EPTon the other hand, if your argument is that it is unrealistic to expect you to make vikings when stargate is a possibility OR to go 3 rax and hold it off with marines, i guess i just don't agree. i find it good for general game balance that there are timing pushes that terran has to worry about coming from protoss, because from my experience its the other way around for most of the game.
Void Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 25
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rycho
United States360 Posts
on the other hand, if your argument is that it is unrealistic to expect you to make vikings when stargate is a possibility OR to go 3 rax and hold it off with marines, i guess i just don't agree. i find it good for general game balance that there are timing pushes that terran has to worry about coming from protoss, because from my experience its the other way around for most of the game. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote: I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. The exact same could be said about the bajillion different timing attacks you can throw at Protoss that go Robo. Pure unadulterated dumb luck seems to be a defining factor in most TvP games before they've both pulled off an expansion. | ||
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Red Alert
United States119 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:03 Barca wrote: See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game... Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either. the whole point is if he isn't going VRs, dude. | ||
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ahcho00
United States220 Posts
rycho - that's the problem we're getting at here and that's why the Op put it up for discussion. u don't want to blindly make vikings because it'll hurt ur economy severely early game and if u don't guess right, ur toast. it's the build that gives the protoss the advantage of either a - doing the build, and not losing anything, or b - doing the build and not losing anything. | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
We've seen the other questionably balanced strategies be reflected in tournament positions. The main tournaments (GSL, TL Invite, KotB, IEM) and streams (Gisado's KotH) have all been dominated by Terran and Zerg. If you are correct, and this strategy is indeed overpowered, then we should see it reflected in the metagame, right? We should either see a lot of terrans losing to it at tournaments, or terrans having to gimp themselves to deal with this attack, and thus not doing as well. Obviously, this hasn't happened yet. It seems like, if things are as you say, within a month or two we should see this becoming a dominant strategy. So why don't we hang out a little bit and see what happens? Not that I begrudge you coming to the forums and declaring something that beat you to be a design flaw - that is the god-given right of all strategy forumers. But I think that a little perspective is in order. This strategy has yet to win a major tournament, or even factor in in one; let alone become dominant. It's a trick that you don't know how to deal with yet. That's all we can say for certain. -Cross | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
everybody who doesn't just say "omfg void rays are teh uber-power" is getting flamed by supposedly "good" terrans who hand out crap just because they are sitting on more ladder-points every player adapts/prepares always against strats that "may" beat him at a certain point in time: zerg tends to throw up a shitton of spine crawlers when they wanna go fast muta vs protoss because protoss "may" go 4 warpgate allin; will this make their fast muta more effective? lol definitely not; ist it a design flaw that protoss can go 4 warpgate all in that prevents many kinds of faster techs? definitely not; screw this, I'm done with this awful QQ-thread, I will write just one last thing: how the hell is it FAIR and OK when zerg has to throw down tons of spine crawlers to be safe vs early aggression when they tech, while terran are too smug to just spam missile turrets right on top of their ramp when wanna go 1/1/1 and suspect a pre-charged void ray timing attack because they couldn't get any scouting information? another very gosu information: turrets also "counter" the DTs which is the only other tech protoss could really go to when they try to pull something cute; yes missile turrets will suck if protoss just went colossi...yeah...well.... | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:09 Red Alert wrote: the whole point is if he isn't going VRs, dude. I know. And if he isn't going VRs then you still have marines+stim and a viking for scouting, saving a MULE. Sure, viking will be useless, but I guess that's the point of proxy tech, eh? Maybe throw down more bunkers. You can always get your money back. Too bad cannons don't work like that... | ||
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Red Alert
United States119 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:14 Barca wrote: I know. And if he isn't going VRs then you still have marines+stim and a viking for scouting, saving a MULE. Sure, viking will be useless, but I guess that's the point of proxy tech, eh? Maybe throw down more bunkers. You can always get your money back. Too bad cannons don't work like that... you can do all of those things. If he goes for a 2 gate FE his expo will be up and running before you even start yours. And you will be able to scout it with your viking. Good job. You can't do any kind of aggression early on w/ early stim rines or 1/1/1, so he can control the map pretty easily. Opening with stimmed marauder/rine gives you map control, but sucks vs void rays. | ||
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AcuWill
United States281 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:11 ahcho00 wrote: wow how can u even compare a charged void ray to a cloaked banshee acuwill. i mean i don't like to offend people, but that's a really stupid thing to say. a charged void ray can literally take any unit out 1v1 not to mention 3 charged void rays -- the DPS is insane. a cloaked banshee is only cloaked and detected by an obs, a scan, a turret, a canon, raven, overseer. those are actual counters because any one of those things would probably nullify the cloaked banshee. what beats 3 fully charged void rays? rycho - that's the problem we're getting at here and that's why the Op put it up for discussion. u don't want to blindly make vikings because it'll hurt ur economy severely early game and if u don't guess right, ur toast. it's the build that gives the protoss the advantage of either a - doing the build, and not losing anything, or b - doing the build and not losing anything. I microed viking will beat 3 fully charged VR. Of course, there are other considerations, like stalkers, etc., but that the point of the game. I think a lot of other posters in this thread are getting to the point: "Omg, terran have to deal with one attack that can beat them if not prepared against." Well, welcome to every T v X match-up for the other side. | ||
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Red Alert
United States119 Posts
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Barca
United States418 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:11 ahcho00 wrote: wow how can u even compare a charged void ray to a cloaked banshee acuwill. i mean i don't like to offend people, but that's a really stupid thing to say. a charged void ray can literally take any unit out 1v1 not to mention 3 charged void rays -- the DPS is insane. a cloaked banshee is only cloaked and detected by an obs, a scan, a turret, a canon, raven, overseer. those are actual counters because any one of those things would probably nullify the cloaked banshee. what beats 3 fully charged void rays? rycho - that's the problem we're getting at here and that's why the Op put it up for discussion. u don't want to blindly make vikings because it'll hurt ur economy severely early game and if u don't guess right, ur toast. it's the build that gives the protoss the advantage of either a - doing the build, and not losing anything, or b - doing the build and not losing anything. 3 VRs have a lower DPS than 5 uncloaked banshees. Those are both about equivalent in cost, considering that Starports are less expensive than Stargates. Also, keep in mind that Protoss only has 2 ways of detection; obs and cannons. Obs are too slow to keep up with banshees and cannons can be easily misplaced and cost a ton of minerals. Yes, there are counters, but it puts the Protoss player behind economically... What a tick, that's what all these Terran players are saying! :O | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:11 Crosswind wrote: LinkO/iEchoic - I guess there's just one other comment to consider. We've seen the other questionably balanced strategies be reflected in tournament positions. The main tournaments (GSL, TL Invite, KotB, IEM) and streams (Gisado's KotH) have all been dominated by Terran and Zerg. If you are correct, and this strategy is indeed overpowered, then we should see it reflected in the metagame, right? We should either see a lot of terrans losing to it at tournaments, or terrans having to gimp themselves to deal with this attack, and thus not doing as well. Obviously, this hasn't happened yet. It seems like, if things are as you say, within a month or two we should see this becoming a dominant strategy. So why don't we hang out a little bit and see what happens? Not that I begrudge you coming to the forums and declaring something that beat you to be a design flaw - that is the god-given right of all strategy forumers. But I think that a little perspective is in order. This strategy has yet to win a major tournament, or even factor in in one; let alone become dominant. It's a trick that you don't know how to deal with yet. That's all we can say for certain. -Cross I didn't say it was broken, so I don't know why you're addressing that to me. I am just discussing it in here because 99% of the people who have posted so far haven't used/played against or understand the strategy in any way. When people post things like "tech to battlecruisers" or "1rax marauder beats this" it needs to be clarified. The strategy is really strong against 1/1/1 type builds and it's worth talking about. I'm not ready to say it's a balance issue, but void rays are flawed just in the way that they're stupid units that are only useful for allins and insta-wins or completely failures. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:15 Red Alert wrote: you can do all of those things. If he goes for a 2 gate FE his expo will be up and running before you even start yours. And you will be able to scout it with your viking. Good job. You can't do any kind of aggression early on w/ early stim rines or 1/1/1, so he can control the map pretty easily. Opening with stimmed marauder/rine gives you map control, but sucks vs void rays. If he is going 2gate fe isn't that pretty obviously not a 3gate VR? You get to see his second gas timing with your scv if he is going for void rays it should be before his 2nd gateway and before his stalker can get out to deny your scouting. If he gets a gas that early for a 2gate expand, that's probably pretty silly but even still he's going to need a whole lot of sentries to spend that gas. Find the timings and sac an scv, do a small push, or spend a scan at the appropriate time. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:15 Red Alert wrote: you can do all of those things. If he goes for a 2 gate FE his expo will be up and running before you even start yours. And you will be able to scout it with your viking. Good job. You can't do any kind of aggression early on w/ early stim rines or 1/1/1, so he can control the map pretty easily. Opening with stimmed marauder/rine gives you map control, but sucks vs void rays. Who waits until they have a starport to scout his expo? At least he has to build his Nexus at the site. And you basically countered your own argument. You said stimmed Marine/Marauder give you map control, but stimmed Marines give the Protoss player map control. What? And 1/1/1 you can definitely gain map control, either with banshees or helion drop in mineral lines. Early aggression is not out of the question, here. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 12 2010 05:44 iEchoic wrote: That's also not the only way to stop it, just one example. But back on topic, I have no doubt voids are going to be changed not because of potential balance problems but because the unit has no role. The unit's entire role is to basically take a cheesy win or fail completely, and it has no function like originally described (countering massive units and being bad against small units) because it carries charge. They counter BCs and carriers, and obviously colossi who can't shoot them. Their role is anti-armored though, not anti-massive, or they would have +massive damage. They do well against armored units generally, and die horribly to hydras/marines. How is that not working as intended? I agree they are mostly used for cheese/allin type stuff, but that's because of a Terran unit, not the VR. Once you show your hand they make vikings and obliterate your VRs. Thus, gimmicky. If VRs were a more "normal" unit they still would never get used because vikings would still obliterate them. | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
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ahcho00
United States220 Posts
to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote: to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking. It's really not hard. The VRs destroying your base before hero viking can take them out would be a problem though. to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg. Kinda irrelevent since P pretty much can't get air unless they open with it against Banshees. And opening air is rarely optimal...so yeah banshees kill everything P reasonably has then, same as VRs. | ||
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Monkey5020
New Zealand24 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:20 iEchoic wrote: I didn't say it was broken, so I don't know why you're addressing that to me. I am just discussing it in here because 99% of the people who have posted so far haven't used/played against or understand the strategy in any way. When people post things like "tech to battlecruisers" or "1rax marauder beats this" it needs to be clarified. The strategy is really strong against 1/1/1 type builds and it's worth talking about. I'm not ready to say it's a balance issue, but void rays are flawed just in the way that they're stupid units that are only useful for allins and insta-wins or completely failures. Your'e exactly right. The void ray stalker timing attack has turn the match up into nothing but a game of rock paper scissors. Tbh though the majority of protosses just go all in at 7 minutes with either VR or 4 gate cheese and cross their fingers because they only know a build order and don't actually know how to play. Maybe game ending cheese is what defines the protoss race now... User was warned for this post | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:30 ahcho00 wrote: to acuwill - 1 microed viking will be 3 charged void rays?...who wants to test that out for me lol. i want to laugh. really. i dunno maybe i just suck but i haven't been able to beat 3 fully charged void rays with 1 godlike microed viking. to barca - 3 fully charged void rays do have a lower dps than 5 banshees, but the only catch is banshees are only air to ground and not air to air while voidrays can ata and atg. Yes, you are correct. Congratulations. Did you also know that while 1 Collosus > 1 Marine, there's a catch - the marine can shoot up! It has ATA capabilities. So they're basically the same, using your logic. Yeah, that makes sense. And 1 Viking will beat 3 VRs as long as they don't have the acceleration upgrade. If they do, then that Viking better be piloted by Maverick, or he is screwed. | ||
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