EPTThe only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build.
Void Rays in T v P - Design Flaw - Page 3
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
The only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
Especially when void-rays have speed, you can have sensor towers up, but even then they can fly in, charge up on buildings and become an unstoppable force in your base before you respond, even if you react immediately as soon as sensor tower detects it. If voidrays are changed the way linko suggests it, then they will still kill buildings fast, but they won't be able to take out the entire army that's coming back to rescue the base if they lose charge while switching targets. On the other hand, like I said before, a lot of micro potential of sustaining the charge will be thrown out of the game... Not sure what the best course of action here is. | ||
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mkfk1
United Kingdom153 Posts
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TymerA
Netherlands759 Posts
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klauz619
453 Posts
2 reactor barracks will prevent any funny business with his void rays, and he will have some problems with either the stalker/sentry count or detection if he goes this strat. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
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Selendis
Australia509 Posts
voids are not OP. stimmed marines just eat them like a fat kid eating a cheeseburger. also, may i emphasize the importance of scouting! If you see your opponent rushing void rays or even if its a slow transition to them then there's a wonderful attack window where they are behind in the unit count because of their investment in those stargates. | ||
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Panoptic
United Kingdom515 Posts
If I saw a replay maybe I would think: "crap that would be impossible to scout and adapt to from a standard build in time, as such I sincerely agree with the OP" or instead I might think: "No. I think this is do-able and doesn't warrant a balance change." Currently I don't know what to think because I can't really accurately visualise what you're describing. Of course I have a rough idea, but imo it's not enough. Replays give an accuracy and legitimacy that written text can't have. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
Lets face it, once that range nerf came in, void rays became a pretty weak unit vs marines. You really have to catch them off gaurd for them to be worth anything, or put them way in the back and hope your stalkers target the marines.. but with the SCV prioritizing attack bullshit, your stalkers act stupid and dont attack the marines (manually targetting 15+ marines with stalkers is not.. good) The economic hit you take by going voidrays AND stalkers, is so significant that they should overwhelm you unit wise.. Not to mention if they go starport early, 2-3 vikings in the back +marines can take them all out no problem. I normally only do this build vs 1000-1500 terrans who I know have macro/micro flaws, or maybe on Steppes of war since its so small.. any other terran, I know they will easily stop it. So if I lose doing this vs people like lzgamer, theres no reason you should lose to any protoss doing this assuming you really are 2000 like you say. | ||
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KaoReal
Canada340 Posts
On October 09 2010 17:14 Jaeger wrote: didn't jimpo destroy adel when he went for this 3 wargate proxy void ray thing vs 2rax techlab + reactor mmmg opening? yeah but adel microd it very poorly if this was the game on xel naga. im pretty sure he killed one of his own stalkers. the key to its success is the terran being walled up on his ramp so he cant fire effectively on you, and you can do some damage to his production or whatever while getting a good angle to fire on him. | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6788 Posts
Edited for spelling | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On October 09 2010 16:48 PhiliBiRD wrote: i completely agree, i discovered this many months ago... a strong void ray push IS UNSTOPPABLE without knowing its coming, and there really is no good way to know ahead of time. It's easy to defend against even with 1rax FE that I do every game, how is it more difficult with another build? Unless you try to like... mech vs Protoss. On October 09 2010 16:49 MayorITC wrote: 3 rax bio can hold it off. 1/1/1 can hold it off (granted you go viking first). The only real build that has a default build order loss is a FE Terran. But then again a Terran FE has HUGE advantage over protoss if the P player doesn't do damage. The main complaint seems to be that you have a very strong build versus Protoss except against 3 gate-star, but you want your build to be viable against every Protoss build. I must be missing something obvious because after 1rax FE I have like 8 marines with stim nearly done when the first void ray comes and it's easy to delay until you have stim, after which it's almost a free win. | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 09 2010 17:24 Shikyo wrote: It's easy to defend against even with 1rax FE that I do every game, how is it more difficult with another build? Unless you try to like... mech vs Protoss. I must be missing something obvious because after 1rax FE I have like 8 marines with stim nearly done when the first void ray comes and it's easy to delay until you have stim, after which it's almost a free win. Did you read the OP? He's not talking about a void ray rush, he's talking about a push with a handful of void rays and stalkers at the front. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On October 09 2010 17:30 PanzerKing wrote: Did you read the OP? He's not talking about a void ray rush, he's talking about a push with a handful of void rays and stalkers at the front. People started talking about proxy void rays afterwards though... I've actually encountered this build twice on Desert Oasis, but my standard MM army won with nothing but a-move... it actually works? | ||
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
On October 09 2010 17:31 Shikyo wrote: People started talking about proxy void rays afterwards though... I've actually encountered this build twice on Desert Oasis, but my standard MM army won with nothing but a-move... it actually works? WERE THE VOID RAYS PRE-CHARGED? Because if you A-move against that, you won't win. Twice now you've been called out for not reading the OP. Maybe you should just read the OP? | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
Voidray charge on ur natural + easy walk to ur wall and GG ;/ sucks alot... it FORCES u to go a super heavy marine build early | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
Get a reaper from your first tech lab rax and scout all the proxy locations (if you are any good you will do this anyway because of possible DTs), then sacrifice the reaper into their base and if you STILL dont know whats coming scan the parts of their base your reaper didnt get to see. If you play a decent BO you will have either a lot of bio or viking-tech close to done and can prepare for the all in. | ||
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
Since most people here arent at 2000 diamond, have you considered this strat becomes exponentially stronger at higher levels? I know I found reapers easy to deal with but that doesnt mean the strat isnt overpowered at pro level. This thread is an example to me at least of why we need some kind of higher level forum. Low ranked diamonds such as myself will have no idea whether this is imbalanced because their opponents will not have the positioning, the smarter hiding of stargate, the micro to keep the void charge up etc. This thread has no capacity for input by lesser skilled players as far as i can tell. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On October 09 2010 17:22 KaoReal wrote: yeah but adel microd it very poorly if this was the game on xel naga. im pretty sure he killed one of his own stalkers. the key to its success is the terran being walled up on his ramp so he cant fire effectively on you, and you can do some damage to his production or whatever while getting a good angle to fire on him. It was on kulas ravine | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
However after that the terran bio ball will include marauders with concussive shells and stim, at which point they will kite your stalkers and the stim marines+viking micro can finish off the void rays. I think the OP just sucks at stutter step micro. If you're really having trouble, just build a turret at your choke. then laugh as you dance around the one turret that kills all the void rays that aren't targeting it. | ||
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