EPTlol my bad. I can't watch the replay yet but maybe the toss put his stargate in a stupid place. But i guess it was a poor choice of words since I wasn't trying to refer specifically to link0, the point was that terrans in general do use scan and it will very very rarely see a stargate. His comment about "terrans in this thread" was still useless and stupid and doesn't solve anything.
Void Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 11
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
lol my bad. I can't watch the replay yet but maybe the toss put his stargate in a stupid place. But i guess it was a poor choice of words since I wasn't trying to refer specifically to link0, the point was that terrans in general do use scan and it will very very rarely see a stargate. His comment about "terrans in this thread" was still useless and stupid and doesn't solve anything. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
Game 2, yea I should have put down a PDD. However, VR's lasers aren't affected by PDD and it'd be shot down in a split second. It wouldn't have mattered the slightest. Once again, my point was that the 3gate VR build is not possible to stop, but that it forces you to 1) Not wall up, ever 2) Blindly go stim bio every game with a focus on marines. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
On October 10 2010 04:59 Senorcuidado wrote: Seriously dude, like...SERIOUSLY? At a certain point I really think people should start getting banned for shit like this. Read the thread, OF COURSE HE SCANS. Scan is not maphack, no Protoss outside of your bronze league is going to show you his void rays in the middle of his base. I'm sorry to be a dick about it but this garbage is getting ridiculous. Think before you post. Take some of your own medicine. In the replays this diamond league protoss builds the void rays in the middle of his base. And the second game terran probably even knows it is coming because it is against the same guy again. | ||
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
This build is total allin and cheese. No way to transition out of it, and once scouted can be held off. However, this build is so strong if unscouted, its amazing. Definately a new allin build I will learn. With a little micro it is unbeatable, UNBEATABLE. When a terran scout this he needs 3 bunkers+ pull scv. As the OP stated, (1) this is hard to scout. I am kinda tired of reading al these people saying you need to scout better. (2) you need to do an inferior build to counter this 'blindly', like 3 rax or viking first. Walling off is really going to hurt terran; however, 10 pylon 10 gate zealot can be really annoying and I understand a terran would like to wall off because of that. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On October 10 2010 05:35 wintergt wrote: Take some of your own medicine. In the replays this diamond league protoss builds the void rays in the middle of his base. And the second game terran probably even knows it is coming because it is against the same guy again. 2nd game was a practice game. I just played as if I didn't have prior knowledge of his builds. Most top Toss players NEVER build critical tech in a predictable scan location, which is why I don't even bother scanning. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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rycho
United States360 Posts
On October 10 2010 05:37 iEchoic wrote: "Scan" isn't an answer. The stargate can be proxied, in a corner that you don't scan, or anything. At best you have 1/2 chance of finding the stargate, if even that. but you don't have to find it - there are very very few viable pvt openings, and if you don't see him: - fast expanding - opening robotics - 4-gating? i guess, although this is shitty you know to prepare for void rays. maybe there are other openings that people use once in a while, but my point is that there are no openings with 2-3 gateways on one base with no tech or expansion besides proxy void ray. this build is easy to scout. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 10 2010 05:35 link0 wrote: In game 1, he screwed up his build or else he'd have more than just a zealot and a sentry at his ramp (in which case moving up the ramp would be really risky). I think someone said it, but it bears repeating. When we FF our ramp like that, before anything can come up, it's because we're shit-scared and are buying time. If we have the units to fight we *want* you to come up so we can split you, as you say. That early FF should have been a red flag that he has no units and is up to something. It's possible we do it just as a mistake, but I think it's a good idea to assume somethings up and scan/scour the map/whatever. Once again, my point was that the 3gate VR build is not possible to stop, but that it forces you to 1) Not wall up, ever 2) Blindly go stim bio every game with a focus on marines. I'm not sure why 1 is a point? From what I've seen 10gate zealots can be dealt with without a wall. Hard, but doable. Can't think of any other purpose of a wall in the MU. I guess I don't see where the scouting issues side of this problem is. If you scan him and the robo is AWOL, there aren't exactly 100 things the P could be doing... and that's ignoring signs like the early FFing. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 10 2010 05:36 link0 wrote: 2nd game was a practice game. I just played as if I didn't have prior knowledge of his builds. Most top Toss players NEVER build critical tech in a predictable scan location, which is why I don't even bother scanning. still I really think you should carefully count the pylons until the scv dies; toss players almost never hide their robotics facility; therefore if you don't see pylons being spread out, scan and do NOT see a robotics you can be 99% sure it's proxy void ray hiding robotics is very risky because it's vulnerable to drops or being sniped from the low ground; you "should" be able to read something into it if you scan and see only 2-3 gate with way too few units On October 10 2010 05:35 link0 wrote: Once again, my point was that the 3gate VR build is not possible to stop, but that it forces you to 1) Not wall up, ever 2) Blindly go stim bio every game with a focus on marines. the real question is - does this put you behind so far you won't be able to play a standard game? nowadays we see terran with quite a nice midgame advantage; sacrificing some of this advantage to go more marine-heavy doesn't seem "so" bad for me? | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
I'm not sure why 1 is a point? From what I've seen 10gate zealots can be dealt with without a wall. Hard, but doable. Can't think of any other purpose of a wall in the MU. i don't exactly know why this is, as literally nothing a terran player has at that point in the game can possibly die to a zealot, because its 2.25 speed and melee. if a zealot tries to run around and chase a marine the marine can just run around and never get hit, and if a zealot tries to go in the mineral line and kill scvs, the terran player can just run away whatever scv gets hit by a zealot and since they are faster they should never die. walling off is pointless. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 10 2010 05:40 rycho wrote: but you don't have to find it - there are very very few viable pvt openings, and if you don't see him: - fast expanding - opening robotics - 4-gating? i guess, although this is shitty you know to prepare for void rays. maybe there are other openings that people use once in a while, but my point is that there are no openings with 2-3 gateways on one base with no tech or expansion besides proxy void ray. this build is easy to scout. Yeah, but think about how you counter this build. You: a) Don't wall off b) Open with vikings c) Bunker So let's say you scan and see nothing. You assume he's proxying a stargate and then he walks into your base with DTs. You're not walled off, you have at most one scan, and no ravens. You scan and kill one DT then insta-lose. Let's say again you scan and see nothing. This time he's got twilight council for charge/HTs. You have two worthless vikings and are way behind. I'm not saying there is NO way to scout this reliably. Just 'scan' isn't one of them. | ||
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dcberkeley
Canada844 Posts
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
On October 10 2010 05:35 wintergt wrote: Take some of your own medicine. In the replays this diamond league protoss builds the void rays in the middle of his base. And the second game terran probably even knows it is coming because it is against the same guy again. that was my fault for poor choice of words, I wasn't actually trying to refer to the game itself but in general to the fact that most Protoss won't build it in the middle of their base and "scan moar don't be lazy" is a stupid one liner that doesn't contribute anything, and if he read the thread he would know that that argument has been beaten to death already. | ||
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guyGOTgirth
United States76 Posts
This build is nearly impossible to scout, and to defend successfully you need at LEAST 3 bunkers with scv repair. At least. I will skim through the thread to see if any player of link0's caliber has a solution to this build, but like I said, as a successful Terran player 1700+ 400+ ladder wins, I can't stop this build unless I GUESS that they will do it. EDIT: I guess what I can do is go back over all my losses to this build (5-10+) and study the exact unit count the Protoss had and use my timer to deduce based on his unit count and building count that he is going a "proxy" stargate. I think that it's a pretty shit method but what else could possibly work. | ||
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Ronald_McD
Canada807 Posts
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
Katari pretty much does this 90% of the time I play him. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 10 2010 05:59 Ronald_McD wrote: I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting. And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax. Also, you usually drop the pylon and immediately start charging on it, anyway. It's not something you have more than like 6 sec warning on. | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
On October 10 2010 05:57 iEchoic wrote: Yeah, but think about how you counter this build. You: a) Don't wall off b) Open with vikings c) Bunker So let's say you scan and see nothing. You assume he's proxying a stargate and then he walks into your base with DTs. You're not walled off, you have at most one scan, and no ravens. You scan and kill one DT then insta-lose. Let's say again you scan and see nothing. This time he's got twilight council for charge/HTs. You have two worthless vikings and are way behind. I'm not saying there is NO way to scout this reliably. Just 'scan' isn't one of them. i'm not exactly sure how the timing works, but given that you can see where they place their third pylon, aren't you able to scan there + most of their main before you make two vikings? you're either going to see no tech, which means proxy or FE, robotics, stargate, or twilight council. as far as walling off goes i think the only benefit is against dt rush, but aren't dt rush and other twilight council openings like incredibly uncommon? i play protoss so i don't see what other protoss do vs terran much besides replays/vods but it seems to me that its warp gates + robotics in the vast majority of matches, and void rays or FE otherwise. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 10 2010 06:05 rycho wrote: i'm not exactly sure how the timing works, but given that you can see where they place their third pylon, aren't you able to scan there + most of their main before you make two vikings? you're either going to see no tech, which means proxy or FE, robotics, stargate, or twilight council. as far as walling off goes i think the only benefit is against dt rush, but aren't dt rush and other twilight council openings like incredibly uncommon? i play protoss so i don't see what other protoss do vs terran much besides replays/vods but it seems to me that its warp gates + robotics in the vast majority of matches, and void rays or FE otherwise. What if they spread their pylons? Going to take a 1/3 chance? What if they proxy their 3rd pylon? There's no reliable method to scan tech structures. It's just luck. | ||
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guyGOTgirth
United States76 Posts
On October 10 2010 06:03 iEchoic wrote: And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax. Interesting iEchoic, this build link0 posted is pretty much a crushing counter to the 1-1-2. I've lost probably 100% of the time doing it vs this build. What I find more interesting... is that when I do this build my hellion drop is so crushingly effective because the timing push occurs nearly RIGHT after you do the drop (so a large fraction of their forces are on the move). This also means you just put a tech lab on your starport and by the time the viking comes out all his voidrays are fully charged and it dies in literally less than 1 second. I'm not even kidding. It made me rage a few times knowing that I did a drop where I killed 20+ probes and he rolls up to my walled in base with 2 bunkers and mass marines and just shits on me even with mass repair. Void rays at an angle isolate the bunkers individually and then the stalkers do the rest... | ||
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