EPTVoid Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 32
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Xeln4g4
Italy1197 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 13 2010 22:51 Thrombozyt wrote: For the scouting: So you bank your scouting on the metagame not letting him risk one stalker? huh? if he tries to challenge your tower-control you should definitely battle for it; I was speaking about if he moves out with his whole force - and plz don't tell me you can't keep map-control vs protoss before void rays are out? this would be ludicrous, terran early game dominates protoss; of course you can't read anything into one stalker, neither in the initial force up his ramp (I would never send a unit up there, in 99% of the cases he will have zealot/stalker/sentry in 1:2:1 proportion...no matter what...) On October 13 2010 23:31 MrCon wrote: oGsTop died to this build today in GOM Team Invitationnal on blistering. I was waiting for this - yeah, FE with marauders definitely deserves to hold vs void rays lol seriously, this was like the worst match to discuss balance of void rays; | ||
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jaerak
United States124 Posts
Toss charged up 2 VRs on the rocks outside my door, and melted 3 bunkers with ease MM army dead in 4 seconds to a handful of stalkers, a sentry, and charged up VRs One of the most gut-wrenching pure BO losses I ever faced. Instantly voted against shakuras plateau afterwards >=( | ||
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Terranist
United States2496 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 13 2010 23:54 jaerak wrote: Toss charged up 2 VRs on the rocks outside my door, and melted 3 bunkers with ease nevertheless you/we shouldn't mix up void-ray-discussion with map-discussion void rays on shakuras ARE flawed because you can't prevent the charge-up in any way; the rocks are just frickin there, nothing that you could do about it....well...you could destroy them pre-emptively lol; but on "normal" maps the forward-pylon plays THE key role, and this can be scouted/prevented | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On October 13 2010 09:18 dekuschrub wrote: the 3 gate voidray build is so similar to the reaver bulldog in SC1. basically the best way to deal with it is to know if your opponent expanded + his stalker count. if he has no expo and lots of stalkers you can probly guess that 3 bunkers is a good idea. idk why people keep mentioning 1 1 1 like its good, but 1 1 1 is only good if you rush banshees (or i guess the hellion drop stuff). A super popular build right now is 2 rax (1 tech 1 reactor) into reactored starport, and the delayed reaper in this build can hopefully give you the info you in time to throw up the bunkers/start building viking medivac. The reaper should be able to scout at least if he has an expo or his gateway count, and if you see 3 gate no robo in the main you can pretty much assume its either DTs, proxy startgate, or proxy robo trying to do some gay warp prism antics. you can be safe against all of these with 2-3 bunkers at the front + turret, so you dont really need to find where the stargate is. However, its kind of a shit show if you happen to miss the proxy pylon or voids coming, but if you defend the rush then you basically win when medivac count gets high enough so its not so bad. what the real problem is comes in actually defending this shit with little to no warning. with like 1 forcefield protoss can totally fuck your ability to repair bunkers as well as get your units to actually shoot. I would have to agree that actually not dying to this is pretty damn hard Yep, the bulldog opening is powerful because Terran players didn't know how to respond. They had to learn to keep an active tabulation on the protoss army in order to see if the protoss was doing a FE, dragoon / zealot style break in, or reavers. Because of this style of play that a protoss player CAN do, it limited the amount of things a Terran player could reasonably open the game with and still be on even footing. I think the 3gate stargate opening for protoss will function in a very similar fashion. Right now there is a menagerie of openings Terran can use. Now they'll have to prepare for this, whether actively (lots of marines) or passively (safe build orders), and this will seriously limit what is viable in the matchup. This is a good thing for the meta to stabilize. Sure, it might be hard as balls for Terran players right now, but you'll have to tailor your build order to accommodate this strategy. Remember, there aren't may builds protoss players can do that will outright win the game for them. Contrasting it from the Terran side, there are a LOT of builds that can end the game for protoss if scouted improperly (3/1/2, banshee cloak, hellion drop, etc..). They are generally selecting a build order that will lead them to the late game where they can combat MMM / MMMG compositions. Terran just needs to stay on even footing throughout the match and not go for the easy win in the first 10 minutes. I think this is pretty reasonable. Once in the late game, Protoss is at a slight advantage due to templars, but Terran has plenty of options to choose from as well. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On October 13 2010 23:45 sleepingdog wrote: huh? if he tries to challenge your tower-control you should definitely battle for it; I was speaking about if he moves out with his whole force - and plz don't tell me you can't keep map-control vs protoss before void rays are out? this would be ludicrous, terran early game dominates protoss; of course you can't read anything into one stalker, neither in the initial force up his ramp (I would never send a unit up there, in 99% of the cases he will have zealot/stalker/sentry in 1:2:1 proportion...no matter what...) I was waiting for this - yeah, FE with marauders definitely deserves to hold vs void rays lol seriously, this was like the worst match to discuss balance of void rays; He scanned the stargate after 4 marauders and started pumping marines only at this point. Anyway my post was saying nothing about balance or not. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On October 13 2010 23:45 sleepingdog wrote: huh? if he tries to challenge your tower-control you should definitely battle for it; I was speaking about if he moves out with his whole force - and plz don't tell me you can't keep map-control vs protoss before void rays are out? this would be ludicrous, terran early game dominates protoss; of course you can't read anything into one stalker, neither in the initial force up his ramp (I would never send a unit up there, in 99% of the cases he will have zealot/stalker/sentry in 1:2:1 proportion...no matter what...) Battle him how? If I have marauders and shells, then I have control anyhow and he won't move from his ramp, but then voidrays screw me for having too many marauders. The marines I want to make, won't catch the stalker, but get picked off by it. Terran early game dominates because of marauders and their shells. If I'm not getting them, I can chase the stalker all day long without success. Something I have also described on the p21 post: Terran in my experience is only dominant, if he invests in it by getting marauders - the unit he won't need against the voidrays and that delay the units that could help (marines by eating rax time and vikings by eating gas). But now that you pick up the scouting topic: How the hell am I supposed to scout in order to make a non-guessing decision about my unit comp? Scanning obviously doesn't cut it, especially on maps with large mains (which are most of the maps) and voidrays strike just as my floating factory enters his base. You said yourself, that from poking I cannot deduce anything. So I invest in mapcontrol and get the warning that toss moves out - which are like 30-40 secs. Granted, that is enough to cancel a medivac and get a viking, but to really stop the push you need more marines and it is not enough time to get up extra rax. I believe that is the reason for the opening post: In order to be safe against this push, I more or less have to open with more than one barracks, as the starport won't be up in time to produce significant amounts of vikings. Stargate and starport require both 2 buildings before (rax/fact vs gate/cyber), just that the cybernetics core costs no gas and will therefore always go up before the factory. Thus I have to open 2 or 3 rax to be safe, which puts me behind against standard builds. In comparison, toss sits in his base after his stalker has been chased away until obs, knows exactly what is coming and is fine against everything. Or do you know a terran build that punishes the standard robo build? | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On October 09 2010 14:16 link0 wrote: ... I think this design just makes T v P into a big build order poker because of the difficulty of scouting this. ... I think this is the best way to sum up the PvT (or TvP, if you lean that way) matchup I've read so far. I haven't experienced it personally at any high level recently, but it seems this way from all the PvT I've been watching in tournaments (I've been toying with the idea of switching to P from Z, not because of balance, but all the shiny units). It seems like if P opens stargate, it straightjackets Terran into a bunch of builds that aren't optimal against standard play. Then again, cloaked banshees are such a threat that Protoss feels straightjacketed into going robo for detection. It really feels like a build-order-roulette -- you're gambling hoping that the other player isn't doing the one build that would screw you if you're going standard play, because if he is, you're going to almost auto-lose. And there's no reliable way to scout it in time. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
Switching targets once charged shouldn't renew the whole amount of charge time left. It should have a timer where it loses charge if it switches targets, untill it is off charge, then it can charge again on a single unit. | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
On October 14 2010 02:31 P00RKID wrote: VR charge should only last for as long as it has been charging on the main target once they switch. If it fired on a nexus for 10 seconds, then it will keep a 10 second charge. If it fired on a nexus untill it got charge, then it would keep like a 1 second charge, losing it before you could even switch to something else. Switching targets once charged shouldn't renew the whole amount of charge time left. It should have a timer where it loses charge if it switches targets, untill it is off charge, then it can charge again on a single unit. Please realize that after a change like this not a single void ray would be built ever again. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
What do protoss do to prevent the insta-loss from a PDD at their front door? They engage mid-map where they can make the terran burn their PDD to buy time. The difference in the two examples is that the terran can flat out win at this timing if he meets the protoss mid-map with uncharged void rays. At worst it buys the terran additional time. The games ive lost with this strategy (not very many) have all involved a fight that started before I was set up. A stim'd marauder doesn't have enough HP to charge a void ray and a stage 2 void ray does the same damage as stage 1. In a general sense, regarding the scouting argument, I think lower level terrans (sub 1500) that have not dabbled in the other races have to master the skill of counting with their initial and subsequent scouts. Often they seem to send their SCV in and see if I built a gas then turn around and leave. Im not sure what information theyre looking for, but I know they dont get it. Making reasonable conclusions based on what you see or dont see is a part of this game. Often when counting the front I see things that require me to prepare for MORE THAN ONE possibility. Its not easy to make a comp that will survive all the possbilities, but I don't think I've come across a game yet where I couldnt have. Its like those questions they give you on the law school admissions test... you'll have about half the information you really feel you need... but all the information is actually there... you just need to be... smarter. Edit: One thing I missed involved strategy building...KCDC's now popular fast expand build was so well put-together and succesful because through tweaking and feedback on that thread, his build was able to account for every single timing window. First it was the cloaked banshee and 3 mara/1rine/1hellion poke, then it was certain timing pushes, and now its drops. Honestly all SOLID builds should take all of these timing windows into account. That build may not beat a certain timing window, but that doesnt make it unusable... it makes it another trick in your bag. | ||
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Monkey5020
New Zealand24 Posts
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Dreadwolf
Canada220 Posts
On October 14 2010 08:00 Monkey5020 wrote: Jayrod your'e correct but how can terran force protoss to engage mid map? If he moves his force out from his base and a void ray turns up at his mineral line that is game. How is it different than a drop from terrans? except for protoss not having sensor tower? | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On October 14 2010 08:00 Monkey5020 wrote: Jayrod your'e correct but how can terran force protoss to engage mid map? If he moves his force out from his base and a void ray turns up at his mineral line that is game. How is this any different than Hellion harass/hellion drop though? The protoss can't push out with a full force without making a big sacrifice (either not warping in or not supplementing his force with warp ins.. wrong decision could mean a loss). For that matter how is it any different than the protoss who has to meet the terran push mid-map? You have to know when they move out or you're exposed to drops .... you cant just plop your army down mid map and expect to well... not lose. Terran has the privelege of a scan... its 100% uncounterable information for a part of the map. There are clever ways to use it and dumb ways to use it and thats up to the terran to figure out. Other races in the meantime are more intent on holding towers or leaving a cheap unit/worker out in the attack path for information. Its a scouting issue to find out when an attack is coming... thats part of the game... for all the races and getting surprise attacked can make you lose in any match up vs any comp. In practicing the build my practice partner and I basically concluded that in most cases its better to keep the VRs over your main army, because your ground army is simply so weak. With scouting information you will see that his ground army is literally mass stalkers, which will get shreaded by marauders even in small numbers...The mix I landed on as a protoss player is only slightly more stalkers than zealots... it helps tremendously against marauders. The problem with moving your void rays is simply that they suck on their own... Your bio ball will crush their ground force without the precharged VR support. If they just send the rays then that makes it a very easy win for you if you didnt completely commit to some timing push. Its so crucial against every terran push to know when its coming.. its really super hard to defend any of the pushes as toss without looking at their army comp that is coming. I cant imagine terran is too used to being outright attacked by a timing push from toss... other than a crappy 4 warpgate, which im sure you've been trained by now to deal with. My argument will remain at... if you engage a mass stalker void ray comp outside your base and his, you will crush him. If you don't, you better have the correct units to deal with it. How you scout it is up to you but its scoutable and beatable... just not easy. Hopefully at least a couple people benefit from engaging outside of the base with the same logic as the Stalker vs. raven approach for toss. It works. | ||
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Ganondorf
Italy600 Posts
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forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
... No. Many would argue SC2 is more pivotal on good scouting than its predecesor, and this is just an example. This is the game becoming a true competetive game, instead of a crap flinging contest. Over the course of SC2's lifespan, you're going to hear about/participate in a lot of "impossible to stop unless scouted" builds, and that's a "GOOD THING". And hell, Tester proved to us with good micro, even that's not true. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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slam
United States923 Posts
On October 14 2010 10:34 GoldenH wrote: I Had an amusing game last night, I had a dozen zealots and 3 VRs, when i got pushed by someone who did 2/1/1 with a raven, 5 marauders and 11 marines. I had not realized that VRs prioritzie ravens and PDDs over marines, but they do! So I didn't micro except to pre-charge my VRs (I was just screwing around and using my touchpad on my laptop, good luck microing with that). I lost my whole army and he only lost the raven, PDD, and 5 marines. It won't necessarily work, but definitely try dropping PDDs against void ray, he won't be able to attack move! (Hunter missile or Turret might also be a good try). LoL, are you really discussing a game in which you played using trackpad? Unless you have charge it makes sense that zealots wont do shit and it's your fault you didn't notice that your vrays were targeting PDD and raven. I doubt that vrays naturally target ravens over marines, it probably had to do with positioning. Why would you even post this? | ||
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