EPTVoid Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 13
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
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guyGOTgirth
United States76 Posts
On October 10 2010 07:26 sleepingdog wrote: man, you scouted at 19......19! also you had no stim; you need stim, absolutely, absolutely necessary Hehe fair enough =p... with that said I don't think stim or scouting at (2:15 vs 3:30) would have changed the outcome as played. do you? | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 10 2010 07:27 iEchoic wrote: This pylon-at-the-front-gate is a completely different monster though, and requires a lot bigger reaction to counter. You basically have to open 2x viking and you need to throw down more bunkers. Unfortunately I didn't save the replay of me beating this pylon-charge void ray, but I basically opened 2x vikings and threw down 2 more bunkers behind my wall and brought like 15 scvs to repair. Then a cloaked banshee won it. of course I was talking about pre-charged void rays, anything else isn't really worth discussing imo dunno about the downsides, but I once lost vs 1/1/1 into more baracks on delta quadrant where the terran just didn't build ANYTHING anywhere near the ramp; I could've proxied a pylon at his ramp IN his main without him seeing it lol; I ended up losing my charge and got owned; we saw this new building-structure too in IEM PvT today, maybe just build your base very tight will be the answer? meaning tight enough to also allow only small entrances for DTs and scv-pulls, kinda the same way P walls vs hellion-harass shakuras is a completely different chapter though, here I think void rays ARE imbalanced; P can charge up on the rocks and won't lose the charge while going to the gas; I can hit at your fron while my void rays are loose in your back....shouldn't be possible on balanced maps On October 10 2010 07:32 guyGOTgirth wrote: Hehe fair enough =p... with that said I don't think stim or scouting at (2:15 vs 3:30) would have changed the outcome as played. do you? yeah you're right, not really - your positioning was just very, very unlucky; that's the jackpot for us P-players when playing void rays, getting marines outside of the base stuck against only one force field but you really need the tech-lab on the first baracks earlier for stim | ||
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Delarchon
Finland132 Posts
I think it's one of the most annoying things to see one flying around in my base knowing that terran doesn't have to scan and can spend everything on mules. And if this is a scouting problem for Terran is the only solution to this another nerf to the protoss unit? | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
The thing is the required response is really drastic and if you don't start doing it immediately there is no way to stop it. iEchoic...is this particularly different from most all-ins? 6 rax Marines requires a similar "I HAVE TO DO THIS NOW" approach. I think, eventually, people will get comfortable dealing with this. And that, in the meanwhile, there will be a great deal of complaining on the strategy forums. Much like there was for the 4-gate, the 3-rax, and a half-dozen other strats of the week. -Cross | ||
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LynxKerr
Canada173 Posts
Edit: I should note, you'll have to wait to watch it because it JUST happened. | ||
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huyNh
Canada366 Posts
I've been 3 gate VR'd plenty of times and vikings are out of the question. 3 void rays that come into your base PRE-charged will shred vikings in half a second. The only way to stop those 3 VRs accompained by mass stalkers is a ton of marine with a few marauders for stalkers. And the only way to get sufficient amount of bio is to open 3 rax or open 2/1/1 with a heavier marine composition. 1/1/1 would be instant suicide. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Go 2/1/1 standard then, or go 1/1/1 and accept it can die to something. Most BOs can. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
The final charge-up has three stacks. Each stack is added when the Void Ray focuses a single target for 3 seconds. A stack is lost each time the Void Ray switches targets. Once the stacks fall off, the Void Ray's beam returns to normal. So basically you can charge up on a big target, switch to kill two of anything, but then you have to target something that has enough HP to reapply these stacks. | ||
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megalopsy
Belgium4 Posts
* edit- would the void ray loose their charge? | ||
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itsben
435 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 10 2010 08:30 megalopsy wrote: If you open 111 you could maybe get 1 raven and use PDD? * edit- would the void ray loose their charge? Void ray attacks aren't stopped or affected in any way by PDD. 1/1/1 would easily stop this, however, due to the ease of which Terran can just get tanks and vikings to counter stalkers and VRs. The only issue with 1/1/1 is that it allows a competent P to easily FE with no fear of any real retribution. Personally, I think opening with a fast fac with hellion would be ideal. The factory would be useful for further tech or tanks anyways and a fast hellion would be really nice for scouting. Scan the P's base and use hellion to scout the rest of the map. I don't imagine it to be too difficult to stop. I personally think a 5-6 rax marine cheese is harder to stop for P than this 3gate VR build for T. | ||
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Kwaa
Sweden91 Posts
The Protoss will need early double gas, few gas costly units, and fewer gateways, which quite frankly is more then enough to realise that something fishy is going on. Not to mention the fact that there are several Terran strategies which can't be stopped unless anticipated/scouted. | ||
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PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
Not saying that it would counter this build at all, but I'd like to throw that out there in the discussion to those people saying it's absolutely worthless (it may still be, but whatever). | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
As a protoss player i think that a voidray being able to charge up on rocks/own buildings should be removed from the game. It's stupid. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 10 2010 08:04 Crosswind wrote: iEchoic...is this particularly different from most all-ins? 6 rax Marines requires a similar "I HAVE TO DO THIS NOW" approach. I think, eventually, people will get comfortable dealing with this. And that, in the meanwhile, there will be a great deal of complaining on the strategy forums. Much like there was for the 4-gate, the 3-rax, and a half-dozen other strats of the week. -Cross You're right except for one thing, 5-6 rax marines are wayyyyyy easier to scout and take less commitment to stop. No gas is one early tipoff and hiding 5-6 raxes is nearly impossible. From the time the stargate goes up anywhere on the map you have about 1:00 to scout it until it's too late. I don't believe there's any early tipoff like no gas, and I also don't think you can hide 5-6 rax from a reaper, a scan, or literally anything, whereas a stargate is easy to hide. I'm not saying the strategy is necessarily broken, although I'm not sure yet. I'm just saying this strategy is a hell of a lot more difficult to stop than people are giving it credit for. This thing is completely unique and is unlike other allins. | ||
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
On October 10 2010 09:23 iEchoic wrote: You're right except for one thing, 5-6 rax marines are wayyyyyy easier to scout and take less commitment to stop. No gas is one early tipoff and hiding 5-6 raxes is nearly impossible. From the time the stargate goes up anywhere on the map you have about 1:00 to scout it until it's too late. I don't believe there's any early tipoff like no gas, and I also don't think you can hide 5-6 rax from a reaper, a scan, or literally anything, whereas a stargate is easy. I'm not saying the strategy is necessarily broken, although I'm not sure yet. I'm just saying this strategy is a hell of a lot more difficult to stop than people are giving it credit for. This thing is completely unique and is unlike other allins. So basically it's the Protoss equivalent of 1/1/2 that you designed? A lot of Terrans abuse it to 1500+ on ladder, but then it becomes exceedingly difficult to pull off against higher players. Now Protoss players have a build they can abuse to 2000 on the ladder (or until an optimal counter is found). Except your 1/1/2 build is labeled as a "strong build" while 3 gate star is labeled as a "design flaw." I think Terran players need to break the mentality that they're the race that can do whatever they want while every other race has to adapt. I just find it amusing that when the 1/1/2 build became popular, Protoss players did complain about banshees, but also tried to figure ways to overcome the build. But the OP takes a different route and decides that Void Rays are flawed in design and that the game needs to be changed. | ||
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Delarchon
Finland132 Posts
But i do think they put those rocks too close to the mains and naturals on some maps. Especially on these new two maps. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 10 2010 09:33 MayorITC wrote: So basically it's the Protoss equivalent of 1/1/2 that you designed? A lot of Terrans abuse it to 1500+ on ladder, but then it becomes exceedingly difficult to pull off against higher players. Now Protoss players have a build they can abuse to 2000 on the ladder (or until an optimal counter is found). Except your 1/1/2 build is labeled as a "strong build" while 3 gate star is labeled as a "design flaw." I think Terran players need to break the mentality that they're the race that can do whatever they want while every other race has to adapt. That's the stupidest analogy I've ever read on these forums, 1/1/2 isn't all in at all and it was actually started by top korean players and used by pros like TLO, and it continues to work fine against high-level players. How you can compare a stable opening like 1/1/2 to an all-in void ray rush is completely beyond me. I'm done with this thread, these replies are getting way too stupid. | ||
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PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
On October 10 2010 10:06 iEchoic wrote: That's the stupidest analogy I've ever read on these forums, 1/1/2 isn't all in at all and it was actually started by top korean players and used by pros like TLO, and it continues to work fine against high-level players. How you can compare a stable opening like 1/1/2 to an all-in void ray rush is completely beyond me. I'm done with this thread, these replies are getting way too stupid. plz don't leave :< some of us actually think critically and appreciate very good players' input. Do you have any replays from games you've played against this build? Do you think it's possible to develop a realistically "safe" strategy against this build without falling hopelessly behind against a p if he doesn't end up using it? | ||
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