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Let me get this straight: You're proposing nerfing or changing Void Ray mechanics because there is a high tier strategy out there which is difficult to stop if not scouted for? Don't you think that's a bit insane? That's pretty close to a protoss being upset about losing to a 7 pool because he didn't send a scout at all.
I think I have a much better solution to your dilemma:
Get 1 viking, have it run around the ENTIRE map if you're that paranoid over an incredibly obscure protoss strategy, and if you see the symptoms that would make you believe "he is massing stalkers and void rays", maybe throwing down some missile turrets and a 15 marauders or so wouldn't kill you. Also: killing his proxy pylon would nearly completely destroy the strategy. At that point, his air tech is useless, and all you need is some marines to counterpush.
I'll be honest, I'm very surprised a 2k point diamond terran player would come to this bold conclusion about void rays based on the premises that he didn't scout the opponents strategy until it was ALMOST fatal and even then you've still found ways to counter it without preparation.
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On October 10 2010 14:05 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Let me get this straight: You're proposing nerfing or changing Void Ray mechanics because there is a high tier strategy out there which is difficult to stop if not scouted for? Don't you think that's a bit insane? That's pretty close to a protoss being upset about losing to a 7 pool because he didn't send a scout at all.
I think I have a much better solution to your dilemma:
Get 1 viking, have it run around the ENTIRE map if you're that paranoid over an incredibly obscure protoss strategy, and if you see the symptoms that would make you believe "he is massing stalkers and void rays", maybe throwing down some missile turrets and a 15 marauders or so wouldn't kill you. Also: killing his proxy pylon would nearly completely destroy the strategy. At that point, his air tech is useless, and all you need is some marines to counterpush.
I'll be honest, I'm very surprised a 2k point diamond terran player would come to this bold conclusion about void rays based on the premises that he didn't scout the opponents strategy until it was ALMOST fatal and even then you've still found ways to counter it without preparation.
Do you not read the thread at all? Are you mentally challenged? Do you not understand the basic concepts of the difficulty of defending against this build? How are you going to have time to build a viking and run it around the entire map before they are already killing your entire base/army? Do you not understand by going viking first you are crippling yourself against other p builds?
I can see why avilo and iechoic easily got fed up here, you people are retarded.
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Watching the replays posted this definitely seems like a strong strategy, and obviously the answer isn't just wasting a scan. However, looking at this from the Protoss side I don't see what the big deal is. How is this any different than Cloaked Banshee's from Terran? The reason Robo tech is considered standard play in PvT is exactly because the Protoss player is blind countering cloaked Banshee's with the observer, and then just making the most of what he has to work with under that constraint. If this Voidray build is really that scary, then I'm pretty confident that Terran players will adapt just like Protoss players already have.
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On October 10 2010 14:14 Vaporak wrote:
Watching the replays posted this definitely seems like a strong strategy, and obviously the answer isn't just wasting a scan. However, looking at this from the Protoss side I don't see what the big deal is. How is this any different than Cloaked Banshee's from Terran? The reason Robo tech is considered standard play in PvT is exactly because the Protoss player is blind countering cloaked Banshee's with the observer, and then just making the most of what he has to work with under that constraint. If this Voidray build is really that scary, then I'm pretty confident that Terran players will adapt just like Protoss players already have.
The protoss can counter cloaked banshees without significantly affecting the rest of the game. The terran will be much more behind in blindly countering this build.
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Void Rays should get OWNED by Marines but do pretty decently against Vikings-- not quite cost-effective, but perhaps trading lives for cost (a net win for the Terran, since Vikings are easier/faster to produce).
This way, Void Rays, while getting owned in a straight fight by marines, at least force the marines to stay in the base and are actually more mobile than their counters (which, as of right now, is the Viking).
My two cents. Easiest way to go about this is to add a +armored to charge level 2, and add a charge reduction on target-switching.
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...Well, hopefully I won't get flamed unnecessarily again by you Projectile but I must ask: what is the problem with a strategy that requires a significant change of pace and strategy for the Terran?
I'll go back to my example about the 7 pool. Do you have to play much differently against an opponent who is cheesing? Yes. Very much so. You don't go 15 hatch 16 pool when you see a 7 pool. You retaliate. And it completely changes the games pace. That doesn't make the strategy unfair, it's just you being smart and reacting to what you scout.
No doubt, any hidden tech and proxy pylons will cause major problems for any race. Lord knows if outside my natural expo (as zerg) I didn't know my opponent had a decent stalker and charged void ray force, I'd probably lose. Likewise: if I were protoss without a forge or a robo and I didn't see a dark shrine, I'd probably be caught with my pants on the ground too.
But, rather than inciting even more rage within you (which P.S. Is both unnecessary and just plain silly because obviously I read through this thread) I'll say this: The game hasn't been out very long, very few people are at the same skill level as the op, and therefore very few people have "tapped into the realm" of this play for a Terran to learn how to effectively adapt to this strategy. Personally: I think it's great that terrans have a little more necessary reaction based play in order to win. But either way, this is way to unrefined for it to cause a serious threat in balance strong enough that the entire unit should be changed, thus effecting much lower levels of playing dramatically.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 13:29 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 10:25 iaguz wrote:
Agreed with the 'scan is not the answer' argument. Picture the scene...
It is steppes of war. You have scouted about the Protoss base, and there are pylons all over, and he's taken both his gas. There are too many potential areas to place tech for you to catch in a single scan. You're still concerned that the toss might pull some shit, so you scan anyway, and you see 2 gateways.
2 gateways.
Ok, genius's, fucking tell me how that helps? I can totally use that information to tell that he has :
1) expanded
2) doing a shitty variation of a 4gate (most 4gates are a one-gas build, but some people are weird)
3) 1/2/3 gate robo.
4) stargate tech, either in his base or proxied somewhere
5) DT tech, either in his base or (most likely) proxied somewhere. This does happen a LOT on the ladder, and whilst early pressure builds do kill particularly greedy protosses that try this shit, it's still an infuriating build.
oh wait, I fucking can't, beacuse scan is a very expensive and risky move to try and scout the protoss!
Regular Void ray play is, as mentioned by eocheic, countered by having a few marines handy (reactor Rax-ftw!) and also by having a very tight base layout so the voidray has to go quite deep into your base to shoot stuff. So much easier to kill that way (especially if you have some stim ready!). Void ray busts I have not seen very much of on ladder to be able to comment about, I'll admit that, but it is rather obnoxious that a protoss can charge up on neutral buildings like rocks and mengsk statues.
Ugh>< There's more then one way to scout. You could do it the old fashioned way but that might require APM. You could really just replace the words "void ray" with "cloaked banshee" and the post would be identical. Scout better, learn to deal with surprises, practice more. Too many terrans go for a full on mass marauder build against P and assume they've already countered the collosi. 
Yes, I know there is 'more then one way to scout'. My point is that scan is a huge gamble, and what I outlined above is a huge reason why terrans don't think "well, just scan them, lol" is an acceptable counterargument to 'this all-in is incredibly nasty to deal with whilst doing standard play' which is the point of the OP.
Also, no halfway decent terran goes mass marauder vs P. we all make sure one of them raxes has a reactor on it. Problem is that charged voids are ridiculously strong against marines, the only real counter I'll have whilst doing standard play.
+ Show Spoiler +How is this any different than in TvX, where T can produce cloaked banshees that you cannot really scout. Hell, even when you scout the terran base, 10s after you scout he can swap his addons around and be producing different units.
It's actually not too hard to suspect when a T is rushing cloaked banshees, or perhaps going for a 1/1/2 opening, as P. And if he's not, you should get the robo anyway. It's soooooo good.
Check his front/early unit composition. Is at least one of those units a marauder? If so, how many? Did your scout get slowed when it got hit? Was there a bunker with marines in it?
That's basically it. You can notice a lot about what a Terran is doing just be using a probe like that. You'll probably lose the probe, but it's 50 minerals well spent imo. Good watchtower control helps an awful lot too (don't be afraid to use that first chronoboosted stalker to do this!) so you can see any early 1/3 rax move out. If you see a marauder, that usually means infantry upgrades and almost (like, have you ever really seen that!?) never means a cloaked banshee. If it does mean a cloaked banshee then you should easily be able to spot it with your observer. No biggee.
Ok, I'm oversimplifying it a bit, but you get what I mean. Conversely, to get a good reading of what the P's cyber core tech was I need to physically see it. I cannot infer anything until I see the building or anything that spewed out of the building, and it could be anywhere!
The stargate could be fucken' ANYWHERE, and no amount of good scouting will ENSURE I see it. Note that word ensure. Yes, some of the time when I run my SCV around the map, I might see the proxy. Perhaps. Maybe I'll be able to slip a reaper in there and take a look around. Maybe my scan will actually see the stargate this time! Who knows! The point is that T's are upset with void ray busts because it's very difficult to spot, and when not spotted (or if it gets spotted too late) then it can be extremely difficult to play against.
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On October 10 2010 14:17 PROJECTILE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 14:14 Vaporak wrote:
Watching the replays posted this definitely seems like a strong strategy, and obviously the answer isn't just wasting a scan. However, looking at this from the Protoss side I don't see what the big deal is. How is this any different than Cloaked Banshee's from Terran? The reason Robo tech is considered standard play in PvT is exactly because the Protoss player is blind countering cloaked Banshee's with the observer, and then just making the most of what he has to work with under that constraint. If this Voidray build is really that scary, then I'm pretty confident that Terran players will adapt just like Protoss players already have. The protoss can counter cloaked banshees without significantly affecting the rest of the game. The terran will be much more behind in blindly countering this build.
Stimmed marines handle a fully charged ray very easily. You only need like 6.
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On October 10 2010 14:36 iaguz wrote:+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 13:29 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 10:25 iaguz wrote:
Agreed with the 'scan is not the answer' argument. Picture the scene...
It is steppes of war. You have scouted about the Protoss base, and there are pylons all over, and he's taken both his gas. There are too many potential areas to place tech for you to catch in a single scan. You're still concerned that the toss might pull some shit, so you scan anyway, and you see 2 gateways.
2 gateways.
Ok, genius's, fucking tell me how that helps? I can totally use that information to tell that he has :
1) expanded
2) doing a shitty variation of a 4gate (most 4gates are a one-gas build, but some people are weird)
3) 1/2/3 gate robo.
4) stargate tech, either in his base or proxied somewhere
5) DT tech, either in his base or (most likely) proxied somewhere. This does happen a LOT on the ladder, and whilst early pressure builds do kill particularly greedy protosses that try this shit, it's still an infuriating build.
oh wait, I fucking can't, beacuse scan is a very expensive and risky move to try and scout the protoss!
Regular Void ray play is, as mentioned by eocheic, countered by having a few marines handy (reactor Rax-ftw!) and also by having a very tight base layout so the voidray has to go quite deep into your base to shoot stuff. So much easier to kill that way (especially if you have some stim ready!). Void ray busts I have not seen very much of on ladder to be able to comment about, I'll admit that, but it is rather obnoxious that a protoss can charge up on neutral buildings like rocks and mengsk statues.
Ugh>< There's more then one way to scout. You could do it the old fashioned way but that might require APM. You could really just replace the words "void ray" with "cloaked banshee" and the post would be identical. Scout better, learn to deal with surprises, practice more. Too many terrans go for a full on mass marauder build against P and assume they've already countered the collosi. Yes, I know there is 'more then one way to scout'. My point is that scan is a huge gamble, and what I outlined above is a huge reason why terrans don't think "well, just scan them, lol" is an acceptable counterargument to 'this all-in is incredibly nasty to deal with whilst doing standard play' which is the point of the OP. Also, no halfway decent terran goes mass marauder vs P. we all make sure one of them raxes has a reactor on it. Problem is that charged voids are ridiculously strong against marines, the only real counter I'll have whilst doing standard play. + Show Spoiler +How is this any different than in TvX, where T can produce cloaked banshees that you cannot really scout. Hell, even when you scout the terran base, 10s after you scout he can swap his addons around and be producing different units. It's actually not too hard to suspect when a T is rushing cloaked banshees, or perhaps going for a 1/1/2 opening, as P. And if he's not, you should get the robo anyway. It's soooooo good. Check his front/early unit composition. Is at least one of those units a marauder? If so, how many? Did your scout get slowed when it got hit? Was there a bunker with marines in it? That's basically it. You can notice a lot about what a Terran is doing just be using a probe like that. You'll probably lose the probe, but it's 50 minerals well spent imo. Good watchtower control helps an awful lot too (don't be afraid to use that first chronoboosted stalker to do this!) so you can see any early 1/3 rax move out. If you see a marauder, that usually means infantry upgrades and almost (like, have you ever really seen that!?) never means a cloaked banshee. If it does mean a cloaked banshee then you should easily be able to spot it with your observer. No biggee. Ok, I'm oversimplifying it a bit, but you get what I mean. Conversely, to get a good reading of what the P's cyber core tech was I need to physically see it. I cannot infer anything until I see the building or anything that spewed out of the building, and it could be anywhere! The stargate could be fucken' ANYWHERE, and no amount of good scouting will ENSURE I see it. Note that word ensure. Yes, some of the time when I run my SCV around the map, I might see the proxy. Perhaps. Maybe I'll be able to slip a reaper in there and take a look around. Maybe my scan will actually see the stargate this time! Who knows! The point is that T's are upset with void ray busts because it's very difficult to spot, and when not spotted (or if it gets spotted too late) then it can be extremely difficult to play against.
Haha, this post amused me. Yes, it's painfully obvious when the terran is going banshees or any other build based solely on probe scouting up the ramp in the early game. However, terrans cannot infer anything about a 3gate stalker-void ray all-in based on scouting the protoss ramp. It could be *anything* -- there's just no way to know!
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Dude, really the matchup is pretty even... If you get ghosts, mostly marines, and a few marauders, you will handle most everythign that P can throw at you at the point of the game the 3gate/Stargate comes out... VRs have exactly 100 shields, and only 150 hit points and 0 armor... As a P player who uses this build, it is really, really dependent on not being scouted. Sure it seems powerful if you are surprised by it, but it is super flimsy and is more of a gamble for the P player than doing another, more solid build involving macro.
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On October 10 2010 14:30 Jeffbelittle wrote:
...Well, hopefully I won't get flamed unnecessarily again by you Projectile but I must ask: what is the problem with a strategy that requires a significant change of pace and strategy for the Terran?
I'll go back to my example about the 7 pool. Do you have to play much differently against an opponent who is cheesing? Yes. Very much so. You don't go 15 hatch 16 pool when you see a 7 pool. You retaliate. And it completely changes the games pace. That doesn't make the strategy unfair, it's just you being smart and reacting to what you scout.
No doubt, any hidden tech and proxy pylons will cause major problems for any race. Lord knows if outside my natural expo (as zerg) I didn't know my opponent had a decent stalker and charged void ray force, I'd probably lose. Likewise: if I were protoss without a forge or a robo and I didn't see a dark shrine, I'd probably be caught with my pants on the ground too.
But, rather than inciting even more rage within you (which P.S. Is both unnecessary and just plain silly because obviously I read through this thread) I'll say this: The game hasn't been out very long, very few people are at the same skill level as the op, and therefore very few people have "tapped into the realm" of this play for a Terran to learn how to effectively adapt to this strategy. Personally: I think it's great that terrans have a little more necessary reaction based play in order to win. But either way, this is way to unrefined for it to cause a serious threat in balance strong enough that the entire unit should be changed, thus effecting much lower levels of playing dramatically.
There is a drastic difference between a lot of the typical proxies you see and this build. First of all, let's not touch on other matchups; that is out of the scope of this thread (I will be the first to admit ZvT or ZvP probably needs some work balance-wise, but let's not continue on that path). The thing about other proxies, is that there is a variety of mechanical ways to deal with them even if you spot them late or don't spot them at all. Sometimes you can infer certain things based on scouting, sometimes you can't; but there is hardly a proxy or early all-in I can think of where you can't mechanically deal with it or infer something different is going on when you open with a safe build. There are certain BOs that will straight up lose to others (14 CC vs 5 pool anyone?) but those are risky builds vs risky builds. The conceptual problem with this build, as others have stated, is that it makes tvp into "build order poker," (or, more aptly, build order rock paper scissors). While there is something to be said about the game theory involved in those kinds of games (hell, you can even view most professional sports to have some of these game theory elements in them), I think most would agree we want to minimize the amount they affect games in starcraft. While other builds can be held off with quick adjustments, scouting, and excellent mechanics, if you do something slightly wrong against this build, you lose, and if you prepare specifically against it, you will be behind if they choose to something else. THAT is the problem, fundamentally. You can mention cloak banshees or something, but protoss players have been able to stop cloak banshees without getting behind as the game progresses for quite a while now.
Don't mistake this for me admitting this is OP prematurely; I agree that a bit more testing against it should be done, and that even the best players are very capable of being wrong about things.
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i get so many straightup bo losses after 5-10 min, so i dont see why that shouldnt at least sometimes be the case for terrans as well? :[
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On October 10 2010 15:00 Socke wrote:
i get so many straightup bo losses after 5-10 min, so i dont see why that shouldnt at least sometimes be the case for terrans as well? :[
What builds in particular, usually?
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On October 10 2010 15:04 PROJECTILE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 15:00 Socke wrote:
i get so many straightup bo losses after 5-10 min, so i dont see why that shouldnt at least sometimes be the case for terrans as well? :[ What builds in particular, usually?
These ones? (at least, the ones I've faced)
-Mass marines (Auto loss if you went zealot/stalker stalker on close maps, such that you can't get a sentry out in time to FF your ramp)
-Marine/Banshee/Raven push
-M&M concussive/stim push if caught off guard and not on ramp to FF
-Marines+Mass repair'd Thor
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Protoss don't auto lose to cloaked banshee cause they mostly assume its coming and incorporate that into the build from the start. There would be a whole lot of different mid-game strategies out of Protoss if they didn't have to do this. If this was the auto-win Terran makes it out to be, it would be used a lot more, which it isn't, because it's not. At least unlike cloaked banshee, a response doesn't require a unique tech path that's 3 buildings down . . .
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http://screplays.com/replays/ikester/11378
Not really saying it's completely insurmountable but this is ridiculous. I can only produce marines so fast and while I had an idea something was going on (2 gas when there were only 1-2 gates) it's stupid how effective they can be for no real trade off. He had nothing to worry about in terms of threat but when I'm playing Protoss, I have to be aware of any number of stupid cheese strats that might be thrown at me that I can't scout, even when I try and he doesn't.
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Take a couple marines and shift click the most likely places for proxy. 3 voids take a while to build and you should be able to find it no problem. That being said, I think void rays beam should only charge on enemy units and maybe rocks. Charging on your own units is just silly.
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Yeah, I must post in this thread again. This thing is sort of a bitch.
I just played Katari, who everyone said kept void raying them. I thought "great, I'm going to hard counter this and see how it goes". As soon as he left my ramp and I knew it was coming I threw down 2 more bunkers which are basically necessary, he poked back up my ramp, saw it, and just left his proxy pylon (which I'm assuming he was going to build his stargate at) and fast expanded. I had two worthless vikings and wasted bunkers. I ended up being significantly behind.
Bleh.
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After watching the replays, its pretty hard to see what you are talking about. The build is only good if you cant get a scout.
This concept applies to pretty much everything, a 6 pools is amazing if your opponent doesn't scout it.
I saw several points in the build where you could just crush it. Pretty much any time before he gets the first void out you should feel free to just walk right up to his base and start pressure. What can he do about it? Hes low on gateway units all the time, yeah he has stalkers but what can stalkers do against maruders and marines, with an early stim?
He cant really move out at all or even expand until about 10 minutes or later.
In the second game you made a few micro mistakes here and there, you raven had enough energy for point defense drone but was never thrown. The Scvs were not repairing your bunker. Those two things might have helped tremendously.
The point defense drone would have at least taken 50% of the stalker fire while you could have used your marines to focus down the void rays.
In both games though you early army was always bigger than his, if you had just pressured his front I think he would have had a much harder time executing this without dieing instantly.
Another example of how vulnerable he is, is also in game 2, your lone banshee without cloak just comes in and gets 6 probe kills, his one response is to run his probes away, because this one attack is his all in, if it doesn't work hes screwed might as well have GGed.
Anyways I am no expert, but just looking at the replays and the actions that happened, I would say the build is ok but only if you know for a fact that your opponent wont early pressure you.
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Don't change Void Rays, they are such an interesting unit to watch especially in very high level play. They add so many more mechanics and strategies to quiet a predictable SC2 Protoss.
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EPT
