EPTVoid Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 19
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Cyanocyst
2222 Posts
Also the way the VR Ai works, it will follow the pulled back unit for a second or so in an attempt to reach its max charge. However this is advantageous cause you can kite the void ray in to range of more your troops. Pretty pathetic that a Terran would complain about scouting and proxy buildings. Given those are Terran advantages. If your uncomfortable missing tech with a scan. Scout with a Rax, Hold the Xelnaga's, count units, or sac a marine or 2 to just go around scouting in the backs of unused mains and stuff. | ||
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Roflhaxx
Korea (South)1244 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
If you scan or scout the stargate you can just push up his ramp with relative ease and force tons of probes to come. He may or may not have a sentry, even if he does it's quite hard. You even see players opening gate-cyber-gate having to pull probes off just for a stupid ass small army produced out of 2 rax. It's ridiculous. (happened in the GSL all time, pretty much every TvP Maka was in and a few more) On October 11 2010 06:45 Cyanocyst wrote: Just did an experiment. Did you know that its possible to keep void rays from ever charging. You just pull back the unit(s) that the void rays are firing upon. This causes the void to switch targets, and the charge time is reset. That's why no one charges on units. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On October 11 2010 05:49 lizzuma wrote: This is the last time I will post in a thread with so many useless comments coming from random idiots. You must have skipped the rest of the thread. How are LOTS of marines going to counter 10+ stalkers, sentry, 3 VR and maybe even probe pull with it? The fact of the matter is, they won't. Like iEchoic and link0 said (the only people really worth listening to here), you pretty much have to blind counter this build, and if you don't get lucky and go against it you've put yourself at an economic disadvantage. JUST today I played one game where I saw 3 gate with low unit count on my scan so I double bunkered my front, and instead my opponent just took FE, went 2 robo colossus and said gg. Honestly you and many others should be banned for such useless posts here. Random idiots? The only people worth listening? Protoss for the past 2 months have had to play blind for the most part until observer, play super defensive, can't expand, can't tech too quickly or risk getting Stim timing attacked, has to spread out pylons to avoid drops, play perfect, and come up with the goods late game to win games. The amount of whining over a strategy where you can run him over easy with any 2/3 rax variation early aggression is hilarious. If you scan and see what he's doing (which you should clearly be able to do based off his troop count, his Gateway count, and the lack of Robo bay or no fast observer in your base during a certain point), this strat totally fails. Marine/Ghost opening beats this build and is pretty much safe versus all builds (yes, even 1 Gate blind Colossai rushes). 3 Rax Ghost variations are also decent, although they put you back behind on gas a little too much (though grant huge map control since Marine/Maurader/Ghost lols on everything P has until Storm or alot of Colossai). If you are really that scared, open 3 Rax Brat_Ok and expand and play as normal if you think he's not going to go VRs, and if he is, just get tons of Marines out while getting some Vikings out. It's not even that this build is OP; Just because the roles all of a sudden change with a strategy innovation, doesn't mean anything is OP/bad design. No one has even attempted to put in serious effort into exploiting timing holes (which there are clearly many) in this strat, and all you have are tons of T players coming in here whining that they for once actually have to work for wins rather then blindly tech/expand/eco up without any repercussions. The OP is clearly a better player than me, but this is an all-in build with absolutely no transition whatsoever. It's designed to beat players that do greedy builds, and that was what the OP was doing. I agree that strategies like these are partially due to bad design, but T has a plethora of timing attacks that are far worse and just as equally as hard to defend against, while coming much earlier. The thing that perplexes me is that P players should be subjected to build order poker but T players shouldn't just because they play T. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On October 11 2010 06:45 Cyanocyst wrote: Pretty pathetic that a Terran would complain about scouting and proxy buildings. Given those are Terran advantages. If your uncomfortable missing tech with a scan. Scout with a Rax, Hold the Xelnaga's, count units, or sac a marine or 2 to just go around scouting in the backs of unused mains and stuff. pretty much this. i don't see how this is a valid discussion. OP pretty much says its difficult to scout and lists ways to nerf VRs. He doesn't even talk about why the design is 'flawed' (title topic) Most builds, if not scouted, are hard to block. VR opening is no exception. I don't understand why this topic is still open. It should be closed, or at least in blogs. | ||
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Muey
Finland149 Posts
On October 11 2010 06:45 Cyanocyst wrote: Just did an experiment. Did you know that its possible to keep void rays from ever charging. While nice this is completely useless when the voids come pre-charged at you. | ||
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Dreadwolf
Canada220 Posts
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Aeruthus
United States98 Posts
On October 11 2010 05:49 lizzuma wrote: This is the last time I will post in a thread with so many useless comments coming from random idiots. You must have skipped the rest of the thread. How are LOTS of marines going to counter 10+ stalkers, sentry, 3 VR and maybe even probe pull with it? The fact of the matter is, they won't. Like iEchoic and link0 said (the only people really worth listening to here), you pretty much have to blind counter this build, and if you don't get lucky and go against it you've put yourself at an economic disadvantage. JUST today I played one game where I saw 3 gate with low unit count on my scan so I double bunkered my front, and instead my opponent just took FE, went 2 robo colossus and said gg. Honestly you and many others should be banned for such useless posts here. Why did you not send an SCV out to scout if he's fast expanding and if he isn't to find if he's proxy'd a stargate or is teching heavily? Assuming it was Voidrays two bunkers at the front won't help much at all, he can just attack the furthest place from the bunkers and when you pull to deal with Voidrays push with his ground at your front and just bounce you back and forth slowly chipping away at you. Even if he did push at the front with his voidrays, you can't micro your marines (lawl) to focus the voidrays (that might be charged already due to a proxy pylon/assimilator) so you're going to get stomped. If he is fast expanding then you obviously have a timing window to force a cancel on the expo and or flat out kill him if you can snipe the sentry/s at the top of his ramp. If you're going to complain about something at least give enough information so others can give you advice on how to deal. Just saying "I saw 3 gate with low unit count on my scan so I double bunkered my front, and instead my opponent just took FE, went 2 robo colossus and said gg." isn't very helpful since we have no idea what BO you went. Besides all this, you have LOTS of time to prepare for a double robo AFTER a FE. | ||
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Goliath-sc
France44 Posts
there aren't 100 units type in the game, he's not taking his two gas to produce a sentry based army! unless he also hides his twilight council which means he's going for DTs, always save 50 energ but its pretty more rare. If you have time get a reactor starport, 2 vikings to support your marines but actually I prefer medivacs. a stimmed bioball can counter that pretty well. And of course, don't forget to harass and prepare to counter attack as soon as you finish defending. | ||
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dp
United States234 Posts
On to the point. The 3 gate VR opening is a very strong, hard to scout, nearly all-in strat. Now the problems that I see from this thread is that, there is really no constructive talk on this. Mostly all terrans defending the "its OP, puts me back, I am dead if I don't scout it and its nearly impossible to scout" while zerg and toss are just saying "HAHA WELCOME TO MY WORLD L2P." ..Really guys? First off, Terrans, most of you that have posted point that you have seen this bo a handful of time, 30 times, blah blah blah. I am not saying that your not capable of figuring this out without playing against the build constantly, but I feel you will soon be seeing this build much more often after this thread, and with increased exposure you will start to see more tell tale signs, whether you want to admit it now or not. Compare timings to common toss builds. When should you see what units? This is not a L2P response. I just feel that this strat is not THAT commonly used, at least not yet on US/EU servers, and the lack of overall practice and timing tests aren't helping. The funny thing is, most replays/vods I have seen of toss using this bo do not hide their stargate out of their base. OF COURSE THEY CAN, just saying, majority that I have seen don't even bother, which leads me to believe that terrans have definitely become too passive on scouting and too use to causing reactionary builds. I'm not saying to throw out more scans that is more of a gamble then anything. BUT, I rarely see terrans even see the attack coming before it is at their natural. On anything but short rush distance maps/maps with destructible rocks near natural, I would think that throwing down 2 bunkers, and pushing your forces out to your natural to kill probe/damage pylon before units get their could give a larger window to defend. If you went for a greedy bo and don't have a chance either way, well it happens. The one thing that kind of worries me for terran though is that I still feel toss hasn't fully refined this strat yet, and it will be better with time as well. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
I agree completely that it's impossible for terran to know with certainty if the protoss is doing this but it is possible to find the proxy spots for the stargate on most maps. If the stargate isn't proxied the rush comes a fair bit later and it's much easier to stop. One great terran build order that easily stops the void ray build and is great all around is the build from ITR vs tester game 2. It gets concussive shells, stim and marine shield after eachother ASAP which means stim will be finished the time a voidray rush comes and shield will about 3/4s. It also get all marines with just 2 marauders and reasonably fast medivacs. Not building near the ramp and having a nearly all marine army with stim and shield almost done is fine for stopping this attack really and against a protoss FE you can start dropping while putting down your own expo which usually puts you even. | ||
grapez
United States64 Posts
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
No offense to OP or anything, but I find it really hard to believe that a 2000+ T thinks this build is such a problem that VRs need a rework though I do agree that VRs could use a rework though, but for different reasons. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On October 11 2010 08:53 dp wrote: Compare timings to common toss builds. When should you see what units? This is not a L2P response. I just feel that this strat is not THAT commonly used, at least not yet on US/EU servers, and the lack of overall practice and timing tests aren't helping. The thing that gets me is that I so rarely open with a stargate vs terran. Terran AA is just too good to begin with and robo openings are almost always preferred against the inevitable bio ball. I had no idea so many terrans were freaking out over a void ray opening. Maybe they're all just in this thread, or significantly higher/lower then me on the ladder (1000 point diamond). | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On October 11 2010 10:17 kidd wrote: I watched the first replay. why wouldn't you sit an scv or marine outside 2nd to know when units are coming? If you knew, that would've been gg, but also, there was no marine micro focusing down the VRs and you funneled your own units into the ramp. The P didn't have to micro at all. Just leave a unit outside enemy base to scout when army is coming and destroy it while it's on the way and focus VRs with your marines. That would've won the game even with your "bad" build against the VR strat. Also he FFed you from coming into his base, but he only had one sentry, you could've just waited and run up, killed the units then seen the stargate. No offense to OP or anything, but I find it really hard to believe that a 2000+ T thinks this build is such a problem that VRs need a rework though I do agree that VRs could use a rework though, but for different reasons. Yes, continue to give advice to a player infinitely better than you and berate him on how he should never have an issue with this build ever cause you're so much better. Jesus christ. Can you people realize what he's actually trying to say? Link0 is saying that this build requires very specific, awkward responses, and it works really really well vs most standard openings - so well that it basically automatically wins. Therefore, if T plays standard, they lose. If they play suboptimally, they can win. Any T isn't going to go into a game and say "I'm going to play really stupid and open mass viking with 2 bunkers of marines." T's who open like that lose completely and horribly to fast expands, dt, 4 gate stalker, and other builds. You simply have to get lucky and guess sometimes. So what you have is a coinflip from both sides: P says: "Well, lets hope T doesn't scout this allin or blindly do a counter build." T says: "Well I hope he's doing a weird allin and not just playing standard" It's too much deviation from standard play for both players, and because of that you'll always have some games lost just to picking the wrong build. On top of that, voidrays actually aren't amazing vs BCs and do way way way too well vs stalkers and vikings. They're bastardized from their original purpose, in a bad way. They need to be fixed, and have been since the start of beta. | ||
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Delarchon
Finland132 Posts
Kill proxy pylons. Scout and attack when toss moves out. No charged void rays. Not much army left if P keeps 3 VR's charged off it's own units all the way from own base. Should be time to kill the rocks before 10+ stalkers and 3 void rays come out. | ||
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Mithhaike
Singapore2759 Posts
This build order is very hard to stop based on one thing that im sure a lot of you guys missed reading. the voidrays are pre-charged on the proxy pylon/units BEFORE he attacked. the point is, charged voidrays are just doing incredible amounts of damage to everything. yes void rays can be countered by marines as a lot of people are exclaiming out loud, or vikings.but nothing in this game counters CHARGED voidrays, which is the issue here.the stalkers needs marauders to be countered with, the voidrays require marines/vikings. however i repeat,charged voidrays are just too awesome to be stopped. another thing in the OP mentioned, is that its hard to see it coming due to the fact that the stargates etc can be proxied/hidden. to all those people claiming "scouting will win", yes thats correct,but what are the chances you will be able to find that hidden tech on time? or that they even let you scout the hidden tech with your scv without intercepting and killing it? there's a ton of variables, which will result in a probable scouting denial of the hidden tech and there's NOTHING that terrans can do. so we move on to the topic of counter.i've read people recommending stuff like blind vikings, or Bratok's build will hard counter etc etc. i agree,it will counter most of the time. but have you read the most important part of the OP that i've emphasised up there? charged voidrays are just too good,even against their hardcounters(marines/vikings). there's no way to stop charged voidrays if the protoss brings them to you ALREADY CHARGED. he's not going to charge on YOUR buildings letting you get free shots at them,he's bringing them in as the hammer for the stalker's anvil. so to conclude this post, the voidrays are flawed in design as they do too little damage when not charged, and waaaaay too much when charged. people who's claiming "well dont let him charge up in the 1st place" is missing the point. he can always charge up on his units/buildings before attacking. and there's nothing you can do to stop 3-4 charged voidrays+stalkers | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
but when protoss or zerg get a build that cause terran TO HAVE to react its a design flaw and needs to be nerfed. terran players, and even seems even the top terran players have gotten to sucked into the notion that they are the ones who should be dictating pace, now when something comes along to chalange that analogy they find them selves struggleing. protoss players who have had to react to terans build orders now have an all in means to keep greedy terrans on their toes. | ||
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Mithhaike
Singapore2759 Posts
On October 11 2010 10:50 TyrantPotato wrote: simply put. when terran has all the builds that dictate pace of the game causeing other races to play reactively the game is working as intended. but when protoss or zerg get a build that cause terran TO HAVE to react its a design flaw and needs to be nerfed. terran players, and even seems even the top terran players have gotten to sucked into the notion that they are the ones who should be dictating pace, now when something comes along to chalange that analogy they find them selves struggleing. protoss players who have had to react to terans build orders now have an all in means to keep greedy terrans on their toes. this just reek of Terran-Hate and total ignorance. please read my post on top before replying again. its not about a build that cause a reactionary response, its about the voidray design in this build which is just too good for a viable counter. builds that cause a reactionary response are around for all races. infact technically you have to react no matter what to whatever build you see kcdc Fast expand - terran scouts it,respond with either early aggression trying to punish the FE, or FE himself. its a reaction right? 4gate - the terran comes into the game planning to 2-3rax FE, he sees the 4gate, he respond with bunkers or stopping the expansion altogether. wow look! another reaction? please do not spread your hating of a particular race around the forums is all im trying to say. keep an objective mind and actually read what is being discussed. applies to a lot of people here, im just taking you as a newest example of the silly race biasedness im seeing here. SC2 is a game,have fun with all the races. | ||
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