EPTTough thanks for posting the replays =) now I know how to beat terrans with this xD
Void Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 10
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metalsonic
Netherlands95 Posts
Tough thanks for posting the replays =) now I know how to beat terrans with this xD | ||
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
- lifting off your wall-rax to place addon and replace it with a bunker - get a viking out first at starport (not a bad blind move if you don't know what your opponent is doing), with bio support the uber viking range can fend off colossus/voidray. if you still don't know what he's doing after ~6-7 mins then send a scout reaper (protoss have a very hard time stopping scout reapers) or build a rax near toss base and float it over. | ||
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
The 3 gate stalker + VR play is VERY DIFFICULT to stop if you don't anticipate it coming. Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terransUser was warned for this post | ||
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
This doesn't even account for gas being more valuable. Sorry, I don't see how you can say that Void Rays are good here. | ||
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote: Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans theres a top secret pro-level trick the protoss use which is to build the tech where the terran would not normally scan, and you can't waste scans randomly trying to find it - as it may not even exist. | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
also if you push out early they wont be able to defend without revealing voidray tech | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Why exactly are marine heavy 2-3 rax openings bad? The builds ITR used against tester in GSL are perfect example's of marine heavy builds that basically work against anything toss can open with. 3 rax with fast starport reactor is a very good opening that is great against anything (can start dropping and pressuring at 8:30 incase the P expo'd and it start off with mostly marine and a few marauders (with fast stim followed by shields) so its fine against stalker pressure. Walling in simply isn't smart vs P and isn't neccesary anyways. 1 quick marauder after the first marine is enough to stop most pressure builds and if they 10pylon 10gate you can easily make a bunker near your mineral line. Perhaps if the OP explained why a blind counter sucked I can understand his point of view but the terran fast stim + medivacs build is very strong all around and counters voidray openings quite easily. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 10 2010 04:25 hoovehand wrote: theres a top secret pro-level trick the protoss use which is to build the tech where the terran would not normally scan, and you can't waste scans randomly trying to find it - as it may not even exist. very few players hide robo though - and terran should be able to see the third pylon placement before the SCV dies; so if you see the third pylon going down in a corner then there's a high chance protoss will throw down a robo there to not get it scanned; terran could...well...just scan there; if all pylons are placed close to the nexus and your scan only reveals two gates then it's almost 100% proxy void ray EDIT: the reason why you don't want to hide the robo as protoss is because there are few locations to hide it in positions where it can't be sniped from the outside or be very vulnerable to drops (remember tester vs ITR game two where tester got the robo sniped) | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
don't wall off. they can charge up on their pylon all they want, just don't let them keep the charge on you. (Keep dancing around from base to ramp). they will get frustrated and try to carry the charge on their own units. Now you've got to be smart about engaging. 3 voids is a pretty delayed rush, plus you've delayed them a little bit by kiting around. So u might be able to squeeze stim and a few more marines out in time. In summary there are 2 things that can go wrong for the void-ray user, and by recognizing it you can delay them (or even make them commit the mistake) 1. pylon runs out of hp to self-charge 2. keeping charge by targetting own units fail 3. targetting own units for too long | ||
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
On October 10 2010 04:29 sleepingdog wrote: very few players hiding robo though - and terran should be able to see the third pylon placement before the SCV dies; so if you see the third pylon going down in a corner then there's a high chance protoss will throw down a robo there to not get it scanned; terran could...well...just scan there; if all pylons are placed close to the nexus and your scan only reveals two gates then it's almost 100% proxy void ray so the protoss goes "darn the terran scouted my hidden pylon... oh well ill build my hidden tech next to it anyway" | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On October 10 2010 04:24 Darkstar_X wrote: Charged Void Ray against armored targets (best case scenario) have worse dps/cost than marines (10.4 dps/cost vs 14 dps/cost) This doesn't even account for gas being more valuable. Sorry, I don't see how you can say that Void Rays are good here. You aren't bothering to take into account that when you have that equivalent pile of marines, they will not all be shooting and they all have very low HP and die 1 by 1 during the battle. As an extreme example to illustrate this point, imagine attacking with 20 normal scvs vs attacking with 1 "super scv" that does 100 damage and has 700 HP. The super scv will be extremely powerful while the 20 scvs are easily cleaned up. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
Like if you prepare for banshee (extra queen(s), save energy for transfuse, quick overseer) you will be in a shit position for a 3 rax marine all-in. If you see reactor hellions and prepare for a marauder hellion bust, you will suck versus a hellion expand or a banshee followup. Not to say it is impossible, but it is very difficult to play against. So, I can share your sentiments, but imagine if protoss had like 4 or 5 of these and they all required different openings. | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
LinkO, here are some suggestions. I think they're pretty reasonable. 1.) If you go 3 rax, do it with the intent of breaking his base before this is a threat. In the first replay, if you'd attacked after the first force field, you would have killed his army and been fighting probes. The sentry had enough juice for one forcefield, and it used it keeping you out the first time. 2.) One your first scan, if you don't see enough buildings/pylons, get suspicious. Much like a suspicious protoss might get an observer if they see a bunker at the terran's gate (a 1/1/1 key), get a viking or two. It's not like vikings are useless - you can scout with it, use it later to kill Colossi, and they're not bad DPS if you land them. It's a precautionary measure. Ultimately, people have to handicap their "optimal" build to deal with variety in opposing players' builds. People become adept at figuring out the absolute minimum they have to do to be safe from a particular attack. I'm confident that you'll figure out a way to do it. Out of curiosity, LinkO, in the game I watched, you said that there was no way you'd send in a scouting reaper, because it was too risky. Why's that? I mean, at that point in the game, it's 1 unit - not that big a deal if you lose it. I didn't understand this bit...explain? Thanks, and hope you get comfortable dealing with this attack. -Cross | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 10 2010 04:47 Crosswind wrote: Ultimately, people have to handicap their "optimal" build to deal with variety in opposing players' builds. this the "real" question is: would terran really die against standard protoss-openings if terran opened with a BO designed to kill void ray-cheese? I highly doubt it, but this is much more what should be discussed - what would PvT look like if terran had to come up with a "anti-void-ray" standard-BO | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 10 2010 03:15 Agh wrote: Here we go again..... Protip: Banshee dps is just below a fully charged void ray. Now I'm doing my best not to go off on a tangent, the main point is how signifying a single unit is more or less pointless to do unless it can be applied to EVERY scenario. Also note that 1gate, stargate into 3 warpgate is EXTREMELY fragile, in which case you didn't scout properly or apply early pressure. Obviously once 3 gateways are completed with 2 Void rays out it becomes strong. There are many appropriate responses that can be done to stop Void rays. In my opinion walling off vs toss is a very bad choice (at least depot/rax wall in) Bunker(s) at your ramp are the best option. If you're paranoid about early zealots then get a fast reaper, doing early pressure as toss is a very big gamble since the increased zealot time makes it very difficult to make it worthwhile (i.e. pay for itself) Seeing as core directly into robo is a highly preferred build that your scouting scv can actually see, that is one build you can safely cross off. Also another tip: Look for the 3rd pylon. Honestly most good T players (not saying you aren't) will sac their scouting scv to see if the 3rd pylon is placed in their base. depending on it's placement you can scan and more or less instantly know what hes going. Or if you'd prefer you can always fly your factory into his main. going out to lunch atm, may come back and edit this if I feel like it or if there is any good responses / discussion. if you don't scout the stargate, and don't build vikings -> it's a freewin for protoss. Why are you trying to make this out as something fragile? It's no where near fragile at all. if you miss scouting the stargate on the map, and do not start building blind vikings, or weren't already on 3 rax MM...you lose the game as T. No one is arguing that void rays are fragile by themselves or that warpgates are by themselves. And people that only go warpgates go 4 warpgate, which is a completely different build than what OP is talking about. What OP is arguing is that a random proxy stargate on the map, with x3 warpgates, when unscouted is a freewin for protoss. And that it's complete build order poker in terms of countering it. It is...and unfortunately there's lots of stuff like that in sc2. Not just this build. | ||
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
On October 10 2010 04:20 Sprouter wrote: Use a scan instead of a mule. this thread is full of lazy terrans Seriously dude, like...SERIOUSLY? At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS. Scan is not maphack, no Protoss outside of your bronze league is going to show you his void rays in the middle of his base. I'm sorry to be a dick about it but this garbage is getting ridiculous. Think before you post. Other people suggesting counting pylons are being smart and productive. There are warning signs that something fishy is up, although i'm sure link0 is good enough to probably know these things. posting "SCAN MOAR TERRANS ARE SO LAZY" is the kind of trash you should take to the blizzard forums, not here. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 10 2010 04:59 Senorcuidado wrote: At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS. He actually doesn't. | ||
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VonLego
United States519 Posts
You built a Thor, sunk a ton of resources into starport tech (+ raven) and only had a few marines. You built 300 minerals worth of hellions which could have been six more marines -- you knew he had mass stalkers. What is a thor there to counter? Void rays beat thors heads up and everyone knows this. Your raven is so busy being alt+tabbed declaring on forums that a strategy is impossible to stop in all "reasonable conditions" that he didn't even PDD --- the greatest bane of stalkers in the game. Honestly it looked like you intentionally threw that second game away to try to support your own argument. Protoss: "Hey bro you should scout me... why not with a quick reaper?" Terran: "Nope can't do that" (man this bastard is building mass stalkers and voids again) Observers: "Oooook --- scan? Put an SCV in the middle of the map to see when he pushes out? Anything?" *build hellions* *sinks all money into anti-counters or literally unused units* Your argument is that the build is too difficult to stop when you don't scout it, and that it was too difficult to scout (thus the issue). That is a reasonable argument but unfortunately your replays look like comp stomps because you didn't play back at him or even scout in the least. Obviously you're a fantastic player -- There is no way you can reach 2000 w/o being a fantastic player. Part of being a fantastic player is fantastic scouting and countering -- where was this? Do you have any ladder matches where this happened, or any good games? That one oGs game linked was pretty good, but it was zealot/sentry instead of stalker. I would like to reiterate -- I'm 100% convinced you're a great player and your argument has merit, but the only competitive replay in the entire thread is a protoss player getting his ass handed to him despite doing significant damage with his opening attack. This replay took place in arguably the best map/positions possible for the VR build. | ||
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Cerion
213 Posts
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rycho
United States360 Posts
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