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On October 12 2010 06:20 iEchoic wrote:
The strategy is really strong against 1/1/1 type builds and it's worth talking about.
As it is the there is no direction to the discussion, the OP doesn't mention his build but rather makes a blanket statement that they are difficult to deal with and proposes patches.
It has been proven in this thread that there are a variety of ways to deal with the 3gate VR build.
So now that we know the problem is solvable if the focus is narrowed such as how do you adjust a 1/1/1 build to account for the possibility of 3gate VR then there might be some progress made here.
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On October 12 2010 06:37 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg. Yes, you are correct. Congratulations. Did you also know that while 1 Collosus > 1 Marine, there's a catch - the marine can shoot up! It has ATA capabilities. So they're basically the same, using your logic. Yeah, that makes sense. And 1 Viking will beat 3 VRs as long as they don't have the acceleration upgrade. If they do, then that Viking better be piloted by Maverick, or he is screwed.
wtf are u smoking, get lost to bnet forums.
User was banned for this post.
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On October 12 2010 06:38 Jaeger wrote:
So now that we know the problem is solvable if the focus is narrowed such as how do you adjust a 1/1/1 build to account for the possibility of 3gate VR then there might be some progress made here.
And the answer to this (not saying it is), could well be "1/1/1 is simply too greedy, do 2/1/1". That would not mean VRs are broken :0 Standards are changing all the time in this game, a new strategy forcing a new standard is normal.
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can we read please?...fully charged -- and people are asking why i put stuff in caps. yes 1 viking will beat 3 normal void rays but 1 viking will NOT beat 3 charged void rays because once the viking stops to attack which takes about 1 second, the void ray will catch up in distance and lock onto the viking and the viking will be done in 2-3 seconds tops with 3.
and for u being a smartass about the colossus vs the marine -- they can actually attack each other while the banshee can't attack the void ray. i'm not just comparing DPS in general, i'm comparing the dps vs every single unit that can attack it. how r u gonna use a banshee to counter a void ray? good job, that makes sense.
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It seems to me that a Stalker / Void Ray army comp would require a lot of gas. I would think a heavy marine army would shut this down hard.
I know scan has been mentioned, and it sounds like you shouldn't be scanning for the Starport. What you should be scouting for is his army comp. Either poke in with a marine to try and figure out his army comp, or if you can't get a visual that way, scan inside his base.
Stimmed marines destroy voids pretty well, even when charged, so as long as you aren't building like 60% marauders, you should be able to shut them down pretty easy. +1 infantry attack would probably be great in a marine heavy army vs this comp as well.
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On October 12 2010 06:20 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:11 Crosswind wrote:
LinkO/iEchoic - I guess there's just one other comment to consider.
We've seen the other questionably balanced strategies be reflected in tournament positions. The main tournaments (GSL, TL Invite, KotB, IEM) and streams (Gisado's KotH) have all been dominated by Terran and Zerg. If you are correct, and this strategy is indeed overpowered, then we should see it reflected in the metagame, right? We should either see a lot of terrans losing to it at tournaments, or terrans having to gimp themselves to deal with this attack, and thus not doing as well.
Obviously, this hasn't happened yet. It seems like, if things are as you say, within a month or two we should see this becoming a dominant strategy. So why don't we hang out a little bit and see what happens? Not that I begrudge you coming to the forums and declaring something that beat you to be a design flaw - that is the god-given right of all strategy forumers. But I think that a little perspective is in order. This strategy has yet to win a major tournament, or even factor in in one; let alone become dominant. It's a trick that you don't know how to deal with yet. That's all we can say for certain.
-Cross I didn't say it was broken, so I don't know why you're addressing that to me. I am just discussing it in here because 99% of the people who have posted so far haven't used/played against or understand the strategy in any way. When people post things like "tech to battlecruisers" or "1rax marauder beats this" it needs to be clarified. The strategy is really strong against 1/1/1 type builds and it's worth talking about. I'm not ready to say it's a balance issue, but void rays are flawed just in the way that they're stupid units that are only useful for allins and insta-wins or completely failures.
VRs are used for cheese like you say, but they also fill the very important role of being lategame transition units - like the carrier was in BW. Few matches gets to the state where it makes sense to transition into them (especially vs. terrans as they seldomly mech against protoss - which is hardly surprising seeing how bad mech fares). The VR isn't flawed imo, at least not due to the reasons you suggest as they do fulfill another role than cheese units.
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The strength of the void ray is incredible single target damage. It is a glass cannon so to speak. Stalkers on the other hand are very low damage units. With proper micro management stimmed marines marauders and ghosts fair very well against this kind of opener. You underestimate a Terran on equal bases in that A. The Terran player receives more income due to MULES, and B. Barracks units are incredibly effective against the Protoss' unit makeup in this specific case. Note that void rays have a relatively short attack range and are very slow making them manageable. As with HT or Collosus, if you simply attack move into the Protoss forces of course they will kill you. You must prioritize targets.
Let's talk about marines. Marines are an extremely cost effective unit that become less cost effective as the Protoss techs to either collosus or high templar. However when the protoss opts for void rays marines become unstoppable killing machines provided stim pack is researched. Be careful not to build too few marines and too many marauders when facing a Protoss player until you are sure of his tech route.
Now let's talk about the sensor tower. Concerned that potential void rays can be charging up outside your base? Build a sensor tower. Engage before charge. Really, there is no reason not to build a sensor tower no matter what the situation.
You seem to be frustrated in that you can't effectively scout the stargate. In base stargates are very easy to scout with a scan. Proxy stargates are more difficult however they bare significantly higher risk and yield greater reward. Incorporating map specific scv scouting patterns into your regular build order is a very easy and highly recommended.
You also complain about having to wall in. Solution: don't. 10 pylon 10 gate early zealot will be a blind attack that few people do. If however they do it, it is manageable with a standard 12 barracks and proper marine and scv micromanagement. A simple bunker that is basically free at the top of your ramp or by your command center works wonders against everything. Walling is hardly a necessity for Terran in SC2 unlike in SCBW.
You note on how every unit should have a "proper counter' or in other terms hard counter. Incorporating the void ray into the rock paper scissors marauder match of Starcraft 2 is hardly the answer.
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On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg.
You miss the point on both comments.
The fact that there is a lack of micro skill does not counter the fact that 1 microed viking is a hard counter to fully charged VR.
The fact that Banshees only shoot ground does not counter the fact that they have more dps and that countering them will set back toss economically and requires scouting, which is the argument that the terran apologists are making against charged voidrays as a starting strategy.
The argument that VR self charging is broken stems from the fact that countering them requires investment. The fact that investment is bad stems from the fact that this sets terran back economically.
This leads to QQ. The hilarity here to every T v X match-up is that the exact same consideration must be taken vs. T every game. The fact that this is being presented as an issue to nerf the VF, because of some scouting issue vs. proxy stargate with precharging and not being able to get into base and not wanting to spend scans and not scouting and all these fantastic qualifications that make the precharged VR impossible to counter practically and THEN complaining about it being a game structure issue is absurd....especially when every T v X is making those considerations against terran EVERY GAME.
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On October 12 2010 06:26 Barca wrote:
Who waits until they have a starport to scout his expo? At least he has to build his Nexus at the site.
you can't scout his nat because you don't have map control! Your scouts will get picked off when they pass by a watchtower.
And you basically countered your own argument. You said stimmed Marine/Marauder give you map control, but stimmed Marines give the Protoss player map control. What?
that's marauders for ya. Stalkers have a much harder time kiting them.
And 1/1/1 you can definitely gain map control, either with banshees or helion drop in mineral lines. Early aggression is not out of the question, here.
that's called harass, and it doesn't give you map control. It's what you have to do when you don't have map control.
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On October 12 2010 06:47 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:26 Barca wrote:
Who waits until they have a starport to scout his expo? At least he has to build his Nexus at the site. you can't scout his nat because you don't have map control! Your scouts will get picked off when they pass by a watchtower. Show nested quote +And you basically countered your own argument. You said stimmed Marine/Marauder give you map control, but stimmed Marines give the Protoss player map control. What? that's marauders for ya. Stalkers have a much harder time kiting them. Show nested quote +And 1/1/1 you can definitely gain map control, either with banshees or helion drop in mineral lines. Early aggression is not out of the question, here. that's called harass, and it doesn't give you map control. It's what you have to do when you don't have map control.
Okay, how about this.
Get MM for scouting and map control, but skim on the Marauders for either more Marines or tech to Starport where you get an early Viking to scout.
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On October 12 2010 06:46 AcuWill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg. You miss the point on both comments. The fact that there is a lack of micro skill does not counter the fact that 1 microed viking is a hard counter to fully charged VR. The fact that Banshees only shoot ground does not counter the fact that they have more dps and that countering them will set back toss economically and requires scouting, which is the argument that the terran apologists are making against charged voidrays as a starting strategy. The argument that VR self charging is broken stems from the fact that countering them requires investment. The fact that investment is bad stems from the fact that this sets terran back economically. This leads to QQ. The hilarity here to every T v X match-up is that the exact same consideration must be taken vs. T every game. The fact that this is being presented as an issue to nerf the VF, because of some scouting issue vs. proxy stargate with precharging and not being able to get into base and not wanting to spend scans and not scouting and all these fantastic qualifications that make the precharged VR impossible to counter practically and THEN complaining about it being a game structure issue is absurd....especially when every T v X is making those considerations against terran EVERY GAME.
and yet after all this wall of text, ur saying i'm qqing? u said specifically "1 viking will beat 3 fully charged vrays" and i said "no ur an idiot u can't do that" (i didn't really say that, but that's what i meant if u think 1 viking can beat 3 fully charged void rays).
ur missing the point in my post about his response to the dps on a banshee. what good is dps if he can't hit the void ray? u can make 50 banshees and i'll have 3 void rays who's gonna win that battle? that's the point i'm getting at. so UR MISSING THE POINT.
if ur so good why don't u beat the build out and tell us all how it's done -- replay please. oh yeah and if u just assume he's going voidray and go early viking and fail -- i want that replay too when the toss player just expands and takes over the map.
ur lack of understanding the whole situation is a complete joke because u don't get the entire concept of what all the top players are trying to get at here about the build in the first place.
edit:
by the way, i'm 99% sure that on equal micro levels, the protoss with 3 fully charged void rays will definitely be able to lock onto ur 1 viking and take it out in less than 2-3 seconds.
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On October 12 2010 07:59 ahcho00 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:46 AcuWill wrote:On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote:
to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking.
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg. You miss the point on both comments. The fact that there is a lack of micro skill does not counter the fact that 1 microed viking is a hard counter to fully charged VR. The fact that Banshees only shoot ground does not counter the fact that they have more dps and that countering them will set back toss economically and requires scouting, which is the argument that the terran apologists are making against charged voidrays as a starting strategy. The argument that VR self charging is broken stems from the fact that countering them requires investment. The fact that investment is bad stems from the fact that this sets terran back economically. This leads to QQ. The hilarity here to every T v X match-up is that the exact same consideration must be taken vs. T every game. The fact that this is being presented as an issue to nerf the VF, because of some scouting issue vs. proxy stargate with precharging and not being able to get into base and not wanting to spend scans and not scouting and all these fantastic qualifications that make the precharged VR impossible to counter practically and THEN complaining about it being a game structure issue is absurd....especially when every T v X is making those considerations against terran EVERY GAME. and yet after all this wall of text, ur saying i'm qqing? u said specifically "1 viking will beat 3 fully charged vrays" and i said "no ur an idiot u can't do that" (i didn't really say that, but that's what i meant if u think 1 viking can beat 3 fully charged void rays). ur missing the point in my post about his response to the dps on a banshee. what good is dps if he can't hit the void ray? u can make 50 banshees and i'll have 3 void rays who's gonna win that battle? that's the point i'm getting at. so UR MISSING THE POINT. if ur so good why don't u beat the build out and tell us all how it's done -- replay please. oh yeah and if u just assume he's going voidray and go early viking and fail -- i want that replay too when the toss player just expands and takes over the map. ur lack of understanding the whole situation is a complete joke because u don't get the entire concept of what all the top players are trying to get at here about the build in the first place.
Way to not respond to my points. But doesn't matter that the Banshees can't hit VR. The point is the discussion of dps vs. cost and what the economic/play impact is to counter it. So yeah, your ad--hominem filled argument is misdirected. And if you read, with comprehension, you will see that nowhere did I say you QQ.
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Guys your petty bickering about it is incredibly frustrating. Lets get back on task. Do void rays need to be nerfed? No. No they don't. They cost a lot, take a long time to get out, and are easy enough to scout.
Someone already pointed out like 5 pages ago the OP scouted 3 gates with no additional tech and didn't even check to see if the opponent was proxying something.
The OP lost to lack of using the knowledge he had from scouting. Nothing more, nothing less. It isn't op that you have to change your strategy to respond to what someone else is building. Every other race does it. Had the OP thought to himself "Gee, there doesn't appear to be tech in his base. Maybe he is doing a proxy!", he would have saw the proxy pylon, saw the stalkers, knew something was up, and reacted.
There are a million ways he could have reacted. I for one know that stim marines wreck void rays, charged or uncharged, and that in larger numbers, stimmed marines can put a hurting on stalkers as well. Had the OP done either of those two things, the opponent would have been screwed because his only tech, a starport, would be relatively useless, and the op would have like an 45+ marine advantage to a-move into the toss base and win.
I don't know why it's even a surprise to people that the strategy worked against him if he didn't even know it was going to happen. That's like a zerg hiding a baneling nest and the terran going super marine heavy and calling banelings op. It's just dumb. He didn't see the tech, he didn't think that the guy proxy'd, and his attitude about the state of terran is making him think if he can't beat this strategy with the build order he uses for everything else, clearly protoss needs nerfs.
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didn't u say that self charging being broken = qq?
i do think self charge is broken so ur saying i'm qqing? unless i completely missed the meaning of what u said.
how does it not matter that the banshees can't hit the vr? i have a completely useful unit that doesn't set me back at all while u've made a unit that's completely useless against mine. which means economically u've dumped 750/500 into a complete waste of units and i've put 750/450 into completely decimating ur army. how is my argument not sound on saying that the banshees are useless. i mean i must be missing something here from u already saying that a charged void ray is like a cloaked banshee. dps is useless if u can't hit anything --therefore ur utility = 0, while i've made an investment of 750/450 with full utility. c'mon man, it's a simple concept --just because u've dumped money into a unit doesn't mean it's efficient.
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well i'm trying to tell him that 1 viking isn't gonna beat 3 charged rays, and he's telling me otherwise - so talk to him lol.
ur arguement is sound jeff, but keep in mind that if u pump marines like that he's probably pumping zealots with his other 3 gates, so u can concentrate on the voidrays attacking one side of ur base, or concentrate on the zealots/stalkers or just stalkers that are either breaking down ur door/broken down ur door or already in ur base wrecking ur economy.
it's not just the voidrays attacking to counter the single unit entity, but it's the combination of the voidrays being charged/stalkers and/or zealots coming at u.
edit: but keep in mind, he can safely transition out of this tech by simply not building it and expanding once he sees ur preparing for the void rays and he'll probably just go colossus. we're not discussing how to stop the proxy void ray, because that's been discussed since beta. we're talking about how to stop a safe transition in order to counter this and not kill ur own economy if u made the wrong choice.
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On October 12 2010 06:51 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 06:47 Red Alert wrote:On October 12 2010 06:26 Barca wrote:
Who waits until they have a starport to scout his expo? At least he has to build his Nexus at the site. you can't scout his nat because you don't have map control! Your scouts will get picked off when they pass by a watchtower. And you basically countered your own argument. You said stimmed Marine/Marauder give you map control, but stimmed Marines give the Protoss player map control. What? that's marauders for ya. Stalkers have a much harder time kiting them. And 1/1/1 you can definitely gain map control, either with banshees or helion drop in mineral lines. Early aggression is not out of the question, here. that's called harass, and it doesn't give you map control. It's what you have to do when you don't have map control. Okay, how about this. Get MM for scouting and map control, but skim on the Marauders for either more Marines or tech to Starport where you get an early Viking to scout.
the more marines you have the weaker your army is going to be, that's just how it works. Even though marauders cost twice as much as a marine, they take about the same amount of time to build, so the more marauders you cut from your army, the lower it will be in food count. Mass marines are only really effective vs toss if you don't have to invest gas in anything. Once you have to get the tech lab, stim, conc shells, your army size gets pretty small.
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On October 12 2010 04:59 link0 wrote:
The "Brat_OK build" which is mass marines/ghosts is completely obsolete. Absolutely zero top terran players use that build, including even BratOK himself =(.
The build is easily hard-countered by the #1 most popular Toss build (gate robo-obs gate followed up by one-base zealot + non-range-upgraded colossus).
Haha, oh, I just noticed in the match history that Fenix (2200+ diamond, #1 Terran on NA) just lost to the 3gate+VR build from a much lower level Toss player. Lolz. Guess he "should have just SCANNED"! What a noob you are, Fenix.
I don't care that you are better then me, it's obvious that you are just horribly biased. There are huge holes in this strategy.
1) It is open to any type of Maurader cheese.
2) It is open to any type of aggressive double/3 rax play.
3) A scan can easily tell you alot of things, for one he is saving Chronosboosts for something, and he's not using it on Probes (which you can tell by Probe count from a scan that he's all-inning). If he's not 4 warpgating early, that means he's 99.9% of the time going to VR all in, especially if you see no early Robo. If you scanned you would have seen all of this, and could have at least adapted abit earlier.
I have yet to see top Korean T players lose to any kind of VR build if they do their normal aggressive style of play as T, because you simply force the P to deviate from his original plan or die. It's only when the Korean T player doesn't play aggressive, doesn't scout, and allows the P to take the initiative do they lose to VRs. And please, don't say bio early aggression isn't common in TvP Korean style of play, because it is. It's one of the big reasons why most P's lost to T at GSL 1.
Virtually any 2/1/1 or 3/1/1 build would smash this let alone any type of 3 rax all in, or Bratok, or Bratok variations of it. That's 4 different strategies that utterly crush this strat, two which are off a 1-1-1, you just have to delay your 1-1-1 tech a little in anticipation of any VR cheese. Still, you force the P player to either deviate and delay his VRs by making Zealot/Sentry to delay you, or he will be crippled by any type of early Maurader aggression as you are not going to beat Mauraders with just pure Stalkers. So you can't 1-1-1 straight tech anymore because a P player figured out that if he cuts probes, saves chronos, and all in fast tech, he can beat your tech. Well boo hoo; the strat was designed to beat greedy 1-1-1 players.
Stop playing so greedy, do some early aggression, and actually scout for once and maybe you wouldn't lose to such dumb strategies.
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Void Rays cost 250/150, Marines 50. If you count gas = minerals, you can have 8 Marines per Void Ray. A pre-charged Void Ray does 16.67 dps against non armored targets (like the Marine). 8 stimed Marines do 83.64 dps; that is, five times as much. It takes 3 seconds for a charged Void Ray to kill a marine (requires 5 hits dealing 10 damage at a .6s interval). It takes 2.98 seconds for the 8 marines to kill a Void Ray. Although this is faster, due to range the marine will still probably die. So, an equal cost of Marines and Void Rays fight, the result from dps is exactly one Marine dies killing the one Void Ray.
Obviously this doesn't account for all factors, that's what makes Starcraft a strategy game. However, looking at the numbers, Void Rays are not an inherently imbalanced unit. Looking at tournament data, most pros agree in that they don't actually make Void Rays most of the time.
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What if they kept their charging ability, but were simply made unable to attack air targets? This way they maintain their function as "surgical attack units," i.e. being able to melt your expos like swiss cheese (or even your main if you're way out of position), and forces Toss players to support the voids with Phoenixes. Maybe even give them a slight movement speed buff so they can run if needed.
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am a noob but will post annyway...
Void rays are annoying but i dont see them as broken
the build wich counters it is imo not a bad build at all against all other protoss openings,wich is one of the main arguments of the op
the 3 rax build or something similar and then push is verry strong against most protoss openings
the thing wich is broken in the protoss design is the cannon
its suposed to be a defensive structure but the only good use of the cannon is offensive and i dont think it was meant to be that way
its verry powerfull even if the opponent reacts correctly and it barely sets you behind economically
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EPT
