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My possible Solution #1: Let VRs charge up faster than they do now, but lose charge every time they switch targets.
Then wtf does charge even do besides do additional damage to high health units? A zero micro ability that does nothing but do more damage.
This way, they are a proper counter to Collossi, Thors, BCs, Carriers, etc. I think it'll be very beneficial to the stale P v P matchup where the Collossi rules all.
This is horrible game design. A units functions should never be "specifically designed to counter y unit". They need to function intrinsically different then other units in the game.
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On October 10 2010 06:06 guyGOTgirth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:03 iEchoic wrote:On October 10 2010 05:59 Ronald_McD wrote:
I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting. And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax. Interesting iEchoic, this build link0 posted is pretty much a crushing counter to the 1-1-2. I've lost probably 100% of the time doing it vs this build. What I find more interesting... is that when I do this build my hellion drop is so crushingly effective because the timing push occurs nearly RIGHT after you do the drop (so a large fraction of their forces are on the move). It made me rage a few times knowing that I did a drop where I killed 20+ probes and he rolls up to my walled in base with 2 bunkers and mass marines and just shits on me even with mass repair. Void rays at an angle isolate the bunkers individually and then the stalkers do the rest...
The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible.
I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. There is a counter, it's just that scouting is incredibly hard.
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On October 10 2010 06:10 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:06 guyGOTgirth wrote:On October 10 2010 06:03 iEchoic wrote:On October 10 2010 05:59 Ronald_McD wrote:
I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting. And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax. Interesting iEchoic, this build link0 posted is pretty much a crushing counter to the 1-1-2. I've lost probably 100% of the time doing it vs this build. What I find more interesting... is that when I do this build my hellion drop is so crushingly effective because the timing push occurs nearly RIGHT after you do the drop (so a large fraction of their forces are on the move). It made me rage a few times knowing that I did a drop where I killed 20+ probes and he rolls up to my walled in base with 2 bunkers and mass marines and just shits on me even with mass repair. Void rays at an angle isolate the bunkers individually and then the stalkers do the rest... The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible. I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. If this becomes a really big problem you can proxy your factory outside their base and lift it in.
That is true, Vikings are just so bad vs a moderately charged voidray though, you have to have them before they get to your base with marine support or its for naught. Scouting with your 3rd scan / drop probably gives you enough time to see the stargate or "deduce" that it is a stargate, but that is usually *right* when the charged voidrays hit.
Meaning, the voidrays are harassing your bunkers while 1-2 vikings are getting built.
I guess what I'm saying is the timing is so delicate that if you dont have 2 vikings waiting behind your bunkers you're dead.
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On October 09 2010 14:33 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:27 arterian wrote:
There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming. That's true, but anything that's VERY DIFFICULT to scout shouldn't be so difficult to counter (ideally). I think all such builds are bad for a RTS because of the huge luck factor.
It's funny, cuz all terran builds are VERY DIFFICULT to scout due to them having a marine soon to kill off the probe and a wall to negate any scouting before the observer or the phoenixes. Banshees, drops, etc. can be hard to counter if you didn't know it was coming, so it also relies on luck.
Terran have a damn scan, can't you use it sometimes instead of wanting to be greedy and want these 300 extra minerals? Come on, they are the last race that can complain about the lack of scouting abilities.
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On October 10 2010 06:17 PatouPower wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:33 link0 wrote:On October 09 2010 14:27 arterian wrote:
There are a lot of builds all 3 races can't counter if they don't know they're coming. That's true, but anything that's VERY DIFFICULT to scout shouldn't be so difficult to counter (ideally). I think all such builds are bad for a RTS because of the huge luck factor. It's funny, cuz all terran builds are VERY DIFFICULT to scout due to them having a marine soon to kill off the probe and a wall to negate any scouting before the observer or the phoenixes. Banshees, drops, etc. can be hard to counter if you didn't know it was coming, so it also relies on luck. Terran have a damn scan, can't you use it sometimes instead of wanting to be greedy and want these 300 extra minerals? Come on, they are the last race that can complain about the lack of scouting abilities.
Terran builds are difficult to scout for ~ the first 6 minutes of the game clock. Then overseers/lings and observers > than terran scouting. IMO at least.
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What is the void ray damage output anyway and how do upgrades affect it? Does it just go like x2, x3 (i.e. 6 at start, then 12, then 18?)? Or...?
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Scan should almost never be relied on to search for tech earlygame. It is a bad practice.
Relying on something that is inherently luck, easily countered (by hiding or proxying buildings) and not reliable to actually scout what you need to see is not a good idea. If you really need scouting info, you should work a reaper or a proxy rax/factory into your build.
Everyone saying "just scan" is giving really shitty advice. Don't scan for tech early into the game, you should NEVER incorporate that early into your build.
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I have won many game charging my v rays on destruct rocks. This seems to be a viable strategy on these certain maps and only on those maps. 3 charged void rays just eat rines for breakfast. I try not to go air all the time since all the games don't macro up like higher level games and you have more "all in" (I HATE to call them that but lets us common terms) builds. Perhaps I play toss and don't think it is too broken. I really hate tanks though. haha just thought I'd add that.
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On October 10 2010 06:25 iEchoic wrote:
Scan should almost never be relied on to search for tech earlygame. It is a bad practice.
People shouldn't make such categorical statements unless they have some serious backing. Plenty of Terran pros scan, so it clearly isn't that simple.
Relying on something that is inherently luck, easily countered (by hiding or proxying buildings) and not reliable to actually scout what you need to see is not a good idea. If you really need scouting info, you should work a reaper or a proxy rax/factory into your build.
A scan still tells you they're doing something unusual, even if the tech is hidden. It's more information than you had before. Whether it's worth it is a discussion to be had, but it is most certainly not useless.
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On October 10 2010 06:34 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:25 iEchoic wrote:
Scan should almost never be relied on to search for tech earlygame. It is a bad practice.
People shouldn't make such categorical statements unless they have some serious backing. Plenty of Terran pros scan, so it clearly isn't that simple. Show nested quote +
Relying on something that is inherently luck, easily countered (by hiding or proxying buildings) and not reliable to actually scout what you need to see is not a good idea. If you really need scouting info, you should work a reaper or a proxy rax/factory into your build.
A scan still tells you they're doing something unusual, even if the tech is hidden. It's more information than you had before. Whether it's worth it is a discussion to be had, but it is most certainly not useless.
What terran pros work a scan into their build? People in this thread are suggesting you should always scan after their factory. I'm not aware of a single terran pro who does this.
I said almost never, not never. There are some cases where scanning is appropriate but working an early unconditional scan into your build is not a good idea.
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On October 10 2010 06:03 Masq wrote:
Definitely a hard build to stop TvP.
Katari pretty much does this 90% of the time I play him.
Yep, I remember playing katari, that's literally the only build he ever did. hilarious.
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On October 10 2010 06:37 iEchoic wrote:
What terran pros work a scan into their build? People in this thread are suggesting you should always scan after their factory. I'm not aware of a single terran pro who does this.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/1943
Just looked at random games. That was the second one :>
OgsGon used fact scout to spot the ray against Iron, would that not work well too?
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On October 10 2010 06:10 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:06 guyGOTgirth wrote:On October 10 2010 06:03 iEchoic wrote:On October 10 2010 05:59 Ronald_McD wrote:
I think good Terrans should be able to roll out of their base and scout a couple pylons proxied outside of your base. If the pylons are close enough for the voidrays to carry the charge over to your base, I think they wouldn't be very hard to spot if you're actively scouting. And? Once you find the pylon you won't be able to do anything, unless you open heavy bio. He will have a bigger army than you. The problem is defending it when not opening something bad like 3rax. Interesting iEchoic, this build link0 posted is pretty much a crushing counter to the 1-1-2. I've lost probably 100% of the time doing it vs this build. What I find more interesting... is that when I do this build my hellion drop is so crushingly effective because the timing push occurs nearly RIGHT after you do the drop (so a large fraction of their forces are on the move). It made me rage a few times knowing that I did a drop where I killed 20+ probes and he rolls up to my walled in base with 2 bunkers and mass marines and just shits on me even with mass repair. Void rays at an angle isolate the bunkers individually and then the stalkers do the rest... The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible. I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. There is a counter, it's just that scouting is incredibly hard.
Then adjust your opening build to always assume that he will go VR's. It doesn't hurt the Terran to have 2 vikings lying around and could also be transformed to harrass the probe line. Just like how Terran had to adjust their build in TvZ broodwar to assume mutas would come early-mid game.
Do not say Scan can't solve your problem, the Stargate might be placed elsewhere on the map, but you can scan his main and see how he lacks certain tech tree at a certain timing, and that will tell you. Especially because Protoss doesn't have numerous valid openings like T, he will have only a few choices to open up
This thread title using the word ' flaw ' already shows how biased the OP is. This is another whine thread, it should be closed.
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You can always tell a Stargate build by its lack of units. No luck involved.
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Scan and send an scv or marine around the map like the AI does to make sure there isn't any hidden nonsense. I don't usually see protoss willing to build outside there base area unless it's a proxy rush. I do agree that there is no real counter for charged void rays but if you nerf the void rays then they will become that unit that no one will want to invest in.
Most of these complaints on the forums about IMBA units can be solved by better scouting.
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This was fitting. First ladder game after being in this post: My opponent is 1400, I'm 1600+
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156144.jpg)
I went for a 1-1-2 variation without the hellion harass and walled in with depot/depot bunker instead of a rax. I use my first 3 OCC energy on mules and scout with a factory -- by the time I see the rays they are at my base.
Also due to positioning my initial scouting SCV is killed by stalkers at ramp.
To be fair, I am caught out of position initially but in terms of cost / units lost we are even. I also have 2 banshees that are 1/2 way through production that I do not cancel, though I don't believe that would have made a difference.
We have the same amount of money "spent" as well as the same "income." IE if I threw in an arbitrary scan on his main (his stargate was built off to the side and probably would have missed it) I would have been ~ - 300 spending in the hole.
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On October 10 2010 06:10 iEchoic wrote:
The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible.
I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. There is a counter, it's just that scouting is incredibly hard.
tbh void ray all-in is designed to kill 1/1/1, and THIS is completely ok; 1/1/1 is probably the greediest opening tech-wise there is, if you go for it you have to live with losing against void rays once in a while;
I sometimes go nexus first vs fast expanding zergs, when they just go mass baneling/zergs from two hatch not droning up I'm dead; yeah well, that's life; no need for discussing this, if somebody goes 1/1/1 he got it coming
concerning your hellion-drop build: I also firmly believe that fast void rays are a counter to your build; the thing is, when I plan on going void rays and see a 1/1 opening, I know I will win against 1/1/1 that are going into more baracks easily because there will be way too few marines;
so I have to account for a fast 2nd starport and for your hellion-drop; which means I play it "kiwikaki-style" and wall off my mineral-line; I have never lost with fast void rays vs hellion-play because your vikings just come too late; I'm in no position to write this because you are a much better player than I am, but if you are not sure if he goes void rays, I would screw any plans about hellion-dropping - the worst that will happen is that you will just have more banshees earlier; still not that bad
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On October 10 2010 07:12 guyGOTgirth wrote:
There's not even any point in scouting that late. He made all his tech choices eons before your fact got to his base.
Why build the depots there? IMO just the bunker then add the depots if you smell DTs.
Mostly it was the non-existent scouting until it was way too late though.
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On October 10 2010 07:12 guyGOTgirth wrote:
Also due to positioning my initial scouting SCV is killed by stalkers at ramp.
man, you scouted at 19......19!
also you had no stim; you need stim, absolutely, absolutely necessary
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On October 10 2010 07:17 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 06:10 iEchoic wrote:
The 1/1/2 is actually better off than the 1/1/1 (because you have 2 ports so you can make 2 vikings instead of 1 immediately). But yeah, scouting it is the problem for sure. As for how you'd counter this with 1/1/1, I have no idea. Probably impossible.
I've countered the build before because I suspected it was coming and opened 2 vikings. There is a counter, it's just that scouting is incredibly hard. tbh void ray all-in is designed to kill 1/1/1, and THIS is completely ok; 1/1/1 is probably the greediest opening tech-wise there is, if you go for it you have to live with losing against void rays once in a while; I sometimes go nexus first vs fast expanding zergs, when they just go mass baneling/zergs from two hatch not droning up I'm dead; yeah well, that's life; no need for discussing this, if somebody goes 1/1/1 he got it coming concerning your hellion-drop build: I also firmly believe that fast void rays are a counter to your build; the thing is, when I plan on going void rays and see a 1/1 opening, I know I will win against 1/1/1 that are going into more baracks easily because there will be way too few marines; so I have to account for a fast 2nd starport and for your hellion-drop; which means I play it "kiwikaki-style" and wall off my mineral-line; I have never lost with fast void rays vs hellion-play because your vikings just come too late; I'm in no position to write this because you are a much better player than I am, but if you are not sure if he goes void rays, I would screw any plans about hellion-dropping - the worst that will happen is that you will just have more banshees earlier; still not that bad
Normal void openings are easy to counter for me, and people have tried it on me at least 25-30 times to no success. You just need to keep the voids off you with your 8 marines until you get vikings out and you win. You probably fight people with 4 marines instead of 8 because 90% of the people who do my build do the 2nd refinery after the factory instead of the starport, leaving them with not enough minerals for their marines.
This pylon-at-the-front-gate is a completely different monster though, and requires a lot bigger reaction to counter. You basically have to open 2x viking and you need to throw down more bunkers.
Unfortunately I didn't save the replay of me beating this pylon-charge void ray, but I basically opened 2x vikings and threw down 2 more bunkers behind my wall and brought like 15 scvs to repair. Then a cloaked banshee won it.
The thing is the required response is really drastic and if you don't start doing it immediately there is no way to stop it.
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EPT
