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This kind of rush come before 9.xx.
They usually have 2 void ray with an other one on the way.
And yes,
If you don't scout it (and you usually don't, or too late with sthg like a floating factory), you loose. Period.
If you scout it but
- went FE before you saw it => you loose
- went 1/1/1 without viking first => you loose
- marauder heavy ? => you loose
- walled off your base => you loose
- failed at microing vikings (and it's not that easy to micro them against ray) => you loose
- ...
The only way to win is going marines heavy + stim early (nobody do that because it sucks) or going bio heavy wth a few vikings and not missmicro not walling off. If you don't have enough viking your army will be dead before void ray die and you loose, if you missmicro you loose, and if you have too much vikings... well you loose aswell.
It's very hard to counter. When I play protoss and face a terran, that's the only strategy i'm doing it the current version \o/.
People who say it's easy to counter are either like super succesfull when playing tournament, lying, or both.
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The DPS-model of the Voidray is simply broken, compared to dps models of other units.
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On October 10 2010 01:57 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
there should be iq restriction on this forum
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On October 10 2010 01:47 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 01:35 justinsroy wrote:
The "timing push" with 3 VR's comes around the 9:10 minute mark (Tested on blistering sands, on smaller maps obviously cut off 10-20 seconds depending on rush distance). Timing included a pylon+charge. at this point the terran can have ~24-26 marines with stim AND medivac-support; the void rays will die in split-seconds the usual push (done eg by nexgenius) comes MUCH earlier, using only two void rays and a handful of stalkers; at this point terran neither has the critical mass of stimmed marines nor is the starport normally up yet (if it is it has just started producing) Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 01:46 avilo wrote:
It's builds like these that make SC2 shallow build order poker sometimes...yes, it's stoppable, but there's only so much you can prepare for each game. So...you prepare for it...they went FE!
It's ridiculous. maybe I should really do void rays more, obviously many terrans can't handle situations where they have to "re"-act instead of just act simply according to the QQ that's thrown around here which is much worse than in any zerg and protoss "how do I stop this particular timing from T"-thread
Re-read. It's not a "particular timing," and it's not QQing. It's a BUILD ORDER. A basic build order. There is no "reacting" - that's the entire damn point of this thread that just flew over your head and many others.
You cannot react unless you happened to scout the stargate in one of the 50 corners of the map while simultaneously not having that scout picked off by a stalker.
They execute a build order, you execute your build order, you see no stargate -> you do not start vikings -> you automatically lose.
You can build vikings completely blind, and you will blind counter the build. But it's like hitting the jackpot, because if they didn't do that build, they're probably FEing, or doing something else and you have vikings sitting around for nothing now.
Read before you try to comment like you're smart. There's no "particular timing." It's a basic build order.
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VR are nullified if you got a few vikings. Im a silver player and even i can kite to damage them. As terran getting vikings is a must no matter what you are facing.
Fighting zerg, if they dont go mutas is a great ovi sniper to force him to wastedrones/spend on AA. As T gets you air control to drop/kill his drops. Against P is the response to colossi. And if they dont go any of this units is still a a great unit to fly around to see hidden expas. With 2/3 you got a safe margin to fight.
Off course this is in silver/gold, maybe on diam/plat wasting on2/3 viks is not posible dont know, but on replays of good players you always see a few of them.
User was warned for this post
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On October 10 2010 02:00 ganil wrote:
This kind of rush come before 9.xx.
They usually have 2 void ray with an other one on the way.
And yes,
If you don't scout it (and you usually don't, or too late with sthg like a floating factory), you loose. Period.
If you scout it but
- went FE before you saw it => you loose
- went 1/1/1 without viking first => you loose
- marauder heavy ? => you loose
- walled off your base => you loose
- failed at microing vikings (and it's not that easy to micro them against ray) => you loose
- ...
The only way to win is going marines heavy + stim early (nobody do that because it sucks) or going bio heavy wth a few vikings and not missmicro not walling off. If you don't have enough viking your army will be dead before void ray die and you loose, if you missmicro you loose, and if you have too much vikings... well you loose aswell.
It's very hard to counter. When I play protoss and face a terran, that's the only strategy i'm doing it the current version \o/.
People who say it's easy to counter are either like super succesfull when playing tournament, lying, or both.
You can beat it with vikings, but you have to start making them early, or latest after your first raven or banshee. If you don't...you're dead.
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in a scenario where it's 1 ray vs 1 viking I'll never loose my viking but you have to micro your MM army aswell (or they'll die :p) and doing both at the same time is almost impossible.
edit: when I build vikings I usually don't have that much stuff on ground and end up being crushed unless I throw down a million bunker (and have even less army).
If the protoss come at the 1st ray and you built a raven, you loose too :p.
At this time I usually have sthg like 2 marauders and 6-7 marines and my raven wich isn't enough against 1 void ray and the protoss ground army.
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On October 10 2010 02:02 Akito wrote:
VR are nullified if you got a few vikings. Im a silver player and even i can kite to damage them. As terran getting vikings is a must no matter what you are facing.
Fighting zerg, if they dont go mutas is a great ovi sniper to force him to wastedrones/spend on AA. As T gets you air control to drop/kill his drops. Against P is the response to colossi. And if they dont go any of this units is still a a great unit to fly around to see hidden expas. With 2/3 you got a safe margin to fight.
Off course this is in silver/gold, maybe on diam/plat wasting on2/3 viks is not posible dont know, but on replays of good players you always see a few of them.
READ THE THREAD. FOR GODS SAKE!
What the hell is wrong with SC2 strategy posters. The thread is not about vikings > voids, or voids > vikings. Use your damn brain and reading comprehension!
Thread is about how hard this build is to scout, to the point that it's build order poker. No one gives a shit that vikings counter voids, or voids do so much damage.
The core idea here is that the stargate can be anywhere on the goddamn map, you as the terran have to somehow get an scv to 50 places on the map, without having it killed by a stalker, and then have the foresight to either completely blind build vikings, or happen to find the stargate through sheer scouting luck.
If you do not find it...and didn't pre-emptively build vikings...or didn't go 3 rax...you lose the game. Build order poker is awesome isn't it?
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On October 10 2010 02:05 ganil wrote:
in a scenario where it's 1 ray vs 1 viking I'll never loose my viking but you have to micro your MM army aswell (or they'll die :p) and doing both at the same time is almost impossible.
WOW. How many times do I have to post no one cares about void ray vs viking or any other simplistic unit interaction?
READ THE THREAD
On October 10 2010 02:00 Cashout wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 01:57 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
there should be iq restriction on this forum
I'm beginning to think this is necessary lmao
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On October 10 2010 02:06 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 02:05 ganil wrote:
in a scenario where it's 1 ray vs 1 viking I'll never loose my viking but you have to micro your MM army aswell (or they'll die :p) and doing both at the same time is almost impossible. WOW. How many times do I have to post no one cares about void ray vs viking or any other simplistic unit interaction? READ THE THREAD Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 02:00 Cashout wrote:On October 10 2010 01:57 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
there should be iq restriction on this forum I'm beginning to think this is necessary lmao
WOW, I was just answering to the previous guy and you turn berserk LOL.
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if you scout a stargate then go quick vikings??? Itslike if a protoss doesnt scout quick banashees and doesnt go robo to get obs its instant lose same as this build. Both can even be proxied.
Not scouted means lose for every race if its somethign direct, you can even try pushing out if you scout this as surely stalkers vs maruder will die and focus the vr's before they charge up with ur marines. You dont have to sit in ur base waiting. Early pressure them so they have to make more units then void rays.
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it seems pretty obvious that if you don't scout robotics or fast expand and he has 2-3 gateways that void rays are coming, this is not at all hard to scout
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This thread has had the greatest count of people not reading the thread out of anything on team liquid.
But to contribute to the discussion, how would changeing the charge affect the void ray? Most people tend to get it just for some proxy cheese, but their might be other uses I'm not aware of. I personally like the idea though, as if it charges up fast enough, it could be a bigger counter to those tier 3 behemoths like ultras and thors. I'm only a 1k diamond player though, so take this with a grain of salt.
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On October 10 2010 02:06 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 02:02 Akito wrote:
VR are nullified if you got a few vikings. Im a silver player and even i can kite to damage them. As terran getting vikings is a must no matter what you are facing.
Fighting zerg, if they dont go mutas is a great ovi sniper to force him to wastedrones/spend on AA. As T gets you air control to drop/kill his drops. Against P is the response to colossi. And if they dont go any of this units is still a a great unit to fly around to see hidden expas. With 2/3 you got a safe margin to fight.
Off course this is in silver/gold, maybe on diam/plat wasting on2/3 viks is not posible dont know, but on replays of good players you always see a few of them. READ THE THREAD. FOR GODS SAKE! What the hell is wrong with SC2 strategy posters. The thread is not about vikings > voids, or voids > vikings. Use your damn brain and reading comprehension! Thread is about how hard this build is to scout, to the point that it's build order poker. No one gives a shit that vikings counter voids, or voids do so much damage. The core idea here is that the stargate can be anywhere on the goddamn map, you as the terran have to somehow get an scv to 50 places on the map, without having it killed by a stalker, and then have the foresight to either completely blind build vikings, or happen to find the stargate through sheer scouting luck. If you do not find it...and didn't pre-emptively build vikings...or didn't go 3 rax...you lose the game. Build order poker is awesome isn't it?
And how is T being forced to get a few Vikings even though it may not be optimal vs. most P openings any different than P having to go robo vs. T every game, even though Twilight Council -> Templar Archives would be better vs. most T builds?
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On October 10 2010 01:57 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
so how hard is it to save 50 energy for a scan?
Do you read threads or just post random bs commnents?
half the people on this thread have been saying you know, proxy, moved away from base, ect. Why the hell would a protoss put a stargate right next to there nexus/gateways.
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I think you really gotta catch the void's before they are charged up.. 2-3 charged voidrays simply kills alot of ****. Voidrays not charged on the other hand, will not do very much. So jump them while they are weak.. Kinda like if you'r P, you dont want to let a few siege tanks set up camp around your ramp..
Also this seems like more of an all in than 4gate.. Getting an expansion up so fast might not be the best option.. But i guess this all comes down to the scouting issues..
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It's hard to tell from your replays, because you made a lot of weird decisions:
Game 1: When you put early pressure on with marin/marauder, he had 1 sentry and 1 zealot. He FF'd and you ran away. When the FF died, the sentry didn't have enough energy to do another one. You could have easily walked up his ramp and killed him. GG.
Game 2: You tried a marine/banshee/raven build but failed to do the ONE thing that makes that kitschy build worthwhile: drop a PDD.
Early pressure is the key. Void rays are expensive units. He spent mins and gas on the stargate, and mins, gas, and chrono on the void rays. You HAVE to make the Protoss pay for that mistake. (Also, it wouldn't hurt for you to actually scout once in awhile.)
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And how is T being forced to get a few Vikings even though it may not be optimal vs. most P openings any different than P having to go robo vs. T every game, even though Twilight Council -> Templar Archives would be better vs. most T builds?
just make 2 vikings incase he goes voidrays and then die to DT or even 4gate wich looks 100% exactly similar to void ray tech aka 3 warpgates and 2 quick gasses. Oh and when protoss went 2gate/robo you have 2 useless vikings great. I thought TL once had a great rule in brood war thats called ''think before you post'' but I suppose that dont count on the SC2 forums.
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The core idea here is that the stargate can be anywhere on the goddamn map, you as the terran have to somehow get an scv to 50 places on the map, without having it killed by a stalker, and then have the foresight to either completely blind build vikings, or happen to find the stargate through sheer scouting luck.
It doesn't take luck.
I can pressure your front with units and/or scout with a scan, if you don't have the expected arrangement of units, I either: 1) win outright, or 2) get pushed back by FF and know that something fishy is going on. I can logically deduce that, for a Protoss, something fishy is a proxy stargate. And what comes out of proxy stargates? (A mistake occurs when the scouting player sees less than what is supposed to be there and then thinks, "I must be winning.")
If I neither scout nor pressure at all, then I would expect that the other player could do something against which I can not react in time to stop. That's good game design.
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On October 09 2010 19:40 Majk wrote:
...All other 2000pt Terrans don't seem to share your problem. ..
 8th of October 2010, Alien Invasion Cup Finals. Final: aTnSocke vs mTwDeMusliM (THE top Terran in Europe). Socke wins 3-1, DeMusliM ggs the 4th game with a comment about Void Rays. Cannot remember the exact words. Just to debilitate your argument a little bit...
Edit: Socke went for 3 Void Rays on Scrap Station in the last game.
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EPT
