EPTVoid Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 9
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Zecias
United States116 Posts
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NATO
United States459 Posts
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Obscura.304
150 Posts
On October 10 2010 02:46 4Servy wrote: just make 2 vikings incase he goes voidrays and then die to DT or even 4gate wich looks 100% exactly similar to void ray tech aka 3 warpgates and 2 quick gasses. Oh and when protoss went 2gate/robo you have 2 useless vikings great. I thought TL once had a great rule in brood war thats called ''think before you post'' but I suppose that dont count on the SC2 forums. If building two vikings somehow makes you lose to DT, then you royally suck. Obviously, Vikings aren't good against any unit that Protoss really wants to build out of his Robotics Facility. There's no robotics unit that's a lynchpin to so many Protoss strategies that can be hit by anti-air. Nope. None at all. 4wpg is the only thing that might give you ANY trouble, but a bit of pressure on their ramp will clearly show 4wpg by unit count. Plus, warpgate units are so crappy vs. barracks units that you still shouldn't have any problems holding. | ||
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LynxKerr
Canada173 Posts
Anyways, to make this a constructive post, I play T and P around 1300 diamond and this strategy is becoming increasingly popular. It is very, very hard to stop. I've seen less stalkers and more zealots though.. with a few stalkers.. plus the void rays. In fact when properly executed I haven't won yet. Certainly not unbeatable, but if they're micro is at a high level the pre charged voids are a nightmare. | ||
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Marcury
Canada141 Posts
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Agh
United States896 Posts
Protip: Banshee dps is just below a fully charged void ray. Now I'm doing my best not to go off on a tangent, the main point is how signifying a single unit is more or less pointless to do unless it can be applied to EVERY scenario. Also note that 1gate, stargate into 3 warpgate is EXTREMELY fragile, in which case you didn't scout properly or apply early pressure. Obviously once 3 gateways are completed with 2 Void rays out it becomes strong. There are many appropriate responses that can be done to stop Void rays. In my opinion walling off vs toss is a very bad choice (at least depot/rax wall in) Bunker(s) at your ramp are the best option. If you're paranoid about early zealots then get a fast reaper, doing early pressure as toss is a very big gamble since the increased zealot time makes it very difficult to make it worthwhile (i.e. pay for itself) Seeing as core directly into robo is a highly preferred build that your scouting scv can actually see, that is one build you can safely cross off. Also another tip: Look for the 3rd pylon. Honestly most good T players (not saying you aren't) will sac their scouting scv to see if the 3rd pylon is placed in their base. depending on it's placement you can scan and more or less instantly know what hes going. Or if you'd prefer you can always fly your factory into his main. going out to lunch atm, may come back and edit this if I feel like it or if there is any good responses / discussion. | ||
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OreoBoi
Canada1639 Posts
Ghosts are effective against all protoss openings except maybe collosus, but even then you should be able to emp the army. Emp the void ray then hit it with marines and vikings. The same thing with stalkers. EMP takes off 50% health from a stalker and 40% health from a void ray and it's area of effect. User was warned for this post | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
And also normally people don't wait for 3 void rays (unless they proxied real close). Usually they attack at 2. 3 gates is also way too much. With good macro you can only support 2 gates pumping stalkers. A 3rd gate basically means semi- all-in and cutting probes (each void ray is 250/150 and u are probably chronoboosting it) | ||
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wreckognize
United States5 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On October 10 2010 03:08 LynxKerr wrote: avilo bro.. I hope you learned a valuable lesson today. When you post a discussion thread about a particular build and any potential unit balancing issues, silver league players will come out in droves to tell you that you're garbage and need to fix your game. This akito guy actually just broke down to you what vikings counter vs each race and how you're bad for not getting them early. Anyways, to make this a constructive post, I play T and P around 1300 diamond and this strategy is becoming increasingly popular. It is very, very hard to stop. I've seen less stalkers and more zealots though.. with a few stalkers.. plus the void rays. In fact when properly executed I haven't won yet. Certainly not unbeatable, but if they're micro is at a high level the pre charged voids are a nightmare. Thanks for this post, you made me feel better about sc2 strategy forums. It's nice to see someone who actually read the OP ^^. I personally find that it is MUCH harder to stop when they use zealots instead of stalkers. Zealots are pretty much unkillable if they are under sentry shield and even if I 3 rax and try to run by to shoot the voids, the zealots mow the marines down. What they do is 15-16 zealots, 1 sentry and 3 voids. Turrets and bunkers are a waste since they evaporate under charged void rays. I'm really thinking that voids should only be able to be charged on enemy units :\ | ||
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dahornnn
United Kingdom395 Posts
you want to break the voidray for PvT because you haven't found a way of countering it without knowing its coming? tho i do like the idea of them only being able to charge up on enemy structures/units (would make it better imo ?) User was warned for this post | ||
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Lea
Sweden120 Posts
A better suggestion is a faster charge up, but the charge also disappears much faster. This means that people will simply have to have build smart if they suspect void rays, where buildings are so far apart that the void rays will loose their charge while switching target. This does not mean that the charge disappears between target switching, and micro'ing the void rays will still give rewards to those who bother to do it (as in, being able to keep the charge up). Furthermore, the charge damage could possibly be slightly lowered whereas the non-charged damage could be slightly improved. That ways the void ray isn't useless without the charge, but it is not too powerful with it, either. It's silly when a void ray that is fully charged can easily beat 4 stalkers if not more; so the charge mechanic must certainly be adjusted but OP's suggestion would only be good from one point of view: that of a terran player being able to fend off these kind of pushes. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
I've played against the strategy 2-3 times and I'm not sure if it's broken yet, but I think it's possible. The first time I scouted void rays with my 1/1/2 build and I made vikings after my first production of banshees, but the attack hit before they came out and the pre-charged voids killed my bunker (even with SCVs repairing) in literally 3-4 seconds and everything else just insta-died. The next time I played against it I just opened into double viking and threw down two more bunkers. This countered it, but it was a huge commitment and my opponent didn't even have to do the strategy he did. I had to open blind, and even then it was moderately hard to counter. It is cheesy, but it is still very strong. It is counterable if you are sure the opponent is opening with it but I'm not sure if it's possible to know in time before it happens. Edit: I would say that it is not generally counterable given the following circumstances: a) You do not know he is going to do it b) You wall-off c) You do not do a very bio heavy build i.e. 3-rax | ||
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Catreina
United States304 Posts
On October 09 2010 23:40 sleepingdog wrote: it's called "scan" - it costs 50 OC-energy observers force protoss to sink 250/150 into getting some useful scouting information; how on earth could you argue that protoss can be much more flexible, when they are forced to waste 250/150 early just to know what units/buildings they should "actually" get? the only reason why protoss transitions into colossi is because they simply can't get robotics AND templar-tech off one base and you call this flexible.... 250/200 Robo is 200/100 Obs is 50/100 In any event, being a protoss player I have been told time and again to try fast VR vs Terrans because of how powerful it is. Most of my PvT start of as Rine/Rauder about 1:2 or 1:3 ratio, so VR would certainly mop up. However, I have been facing more Rine/Tank and Rine/Hellion/Raven/Banshee play recently, where the VR/Stalker push tends to be least effective. between auto-turret and PDD from the raven and the mass of marines, the VRs generally die and the stalkers are wtfpwned by the banshees. Granted, I am only 1300 diamond. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 10 2010 02:03 avilo wrote: You can beat it with vikings, but you have to start making them early, or latest after your first raven or banshee. If you don't...you're dead. wow, so what does that mean? right, you have to build a viking ASAP if you are not sure if he will have void rays SO WHAT? seriously, the MERE threat of cloaked banshees defines the whole build-order of protoss; you are forced to go early robo, you are forced to get an observer out; if you see starport with techlab you are forced to get ANOTHER observer, just because he "could" get cloak (most times he won't) and you are complaining about the fact that you "may" have to build a viking before banshee/raven/medivac early if you failed to do proper scouting; cry me a river you are saying it's all about build orders; EXACTLY - my basic build order in PvT is 1 gate twilight council into 3 gate +robo into templar archives; or is it? there you go, the PvT build that would be most effective because it would mean fast templar together with chargelots and immortals can NOT be executed simply because there "could" be banshees; also your most effective terran-build can NOT be executed simply because there "could" be void rays; terran need to start adapting their build orders towards the threat of early void rays; this neither means terran will just die against anything else; protoss doesn't die with 2 gate robo vs "normal play" and neither will terran when they adjust their build order; currently terran has a pretty big advantage in midgame anyways (until protoss gets colossi or HT), so just adjusting the build to be able to defend against void rays should be extremely easy; it was said you may need two bunkers - then ffs build two bunkers! you can salvage them anyways later on when they don't have void rays; again, an additional bunker is nothing compared to the disadvantage protoss has to compensate because of the threat of cloaked banshee; in all honesty, all of this is like if a protoss player constantly refused to build a robotics facility for early observer, constantly died vs early cloak banshees and THEN came here and started a thread complaining that early robotics would mean he couldn't use his "normal" build order and that would be forced to use a much more crappy one; yes terran will probably lose some of its early advantage when they fail to get a scout off because they need to adjust their builds towards the potential threat of void rays; but no they won't die vs standard play and no this is definitely not a design flaw | ||
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
I don't play Protoss so i can't really speak to all those "auto-lose" situations but getting a robo isn't really bad against anything and scouting a unit comp (marine banshee) isn't exactly the same as scouting a proxy stargate that can destroy your whole base. Proxy banshees are really annoying and will kill some probes, they CAN even win the game, but you can react to it and recover if you play well. The same is true for hellion drops, even if you don't see it coming you can still react and recover with good micro. Don't take this as me calling imbalance, I just don't like false comparisons. I'm not saying I agree with link0 that there should be a change, but you're missing his point if you are comparing proxy void rays to a battlecruiser rush (did I really read that?). I'm in no position to give link0 or Jinpo advice or argue with them about pro level balance problems. Personally, I don't wall off against Protoss anymore because of void rays. I like to open up with marine ghost lately and it feels pretty safe but skewing my comp toward heavy marines so often means that sometimes I just lose to colossi. Even still, if they go void rays and backstab me when I move out I know my base is gone and I just have to brute force his ramp and trade bases. I still don't think it's imbalanced though and even if it is I can win more games by just playing better. But link0 is talking about a whole different level of play and i'm sure as hell not going to tell him to l2p. Edit: I just wanted to agree with iEchoic that link0 is talking about a very specific build that most people here have never played or played against (myself included) so the discussion has veered off into irrelevancy-land. | ||
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
On October 10 2010 03:04 Obscura.304 wrote: If building two vikings somehow makes you lose to DT, then you royally suck. Obviously, Vikings aren't good against any unit that Protoss really wants to build out of his Robotics Facility. There's no robotics unit that's a lynchpin to so many Protoss strategies that can be hit by anti-air. Nope. None at all. 4wpg is the only thing that might give you ANY trouble, but a bit of pressure on their ramp will clearly show 4wpg by unit count. Plus, warpgate units are so crappy vs. barracks units that you still shouldn't have any problems holding. Your sarcasm is VERY clever and unique, however collosuses is the 'lynchpin' to exactly 1 protoss counter to bio, when templar tech is agruably more effective, and if they force you to build vikings, why would they then proceed to make collosus? 4wpg won't MAYBE give you trouble, it will kill you if you aren't defending with bunkers or going 3rax (and even then, proper sentry micro with FF and you still can die pretty easily). I'm going to go make a suggestion post wherever one does that regarding a forum that requires confirmation that you're Diamond and 1k points or something. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Game 2: You scout 2 gates with your SCV. So you know, uh, he isn't proxy gating you? That's about it. The next time you scout is with a hellion, just checking if he expanded. This is too late to react to anything anyway. Basically you played blind. I don't mean to sound rude because you're a better player than I, but those games don't show anything because you made such big mistakes. I can have no opinion on this strat without seeing games with better play. | ||
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chuninexam
Canada56 Posts
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
On October 09 2010 14:33 link0 wrote: That's true, but anything that's VERY DIFFICULT to scout shouldn't be so difficult to counter (ideally). I think all such builds are bad for a RTS because of the huge luck factor. Couldn't the same thing be said of cloaked banshees from terran vs. zerg? The only way that a zerg can scout a starport is if you wander a overlord in the perfect place and the overlord doesn't get picked off by marines. I could say the same thing and say that such builds such as all in banshee rushes are bad because luck is a huge factor. | ||
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