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+ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2010 15:00 Socke wrote:
i get so many straightup bo losses after 5-10 min, so i dont see why that shouldnt at least sometimes be the case for terrans as well? :[
Because Terrans should win every game, duh...
Well, yeah, this is a good point. Do note that I'm totally unsure about this build and the overall situation of TvP because of it. I only agree with a void ray nerf/redesign because I'm a selfish terran arsehat. I'm merely trying to refute some of the rather incorrect shit some people are saying about this MU.
EDIT- oh, and iEchoic, can we see that replay? I'd like to see what you did in that situation.
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On October 10 2010 15:44 iEchoic wrote:
Yeah, I must post in this thread again. This thing is sort of a bitch.
I just played Katari, who everyone said kept void raying them. I thought "great, I'm going to hard counter this and see how it goes". As soon as he left my ramp and I knew it was coming I threw down 2 more bunkers which are basically necessary, he poked back up my ramp, saw it, and just left his proxy pylon (which I'm assuming he was going to build his stargate at) and fast expanded. I had two worthless vikings and wasted bunkers. I ended up being significantly behind.
Bleh.
I hate Void Rays but you definitely can't assume Void Ray everytime. This just diminishes the argument because you blindly assumed void ray vs. people who are actually looking for it.
If you assume that you'll die everytime to a specific build then I promise that you'll die every time to something you didn't guess.
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How is this a thread about a design flaw and not about voidrays being overpowered? There are a lot of builds that will destroy you if you don't scout it and adjust accordingly.
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On October 10 2010 12:07 Floophead_III wrote:
Oh dear god... I just read through a good portion of this thread. We HAVE to get some strategy forum restrictions. I feel so bad for great players like Avilo and Link0 getting shittalked by gold league champions who think they've figured out the entire game. It's just a joke now. I feel about sc2 strategy the way I feel about the battlenet forums. It doesn't matter how good your post is and what you say because the noobs will just flock to it and spout nonsense nonstop until your OP is so covered in bullshit that you have wade up to your eyeballs in it to find any good information.
TL please do something. =[
Edit: and to keep this reasonably on track:
Voidrays should be changed dramtically. I'm not talking about little balance tweaks. I want to see a complete unit redesign. Blizzard should've realized they botched the voidray in beta, but I think amidst the chaos of balancing out marine/scv allins and other more pressing matters it got overlooked by the community. I do think that most people simply don't comprehend how the voidray is bad game design, but I assure everyone that link0 is right - it is.
The funny thing is that Link0 makes it sound like P players haven't been dealing with similar builds (such as 3/1/2, 1/1/2, or any 1/1/1 tech push which you have to counter blind half the time) for the most part. If I have to get a VR redesign then Mauraders / Banshees / Medivacs / Mules / etc. need a redesign too. Most players don't realize that high level P players gamble alot and blindly counter half the time, because they are reactionary for the most part until way late in the game.
Indeed this specific build is very strong and forces a certain reactions, but so do many other builds from T, so I'm not seeing much of a difference here. T's are allowed to have builds that force P to react in a certain way or play blind, while P aren't? That's just biased thinking.
I'm not the best player ever, but by no means I am no gold champion scrub (1400 Diamond). VRs I do agree are very OP in this specific strategy and in these specific situations, but so are many units (Marine/Banshee/Raven anyone?)
And no, the suggestion of blind Viking counter is not bad considering most T's build them to deal with Colossai/snipe Obs anyways. Adding a viking or two to your build is not going to cripple you at all, especially if it can prevent all-innish cheese like this.
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On October 10 2010 17:05 ikester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 15:44 iEchoic wrote:
Yeah, I must post in this thread again. This thing is sort of a bitch.
I just played Katari, who everyone said kept void raying them. I thought "great, I'm going to hard counter this and see how it goes". As soon as he left my ramp and I knew it was coming I threw down 2 more bunkers which are basically necessary, he poked back up my ramp, saw it, and just left his proxy pylon (which I'm assuming he was going to build his stargate at) and fast expanded. I had two worthless vikings and wasted bunkers. I ended up being significantly behind.
Bleh. I hate Void Rays but you definitely can't assume Void Ray everytime. This just diminishes the argument because you blindly assumed void ray vs. people who are actually looking for it. If you assume that you'll die everytime to a specific build then I promise that you'll die every time to something you didn't guess.
He actually proxied a pylon outside my base that I assume he was going to build a stargate at, so I believe he realized I was going to counter it and just switched, because he kept poking up and checking up on me. So I believe I was countering the right strategy, at least initially.
To the post above ikester's, I'm in bed on my laptop now, but I'll hopefully upload it in the morning.
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I'm not entirely in love with voidrays in sc2. there was no strange units like this in bw - in bw there was only straight up damage and basic spells.
While voidrays add an interesting dynamic to sc2, they own new players too easily and seem kind of gimmicky on the whole.
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On October 10 2010 12:07 Floophead_III wrote:
And no, the suggestion of blind Viking counter is not bad considering most T's build them to deal with Colossai/snipe Obs anyways. Adding a viking or two to your build is not going to cripple you at all, especially if it can prevent all-innish cheese like this.
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
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you could have pushed him at the start of game 2, after his ff he still only had 1sentry and one zealot
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On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
Protoss has to build robo just to be safe and till now that hasn't been ludicrious.
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Obs are overall very utilitarian. A viking isn't if the Protoss ended up 4 gating. Or getting DT. Or getting Robo with Immortal.
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o hai mr. 2000pt diamond dude, perhaps you should have let your fellow 2000 pt diamond, Huk, know about this before he went down to a Terran yesterday. Or to all the Protoss who lost in PvT matchups at the GSL Open a week or two ago. It's not like some of those players are paid to figure out how to win.
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On October 10 2010 18:00 Delarchon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:
Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
Protoss has to build robo just to be safe and till now that hasn't been ludicrious.
it's terran we are talking about - haven't you read the thread, obviously terran should never have to prepare for stuff they can't scout; it's the other races that are supposed to do this
@iEchoic: come on now, one viking is a extremely MINOR investment, given that your opponent obviously had to change his whole gameplan after seeing you were preparing for his build; if he planned to throw down a stargate, then his expo-timing was completely random, he just did it because he paniced;
why on earth is it justified that protoss has to get 2 observers when we see starport with tech-lab (danger of cloak) for 50/200 while it's supposedly totally ludicrous to get one viking for 150/75 when you suspect a void ray opening;
seriously, why the hell has each terran here so many problems putting himself in the shoes of protoss once in a while? and seeing that protoss makes many kinda useless investments game after game just to be safe against stupid stuff? examples needed?
I play with one gate robo and start chronoboosting an immortal immediately after my observer is out to be safe against early aggression (kiwikaki does it every game, huk does it occasionally); now when terran goes PURE marine and goes towards marine/banshee/raven, well there goes 250/100 for an immortal into the drain because immortals are utter crap both vs marines and vs banshees; but hey, do we complain? noo....we accept that this is life, if terran commits to marauders early then one immortal can mean the difference between living and dieing; if I adapt properly I can still win once in a while;
also protoss chrono-boosts out a stalker immediately to not lose probes vs an early reaper that never comes but "could" come; I'd much rather go zealot/sentry (as do many korean pros nowadays who apparently take the risk of reaper-harass once in a while)
but somehow one viking blind is suddenly supposed to mean auto-loss for terran
really?
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On October 10 2010 17:53 ikester wrote:Come on, that's ridiculous. A Terran shouldn't have to assume to go Starport to be safe, that's just ludicrious. Having to get a starport early on is really bad if you guess the wrong tech.
p has to with going robo to counter any possibilty of banshee
On October 10 2010 18:02 ikester wrote:
Obs are overall very utilitarian. A viking isn't if the Protoss ended up 4 gating. Or getting DT. Or getting Robo with Immortal.
you can still make medivacs out of the starport. 1 "wrong" unit wont loose you the game(99% of the time)
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@iEchoic:
Katari expo'd instead of stargate, you have a starport and two bunkers.
At this point, you salvage the bunkers and expo yourself and proceed to dropship harass. You may end up slightly behind, but that's what you get for preparing for something that didn't come. How is this unplayable?
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Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:02 ikester wrote:
Obs are overall very utilitarian. A viking isn't if the Protoss ended up 4 gating. Or getting DT. Or getting Robo with Immortal. you can still make medivacs out of the starport. 1 "wrong" unit wont loose you the game(99% of the time)
So basically losing all opportunities to be aggressive early against protoss is fair right?
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On October 10 2010 18:44 Cephei wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:02 ikester wrote:
Obs are overall very utilitarian. A viking isn't if the Protoss ended up 4 gating. Or getting DT. Or getting Robo with Immortal. you can still make medivacs out of the starport. 1 "wrong" unit wont loose you the game(99% of the time) So basically losing all opportunities to be aggressive early against protoss is fair right?
to put it simply:
YES
protoss loses all opportunities to be aggressive vs terran because so many ressources go into scouting for crazy stuff like cloaked banshees; why the hell do you (as many other T-players obviously) seriously believe, terran is supposed to be able to dominate the midgame on the open field vs protoss "by default" just because of playing terran?
I can't emphazise enough, how this aspect indeed brings more balance because there is finally one protoss-build around that makes terran actually crap their pants and forces them to be less aggressive; protoss can't leave its base against 1/1/1(2) anyways, otherwise my mineral-line just dies vs pre-igniter-hellions or banshees (cloaked or uncloaked won't matter when I don't have anti-air in my base)
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On October 10 2010 18:24 amaGAWD wrote:
you can still make medivacs out of the starport. 1 "wrong" unit wont loose you the game(99% of the time)
It's not one unit though. Making medivac doesn't do you any good in that early of a stage of the game, you need units to deal with the Protoss army that (obviously) doesn't need an equivalent option to the medivac. Medivacs and, to a lesser extent, Ghosts are inherently defense options. As I said before if someone sneaks a 4 gate, or even if the T mis-gussed and the P is 2-3 gate roboing. That Starport has no purpose unless the P decides to rush to collosus, which, if the P player is trying to scout somewhat with the Ob is made, then he's an idiot.
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On October 10 2010 18:49 sleepingdog wrote:
protoss loses all opportunities to be aggressive vs terran because so many ressources go into scouting for crazy stuff like cloaked banshees; why the hell do you (as many other T-players obviously) seriously believe, terran is supposed to be able to dominate the midgame on the open field vs protoss "by default" just because of playing terran?
I can't emphazise enough, how this aspect indeed brings more balance because there is finally one protoss-build around that makes terran actually crap their pants and forces them to be less aggressive; protoss can't leave its base against 1/1/1(2) anyways, otherwise my mineral-line just dies vs pre-igniter-hellions or banshees (cloaked or uncloaked won't matter when I don't have anti-air in my base)
This isn't true.
Depending on the map, P has plenty of options of be aggressive early on. And the game should not be so stifling as to completely get rid of any early option Terran has, that's just ludicrous.
Even in TvP in BW, an option of a proxy rax was still viable. : /
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On October 10 2010 18:53 ikester wrote:
This isn't true.
Depending on the map, P has plenty of options of be aggressive early on.
then enlighten me please
if I move out I have to be "extremely" careful because once I get on the losing edge I lose everything vs concussive;
if I move out and terran goes for hellion-drop I can gg (happened to me often enough)
if I move out and terran goes for fast banshee-harass without cloak I can gg (happend to me often enough)
and finally the classic:
if I move out and terran just drops me with stimmed marauders I can gg
the only option for early aggression are chrono-boosted immortals; but then again the zealot/sentry/immortal-combo is the basic definition of "slow and immobile"
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EPT
