|
On October 09 2010 23:04 mGMUSE wrote:
obviously alot of people here do not know what they are talking about, the thing is with this toss build there is no hard counter to it, and it allows you to transition to other builds easily or at a very low cost, while giving you a very high percentage of winning the game right there.
insert "marine/banshee/raven" and you have it exactly the other way round - also wins many games instantly and allows for a shit-load of viable transitions
I can only speak for myself, but I've pretty much seen all high level protoss-reps that are available from www.sc2rep.com, www.gosugamers.net, sc2rep.net, www.sc2replayed.com, www.sc2win.com, star2.gamechosun.co.kr, http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2, http://rts-sanctuary.com, www.sc2-replays.net and watched all protoss-vods that can be found on http://sc2casts.com/
therefore I think I've got a pretty good idea what void ray play on high level PvT looks like; I've seen it insta-win many times and I've seen it fail many times; it can be played as classic all-in or can be played more harassment-like while expanding (which tester tried to do but what was countered by the FE from ITR); the transitions is much harder than the transition terran can do when doing its timing pushes because you have no robo - meaning you are too steps (robo + bay) and not only one step away from a useful transition into standard play
|
link0, I agree with you that it is hard to stop. A few things I usually do:
-Build a proxy barrack and use it to scout his base. Timing is so important in TvP (as you surely know) so its always useful, lasts lomnger, and cheaper than a scan. In addition he gotta show his army if he want to get rid of the barrrack.
-If I see something missing in his base, I always put up an engeneering bay asap and build a turret + a bunker close to my choke (most likely void rays or dt incoming). I will suggest you think about your bunker placement. In replay 1 it is to close to choke imho. In addition I tech to starport slightly faster than normal and make a viking. In case you spot mass stalkers you can go for a raven later.
- Also force him to use more force fields early game than is the case in replay 1. He will be forced to warp in more sentries = less gas for vr.
Just my 5 cents...
|
Why is Void Rays so difficult to scout then?
Reapers and scans are pretty good for scouting i think. When you think about it kinda feels that it's actually very easy for terran to scout compared to other races.
|
How does a fucking marauder spammer (terran) complain about void ray?? How the fuck can you complain????
Youre all idiots for complaining about the void ray
User was temp banned for this post.
|
So much crap being spread everywhere in this thread.
As another high level diamond player (1950 top 70 NA) I have to agree with OP here, take my opinion combined with my rating however you please. As has been stated, a lot of you idiots didn't even take the time to read the OP.
When you play against a high level diamond Toss, this build is hard to see coming and nearly impossible to stop. When they micro properly and come in precharged, any outside buildings you have are going to get absolutely fried. Then your marines are going to get fried. There is no real timing window for T aggression because the fact of the matter is even off of this build which goes 1 gate to stargate then adds gates 2 and 3 after, you still don't have enough marine/marauder to bust up a ramp with stalkers looking down on you. Even if you somehow make it through, you're going to end up in a base trade situation at best.
I think that the solution is one that link0 outlined: voids lose their charge when switching targets but build it up much faster. So yes, they now suck royally vs marines, but isn't that kind of how it should be? There are PLENTY of other units in the Protoss arsenal that do great against marines. I mean come on, we're talking about the fucking marine. With this change, they are now a viable counter to colossus, BC, carrier ETC, AND they still take down buildings extremely effectively.
And to everyone talking about auto losses for Protoss when facing such and such a build, 1 or even 2 gate robo prepares adequately for almost all of them.
|
I agree with OP. Void Rays aren't bad. they do very well at holding early pressure, and they are great harassers. Their problem lies with the fact that the charge mechanics are so unreliable.
They do great in your opponents base, but in any other battle situation they suck. Thus, past bronze play, I don't build very many, simply because they don't do well in regular combat. Like siege tanks only much much worse. Then there is the problem with countering with them. supposedly, they are a good response to Carriers, Motherships, Battlecrusiers, Collosi, and Corrupters. yeah right. again, they only do well if they find something to charge on before the battle starts, which if used defensively, either means you have insane guessing skills, or really good scouting, which is nulled if they decided to stall an attack. On top of that, they are terrible in open fields.
I agree that something needs to be changed. they are only good if your opponent isn't prepared for it, and after that point, they become dead weights. However, I think that the suggested changes would be too much.
|
On October 09 2010 23:27 Cashout wrote:
fast robo -> obs provides enough intelligence to counter any build terran throws at you, its definatelly safest and most flexible pvt build.
3gats + void ray is only counterable if u know in advance its comming and thats pretty much impossible unless u are very lucky or have some kind of 6th sense, preparing for vr rush everygame puts u way behind any other "normal" P build.
it's called "scan" - it costs 50 OC-energy
observers force protoss to sink 250/150 into getting some useful scouting information; how on earth could you argue that protoss can be much more flexible, when they are forced to waste 250/150 early just to know what units/buildings they should "actually" get? the only reason why protoss transitions into colossi is because they simply can't get robotics AND templar-tech off one base
and you call this flexible....
|
Just as i read this, i dl some recent korean TvP Gon vs Iron, you can see how strong the voidray push is, even if its scouted. However it also shows how to deal with it after the initial push.
I thing its really a good example of problems that might occur doing this strategy
Replay link :
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/1951
|
I actually kind of liked the suggestion about changing the damage +armored to +massive. Not because I see something broken about the Void Ray but because it could, as you said, potentially make the PvP matchup more interesting and not just a Collossus race. Maybe.
|
I'm pretty confused after watching your replays...
In game 1 like others have said, it was clear you should have tried going up the ramp again after FF wore off. This is coming from myself as a protoss player, trust me when I say that if a toss forcefields beyond the bottom of the ramp so you can't see up at all, without trapping any of your units inside, it's because he is scared shitless of your unit count and he's trying to buy any amount of time that he can to stay alive, even if it only becomes by a thread. Hell, even if you had only rallied your units to his ramp you would have been able to contain his entire ground army. You let him walk across the map to get his ground army by the rocks which were by his VR's which is the reason you lost that.
In game 2, I think his push was actually a lot stronger, but you had a raven long before he got to your ramp with stalkers. What stopped you from throwing down a PDD to stop the stalkers from killing the marines? Wouldn't that have let you focus fire down the VR with the marines and thor?
|
On October 09 2010 23:40 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 23:27 Cashout wrote:
fast robo -> obs provides enough intelligence to counter any build terran throws at you, its definatelly safest and most flexible pvt build.
3gats + void ray is only counterable if u know in advance its comming and thats pretty much impossible unless u are very lucky or have some kind of 6th sense, preparing for vr rush everygame puts u way behind any other "normal" P build.
it's called "scan" - it costs 50 OC-energy observers force protoss to sink 250/150 into getting some useful scouting information; how on earth could you argue that protoss can be much more flexible, when they are forced to waste 250/150 early just to know what units/buildings they should "actually" get? the only reason why protoss transitions into colossi is because they simply can't get robotics AND templar-tech off one base and you call this flexible....
u know robo also provides immortals and colo which are perfect counter to the most of early terrans army composition, even in bw P always went robo then switched to other tech it always has been like that i dont see why thats an issue.
ps. no scan doesnt solve the problem, its PROXY void ray.
|
On October 09 2010 23:37 lizzuma wrote:
When they micro properly and come in precharged, any outside buildings you have are going to get absolutely fried. Then your marines are going to get fried.
this is why high-level terrans don't build outside buildings?
And to everyone talking about auto losses for Protoss when facing such and such a build, 1 or even 2 gate robo prepares adequately for almost all of them.
reactor first, 2nd baracks/techlab before factory for stim prepares adequately against void rays; no more free concussive-marauder-kills but far away from being a bad opening against standard robo play
|
Just watched the first replay. Gonna try out that strat PvT now! 
Now I don't know about this, but what if you left a scout by the destructable rocks? Or just generally out in front of your base at a range where a toss could reasonably keep the charge from without accidentally nuking his own army. When the push came, you had a reasonable number of rines and rauders and you had stim. What if you pushed out of your base when you saw the army + rays, stimmed up and nuked his ground army before the rays got a chance to charge up? If the toss has no ground army, he can't keep the charge up into your base, which negates the push.
I reckon if you had that prewarning by leaving the scout out, your stimmed MM would destroy his gateway units fast enough that the rays would be rendered moot. I'd try it and see but I need to reformat my PC due to BSODs :<
<-- high plat random
|
Build order advantages will always exist in every match up in every RTS.
I mean, is this a discussion on how to beat this build? Or a discussion on there being no cost effective response? Or a discussion on how it's rock paper scissors?
You can liken this build to 12 nexus in BW PvT. Protoss comes out ahead if Terran doesn't do a blind all in counter, but that's just the nature of RTS. Sounds like you'll just have to be at a deficit when playing against this opening with certain strategies.
|
why u did not throw a pdd on second game i'll never understand, the game was yours if u did,
as for first game u had improper scouting info, after the ff u ran back, u assume u were still fine and didnt require additional info. Watch high skill comp level gsl, mgl esl u name it, all terrans use scan, they use scan specifically when they tried an early push but got ffed to deny info
Basically vrays isn't OP you probably never got vraid before so you weren't used. I'm suprise u say you have semi well knowledge of toss coz ill say again
first game improper scout info
second game pdd and win
overall when see u vray rush, stick to w/e strat u had switch barracks into reactor pump rines. If your strat was already heavy ground then marine + stim + bunker should hold well enough, focus on vray first doesn't matter if stalker still alive, u can easily make maurauders after. vrays take a long time to cross over map, so he'll have to stick to stalker/zeal, both can be kited by rauders.
It's like when terrans know I'm going robo into collis and they do crazy 5-6 rax stuff trying to end game earlier b4 i hit my collis. Sure i'll take dmg, sure he's into my base but if the dude doesn't know what to focus i'll just have to suffer a bit of lost till I get my collis.
Watch how many times huk 1 base and still won, even when people are inside his base. So it's the same deal with vrays.
If you already went 1/1/1 then that raven pdd would save you, if u scouted properly u could have vikings instead of banshee like that 2nd game
IMO, I have to deal with rine/banshee/raven timing push I dont qq and say banshee or raven need nerf or is flawed. It's perfectly fine as it is. You just have to leanr to deal with it, same thing should go for you and the vrays.
|
On October 09 2010 23:56 Piy wrote:
Build order advantages will always exist in every match up in every RTS.
I mean, is this a discussion on how to beat this build? Or a discussion on there being no cost effective response? Or a discussion on how it's rock paper scissors?
You can liken this build to 12 nexus in BW PvT. Protoss comes out ahead if Terran doesn't do a blind all in counter, but that's just the nature of RTS. Sounds like you'll just have to be at a deficit when playing against this opening with certain strategies.
The problem is that 12 Nexus was a high risk high reward strategy, while the 3 gate VR build is relatively low risk with an extremely high upside (most times results in game over, not just a simple economy advantage)
|
On October 09 2010 23:56 Piy wrote:
I mean, is this a discussion on how to beat this build? Or a discussion on there being no cost effective response? Or a discussion on how it's rock paper scissors?
in fact it's a discussion whether or not protoss should be allowed to have a timing-attack-build vs terran that destroys terran when they don't scout it - which is quite funny if you think about it
all terran have to do is open either with reactor or go for fast vikings which counter both void rays and colossi; the argument that it's rock-paper-scissors is really ridiculous considering that terran can get basicly every unit very fast when they open 1/1/1; the only build that doesn't allow an easy adjustment is a fast expand - but wtf, should terran be allowed to safely fast expand against every build out there by default now?
On October 10 2010 00:00 lizzuma wrote:
while the 3 gate VR build is relatively low risk
plz explain to me how an all-in or a harassment-BO that is really hard to transition out of is "relatively low risk"?
|
Im sure the cauthon luck 2 marauder 1 marine 1 reaper opening can see this coming, atleast on some maps/positions.
|
It's relatively low risk because with a good proxy location and timing, it is nearly impossible to stop. And why can't you transition out of it? It's not like you're cutting probes, you've got 3 warp gates..I mean this attack will at least usually do heavy damage. It isn't a harassment build at all, it's designed to kill.
|
On October 09 2010 23:56 Woozyman wrote:
second game pdd and win
[/i][/b]
The VRs can shoot it down in seconds.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
