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On October 10 2010 18:50 ikester wrote:
As I said before if someone sneaks a 4 gate, or even if the T mis-gussed and the P is 2-3 gate roboing. That Starport has no purpose unless the P decides to rush to collosus, which, if the P player is trying to scout somewhat with the Ob is made, then he's an idiot.
I really didn't understand before this thread that Protoss can do so many different builds so that Terran has no way of knowing.
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On October 10 2010 18:21 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:00 Delarchon wrote:On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
Protoss has to build robo just to be safe and till now that hasn't been ludicrious. it's terran we are talking about - haven't you read the thread, obviously terran should never have to prepare for stuff they can't scout; it's the other races that are supposed to do this @iEchoic: come on now, one viking is a extremely MINOR investment, given that your opponent obviously had to change his whole gameplan after seeing you were preparing for his build; if he planned to throw down a stargate, then his expo-timing was completely random, he just did it because he paniced;
You can't counter the push with one viking. The rest of your post is just general veiled whining about TvP. If you have a problem with TvP balance or game design then please complain about it somewhere else. I don't care to have a stupid race-war with you, I just want to talk about this build.
I've played against this build several times now and you absolutely need multiple vikings and/or multiple bunkers to hold it off. You can't hold off two charged void rays and multiple stalkers with a handful of marines and a viking.
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This sounds may sound abit contrived but how are you not scouting a Proxy Stargate? You don't even have to scout the Stargate to know it has been proxied...
If a toss has gone early double gas (you should be able to tell from your first scout) and prod the front of their base only to see a few gas intensive units then a further scan to see what the tech looks like only to see he has very few gas intensive structures and units, what else could they possibly be going? It's 150voidray for the initial stargate and another 150gas for each Voidray
Toss and Zerg have to prod the front of Terrans base quite often just to figure out what they are going, maybe this is just a shift in play style because Terran have always dictated the pace of the game and the tech that the other races choose. Truthfully, I wish more of Zerg/Protoss play forced Terran to prod/scout/scan much like Toss and Zerg have to right now with Terran.
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On October 10 2010 19:15 Dommk wrote:
This sounds may sound abit contrived but how are you not scouting a Proxy Stargate? You don't even have to scout the Stargate to know it has been proxied...
If a toss has gone early double gas (you should be able to tell from your first scout) and prod the front of their base only to see a few gas intensive units then a further scan to see what the tech looks like only to see he has very few gas intensive structures and units, what else could they possibly be going? It's 150voidray for the initial stargate and another 150gas for each Voidray
Toss and Zerg have to prod the front of Terrans base quite often just to figure out what they are going, maybe this is just a shift in play style because Terran have always dictated the pace of the game and the tech that the other races choose. Truthfully, I wish more of Zerg/Protoss play forced Terran to prod/scout/scan much like Toss and Zerg have to right now with Terran.
I think a 2000 diamond terran would be aware of this already.
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On October 10 2010 19:27 Cephei wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 19:15 Dommk wrote:
This sounds may sound abit contrived but how are you not scouting a Proxy Stargate? You don't even have to scout the Stargate to know it has been proxied...
If a toss has gone early double gas (you should be able to tell from your first scout) and prod the front of their base only to see a few gas intensive units then a further scan to see what the tech looks like only to see he has very few gas intensive structures and units, what else could they possibly be going? It's 150voidray for the initial stargate and another 150gas for each Voidray
Toss and Zerg have to prod the front of Terrans base quite often just to figure out what they are going, maybe this is just a shift in play style because Terran have always dictated the pace of the game and the tech that the other races choose. Truthfully, I wish more of Zerg/Protoss play forced Terran to prod/scout/scan much like Toss and Zerg have to right now with Terran. I think a 2000 diamond terran would be aware of this already.
I think he doesn't, as in both the replays he provided,he did neither.
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On October 10 2010 19:01 iEchoic wrote:
You can't counter the push with one viking. The rest of your post is just general veiled whining about TvP. If you have a problem with TvP balance or game design then please complain about it somewhere else. I don't care to have a stupid race-war with you, I just want to talk about this build.
tbh the rest of the post wasn't directed at you but at all the (other) T-whiners around here who just think it's utterly unfair that terran can't be aggressive without scouting as usual; and to be fair, if you look into the other threads, the amount of QQ here is definitely above average;
I can't remember reading much QQ in your hellion-drop-thread although it definitely prevents protoss from moving out of his base for good
I've played against this build several times now and you absolutely need multiple vikings and/or multiple bunkers to hold it off. You can't hold off two charged void rays and multiple stalkers with a handful of marines and a viking.
no but you can't really charge up void rays on a pylon while a viking is shooting at them; also the first viking normally comes (or should come) right when the protoss is preparing to engage, so it will really screw up his attack-timing; if you don't see...nothing with your viking cruising outside of your base, then he obviously won't be charging his void ray up any time soon
again, the first viking is there to screw up the charge-up-process; when he brings the rest of his army, you should bring yours as well - which should be larger given that 2 void rays is 500/300, you should have built something from your money at this point? I'm sure you agree on this one;
to cut the long story short: I have yet to see a protoss with void rays going into a fight in a pro-level-game where the void rays are NOT charged and the protoss wins despite of this; preventing the charge-up with the first viking normally enables the terran to win quite comfortably
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On October 10 2010 19:57 sleepingdog wrote:
preventing the charge-up with the first viking normally enables the terran to win quite comfortably
How do you prevent a void ray from charging when it's attacking a pylon outside of your base surrounded by stalkers? It's not possible.
I really feel like you've never used or played against this build. Have you? Your advice is good for generic void ray rushes but doesn't work on this strategy.
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On October 10 2010 20:02 iEchoic wrote:
I really feel like you've never used or played against this build. Have you? Your advice is good for generic void ray rushes but doesn't work on this strategy.
sure I have; I even provided a replay on the possible void ray abuse on shakuras with charge-up on the rocks just recently here if you are interested (no GG, just for demonstration):
- but as I said:
a) your viking should come faster; this is a timing-problem, if he is already charging up outside your base when your viking arrives, then something went wrong; baracks --> factory --> starport --> viking simply is faster than gateway --> core --> stargate ---> void rays, unless he proxies the void rays right outside your base and comes with his first ray immediately
b) if you ralley your viking outside your base you should be able to intercept; then it's as you yourself have said earlier: it's not hard to beat the stalker/void-ray-combo when they are NOT charged up already
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On October 10 2010 19:15 Dommk wrote:
This sounds may sound abit contrived but how are you not scouting a Proxy Stargate? You don't even have to scout the Stargate to know it has been proxied...
If a toss has gone early double gas (you should be able to tell from your first scout) and prod the front of their base only to see a few gas intensive units then a further scan to see what the tech looks like only to see he has very few gas intensive structures and units, what else could they possibly be going? It's 150voidray for the initial stargate and another 150gas for each Voidray
Toss and Zerg have to prod the front of Terrans base quite often just to figure out what they are going, maybe this is just a shift in play style because Terran have always dictated the pace of the game and the tech that the other races choose. Truthfully, I wish more of Zerg/Protoss play forced Terran to prod/scout/scan much like Toss and Zerg have to right now with Terran.
Because, like I said, until I see what his post-cyber core tech was I don't know what it was. In this example it could easily be a robo bay. 100 for the bay,100 for the immortal being cranked out, a sentry and a stalker and a zealot at the top of the ramp. Perfectly normal set up for any of the 3 teching paths. Could be fucken anything, and the robo bay could be anywhere in his base. Unfortunately, Blizzard decided mains should be larger than the size of a scan, so how am I to know for sure unless I actually fucking see it.
So no, your argument has been rendered invalid.
Like I said, it is impossible to ensure I find out what his tech is, just like in BW, so I need a standard opening that can help out against all possible Protoss builds. Unfortunately, we haven't quite figured out our SC2 equivelent of Siege FE/Fake Double, and the power of the void ray makes this kind of difficult. Conversely, Protoss have not figured out their 1 gate FE, so don't bother pointing that out.
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Regardless of the specific builds/balance, I have to agree that the void ray design seems flawed and would like to see them changed as per op's recommendation. If they are meant to be a counter to big stuff and get countered by masses of small stuff, making them lose charge when switching targets should have been a no-brainer, otherwise a critical mass of charged void rays annihilates small stuff with shift clicking just as surely as they annihilate big stuff.
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On October 10 2010 20:17 iaguz wrote:
Because, like I said, until I see what his post-cyber core tech was I don't know what it was. In this example it could easily be a robo bay. 100 for the bay,100 for the immortal being cranked out, a sentry and a stalker and a zealot at the top of the ramp. Perfectly normal set up for any of the 3 teching paths. Could be fucken anything, and the robo bay could be anywhere in his base. Unfortunately, Blizzard decided mains should be larger than the size of a scan, so how am I to know for sure unless I actually fucking see it.
So no, your argument has been rendered invalid.
That is so ridiculous, that is like saying Protoss only sees a tech lab and has no idea what Terran is going.
How about you keep prodding his ramp? Or spend more scans? Or use some general common sense, Protoss can't spread his buildings too far out because if he does and he gets dropped and loses it, apparently it's his fault for doing so, you see people like Kiwikaki pretty much having to wall off their Nexus with buildings just to reduce the effects of drops. Protoss buildings in TvP aren't going to be scattered, if they are they you know for sure something is up.
If he has early double gas then he has no real way of spending that unless he is constantly pumping stalkers and Immortals, if he only has a small stalker force (less than 10) then obviously something is up because with that much gas income he should have significantly more, if it looks like he hasn't spent it all then he is most likely going for some kind of Proxy Stargate build. The Proxy Stargate takes up roughly 40% of the gas income Protoss gets from his early double gas, that tidbit alone should be enough to able to derive his tech choice from his army composition.
If your first prod scan reveals nothing then the second prod/scan at a slightly later timing definitely should, EXACTLY how Protoss/Zerg have to play, but unfortunately, Protoss/Zerg don't have the luxury of scans so Protoss is forced into a robo 99% of the time and Zerg are left hung and dry.
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I understand it's near impossible to scout with certainty the protoss stargate tech but I don't see why a 3-1-1 build isn't safe vs everything. All marines + 2 marauders + fast medivacs is imo safe vs all toss aggresive openings and is aggresive enough to pressure a toss FE. If you notice stargate pressure or fast colossi it can easily switch to viking play as well. You might need a bunker against the voidray pressure build but for the rest it's completely safe imo.
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Correct me if i'm wrong but 1 base protoss cant support all that tech + 3 gate stalker + void rays on just 2 gas. You say 3 void rays ? lol ... that takes ages to build, by that time you should've seen he doesnt have robo bay and start pumping out marines. Yeah i know you people "think" marauders are so imba against stalkers but actually marines fair quite well with stim and combat shields they're the most scary unit ingame if not countered by colossi/tanks/banelings. If you are reeally having trouble with this build ... which you shouldnt tbh, Start banshee rushing or even better ... use bratOK's marine ghost build. He'll have the "three" voidrays (which imho is an exaggeration) and what ... 15 stalkers, when you should have 35ish marines with stim 2-3 ghosts and 3-4 medvacs ... guess who's gonna win that battle. Stop spamming marauders and expecting to win every time tbh. Marines +ghost are the safest opener against protoss tbh. If you see robo bay going up just slap a reactor on your port and start pumping vikings. Srsly, 2000 terran ? wow, what's your win/loss ratio btw against P ?
Edit: I just watched the 2nd replay you posted. SO you're actually complaining a protoss with an allinish push beat you while you went for an early expand ? LOL. Yeah ... voidrays are the problem here, not the fact you werent macroing propperly and didnt invest in any tech instead you chose to expand. Lulz. Seriously, learn BratOK's build, use it and expand as you move out. It crushes almost all the openers toss can do, unless he's going some lame gamble tech like templar rush or 1 gate robo for fast obs and then rush to colossi.
P.S. A standard 4-gate, 5-gate or 3 gate robo would've killed u just as easily. You expect to open with 2x rax and survive an allin push ... good luck with that.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 20:58 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 20:17 iaguz wrote:
Because, like I said, until I see what his post-cyber core tech was I don't know what it was. In this example it could easily be a robo bay. 100 for the bay,100 for the immortal being cranked out, a sentry and a stalker and a zealot at the top of the ramp. Perfectly normal set up for any of the 3 teching paths. Could be fucken anything, and the robo bay could be anywhere in his base. Unfortunately, Blizzard decided mains should be larger than the size of a scan, so how am I to know for sure unless I actually fucking see it.
So no, your argument has been rendered invalid. That is so ridiculous, that is like saying Protoss only sees a tech lab and has no idea what Terran is going. How about you keep prodding his ramp? Or spend more scans? Or use some general common sense, Protoss can't spread his buildings too far out because if he does and he gets dropped and loses it, apparently it's his fault for doing so, you see people like Kiwikaki pretty much having to wall off their Nexus with buildings just to reduce the effects of drops. Protoss buildings in TvP aren't going to be scattered, if they are they you know for sure something is up. If he has early double gas then he has no real way of spending that unless he is constantly pumping stalkers and Immortals, if he only has a small stalker force (less than 10) then obviously something is up because with that much gas income he should have significantly more, if it looks like he hasn't spent it all then he is most likely going for some kind of Proxy Stargate build. The Proxy Stargate takes up roughly 40% of the gas income Protoss gets from his early double gas, that tidbit alone should be enough to able to derive his tech choice from his army composition. If your first prod scan reveals nothing then the second prod/scan at a slightly later timing definitely should, EXACTLY how Protoss/Zerg have to play, but unfortunately, Protoss/Zerg don't have the luxury of scans so Protoss is forced into a robo 99% of the time and Zerg are left hung and dry.
Do you play Terran? If so, at what level? It doesn't sound like you do...
What I've said is true, and you haven't refuted it at all. The difference between my example and your example is the nature of the tech trees and the lead up to them. Like I described with my (very common, happens all the time) example, if I prod the ramp and see a stalker, a sentry and a zealot (or anything similar to that), then it probably means some kind of 1-gate tech build. Now, this part is in caps and bold because it's super important:
THERE IS NO FUCKING WAY TO INFER FROM THIS WHAT THE PROTOSS IS DOING EXACTLY, WHETHER IT BE VOIDS, DT'S OR ROBO BAY.
If I scan and still see nothing, same situation. Maybe he's proxied some dt tech in a hidden part of the map? (like one of the smokestacks in the main on metalopolis, god I fucking hate that area for proxy tech ><) Yes, this is a 'bad' build, I know. Tell that to every protoss that does it (which is like maybe 1% of them, admittedly, but it does happen and it makes me sad ><). Maybe I just didn't see the robo bay because of weird positioning (like he put it behind his mineral line. Goddamn). In quite a few of these cases I cannot 'prod and scan him multiple times' before what tech he is going becomes an issue.
If a protoss sees a marauder, he can correctly infer that I've got a tech lab. If his probe gets slowed by conc shells, there's a bit more information! Before you call bullshit on that, watch some of Kiwikaki's PvT games at IEM and his immortal timings. The first is just a defence against early pressure, but the 2nd-4th is because he sees marauders and knows that cloaked banshees and the 3/1/2 are not going to happen (or if they do, then his obs can see it). Yes, in a few games Kiwi suffered from banshee harass but that was more him having a bad counter harassment set up then the weakness with his build.
What I will suggest is perhaps using that marine/marauder/marauder/reaper opening and trying to slip in that reaper/scout the map. The reaper is pretty damn good at that. It does suck that the reaper opening is very hard to fit into builds which are not that one, but them's the breaks.
EDIT- As for the 3/1/1 build (the one that QXC uses a lot in TvP, check his games against huk to witness it's poweR), hmm, I dunno. That's a tricky one, lot of factors. Perhaps a test is in order? A lot depends on how the terran wrestles the early map control because if he does then the voids don't get to safely charge up on something and are quite impotent as a result.
In theory anyway.
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Ok, I watched the replay, and this is what I think should have happened that could have easily made that game a success:
Had the terran simply scout the incredibly stalker heavy army, pumping out 10-15 stimm'd marauders would have easily A) Taken care of the stalkers and B) destroyed the proxy pylon. No stalkers and no proxy pylon means no ground defense and no charged void ray. From that point on: he would have to make loads of zealots, and try to regain proxy pylon position for his strategy to work. I doubt you'd let that happen. And you now have successfully countered this build.
I'll grant you what I just said is closer to theorycraft than anything else because I play neither Terran nor Protoss; however, I think it's safe to say the design of the void ray is 100% fine and the only reason there haven't been posted counter strategies for this build already is because players like Artosis haven't posted using that strategy and then later posted how he loses by using it. It simply hasn't been tested enough times to come up with a solid counter. But this a progressive game, and I guarantee if this strat becomes more popular, there will be a well-developed way to handle it.
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On October 10 2010 19:01 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:21 sleepingdog wrote:On October 10 2010 18:00 Delarchon wrote:On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
Protoss has to build robo just to be safe and till now that hasn't been ludicrious. it's terran we are talking about - haven't you read the thread, obviously terran should never have to prepare for stuff they can't scout; it's the other races that are supposed to do this @iEchoic: come on now, one viking is a extremely MINOR investment, given that your opponent obviously had to change his whole gameplan after seeing you were preparing for his build; if he planned to throw down a stargate, then his expo-timing was completely random, he just did it because he paniced; You can't counter the push with one viking. The rest of your post is just general veiled whining about TvP. If you have a problem with TvP balance or game design then please complain about it somewhere else. I don't care to have a stupid race-war with you, I just want to talk about this build. I've played against this build several times now and you absolutely need multiple vikings and/or multiple bunkers to hold it off. You can't hold off two charged void rays and multiple stalkers with a handful of marines and a viking.
Marine/Viking should be able to stall the push until you get enough Vikings out to go lol on him. If you went wall off build against a strat that was designed to beat it, that's your fault. So yes, build order nonsense still exists, but this is an all innish strat that one scan should easily tell you what is going on if you time it right. If you see 3 gates but no 4th gate and a lack of troops, you can pretty much tell what's going to happen, and that's a proxy Stargate 99.9% of the time. The T's over here screaming that the P could also Proxy Colossai or Proxy DT are talking nonsense, since both would take way longer then a Proxy Stargate to come out, and the T would instantly know something is up with his scouting Viking at the normal proxy locations (which comes before either come out).
The fact that every T in here has said "scan does not work" goes to show you that alot of them have been either spoiled by SC2 or don't simply know how to play BW T, because early scan was critical in BW for T information early on, as that was the only way for them to scout other then building floating/vultures, which are not nearly as good as Reapers at scouting (cliff jumping). That one scan was the difference between living and dying in BW. If you say "scan does not work" then obviously some people here haven't been playing/watching recently, because that early scan is pretty much T's life line as to what to do after 1 Rax FE/Siege FE.
Alot of this wouldn't sound so QQ if the people here could actually provide replays of this all-in 1 base push working against top level players. I mean, it's not like T doesn't have 50 different ways to do exactly the same thing, so I don't see what's up with giving P one strat that finally makes them the aggressor early to mid game. Do I think VRs could use some redesigning? Absolutely. I would not mind at all; however, there are problems that far exceed an all-in 1 base strat that is EASILY scouted if you had a brain at all.
How many times have P players lost because of build order lottery against T at GSL/recent tournaments? How many times have T lost to build order lottery at top levels at recent tournaments against P? Just because finally a build has been discovered that puts you on the receiving end of your medicine, every T is now up and arms about "wow nerf this BS". So now you actually have to defend and have some reactionary skills, and you and other T's are up in arms about how VRs are bad design, OP, etc. force T to play blind (which they don't), etc.? P players could easily respond that Ravens are bad design, Banshees are bad design, the whole T race is a bad design. This strat just RECENTLY was discovered, it hasn't even been used at the highest levels, and no one has even put any real effort into developing a counter to it, and all the T's have said "wow, this is OP/bad design because I have to actually defend and have some reactionary skills for once instead of blindly building whatever I want and doing whatever the hell I want while still being safe."
It is pretty simple for the most part; the OP just simply got way outplayed and is rage posting. He expanded, 1-1-1 tech, and didn't even cut any workers for the most part, and he's going on about how VRs are bad design when virtually any of P's 1 base all-in could have beaten him. Do not get me wrong. I do think that such strats like these influence the metagame heavily, and are bad for it. I do however, think it's also funny that T players are QQing so hard when no one has even put in time and effort into figuring out a counter (that means more then 1 game).
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I said this before and I'll say again. As protoss I have to deal with banshee/rines/raven. You as terran have to deal with vrays 3 gate stalk. It's not imbalance and stop QQ'ing. If done perfectly it's very hard to counter but it's not impossible.
People rely on having the ultimate strat. It's also a game of risk & rewards with proper multitasking. Why do you think tourneys are bo5 bo7? It's because the best player is the one who can adapt to most situations. Let's say tester this did vray 3 gate stalker and won 2 games in a row, then hopetorture would be stupid to not try a completely diff strat to pressure tester when he is weakest and it's in the early stage.
I wouldn't be surprise if linko played custom game with this toss friend and tried many diff things but still lost then call it flawed and imba. Anyone ever tried thinking outside the box and this toss dude just knows how to beat linko coz he knows his strengths/weaknesses?
I haven't seen many of his games but judging from the 2 replays he provided it's clear he's more concentrated on his BOs rather than showing flexibility and adapting to the other player's strat. If he was serious about winning he would throw down a scan and see that vrays are coming. That's how you beat it. Look you think those pros at gsl love to scan and waste a mule? No but they understand that information and adaptation is more important than concentrating on your own BOs.... "it's not about: "oh but I need that mule so I can have the perfect timing for my ultimate build order"."
Like if I don't scout the banshee/rine/ravens it's my fault, I'm not gonna QQ and say well PDD is flawed or Cloak should take longer to research or marines should cost vespene gas. Now I'll stay mature and understand that strat is good at countering certain toss tendencies, I must try new ones (warp prism, phoenix hallu, etc) or resort back to older tendencies (the ultimate old and proven 4gate proxy) to counter it.
That's why I think most qq about imba is flawed because it's base around ladder play. Yes ladder play is a good ground for looking at balancing issues but because it's a 1 game ladder system it is not optimal. Look at tl or sc2 forums. It was a constant qq about T OP, not it's P OP. NA/EU players say T is OP, Asian no P is OP. All I can conclude from this it's that it's a constant battle on who's got the upper hand but since it swing back and forth it's pretty balanced.
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Its not worth it to make a wall of quotes, just read the whole sleeepingdog posts in the whole thread. The guy may not be the most finger-skilled player, but technically he has said exactly how protoss feel about TvP, and in this case the hilarious terran complains. Let´s see.
On October 10 2010 18:57 sleepingdog wrote:
if I move out I have to be "extremely" careful because once I get on the losing edge I lose everything vs concussive;
if I move out and terran goes for hellion-drop I can gg (happened to me often enough)
if I move out and terran goes for fast banshee-harass without cloak I can gg (happend to me often enough)
and finally the classic:
if I move out and terran just drops me with stimmed marauders I can gg
the only option for early aggression are chrono-boosted immortals; but then again the zealot/sentry/immortal-combo is the basic definition of "slow and immobile"
This is the basic, this. This is what the terran can´t see. P has always has to adapt to what terran do, scout and try to counter. Expreme caution is advised in a aganist terran.
Terran can go 1-1-1, 2-1-1, 1-1-2, 3 rax, Marine all-in, Banshees, hellions drop, proxys rax, proxy bunker, proxy factory, banshees, simply drop, fake push+drop,and as a toss player, im sure there are more im forgetting (sure, half can be scouted, but thats not the point). There is so so much builds/posibilities the terran have in this game with a lot of dps per cost, aka lot of efficiency.
For those who asked yesterday "why Huk don´t go templar tech? Why he always (like all korean pro P) go robo?" Because of the huge T builds/units versatility/movility, P must invest in observers or is probably dead.
Now going back on this post, and on-topic. What you, T gentlemen are saying (aka complaining) are the same things what P has to deal with in TvP... or even less. Why T can not invest in safety? Why T should always take the initiative?
I honestly don´t have an answer about what BO T must do aganist VR rush variety, but i can tell you one thing. VR are not OP (maybe have a crappy mechanic as many unpolished things in this game). Terrans must learn to adapt to threats, like Zerg adapted to 4-gates and Raks presure, or toss sadlly have to go Robo every non-all-in TvP.
And please...please.. before answer, be sure to check every TvP on mayor tourneys in the last two weeks.
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I never though about that, what a scary build order, having to blindly guess from rays or dts ...
When I watched the replay I just said DTs! and linko started building ravens so I though ha no way he will lose, then I saw startpot and figured I would have lost too ....
Luckly in my level there aint this types of strats xD
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the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about.
Here's Gnial's build
I have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155643.jpg)
