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On August 29 2011 14:16 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 07:56 Beyond Magic wrote:
heya, im playing Z and usually against P i start with 15 pool 15 gas, and then either 16 or 21 hatch.
sometimes when P players are doing FFE, they just place pylon and 2 cannons behind my naturals mineral line(when i haven't even started to build my hatch) around the same time as my pool gets ready, if i don't go there they cancel the 2nd cannon and leave 1.
How should i react to this, i can't get lings fast enough to interrupt the cannon building and i don't think pulling a lot of drones to interrupt that is such a good idea when only few can hit the buildings from each side, sometimes they start building more pylons to cover the cannons and cancel them when cannons are ready.
if he decides to leave 2 cannons there i have to mass a lot of lings until i can take them down, specially when they are between wall and minerals.
You should have an overlord looking for things like that. It is very worth it to take 4 drones to kill the cannon. Its better to take down the cannons with drones then let them get up and instead of droning you are making tons of lings to kill them. That is what I would do if I were you.
thx for the tips, i always keep my 2nd overlord at my natural to spot possible cannon rushes.
do you think drones are enough if he builds the 1st cannon between 2 pylons, in some maps the areas behind nat mineral lines are quite small and you can "wall of" the 1 cannon quite well with temporary pylons/other cannons.
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On August 29 2011 14:14 Nightbiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 07:27 blinkblue wrote:
How do I respond to a Forge FE on close positions shattered temple? I am pretty much FORCED to do some sort of early all-in since it's going to be virtually impossible for me to take a 3rd, correct?
Is there any real "build order" to help me with this after scouting it? If he goes FFE, there's a VERY powerful timing you can do as Zerg, which will pretty much always work, but it takes no skill. Basically, macro up like crazy. Get you expansion as usual, then at 4:50 or so, throw down a macro hatch in your main. Make only drones until about 8:30-9:00 (earlier if you suspect a push) and then just start spamming roaches. If you push out at around the 13:00 minute mark, you will overpower him with pure roaches.
You're playing bad opponents.
And to the person you quoted, you should just do the stupidest all in you can find. Close positions shattered is completely imbalanced and you don't need to train it for any tourneys so I'd just throw the game away and not waste time playing it.
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On August 29 2011 18:12 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 14:14 Nightbiscuit wrote:On August 29 2011 07:27 blinkblue wrote:
How do I respond to a Forge FE on close positions shattered temple? I am pretty much FORCED to do some sort of early all-in since it's going to be virtually impossible for me to take a 3rd, correct?
Is there any real "build order" to help me with this after scouting it? If he goes FFE, there's a VERY powerful timing you can do as Zerg, which will pretty much always work, but it takes no skill. Basically, macro up like crazy. Get you expansion as usual, then at 4:50 or so, throw down a macro hatch in your main. Make only drones until about 8:30-9:00 (earlier if you suspect a push) and then just start spamming roaches. If you push out at around the 13:00 minute mark, you will overpower him with pure roaches. You're playing bad opponents.
Well, in terms of supply they are pretty much on par with all the pros. Also, it's pretty much the standard response to FFE, the difference being that you just put the third hatchery in your main instead of at the natural. It makes a subtle difference, but there's still nothing the Protoss player can do if he doesn't put some pressure on you before the 9 minute mark, and even then you are still in a pretty good position.
If you watch Naniwa vs Coca Game 2 from the latest MLG, you see exactly what I'm talking about. But perhaps Naniwa is also a bad player, losing to builds like that?
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ok heres my question
Coca vs Bomber
Coca lands perfect banelingrunbys and in the end of the game he killed over 50 scvs ... AND LOSES
how the hell can that happen?
isnt that just what zerg has to do to win?
Coca delayed the third of bomber 3 times, killed the cc twice, killed 50 workers, went baneling muta ling against marine tank which is absolutly right and loses ... mules op?
i dont know guys ... that does not seem right to me
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On August 29 2011 18:12 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 14:14 Nightbiscuit wrote:On August 29 2011 07:27 blinkblue wrote:
How do I respond to a Forge FE on close positions shattered temple? I am pretty much FORCED to do some sort of early all-in since it's going to be virtually impossible for me to take a 3rd, correct?
Is there any real "build order" to help me with this after scouting it? If he goes FFE, there's a VERY powerful timing you can do as Zerg, which will pretty much always work, but it takes no skill. Basically, macro up like crazy. Get you expansion as usual, then at 4:50 or so, throw down a macro hatch in your main. Make only drones until about 8:30-9:00 (earlier if you suspect a push) and then just start spamming roaches. If you push out at around the 13:00 minute mark, you will overpower him with pure roaches. You're playing bad opponents. And to the person you quoted, you should just do the stupidest all in you can find. Close positions shattered is completely imbalanced and you don't need to train it for any tourneys so I'd just throw the game away and not waste time playing it.
This is nonsense, it's true that close positions on temple shuts down a lot of your options but you can adapt to the situation and try to make the best of it. When playing close distances you have to factor in that you can't make units on reaction to him moving out meaning you must be updated about the size of his army as much as possible and have enough to stop him. You can choose to be very aggressive as the short distances make roaches a very good choice since it doesn't take them forever to walk across the map. One thing is that once you attack him, you don't have to feel obligated mash roaches/lings until he dies, you can sneak in drones while you pressure your opponent - just make sure you have enough to defend if he counters.
Actually it is very good to attack your opponent without thinking that you must kill him, thinning out his army makes it much more manageable when he does move out, since often you won't be able to make enough in one round of larvae to reinforce your existing army. More importantly it lets you keep track of his actual army size since he'll have to show his forces to defend, as lings and overlords often get sniped before they see the whole thing.
One good thing about close pos is that it's very easy to get an overlord to your opponents base so you should never really be surprised by anything. If he goes FFE I feel much better since I know that he can't threaten you with anything for awhile so I can drone freely. Regarding taking a 3rd, there is no problem with taking one far away, since he won't be able to attack it with the bulk of his army due to the risk of your counter - you just have to be very diligent about keeping track of the probes leaving his base and checking for pylons.
+ Show Spoiler +Close ZvT though you might as well gg ^^ /onlysemijoking
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In masters ZvP, after I get my third started and P comes in to start harassing with stargate units, my macro seems to falter greatly. I get supply blocked, minerals sky rocket, etc. This leads me to be susceptible to some heavy gateway pressure. Any advice on fixing this leak or just more practice?
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On August 30 2011 01:08 HelloSon wrote:
In masters ZvP, after I get my third started and P comes in to start harassing with stargate units, my macro seems to falter greatly. I get supply blocked, minerals sky rocket, etc. This leads me to be susceptible to some heavy gateway pressure. Any advice on fixing this leak or just more practice?
(I'm diamond, but) I'm assuming its not your mechanics failing as much it is the pressure being applied and killing your ovies, and causing all your troubles. I think creep spread + queens is good vs this kind of pressure (especially voids, phoenix are harder to catch). I try to have a 3rd queen relatively early for creep spread, I usually have it almost all the way to my 3rd by the time its up (obviously depends on map).
Also, I have 1 spore per base. If i see stargate units, i try to clump up my ovies above it.
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Hi guys,
I really need some help against 2 rax bunker rush. They can come in a lot of different times depending on the map.
Assuming I go pool first, they can come around the time when my hatch is 3/4 done OR they could delay it but have a lot more marines and scvs for bunkers while my hatch is done.
Or if I went hatch first, it can come when my pool is 3/4 done (I think).
Some terran will start building bunkers as soon as they have one marine while some will wait until they have around three marines.
Can someone post some 2 rax bunker rush defend replay? Most preferably the ones at around plat and above level.
Also about scv+marine all-in, is it any way to scout it? In some maps, by the time you see he pushes out, it is too late for setting up spines, even if you have a perfect scout.
And about 5 or 6 rax, I find banelings almost impossible to hit the marines if they can micro their marines. How can I actually defend it? Marines just melt everything on their way.
(yes, I lose to a lot of all-ins...kind of suck to be at lower league)
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Do you need raoches to stop a 4 gate? Or just speedlings? I had speedlings but still lost..the toss was not even cutting probes!
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On August 30 2011 04:41 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Do you need raoches to stop a 4 gate? Or just speedlings? I had speedlings but still lost..the toss was not even cutting probes!
yes, against good 4gate you need roaches and 2-4 spines are nice to have.
if you know for sure it's a 4 gate rush, dont hesitate to get a lot of spines because if you beat the rush, you've won the game basicly.
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Really frustrated with something lately.
How do you all deal with opponents that know how desperately Zerg needs to see what's coming? The type of opponent I'm talking about knows where your OLs will be (generally because you have little choice) and sets up a patrol there. You sacrifice an OL for zero info because they've also hidden their tech.
I just lost a game to a guy who had stalkers stopping my OL scouts. The front door poke with a ling revealed 2 zealots and 2 sentry. There were 2 stalkers killing the OL scouts. Mere minutes later, he's doing a 1-base, 3-gate, 1-starport push. I got slammed by sentry, zealot, stalker, and about 3 VRs. I didn't even know you could get that much stuff off one-base.
From what I saw, it looked like a 3 gate sentry expand. Totally wrong.
So, any tips for dealing with players who go balls-out to stop your scouting, or should I just blind counter air by dropping spores anyhow? (not sure they'd have helped at that point, I needed Hydra).
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After some testing with my friend, i feel completely crashed with this build - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=248158.
A simple TvZ timing that transitions nicely to mech, but whenever i transition into roaches, my friend simply transitions into Marine Tank standard play which, like the gosus you people are known for, wrecks roach play. i am here to ask a simple question, it is possible to stay on ling bling to beat this push? The solution don't need to be close to cost effective, it just feels awful when you have to go roach against terran : [
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On August 29 2011 17:41 Beyond Magic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 14:16 blade55555 wrote:On August 29 2011 07:56 Beyond Magic wrote:
heya, im playing Z and usually against P i start with 15 pool 15 gas, and then either 16 or 21 hatch.
sometimes when P players are doing FFE, they just place pylon and 2 cannons behind my naturals mineral line(when i haven't even started to build my hatch) around the same time as my pool gets ready, if i don't go there they cancel the 2nd cannon and leave 1.
How should i react to this, i can't get lings fast enough to interrupt the cannon building and i don't think pulling a lot of drones to interrupt that is such a good idea when only few can hit the buildings from each side, sometimes they start building more pylons to cover the cannons and cancel them when cannons are ready.
if he decides to leave 2 cannons there i have to mass a lot of lings until i can take them down, specially when they are between wall and minerals.
You should have an overlord looking for things like that. It is very worth it to take 4 drones to kill the cannon. Its better to take down the cannons with drones then let them get up and instead of droning you are making tons of lings to kill them. That is what I would do if I were you. thx for the tips, i always keep my 2nd overlord at my natural to spot possible cannon rushes. do you think drones are enough if he builds the 1st cannon between 2 pylons, in some maps the areas behind nat mineral lines are quite small and you can "wall of" the 1 cannon quite well with temporary pylons/other cannons.
Honestly I always follow a probe with a drone, if I see he's going to be sneaky with the pylons to block so nothing gets in I will put a drone on hold position there.
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I'm having a hard time knowing what to do mid-late game when not being pressured vs Terran.
That is, if we're in the midgame, and I'm getting pressured, I know what to do - I build the units that I need to kill whatever he's throwing at me, and with all extra resources I'm expanding/upgrading/droning. Sometimes he wins, and sometimes I win, but in general I feel good about trading armies, because as long as I can keep my economy strong, my army comes back faster than his.
But I'm not sure what to do when, say, I'm on strong 3 base and the Terran is either on 2 or 3 bases, and not throwing units at me. I generally feel like a Terran has such a good defensive position that I don't want to attack into him, even though I tend towards a more "muscular" army - roach/ling/infestor. So I end up maxxed with a billion roaches and lings, and a bunch of infestors, maybe with 4-5 bases. Sometimes I win if I happen to crush the max army that he ends up sending much later, and sometimes I lose, but in general I don't feel like I know what I should be doing. I feel weird with a max roach/ling/army because I feel like it's getting weaker and weaker as time goes on, but I don't know how to force an army trade since the Terran is so cost-efficient when turtled up and sieged.
Should I tech up to brood lords and start donating roaches to his siege? Or is my predicament (that I maxxed out on roaches) indicative that I should have teched up much earlier and filled my last 20-30 supply with something badder-ass? Should I start freeing up drone supply by building spines everywhere? etc.
Oh, and I'm Platinum.
Thanks.
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Hi, I just wanted to ask, from my replay analysis, in the average game (let's say a 15min game) I've spent double the amount of minerals and gas than my opponent, as well as that, my produced supply is always higher by a signifigant amount too. This is a common theme in all of my games, I don't see myself having bad engagements as such in some games, but still, I'll lose.
I was wondering if anyone had some good tips for me to actually use my money better, or is there something I'm not doing that I should be doing, could it be that I'm just not making the proper use of my army by not microing/flanking enough? Any suggestions/tips would be really helpful, thanks.
I'm in platinum right now, recently been playing a few diamond level players.
Some replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?hm1nby9lbbst1ic
http://www.mediafire.com/?uukdx35ywkd81fn
http://www.mediafire.com/?qocjb2o1wmjm6da
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On August 30 2011 12:58 Mjolnir wrote:
Really frustrated with something lately.
How do you all deal with opponents that know how desperately Zerg needs to see what's coming? The type of opponent I'm talking about knows where your OLs will be (generally because you have little choice) and sets up a patrol there. You sacrifice an OL for zero info because they've also hidden their tech.
I just lost a game to a guy who had stalkers stopping my OL scouts. The front door poke with a ling revealed 2 zealots and 2 sentry. There were 2 stalkers killing the OL scouts. Mere minutes later, he's doing a 1-base, 3-gate, 1-starport push. I got slammed by sentry, zealot, stalker, and about 3 VRs. I didn't even know you could get that much stuff off one-base.
From what I saw, it looked like a 3 gate sentry expand. Totally wrong.
So, any tips for dealing with players who go balls-out to stop your scouting, or should I just blind counter air by dropping spores anyhow? (not sure they'd have helped at that point, I needed Hydra).
You can stop that push without Hydras, you just need additional Queens.
For one, you had scouting information. 2 Stalkers killing OL scouts that early almost completely rules out a Sentry expand. If you're trying to save up enough minerals for a Nexus, you make Sentries, not Stalkers. In addition to that, you have to keep a ling presence at his natural. He may try to fake the Nexus by keeping Zealot/Sentry at the bottom of his ramp, but run in and out with that ling every few seconds to see if he is actually expanding.
The longer he doesn't expand the more you should expect shenanigans. With 2 Stakers/2 Sentries it's probably not DT's, so Stargate is your next option on the list. As long as you get a good Roach count, that push can be held with 3-4 Queens as long as you focus the VR's and stay on top of your transfuses.
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On August 30 2011 04:41 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Do you need raoches to stop a 4 gate? Or just speedlings? I had speedlings but still lost..the toss was not even cutting probes!
As soon as I scout the 4gate, I make around 10-15 lings which I hide near his base.
When I see his moving out, I try to counter with the lings or take the forward pylon out. (since they take a probe with their army most of the time). This will give you enough time to make units at home.
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On August 27 2011 13:34 Nightbiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 12:55 HenryZ wrote:First, I would really appreciate it if someone could help me out with my 2 rax defense. Apparently, I am terrible at defending 2 rax on close position when I hatch first, can someone watch these replays and enlighten me?  Personally, when I scout his 2 rax, I will send two drones to prevent him from throwing down a bunker in my mineral line. Then I'll create six lings, throw down two spine crawlers at my expo (not in range of the bunkers) and start two queens. Then I'll just drone up. When my spine crawlers finish, I put them close to one of his bunkers and then I just take em down, not using lings or queen unless necessary. It works very well vs mid-master terrans. Not sure how well it would do against GM terrans, but it really gives you a better economy then just spamming lings. Especially if he goes hellions after that.
2 spine crawlers + 6 lings + early pulling drones all seems like pretty massive overkill unless this is some sort of proxy early rax cheese. Pulling 6-8 drones + 4-6 lings should be enough to hold it off imo. At least that's how I do it. I only put down the spine if I think I have time for it to finish (unlikely) or think a bunker is gunna get up (try to avoid this).
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On August 30 2011 23:48 Karak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:34 Nightbiscuit wrote:On August 27 2011 12:55 HenryZ wrote:First, I would really appreciate it if someone could help me out with my 2 rax defense. Apparently, I am terrible at defending 2 rax on close position when I hatch first, can someone watch these replays and enlighten me? Personally, when I scout his 2 rax, I will send two drones to prevent him from throwing down a bunker in my mineral line. Then I'll create six lings, throw down two spine crawlers at my expo (not in range of the bunkers) and start two queens. Then I'll just drone up. When my spine crawlers finish, I put them close to one of his bunkers and then I just take em down, not using lings or queen unless necessary. It works very well vs mid-master terrans. Not sure how well it would do against GM terrans, but it really gives you a better economy then just spamming lings. Especially if he goes hellions after that. 2 spine crawlers + 6 lings + early pulling drones all seems like pretty massive overkill unless this is some sort of proxy early rax cheese. Pulling 6-8 drones + 4-6 lings should be enough to hold it off imo. At least that's how I do it. I only put down the spine if I think I have time for it to finish (unlikely) or think a bunker is gunna get up (try to avoid this).
Dude, if it's a commited 2 rax and he gets his bunkers up, there's no way in hell 6-8 drones and 4-6 lings are gonna be able to do anything, except die. If he plays good, commits to the rush and knows what he's doing, you're going to have a really hard time preventing him from getting that bunker up.
And no, two spine crawlers and 6 lings is not in anyway overkill (I fail to see your logic here, since bringing 6-8 drones is going to cost you about the same amount of minerals). In fact, it's as frail as it can possibly be against a commited 2 rax, without being too frail.
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hey whats the best unit composition to deal with a large army of thors and tanks and marines. i try to use infestors and updgraded lings but they just get toasted. it also doesnt help that my neural parasite control is terrible and i always seem to lose my infestors before the neural goes off. should i just rush into brood lords if i see thors coming out of the terran base and have lings on ground to slow them down?
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EPT
