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NOTE: Commenting in general, not just to the Original Poster.
1) Replay is a must. You describe what happened at point A and point C. Not what was done and wasn't done at point B.
2) Scouting isn't all about what you see, but a LOT about what you don't see. Do 20 x games of TvP. Then analyze. If you can't sneak in a scout, use scanner. Analyze what you see at timepoint X in each game. Then you should have a pretty good idea what buildings should show up. Is something missing? Alright. Then that's good intelligence, which should get your gray cells churning on what to expect. There aren't a WHOLE lot of combinations for what a protoss player can throw at you...
Similarily poke at his front, and pull back. What do you see? Does he engage and pursue? Or does he hold his ramp? What does that tell you? If he holds, it's likely he's either bad at his macro, or he invested his resources into something else than spewing out gate-tech units.
NOTE: As with analyzing build-orders and whether they are viable to use in games - scout repeatedly (trying a build order once doesn't teach u whether it works or not). Sometimes (especially on subpar non-elite levels) build-orders aren't rigidly followed, and there are slight delays in timings of what you'll expect to see. Without actually seeing a stargate, but just the lack of the robotics and a fourth gate, repeat the scouting to prevent commiting to the wrong counters.
3) Ok. So Stalker in front + charged Void Rays is a problem for you. Especially on maps with obstacles close to your ramp which the VRs can charge up on. Fine. Learn your maps. Avoid walling on such maps.
Next, several posters claim the VRs force certain reactions from the T player, and that the T players Banshee strat doesnt transition as well (did I get that right?). Well, what comes to mind are:
- If you can't seem to handle this matchup, how can you dissuade the opponent from going with this strategy?
- Can you delay his VRs by applying pressure at any point, or likewise forcing the P to react to you instead of the other way around?
I'm just a simple platinum ranked P player with way too few games behind my belt atm. And I realize I haven't produced any concrete suggestions on how to counter the stalker + charged VR push. So I pray you won't burn me too bad for this post ;P To finish up my two mints on this I'll add what I would do as a T fighting my P if I were to utilize this strat:
- Be the aggressor. If he indeed does go for VRs he should be less confident in his ground army and stick to his ramp. (Strikes me as a reversal to how I'd use goons in BW to delay the FD opening.)
- Map-hack (leave a marine, or plant down a supply depot at edges of map) to prevent the VRs from going UNDETECTED around ur forward army to ur base. (yet again, analyze replays where this happens, and check for VR-paths)
- Try it out. If it fails. Try it another 10 times. Then adjust. Just like Day[9] taught you ;P
There. I'll zip it now.
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@OP: I think the build you did in game 1 (2-1-1) can hold this off with just some tightening of your timings. You got your factory 50 seconds later than you could have, and your starport 17 seconds later. With crisp timing you'd have a starport a full 67 seconds earlier. While it's building, throw a reactor on your factory then swap it onto the port when done. You then have the option to build reactored vikings which will arrive in time to help defend the push. You might have to build them blind, which kinda sucks, but they will still be useful for scouting and colossi later in the game. With crisper rax production you would have an extra marine or two as well.
Once the push arrives, you simply have to keep your bio behind the bunker, with your vikings overhead to stop the voidrays from killing the bunker. Stimming to chase the protoss forces out of your choke cost you.
Since building blind vikings will put you VERY far behind a fast expanding protoss, I'd recommend some tweak to allow you to scout his natural between the 6-7 minute mark (or whenever the typical expansion timing would be). Perhaps a delayed reaper or hellion? That way you can produce medivacs instead of vikings and hit him with a nice timing push.
I think this thread would have been much more productive (with less gold leaguers telling 2k diamonds how to play) if you had avoided balance discussion altogether. I do think voidrays should only be able to charge on enemy units but they can still be managed.
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On October 12 2010 05:14 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:05 Barca wrote:
I'm having the hardest time understanding this thread. Aren't ALL proxies hard to scout? And don't VRs have counters: stimmed rines, vikings, and turrets? Especially with the 1-1-1 build, the Terran player already has the starport and marines to handle this. Microed vikings beat VRs without the acceleration upgrade, but that wouldn't even come into context if this is an early game/proxy rush.
Someone please reply to my post and thoroughly explain why the VR mechanic is messed up. Because even if it is, there are more pressing issues at hand if a unit has a clear-and-present counter. There are some who do not.
Maybe now Terran players know what it's like to ALWAYS have to go 2 gate robo against them to be safe against cloaked banshees. The threat of the unit forces me to open the game differently than if that unit did not exist; I must get an oberserver or it's an auto-win for the Terran if he goes cloaked banshees. Because CHARGED voidrays have no counter except mass stimmed marines, something 1/1/1 is not very strong at putting out. 3 rax is for that. So basically, as soon as you go 1/1/1 you have to start making vikings and throwing up 2 bunkers and getting marines to counter the build. Nobody does that, because it's completely dumb if they don't do the voidray allin. If they go for an FE, you can't punish it and will be behind big time. If they go for some other proxied tech (dt,robo,blink stalker) you're screwed. The reason the VR mechanic is messed up is because there is no counter to precharged voidrays. Marines don't do that great, especially given that they have worse range and can't hit voidrays with a zealot wall in front. Vikings die instantly unless they kite, and you can't kite when voidrays are killing your bunkers in the front of your base. Turrets die ridiculously fast too. You cannot equate it to cloaked banshees. It's not like the observer isn't a standard, safe thing to go. Protoss should be getting them every game anyways, simply because playing blind is retarded. You should not be massing vikings every game, especially that early on. You should not be placing multiple bunkers at your front every game. You are arguing that going one tech path blind every game is safe to do (robo), which though is extremely limiting, basically cutting out 2 tech paths and making the terran game completely free in comparison (with regard to having open tech paths).
I could make the same argument: Every game get viking with mass stimmed marines as to not die to voidrays. It is safe and normal.
The point is, this type of play (VR) is no different that any race's capacity to go tech paths which will seem overpowered if not countered properly and require good scouting with appropriate response.
Coming out and shouting NERF because of that seems to be overreacting and quite ludicrous from the stand point of many of us Toss players.
And I am not pro, ~700 Diamond.
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On October 12 2010 05:14 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:05 Barca wrote:
I'm having the hardest time understanding this thread. Aren't ALL proxies hard to scout? And don't VRs have counters: stimmed rines, vikings, and turrets? Especially with the 1-1-1 build, the Terran player already has the starport and marines to handle this. Microed vikings beat VRs without the acceleration upgrade, but that wouldn't even come into context if this is an early game/proxy rush.
Someone please reply to my post and thoroughly explain why the VR mechanic is messed up. Because even if it is, there are more pressing issues at hand if a unit has a clear-and-present counter. There are some who do not.
Maybe now Terran players know what it's like to ALWAYS have to go 2 gate robo against them to be safe against cloaked banshees. The threat of the unit forces me to open the game differently than if that unit did not exist; I must get an oberserver or it's an auto-win for the Terran if he goes cloaked banshees. Because CHARGED voidrays have no counter except mass stimmed marines, something 1/1/1 is not very strong at putting out. 3 rax is for that. So basically, as soon as you go 1/1/1 you have to start making vikings and throwing up 2 bunkers and getting marines to counter the build. Nobody does that, because it's completely dumb if they don't do the voidray allin. If they go for an FE, you can't punish it and will be behind big time. If they go for some other proxied tech (dt,robo,blink stalker) you're screwed. The reason the VR mechanic is messed up is because there is no counter to precharged voidrays. Marines don't do that great, especially given that they have worse range and can't hit voidrays with a zealot wall in front. Vikings die instantly unless they kite, and you can't kite when voidrays are killing your bunkers in the front of your base. Turrets die ridiculously fast too. You cannot equate it to cloaked banshees. It's not like the observer isn't a standard, safe thing to go. Protoss should be getting them every game anyways, simply because playing blind is retarded. You should not be massing vikings every game, especially that early on. You should not be placing multiple bunkers at your front every game.
I don't see how pre-charging VRs is any different than Mutas using the Magic Box: using micro-tricks to enhance the performance of your units. But that's not to say it isn't too powerful.
There is a counter to pre-charged VRs, I think you meant to say charged. And I still see a counter to them charged. Keep in mind that the Protoss player had to pay 150/150 and then 250/150 for this fast VR because going Stargate is not standard for PvT. Well, not currently.
Vikings, turrets, marines. I don't see how there is no counter. I'm a protoss player and I can micro a viking to never even get touched by a VR thanks to the 9 range. If the VR is pounding down your bunker WHILE taking damage from the viking, then that VR is going to die and you're left defending against gateway units.
Yes, I can equate it to cloaked banshees because they are both builds that force the opponent to counter it blindly. Putting down "free" brunkers is wayyyy better than having to get a fast obs. And if we do scout air, then Protoss should put down a Stargate, but then the Robo is useless. So that ob costed 200/100 + 50/100 in total.
And proxy things are hard to find with ALL races.
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That was posted on the last page (or second last) - read the thread if you are going to "contribute"...
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Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP.
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On October 12 2010 05:32 Barca wrote:Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP.
The polt timing attack is stopped by the (what is starting to become standard) forge + fast templar tech.
And lol at marines dodging a storm, if marines are dodging your storms then you throwing terrible storms, because if you land a storm on a marine ball, by time they run out they'll be all dead or all nearly dead.
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Well written and pretty much sums up the entire problem of TvP at its current state.
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On October 12 2010 05:19 Erafiel wrote:
- Be the aggressor. If he indeed does go for VRs he should be less confident in his ground army and stick to his ramp. (Strikes me as a reversal to how I'd use goons in BW to delay the FD opening.)
or he is sticking to his ramp because he doesn't want you to know what he has. Poke up there early on and you will basically lose the game to a single force field.
- Map-hack (leave a marine, or plant down a supply depot at edges of map) to prevent the VRs from going UNDETECTED around ur forward army to ur base. (yet again, analyze replays where this happens, and check for VR-paths)
once the VRs are en route to your base, it's too late. What are you going to do in the 1 min it takes him to move the VRs to your choke and charge up?
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On October 12 2010 05:33 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:32 Barca wrote:Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP. The polt timing attack is stopped by the (what is starting to become standard) forge + fast templar tech. And lol at marines dodging a storm, if marines are dodging your storms then you throwing terrible storms, because if you land a storm on a marine ball, by time they run out they'll be all dead or all nearly dead.
Throwing down a forge should not be the correct response, that just cripples the Protoss's map control allowing the Terran to expand first. If that is indeed the only way to stop it, then the build seems overpowered. I'm still looking for other ways that allow for good transitions so I don't have to cry IMBA and whine.
I think you're misunderstanding me about the storms vs. EMP; not my biggest concern. Plus, normally Terran bio is MMM and marauders can withstand +3 storms if microed correctly. EMP is currently too powerful, plain and simple. It's better than feedback and storms combined.
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I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan.
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On October 12 2010 05:40 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:33 iEchoic wrote:On October 12 2010 05:32 Barca wrote:Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP. The polt timing attack is stopped by the (what is starting to become standard) forge + fast templar tech. And lol at marines dodging a storm, if marines are dodging your storms then you throwing terrible storms, because if you land a storm on a marine ball, by time they run out they'll be all dead or all nearly dead. Throwing down a forge should not be the correct response, that just cripples the Protoss's map control allowing the Terran to expand first. If that is indeed the only way to stop it, then the build seems overpowered. I'm still looking for other ways that allow for good transitions so I don't have to cry IMBA and whine.
Most top protosses now I play on ladder are running a fast templar into a reasonably fast second base. They'll let me take my third base and it doesn't matter because there is no cost effective composition that beats zealots/stalkers and HT spam lategame (or at least nobody has discovered one). It's fine if the terran expands one over you early on because the longer the game goes the bigger advantage you accumulate due to the strength of your composition.
That's also not the only way to stop it, just one example. But back on topic, I have no doubt voids are going to be changed not because of potential balance problems but because the unit has no role. The unit's entire role is to basically take a cheesy win or fail completely, and it has no function like originally described (countering massive units and being bad against small units) because it carries charge.
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I wonder if it's possible to tweak the rine/banshee/raven push to give you enough marines and stim in time to fend the voidray push?
You just don't do the early poke, because aggression with 5 units usually isn't worth it against a competent toss.
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On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan.
How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so.
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Russian Federation20 Posts
I don't get it. How did you conclude that there is a design flaw? I mean, there should be some basic assumption that leads to such conclusion. So what is that assumption?
From reading the thread I may think that this assumption is "There shouldn't be any openings that are hard to scout and counter". Therefore void rays should be redesigned. But then the whole game appears to be a huge design flaw especially from Protoss and Zerg point of view.
Or is it only Terran player should be safe against any openings which are hard to scout and counter? Why? Is there are some inherent features of Terran that imply that Terran shouldn't have weakness to any surprise attack? Lack of scouting? Weak units? Anything?
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On October 12 2010 04:58 ahcho00 wrote:
i'm putting them in caps because apparently not many people seem to understand that the op is trying to point those things and many people are mindlessly giving out builds and stuff that is irrelevant to this as also many people have stated in this topic.
and to answer ur question about the transition didn't u read link0's post about the guy just running a zealot up his base and seeing that he tried to build a blind counter and just expanded and macroed up? he couldn't do anything about it.
edit: and it basically boils down to the fact that what's giving the OP trouble is the fully charged 3 void rays (please note fully charged as if i put caps again i might offend u), thus transitioning into the idea that void ray unit needs a overhaul. i don't like to post in caps, but i post in caps because many people are failing at reading what the OP has tried to say in the first place.
I think you mean iEchoic not link0 and he was apparently so committed to turtling and defending void rays that the protoss player apparently saw he was unbreakable with his first zealot before even placing his stargate. I don't think that means very much, he didn't transition out of 3gate voidray he never even went into it.
On October 12 2010 05:40 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:33 iEchoic wrote:On October 12 2010 05:32 Barca wrote:Blizzard should be keeping their eyes on other things, like PDDs and EMPs. The Polt Timing attack, I'm a 1550 Protoss and I don't even know what units to get to stop that. And EMP > Feedback with range and AoE. Marines can dodge a storm, I can't dodge an EMP. The polt timing attack is stopped by the (what is starting to become standard) forge + fast templar tech. And lol at marines dodging a storm, if marines are dodging your storms then you throwing terrible storms, because if you land a storm on a marine ball, by time they run out they'll be all dead or all nearly dead. Throwing down a forge should not be the correct response, that just cripples the Protoss's map control allowing the Terran to expand first. If that is indeed the only way to stop it, then the build seems overpowered. I'm still looking for other ways that allow for good transitions so I don't have to cry IMBA and whine. I think you're misunderstanding me about the storms vs. EMP; not my biggest concern. Plus, normally Terran bio is MMM and marauders can withstand +3 storms if microed correctly. EMP is currently too powerful, plain and simple. It's better than feedback and storms combined.
This discussion belongs somewhere else.
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I think the design of void ray can borrow a little bit from the design of banshee. It needs to hit a lot harder non-charged and hit less hard charged.
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On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so.
Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding.
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On October 12 2010 06:00 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:50 Barca wrote:On October 12 2010 05:41 Red Alert wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the point - yes, we know void ray all ins are not totally invincible. The problem is that to counter them, you have to put yourself at a huge disadvantage vs every other protoss build. So if you want to be competitive at all, you have to not counter them. Or get a lucky scan. How do you counter this? I'd like to see the disadvantage you're at by doing so. Either pure marine w/ stim or fast vikings, both of which can really put on no pressure early on and have a really hard time expanding.
See, I don't see those as being horrible behind. Fast viking could be used to scout and save scan. And having lots of marines with stim? I don't see how those could possible be useless later in the game...
Plus, if he's going 3 gate - VR then he's not really thinking about expanding, either.
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EPT
