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Quasi.In.Rem
53 Posts
strategy selection is generally an extremely risk averse process, you generally need a strategy to have incredibly high rewards if it grants even a modest risk compared to a more stable strategy. if VRs felt "fair," they would be completely unused. its the same argument that Protoss players say about Banshees. tweeks are, of course, always welcome, but you have to understand that it's part of the design for them to feel stronger than "fair," | ||
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Jadiel.
United Kingdom2 Posts
In spite of almost 30 pages of "discussion", I can only find 8 (I might have missed one) replays showing actual evidence regarding the alleged problem. (I took the liberty of quoting them below for the convenience of anyone who can't be bothered to trawl back through the thread to find them.) In those 8 replays we find: - a few examples of protoss armies including void rays annihilating terran armies. In every case where this occured, the protoss army outnumbered the terran army by more than 50% (in resource terms), and in some by almost 2:1. - a few examples of terran armies successfully defending against protoss armies containing charged void rays. In every case where this occured, the protoss army outnumbered the terran army. It seems to me that there is simply not enough evidence to justify either the view that VRs are clearly overpowered, or that they are not. This entire thread is largely speculation. Until we see several replays which show a (well played) terran getting consistently destroyed by charged void rays whilst battling with a "standard" equally matched army, I don't understand how people can state so adamantly that there is a problem. So far there has not been anything close to a single example of this. Perhaps you are all streaks ahead of me, and have extensive experience of far higher level play than I do, and such evidence is unnecessary, but I can't help thinking that with a few more well chosen replays to back up the points being made (on both sides), the discussion might be a little more fruitful... Here are the replays which have been posted so far in this thread, as promised. In some cases I've edited the posts to save space. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On October 09 2010 16:47 klauz619 wrote: Void rays are pretty dangerous for bio heavy terran who focuses on marauders, which seems to be what 95% of terran do. Haven't had problems with them against marine/banshee though, which is sweet. I'd prefer if void rays charged up twice as fast, but lost their charges whenever they swap targets, they're pretty idiotically designed, they aren't anti-armor or anything, they just do disproportionate damage as long as you can pre-charge off one of the thousands of available methods. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/88468-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns#rd:undefined;markup + Show Spoiler + On October 10 2010 07:12 guyGOTgirth wrote: This was fitting. First ladder game after being in this post: My opponent is 1400, I'm 1600+ ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156144.jpg) I went for a 1-1-2 variation without the hellion harass and walled in with depot/depot bunker instead of a rax. I use my first 3 OCC energy on mules and scout with a factory -- by the time I see the rays they are at my base. Also due to positioning my initial scouting SCV is killed by stalkers at ramp. To be fair, I am caught out of position initially but in terms of cost / units lost we are even. I also have 2 banshees that are 1/2 way through production that I do not cancel, though I don't believe that would have made a difference. We have the same amount of money "spent" as well as the same "income." IE if I threw in an arbitrary scan on his main (his stargate was built off to the side and probably would have missed it) I would have been ~ - 300 spending in the hole. + Show Spoiler + On October 10 2010 20:16 sleepingdog wrote: sure I have; I even provided a replay on the possible void ray abuse on shakuras with charge-up on the rocks just recently here if you are interested (no GG, just for demonstration): ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155643.jpg) - but as I said: a) your viking should come faster; this is a timing-problem, if he is already charging up outside your base when your viking arrives, then something went wrong; baracks --> factory --> starport --> viking simply is faster than gateway --> core --> stargate ---> void rays, unless he proxies the void rays right outside your base and comes with his first ray immediately b) if you ralley your viking outside your base you should be able to intercept; then it's as you yourself have said earlier: it's not hard to beat the stalker/void-ray-combo when they are NOT charged up already + Show Spoiler + On October 11 2010 06:22 Jaeger wrote: jimpo vs adel Replay for the game I talked about earlier. Reading this thread makes it seem like that game should be impossible, afterall he didn't have vikings out, he didn't scout the stargate, he only had one bunker at the front. + Show Spoiler + On October 12 2010 01:03 NuKedUFirst wrote: On ladder a friend of mine just did this strategy to me on delta quadrant, attacked with 2 charged VRs and stalkers and I was able to hold it with Brat_OK's Marine Ghost build and ended up winning after the push, voidrays are pretty fragile in my opinion, once emp'd they die hella fast. Here is the rep for your pleasure only. www.replayladder.com/site/replay/1469 We are both 1400~ Diamond range I think late game voidrays massed is very strong but I don't find this build "imbalanced" it really depends on what terran does. Obviously if you do a fast expand or something risky then you will get rolled by VR Stalker. Other then that it seems fine. + Show Spoiler + On October 12 2010 04:35 ensis wrote: seemed pretty easy http://sc2.replays.net/replay/Sc2Replay.aspx?ReplayID=2196 dunno if executed properly though | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10637 Posts
People, be it Terran or Zerg, hate to play against Voidrays and they do for good reason. It's not that they are overpowered, it's just that it's about 0 fun to have them come into your base melting everything in seconds. As Zerg its boring in both ways... Most of the games involving "early" Voirays you either die on the spot, or you won the game on the spot... It's just not fun to play against them, no matter the outcome. It just feels cheap to lose against them (Banshees are not even nearly as bad, at least they dont feel like that to me). | ||
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Glimli
United States16 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10637 Posts
Voidrays aren't imbalanced and thats exactly as far as any logical arguments would go :p. Raw DPS comparisons are also not really applicable... A Banshee does Volleys, a Voidray not (not really). A charged Voidray kills most *light* stuff just as fast as a Banshee (because light units tend to have low HP but enough for the Banshee to need 3+ Volleys which means that it is (massively) overkilling with the killing volley). So, there is no real diffrence here when it comes to "real" DPS against SCV's/Drones/Probes/Marines but as soon as you factor in anti-armored dmg the Voidray is way superior. Well.. The biggest fact is anyway that on most maps there are Rocks in very convenient spots to charge up next to your enemies base... Which means that in most cases the Voidrays will enter a fight precharged, which means their weakness (being horrible when not charged) is no more weakness. But in the end it's just 1 thing that makes Voidrays hated: It's not fun when they come to your base an rape buildings in a matter of seconds. Btw: I don't have problems dealing with Voidrays, i tend to win most of my games when the Protoss goes Voidrays (i did not check this, thats just how i feel)... But still, it's a retarded mechanic. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
Marine/Ghost = potential counter in your first post in that thread. | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
There is one build that terran can do to survive this. If he doesn't 3 rax (marine heavy, ghost optional), he dies. It really is as simple as using a scouting probe to check to see if he is. Protoss opens with a 2gateish play (double chrono stalker is my favorite), scouts the entrance for a factory, and if he sees one he makes a stargate, and the game is done. It really has little to do with the unit itself, but the fact that the terran player often has to be able to see into the future to know his opponent is going void rays from the first minute of the game. It's not like you can scan, see a stargate building a void ray, and then make the 10+ marines (and you also had to research stim somewhere along here) out of 1 rax. Don't even mention the speed upgrade. If the protoss can squeeze that upgrade in, even units that are basically hard counters to the void, like the hydralisk start to get owned. They just dance around, abusing cliffs, charge on a building before your units can get there, and proceed to kill your "counter" army with just shield damage and then start your base. So what's the problem? I mean, a unit doing some good damage isn't the issue. The problem is twofold and unique to the voideray: 1. If you don't scout it, you're utterly dead. Nothing in the game has this property besides cheese rushes and dt/banshee rushes (however, see #2 for the difference). This is why people refer to it as "void ray cheese". Even fast banshee will run out of cloak eventually and then you can pop up some cannons. 2. Even if do you scout it, you still might lose. You might scout the stargate even being put down, and you still might lose, because the required response to a void ray isn't as simple as a single tech structure. It's like "oh, cool voids, I need to go back in the game 5 minutes and unbuild these tanks and add 2 more rax with reactors". Fuck, I've nearly died against terrible opponents that I KNEW were going mass voids and immediately planted a hydra den... As a general rule, if you can see exactly what your opponent is building, and he can't see what you're making, you should crush him (micro excluded). | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
ps. 2rax pressure kills this build instantly, maybe you should stop tech whoring and realise not even Terran has an invulnerable wall. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On October 13 2010 01:00 ToxNub wrote: I don't understand how people are still denying that Voids aren't a problem. There is one build that terran can do to survive this. If he doesn't 3 rax (marine heavy, ghost optional), he dies. It really is as simple as using a scouting probe to check to see if he is. . I hold this with a fast expand (CC in my main untill it's safe) and then mech + rines. By the time the push comes I have 3 bunkers, a viking and 1 tank sieged. | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
On October 13 2010 01:12 Dente wrote: I hold this with a fast expand (CC in my main untill it's safe) and then mech + rines. By the time the push comes I have 3 bunkers, a viking and 1 tank sieged. how can 3 bunkers possibly cover your entire 2 bases? On October 13 2010 01:09 Yaotzin wrote: If this is so unstoppable pls explain why P's keep dying to T's, and why I see this build once in a blue moon amongst pros. Thx. ps. 2rax pressure kills this build instantly, maybe you should stop tech whoring and realise not even Terran has an invulnerable wall. Rofl... 2 rax pressure doesn't kill anything, not even 1 gate FE. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 13 2010 01:22 ToxNub wrote: Rofl... 2 rax pressure doesn't kill anything, not even 1 gate FE. Sorry, bad wording. 2 rax pressure forces this build to be abandoned/severely delayed. Just look at the replays, they have no units at all. 1gate FE survives due to constantly chronoing the gate, this build saves chrono for the voids. You also force gas expenditure which kinda screws void production. Best case for P in the situation is he has to use the voids to defend, and you thus know what he is doing, which pretty much kills the viability of this. Could you please address why pros hardly ever use this unstoppable build? | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 13 2010 01:27 ToxNub wrote: I beg to differ. Forcefield insta-rapes any attempt to pressure a toss ramp in early game. No it doesn't they have no units. Run an SCV up the ramp and look at their mighty 1sentry1zealot army, then go rape him. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
On October 13 2010 01:22 ToxNub wrote: how can 3 bunkers possibly cover your entire 2 bases? Learn to read - seriously, here in DK it's a skill acquired at age 6-7, everyone posting here should be a good bit above that age... He said he keeps his second orbital in his first base until it is safe... And how is the VR any different than the Banshee forcing protoss to go robo tech? That is probably the biggest beef most people have with this thread (besides the complete lack of any evidence) - the double standards. Banshees are fine and so are VRs. EDIT: When I say fine I don't mean 100% fine, but that nothing has proven them overpowered. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
Banshees are recoverable. 1 banshee doesn't kill your whole base. You could be caught with 0 detection and no forge and still survive because it takes banshees nearly twice as long to kill your buildings. This does not happen with void rays. If you're going to give me lectures on learning to read you might want to try it yourself. I've already explicitly covered the difference in my first post. Yaotzin: I'm not a pro, so I can't comment. There was a day9 daily on whiteras PvT voidray openings though, though he used them as an opener for chargelots. | ||
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JTPROG
United States254 Posts
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slam
United States923 Posts
Yes, if poorly responded, Voidrays can be very unforgiving. But they are not hard to counter and I do not believe that they are over powered. EDIT: this is not so much directed to the OP. More so to all the QQ going on as a response. | ||
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