Similiarly, the void ray makes the fight protoss' fight to lose, because though difficult, perfect void ray control is near impossible to beat if the terran barely has the comp to cover it.
What do protoss do to prevent the insta-loss from a PDD at their front door? They engage mid-map where they can make the terran burn their PDD to buy time. The difference in the two examples is that the terran can flat out win at this timing if he meets the protoss mid-map with uncharged void rays. At worst it buys the terran additional time. The games ive lost with this strategy (not very many) have all involved a fight that started before I was set up. A stim'd marauder doesn't have enough HP to charge a void ray and a stage 2 void ray does the same damage as stage 1.
In a general sense, regarding the scouting argument, I think lower level terrans (sub 1500) that have not dabbled in the other races have to master the skill of counting with their initial and subsequent scouts. Often they seem to send their SCV in and see if I built a gas then turn around and leave. Im not sure what information theyre looking for, but I know they dont get it. Making reasonable conclusions based on what you see or dont see is a part of this game. Often when counting the front I see things that require me to prepare for MORE THAN ONE possibility. Its not easy to make a comp that will survive all the possbilities, but I don't think I've come across a game yet where I couldnt have. Its like those questions they give you on the law school admissions test... you'll have about half the information you really feel you need... but all the information is actually there... you just need to be... smarter.
Edit: One thing I missed involved strategy building...KCDC's now popular fast expand build was so well put-together and succesful because through tweaking and feedback on that thread, his build was able to account for every single timing window. First it was the cloaked banshee and 3 mara/1rine/1hellion poke, then it was certain timing pushes, and now its drops. Honestly all SOLID builds should take all of these timing windows into account. That build may not beat a certain timing window, but that doesnt make it unusable... it makes it another trick in your bag.
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Jayrod your'e correct but how can terran force protoss to engage mid map? If he moves his force out from his base and a void ray turns up at his mineral line that is game.
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On October 14 2010 08:00 Monkey5020 wrote:
Jayrod your'e correct but how can terran force protoss to engage mid map? If he moves his force out from his base and a void ray turns up at his mineral line that is game.
How is it different than a drop from terrans? except for protoss not having sensor tower?
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On October 14 2010 08:00 Monkey5020 wrote:
Jayrod your'e correct but how can terran force protoss to engage mid map? If he moves his force out from his base and a void ray turns up at his mineral line that is game.
How is this any different than Hellion harass/hellion drop though? The protoss can't push out with a full force without making a big sacrifice (either not warping in or not supplementing his force with warp ins.. wrong decision could mean a loss).
For that matter how is it any different than the protoss who has to meet the terran push mid-map? You have to know when they move out or you're exposed to drops .... you cant just plop your army down mid map and expect to well... not lose. Terran has the privelege of a scan... its 100% uncounterable information for a part of the map. There are clever ways to use it and dumb ways to use it and thats up to the terran to figure out. Other races in the meantime are more intent on holding towers or leaving a cheap unit/worker out in the attack path for information. Its a scouting issue to find out when an attack is coming... thats part of the game... for all the races and getting surprise attacked can make you lose in any match up vs any comp.
In practicing the build my practice partner and I basically concluded that in most cases its better to keep the VRs over your main army, because your ground army is simply so weak. With scouting information you will see that his ground army is literally mass stalkers, which will get shreaded by marauders even in small numbers...The mix I landed on as a protoss player is only slightly more stalkers than zealots... it helps tremendously against marauders. The problem with moving your void rays is simply that they suck on their own... Your bio ball will crush their ground force without the precharged VR support. If they just send the rays then that makes it a very easy win for you if you didnt completely commit to some timing push.
Its so crucial against every terran push to know when its coming.. its really super hard to defend any of the pushes as toss without looking at their army comp that is coming. I cant imagine terran is too used to being outright attacked by a timing push from toss... other than a crappy 4 warpgate, which im sure you've been trained by now to deal with.
My argument will remain at... if you engage a mass stalker void ray comp outside your base and his, you will crush him. If you don't, you better have the correct units to deal with it. How you scout it is up to you but its scoutable and beatable... just not easy. Hopefully at least a couple people benefit from engaging outside of the base with the same logic as the Stalker vs. raven approach for toss. It works.
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I play terran currently and i disagree, don't nerf void rays. I would like to play protoss some more but nerfing them even more is going to break the balance even at mid-level play.
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I totally agree op, every build order done blindly should be able to stop well timed attacks!
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No.
Many would argue SC2 is more pivotal on good scouting than its predecesor, and this is just an example. This is the game becoming a true competetive game, instead of a crap flinging contest. Over the course of SC2's lifespan, you're going to hear about/participate in a lot of "impossible to stop unless scouted" builds, and that's a "GOOD THING". And hell, Tester proved to us with good micro, even that's not true.
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I Had an amusing game last night, I had a dozen zealots and 3 VRs, when i got pushed by someone who did 2/1/1 with a raven, 5 marauders and 11 marines. I had not realized that VRs prioritzie ravens and PDDs over marines, but they do! So I didn't micro except to pre-charge my VRs (I was just screwing around and using my touchpad on my laptop, good luck microing with that). I lost my whole army and he only lost the raven, PDD, and 5 marines. It won't necessarily work, but definitely try dropping PDDs against void ray, he won't be able to attack move! (Hunter missile or Turret might also be a good try).
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On October 14 2010 10:34 GoldenH wrote:
I Had an amusing game last night, I had a dozen zealots and 3 VRs, when i got pushed by someone who did 2/1/1 with a raven, 5 marauders and 11 marines. I had not realized that VRs prioritzie ravens and PDDs over marines, but they do! So I didn't micro except to pre-charge my VRs (I was just screwing around and using my touchpad on my laptop, good luck microing with that). I lost my whole army and he only lost the raven, PDD, and 5 marines. It won't necessarily work, but definitely try dropping PDDs against void ray, he won't be able to attack move! (Hunter missile or Turret might also be a good try).
LoL, are you really discussing a game in which you played using trackpad?
Unless you have charge it makes sense that zealots wont do shit and it's your fault you didn't notice that your vrays were targeting PDD and raven. I doubt that vrays naturally target ravens over marines, it probably had to do with positioning.
Why would you even post this?
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On October 14 2010 11:10 slam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 10:34 GoldenH wrote:
I Had an amusing game last night, I had a dozen zealots and 3 VRs, when i got pushed by someone who did 2/1/1 with a raven, 5 marauders and 11 marines. I had not realized that VRs prioritzie ravens and PDDs over marines, but they do! So I didn't micro except to pre-charge my VRs (I was just screwing around and using my touchpad on my laptop, good luck microing with that). I lost my whole army and he only lost the raven, PDD, and 5 marines. It won't necessarily work, but definitely try dropping PDDs against void ray, he won't be able to attack move! (Hunter missile or Turret might also be a good try). LoL, are you really discussing a game in which you played using trackpad? Unless you have charge it makes sense that zealots wont do shit and it's your fault you didn't notice that your vrays were targeting PDD and raven. I doubt that vrays naturally target ravens over marines, it probably had to do with positioning. Why would you even post this?
Why would you even post this? The guy makes a valid point, if you don't micro Voidrays against a 2/1/1 push then you'll lose (even if they're pre-charged, which is when they're supposed to be "lolololol). Proving once again, that Voidrays aren't a "lolololol" unit, just like every other unit in the game.
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But he did suggest to summon a 45 hp PDD for tanking the voidrays...
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On October 14 2010 01:40 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 23:45 sleepingdog wrote:On October 13 2010 22:51 Thrombozyt wrote:
For the scouting:
So you bank your scouting on the metagame not letting him risk one stalker? huh? if he tries to challenge your tower-control you should definitely battle for it; I was speaking about if he moves out with his whole force - and plz don't tell me you can't keep map-control vs protoss before void rays are out? this would be ludicrous, terran early game dominates protoss; of course you can't read anything into one stalker, neither in the initial force up his ramp (I would never send a unit up there, in 99% of the cases he will have zealot/stalker/sentry in 1:2:1 proportion...no matter what...) Battle him how? If I have marauders and shells, then I have control anyhow and he won't move from his ramp, but then voidrays screw me for having too many marauders.
sorry, but void rays are a HUGE investment - there's just no way he can go into a fight with gateway only while he is waiting for void rays; not gonna happen; if you have marine/marauder 80:20 it will suffice;
in fact, I'd be very surprised if he'd even go for it in the first place
the timing immediately before my VR-attack comes is always the most critical because I DO NOT want to battle at this point; I will lose terribly on the field (for my 500/300 for 2 void rays you could've gotten marine/marauder) and furthermore - as already mentioned - I can't attack with rays "out there" either; I NEED the charge-up, if I fail it, I'm doomed; I loved the comparison with PDD, it's perfect; do whatever it takes to prevent him from throwing down his pylon, bringing his army in position and charging up
concerning scouting: I've written this numerous times, but you can also gain valuable intel from what you "not" see - early 2nd gas (comes before stalker btw), 3 gate and few gas-heavy units? no robo? definitely strange; protoss don't proxy their robos for good reasons
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And the Raven. keep in mind that 45 hp is the same hp as a marine..... and is light. and a raven has 140 HP and is light. if your marine isn't dying, that's much more DPS! Remember, he survived with 5 marines. if the raven and PDD hadn't been there, ouch!
And also, zealots are /much better/ against infantry than stalkers - these weren't just zealots they were chargelots. It's amazing that he did so well.
Sure, I was using a touchpad, but if I had been microing my units, I would never have noticed this priority trick. And if you can force the protoss player to have to click on your marines instead of just attack move for the win, then you have a chance to micro them and make his void ray waste shots.
Also I think its really interesting that he actually cast PDD against void rays. IT doesn't stop void ray, sentry or zealot, which is all I had. And he also did not cast a Turret, which is armored. So, I am curious if he knew that PDD had priority already.
Now I have adjusted my build to have sentries out earlier, so I think, 3 VRs and 2 sentry and 11 charge zealots is a pretty scary army to face.
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Unfortunately I don't have that replay apparently but I do have another one. The terran in this game does a great build which I think would work against anything involving void rays. So if you are having trouble with VRs and still want to tech this is the build for you.
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I think maybe EMP should make void rays lose their charge.
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On October 14 2010 19:29 StormsInJuly wrote:
I think maybe EMP should make void rays lose their charge.
good suggestion; also EMP should make colossi have range 6 again and cancel both force fields and guardian shields
then EMP wouldn't only metaphorically but literally counter protoss as a whole
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Pretty sure the 1/1/1 build deals with this handily.
Stalkers? Raven.
Zealots? Hellions with pre-igniter.
Colossi? Vikings.
Void Rays? Marines + Viking. Maybe a Siege Tank to cover Marines from Stalkers or Colossi.
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On October 14 2010 19:29 StormsInJuly wrote:
I think maybe EMP should make void rays lose their charge.
Good suggestion. This would make sense not only in balance but in design as well, as the EMP should disrupt the Void Ray charge. This might have a good chance of being implemented.
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random protoss just destroyed HopeTorture (rainbow) in GOM invitationnal with this strategy (but with zealots/sentries and not stalker, sentries allow forcefielding bunker so no repair)
Rainbow fast expanded and made a reactor so he lost crucial time, but he scouted the stargate.
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On October 14 2010 19:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 19:29 StormsInJuly wrote:
I think maybe EMP should make void rays lose their charge. good suggestion; also EMP should make colossi have range 6 again and cancel both force fields and guardian shields then EMP wouldn't only metaphorically but literally counter protoss as a whole
It should also just instantly kill all protoss robo units. After all, they are robotic, and EMP will fry their delicate circuits
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I have done this build - low diamond, the main reason why I lose using this build is poor unit control - other than that it is a very strong build.
I have tried to use it to transition to get an expansion - but atm it seems too strong to just go for a macro oriented play - adding guardian shield amplifies this build 10 fold as well
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I have not really used VR's since Beta because, well terran can usually easily counter them. I dont think I would ever use this method in a Ladder game because if they cloak banshee its an auto lose, but in a bo3 its def pretty great to do! Especially if you know your opponent goes heavy marauder. This was my first time really trying it but its vs a good terran who had beat me the game before and i wanted a rematch. hes ~1200 diamond.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157567.jpg)
Thanks Link0 for the thread, i have learned from it :D
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Personally, I prefer stargate openings to anything else in pvt. no pro here, but void rays are great against T if you can harass, manage to kill some scv's or a refinery. There is no way, however, that they are overpowered. a small group of stimmed marines muRdEr(!) vr's. Add in a viking or two and its over. But that is generally the idea in this game. Its so great because there is a constant need to adabt. He scouts the vr's, gets a couple of vikings, or more mariens, and your purpose as the p is to make that move, then immediately tech smitch to something else. This keeps both players on their toes.
But, if the T anticipates this switch with his scouting, knowlege - whatever -, then he'll hve the chance to tech switch to counter you. back and forth you'll go.
From a P's perspective, everything in this game is fine for now. I've read some posts about vr's losing charge after switch targets or target dieng.. wtf? seriously? play the game, try new things. Lets figure out the potential of the game, which I think is tremendous because the game is so user friendly compared to bw, before proposing a chg in the game's structure and mechanics.
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Anyways, I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that this build in particular isn't OP since you CAN scout it, and you can beat it if you don't play greedy.
This is an all-in that is borderline cheese. It is heavily reliant you on not scouting it. If you do scout it and counter attack before he has his critical mass army out, he's going to be in huge trouble.
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On October 15 2010 00:36 AlexXx wrote:I have not really used VR's since Beta because, well terran can usually easily counter them. I dont think I would ever use this method in a Ladder game because if they cloak banshee its an auto lose, but in a bo3 its def pretty great to do! Especially if you know your opponent goes heavy marauder. This was my first time really trying it but its vs a good terran who had beat me the game before and i wanted a rematch. hes ~1200 diamond. Thanks Link0 for the thread, i have learned from it :D
it actually beats cloaked banshee builds. It becomes a base race that you easily win
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I'm a lowly mid-level Plat player and while I understand the game decently my mechanics suck. That being said after reading 33 pages I firmly believe that there is only about 1 page of worthwhile posts.
When you have some of the top NA Terran's saying this sucks to play against, well that's when I go testing because they know a lot more then I do about the game.
A buddy of mine and I sat down and tried this out for awhile and I certainly can't add anything new since I am the lowly plat player. Everything I could add has already been stated by Link0, avilo, and iEchoic.
I'm hesitant to call it "broken" but something definitely isn't right. Maybe the 1.1.2 patch will change it since Void Rays just got nerfed pretty hard. o.O
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you know, you're terran.
you can just scan.
and don't say all that nonsense about scans being expensive; most people would GLADLY spend that number of minerals for an instantaneous clear look inside someone's main that lasts like 5 seconds. and almost all pros scan immediately after the first few mules.
If you see it coming, then adapt. It's not as if you have scans only after you've teched to mech.
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They JUST patched void rays:
Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
Damage level 2 DECREASED from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).
Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.
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I like the damage changes (They doubled damage until charge, so void rays won't be totally useless vs. armored before charge). I think the flux vanes nerf is _way_ overkill.
-Cross
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On October 15 2010 03:21 Wings wrote:
you know, you're terran.
you can just scan.
and don't say all that nonsense about scans being expensive; most people would GLADLY spend that number of minerals for an instantaneous clear look inside someone's main that lasts like 5 seconds. and almost all pros scan immediately after the first few mules.
If you see it coming, then adapt. It's not as if you have scans only after you've teched to mech.
you're an idiot. Seriously.
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On October 14 2010 19:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 19:29 StormsInJuly wrote:
I think maybe EMP should make void rays lose their charge. good suggestion; also EMP should make colossi have range 6 again and cancel both force fields and guardian shields then EMP wouldn't only metaphorically but literally counter protoss as a whole
rofl... I can see it now
EMP
-Now unpowers zealot psi-blades
-Mechanical units are in lockdown for 20sec
-Flying units crash to the ground
-Probes no longer function or move but do not die.
-HT can't float and now walk. Speed increased.
-Archons lol archon.
I'm pretty sure that as a Toss if I don't get a robo versus Terran I am open to banshee death. If Terran is "forced" to get a starport in order to make a single viking I can't shed any tears. Marines can easily hold until you pump out of your likely reactor starport compared to FORCING Toss to get a robo every single game.
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Charged void rays just got nerfed so... there you go!
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How does the current nerf affect things now?
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Terran already had a significant early game advantage against Protoss. Removing the Void Ray/Gateway all-in, just makes it even easier for Terran to stick to cookie cutter builds and abuse timings in order to cipple/beat the Protoss player before late game.
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On October 15 2010 04:36 MayorITC wrote:
Terran already had a significant early game advantage against Protoss. Removing the Void Ray/Gateway all-in, just makes it even easier for Terran to stick to cookie cutter builds and abuse timings in order to cipple/beat the Protoss player before late game.
I agree. Plus ghost or marine openings are already really strong against normal gateway builds, so there's no reason not to start with them.
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WEll, now I believe blizz does read this site, just check for the patch from today xD
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On October 15 2010 04:36 MayorITC wrote:
Terran already had a significant early game advantage against Protoss. Removing the Void Ray/Gateway all-in, just makes it even easier for Terran to stick to cookie cutter builds and abuse timings in order to cipple/beat the Protoss player before late game.
Yes, but having rock-paper-scissors build order battles is never a good thing, which is what this build creates.
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When I used to play terran, whenever I played against toss, my first orbital ability i would use is scan. Dont worry about getting the first mule, the scan will help against any early tech. The moment I would see a stargate, I would pump marines from reactor and get my engineering bay + turrets.
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On October 15 2010 05:01 CraftedSC wrote:
When I used to play terran, whenever I played against toss, my first orbital ability i would use is scan. Dont worry about getting the first mule, the scan will help against any early tech. The moment I would see a stargate, I would pump marines from reactor and get my engineering bay + turrets.
you can't scan a smart player's stargate
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On October 15 2010 03:21 Wings wrote:
you know, you're terran.
you can just scan.
and don't say all that nonsense about scans being expensive; most people would GLADLY spend that number of minerals for an instantaneous clear look inside someone's main that lasts like 5 seconds. and almost all pros scan immediately after the first few mules.
If you see it coming, then adapt. It's not as if you have scans only after you've teched to mech.
This is 100% true all good Protoss players clump their tech buildings and production buildings in the middle of their base so you are guaranteed to scan everything you need to see.
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Void rays buffed in most situations. Uncharged damage to armored went from 5 -> 10. Uncharged damage to light from 5 -> 6. +100% damage isn't a nerf.
They will now be used as support for a normal army instead of only for cheesy all-ins.
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On October 15 2010 06:30 link0 wrote:
Void rays buffed in most situations. Uncharged damage to armored went from 5 -> 10. Uncharged damage to light from 5 -> 6. +100% damage isn't a nerf.
They will now be used as support for a normal army instead of only for cheesy all-ins.
They do as much damage as a zealot when fully charged vs non marauder units. For 250/150.
edit: I really think void rays need their range back if they are niching them this much. Whats with 7 range on banshees being okay, anyway?
edit: sorry, i'm just a bit peeved. i finally found a build that puts the game into protoss' hands (as opposed to terran picking a build that protoss inevitably has to prepare for) and now its back to finding a way to defend the polt attack, which terran can choose blindly and virtually guarantee himself success without having to do anything but blindly macro until ~10 minutes.
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On October 15 2010 06:30 link0 wrote:
Void rays buffed in most situations. Uncharged damage to armored went from 5 -> 10. Uncharged damage to light from 5 -> 6. +100% damage isn't a nerf.
They will now be used as support for a normal army instead of only for cheesy all-ins.
Exactly. Just what Protoss needed. A support unit that does 6/10 damage and costs 250 minerals and 150 gas. Man, I hope you move to Korea so that the Protoss players there can learn from you.
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On October 13 2010 10:30 Fizbin wrote:
random player here:
dont know how may wins ive gotten by proxy void ray vs terran or zerg because i know how hard it is to stop if scouted 30 seconds too late. i think TOO MANY.... it feels so cheese i stopped doing it.
i hate voidrays in ffa's!! i dont know how many times i've lost a 4 ffa after killing 2 ppl but the 3rd just masses void rays and wins even though im so far ahead economically. but by the time i get the correct counter units they are fully charged and wrecking my base. its like if i see a toss in a ffa i have to automatically make a shit load of marines stalkers or corrupters. taking away from fun unit composition. getting beat by a FE cannon void ray cheese is too common. any idiot can do it thats why i see it so much. almost as newb as 4 gate..
i know some of u will say well u should have scouted. bc;s or mass banshee or mass muta is just as bad.... ect.. but they are not nearly the same... mass void rays are the gayest shit in the game after they have been charged. sure its easy to stop if it's 1v1 and u build the counter unit early enough because your scouting him all game... but i truely think the mass voidray is a mass newb cheese unit.
also a few times when i've played terran 1v1 and i went a marine heavy build but was just enough out of position for them to get charged i've lost... i went back looked at the replay.. according to my build i should have crushed him.. but since he got charged and i didnt have vicking i got owned. it also got to the point where i build extra queens just to be safe. gimmick
they should do more initial damage and less charged damage.
mark my words the unit will be changed sooner or later u watch and see
forgive my spelling
Void Ray
-Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
-Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).
LOL im awesome
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On October 15 2010 06:52 Fizbin wrote:
now every build that builds anything hard counters voidray!
in other words, protoss sets himself behind by considering stargate.
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void rays are underpowered atm , they are much weaker then they once were I hope they get turned back to their older state since it was hard to charge a bunch of them up let's say 12 void rays will take some time to charge up , if they are charging on ur base , and even then u could deal with it . Really poor choice now protoss air is a complete joke , vikings and mutalisk are much better and much more viable atm then any protoss air unit .....
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the void rays was a broken unit before, not because it was pwoerfull, but because the entire mechanic behind it forced it in to the cheese department of buildorders, very little could be done with them in real battles.
but changed it to what it is now and still thinking that 250/150 is a fair price for it, is insane.
the entire chargeup mechanic is broken and has to change, 'toss air right now is a joke.
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they are still better than scouts in bw
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i wanted the VR to explode and damage nearby units when fully charged... that would be much ,more fun
but still
i like the VR nerv: makes 3v3 and 4v4 more playable (even though now there are more carriers
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155643.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157511.jpg)
