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On October 10 2010 00:10 lizzuma wrote:
It isn't a harassment build at all, it's designed to kill.
I've got a rep from tester where he uses to void rays to distract his opponent on scrap station while throwing up a "relatively" fast expansion
even if its proxied it's nowhere near unstoppable because you can get intel from what you "not" see - 3 gate and no robo and "relatively" few units? definitely void rays;
as I said, I've seen it getting beaten quite comfortably by reactor openings too - of course this means no early concussive-harass, but isn't his basicly what meta-game is all about
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Btw I am guessing most haven't checked out the replays? He isn't proxying his stargate there at all. Neato strat but it feels like if you do manage to stop it you'll be nicely ahead. Not allin ahead but still ahead.
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Its funny how most people here have actualy no idea what this rush really is and just post nonsense from gold leauge. If protoss is really commiting with a 100% chronoboost on 2 voidrays and support from 3 wg and probe cut its not ''easely'' stopped. Fully charged voidrays with a sentry to decrease marine dps and a dickton of stalkers is serious buisness and it hits fast really fast. If you open just 2 rax even with reactor first your are going to get raped really unless you somehow have the time to make atleast 2 bunkers. Saw it yesterday once more as demu got smashed with a 2 rax with fast reactor and it was a non contest really.
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Most horrible unit in the game. I hate them. I see 3 or more and I shit myself.
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On October 10 2010 00:17 sleepingdog wrote:
I've got a rep from tester where he uses to void rays to distract his opponent on scrap station while throwing up a "relatively" fast expansion
even if its proxied it's nowhere near unstoppable because you can get intel from what you "not" see - 3 gate and no robo and "relatively" few units? definitely void rays;
as I said, I've seen it getting beaten quite comfortably by reactor openings too - of course this means no early concussive-harass, but isn't his basicly what meta-game is all about
Tester never liked void rays too much. I remember from an Artosis video back in the day when voids had range of 7, tester (playing T for fun) would say "thank you" when he sees voids.
This just sounds like the T's who got so used to "I can do whatever I want." Now zerg and protoss started to develop some solid builds "its a design flaw."
The whole Terran race was a "design flaw" if u look at it that way. What about put ur heads together to come up with a solution?
Hey what about this? you micro everything so well that voids lose their charge? Impossible? Is it more impossible than dodging EMP's? That was the solution you, Terrans, came up for the protoss players. Oh and L2P. The rest of us got that a lot alrdy. And i have a feeling its T's turn now.
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On October 09 2010 16:49 MayorITC wrote:
3 rax bio can hold it off. 1/1/1 can hold it off (granted you go viking first).
The only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build.
3 rax bio is probably the worst build ever. It gives you loads of units early on that can't do any pushing. It fits perfectly into what OP described as builds that yeah, survive against this but is terrible versus everything else. And because you can't really scout the proxy stargate reliably, you can't rely on it being scouted either.
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You also cant possibly afford 3 gate stalkers plus void rays. You need to be on 2 bases for that, even if you cut probes
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Sure, a few T players want a voidray nerf, everyone's for it.
A couple of Protoss suggest an EMP or marauder nerf, everyone has hissy-fit
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On October 10 2010 00:34 cive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 00:17 sleepingdog wrote:
I've got a rep from tester where he uses to void rays to distract his opponent on scrap station while throwing up a "relatively" fast expansion
even if its proxied it's nowhere near unstoppable because you can get intel from what you "not" see - 3 gate and no robo and "relatively" few units? definitely void rays;
as I said, I've seen it getting beaten quite comfortably by reactor openings too - of course this means no early concussive-harass, but isn't his basicly what meta-game is all about Tester never liked void rays too much. I remember from an Artosis video back in the day when voids had range of 7, tester (playing T for fun) would say "thank you" when he sees voids. This just sounds like the T's who got so used to "I can do whatever I want." Now zerg and protoss started to develop some solid builds "its a design flaw." The whole Terran race was a "design flaw" if u look at it that way. What about put ur heads together to come up with a solution? Hey what about this? you micro everything so well that voids lose their charge? Impossible? Is it more impossible than dodging EMP's? That was the solution you, Terrans, came up for the protoss players. Oh and L2P. The rest of us got that a lot alrdy. And i have a feeling its T's turn now.
Did you actually take time to read, with attention to detail, the good posts in this thread? This is the most utterly retarded piece of shit of a post I have ever seen. You DO realize that void rays can attack while moving right? There is no way to out micro void rays so that they lose their charge once they are in your base with the current charge mechanics. Spreading HT, yes, is FAR easier than trying to "out micro" void rays. I'd really love to hear your suggestion on it.
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Linko makes a thread saying stopping the build takes extreme undesirable measures.
Every protoss player tries this build, with mixed or great results.
Terran players around the globe look for the solution.
Someone finds one.
Find them through Reps, Build order history, vods, or tournies.
Profit!
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I honestly think that void rays are very balanced... i mean like the above poster said... you cant get 3 gate stalkers and void rays on 1 base...
But yeah mate, nerf Protoss more... We didn't get enough nerfs in the last 20 patches or so =/!.
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I like the Idea of changing the Void Ray as a unit. It feels to gimmicky and useless without the charge-up ability. What I don't like at all is that your suggestion removes not only this specific "all in strat" it also nerf the hell out of Void Rays as harass unit, and it's not like Toss got plenty of early harass options vs Terran. With your suggested change it will almost be effortless to defend vs VR-harass. If you could come up with any Idea to nerf this specific strat without taking away the power as harass-unit I would agree, but I doubt that's possible...
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On October 10 2010 00:34 cive wrote:
This just sounds like the T's who got so used to "I can do whatever I want." Now zerg and protoss started to develop some solid builds "its a design flaw."
the thing is, if it "were" unstoppable, then we could discuss imbalance - but it's not; this is why we see void rays practicly always being done as proxy cheese; if protoss plays void rays "openly" (meaning he builds stargate near his warpgates and shows his first void ray together with the rest of his units when T pokes in) then I've seen T win at about 60-70% rate;
then it all comes down to T not being used to the thought that there is one build out there that will kill them if they don't scout correctly, make minor mistakes and don't react 100% correctly; nevertheless this is what zerg has been put up with pre 1.1 reapers and protoss with marine/banshee/raven all the time; T seriously has to take a step back and look at the easy time they have scouting-wise against protoss and zerg in 90% of the cases; because in these 90% protoss will play 2 gate robo colossi and zerg will play muta blingling infestor basicly always; having to put up with void rays in one out of ten matches (this is approximately the ratio I see them in high level reps) seems nothing in comparison to the huge range of terran timing attacks that insta kill protoss
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Easy just scout their base you have scans and Protoss don't wall off against Terran. ALSO unless your going mech (which few do) then your are either going mmm ball and with the huge amount of resources going to stargate-voidray they will have a much smaller army. The protoss VR build punishes mass marauders that is why i personally use it so much because 60% of terrans will go mm . the best way to counter is good scouting, early pushing with mm, or going 1/1/1
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On October 10 2010 01:05 lizzuma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 00:34 cive wrote:On October 10 2010 00:17 sleepingdog wrote:
I've got a rep from tester where he uses to void rays to distract his opponent on scrap station while throwing up a "relatively" fast expansion
even if its proxied it's nowhere near unstoppable because you can get intel from what you "not" see - 3 gate and no robo and "relatively" few units? definitely void rays;
as I said, I've seen it getting beaten quite comfortably by reactor openings too - of course this means no early concussive-harass, but isn't his basicly what meta-game is all about Tester never liked void rays too much. I remember from an Artosis video back in the day when voids had range of 7, tester (playing T for fun) would say "thank you" when he sees voids. This just sounds like the T's who got so used to "I can do whatever I want." Now zerg and protoss started to develop some solid builds "its a design flaw." The whole Terran race was a "design flaw" if u look at it that way. What about put ur heads together to come up with a solution? Hey what about this? you micro everything so well that voids lose their charge? Impossible? Is it more impossible than dodging EMP's? That was the solution you, Terrans, came up for the protoss players. Oh and L2P. The rest of us got that a lot alrdy. And i have a feeling its T's turn now. Did you actually take time to read, with attention to detail, the good posts in this thread? This is the most utterly retarded piece of shit of a post I have ever seen. You DO realize that void rays can attack while moving right? There is no way to out micro void rays so that they lose their charge once they are in your base with the current charge mechanics. Spreading HT, yes, is FAR easier than trying to "out micro" void rays. I'd really love to hear your suggestion on it.
Have you ever tried to spread you high templars and micro your zealots at the same time. All the while a MMM ball + 6 ghosts are just emp' left and right. High templars are so SLOW you can run away from a void ray if you have stim.
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I just did some simple timings, using the build u described.
did:
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
17 cyber
18 gas
25 Stargate
26 Gate
30 Gate (Produced 1 stalker and 1 sentry is in the production right now as well)
Stargate finishes at 30, at the next 150 gas went to a VR (Could've been 10-15 seconds sooner but felt safer going stalker/sentry/stalker instead of stalker-->zealot-->X)
The "timing push" with 3 VR's comes around the 9:10 minute mark (Tested on blistering sands, on smaller maps obviously cut off 10-20 seconds depending on rush distance). Timing included a pylon+charge.
EDIT: If you wanna focus on getting the 3 VR's as fast as possible, your gateway force will be smaller by a few units, and you could probably squeak out the VR's about 30 seconds earlier, your choice though.
My method for production, stock the 150 gas, make VR then warp in as many stalkers as i could while it builds then restock the gas, so i wasnt producing VR's for ~10-15 seconds in between them, i would have to see their timing for VR's to really make judgement
Once the pylon finished i warped in 3 stalkers outside the base and then charged (with 3 VR's you can charge without killing the pylon for future warping, just fyi).
The push comes with:
13 stalkers
3 VRs
1 sentry.
You can vary the timing slightly by doing stalker/zealot composition and skip the sentry. but any early aggression ur basically boned if u dont make a sentry.
BTW this is done without cutting probes, i did my best to keep my probe production the same as with other strats and had roughly 34 probes at the 9:10 push mark, after you start the push you can afford to expand (warp in one less stalker and you would have your 400 minerals).
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for the people that don't know what they're talking about...
It's not "hard to stop." If you do not scout it 100% - you automatically lose the game to x3 voids x3 gates.
And they can put the stargate anywhere on the map to accumulate the x3 voids before they move out into your wall - assuming you walled.
I've played people on ladder before who I would consider 30 apm noobies, who have done this build, and then start building gateways/pylons in front of your base to pre-charge their voidrays for what feels like a freewin for them IF you didn't completely blindly start building vikings from a starport.
So basically, it's exactly like the OP said. The build has been out for a while, it's pretty ridiculous. Dumb people that are commenting about voids, or vikings, or other random shiot, re-read the OP - he's referring to a specific build protoss does where their starport is hidden, they build three warpgates, and once they have 3 void rays hit your base.
If you didn't start building vikings, you lose. If you went 3 rax like OP and others said, you're doing a blind all-in-ish counter, not to mention stimming your army and losing life.
It's builds like these that make SC2 shallow build order poker sometimes...yes, it's stoppable, but there's only so much you can prepare for each game. So...you prepare for it...they went FE!
It's ridiculous.
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On October 10 2010 01:35 justinsroy wrote:
The "timing push" with 3 VR's comes around the 9:10 minute mark (Tested on blistering sands, on smaller maps obviously cut off 10-20 seconds depending on rush distance). Timing included a pylon+charge.
at this point the terran can have ~24-26 marines with stim AND medivac-support; the void rays will die in split-seconds
the usual push (done eg by nexgenius) comes MUCH earlier, using only two void rays and a handful of stalkers; at this point terran neither has the critical mass of stimmed marines nor is the starport normally up yet (if it is it has just started producing)
On October 10 2010 01:46 avilo wrote:
It's builds like these that make SC2 shallow build order poker sometimes...yes, it's stoppable, but there's only so much you can prepare for each game. So...you prepare for it...they went FE!
It's ridiculous.
maybe I should really do void rays more, obviously many terrans can't handle situations where they have to "re"-act instead of just act
simply according to the QQ that's thrown around here which is much worse than in any zerg and protoss "how do I stop this particular timing from T"-thread
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On October 10 2010 01:46 avilo wrote:
So basically, it's exactly like the OP said. The build has been out for a while, it's pretty ridiculous. Dumb people that are commenting about voids, or vikings, or other random shiot, re-read the OP - he's referring to a specific build protoss does where their starport is hidden, they build three warpgates, and once they have 3 void rays hit your base.
except that's not what the OP said, the starport(edit: stargate i'm retarded) was not hidden in either game, it was in his base in a spot where you wouldn't be surprised to even see a gateway placed. the only reason he lost those games is because he was not pro-active about his scouting. of course if neither player scouts the map for anything and doesnt scout the opponents base one of them is going to lose to a 1-base all-in. there's a reason the pro protoss players never use a build like this in a tourney.
edit: now that i said that i don't think it's fair to change or modify it to match some other truths i just realized that i forgot about, so i'll just add it.
it has been done before, but almost never. if it was impossible to scout and counter then yeah, you'd probably see it all the time instead of like... once (i am thinking of hongun prime vs clide in the GSL)
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so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
