EPTalso, when should i specifically get my roach warren if the terran is opening reactor helion
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 85
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CeliosB
Canada100 Posts
also, when should i specifically get my roach warren if the terran is opening reactor helion | ||
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
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Midori8
Australia126 Posts
What did I do wrong? I'm in Gold league. I saw it coming and had what seemed like a pretty good engagement, but I barely did anything. Should I have pulled back and engaged later? It seemed that the open space would be a better position for me to engage. | ||
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CeliosB
Canada100 Posts
On September 04 2011 15:07 Xalonark wrote: ZvP 5 Gate trouble (and some rage) - http://www.mediafire.com/?g78xlwxqu17teq8 What did I do wrong? I'm in Gold league. I saw it coming and had what seemed like a pretty good engagement, but I barely did anything. Should I have pulled back and engaged later? It seemed that the open space would be a better position for me to engage. First of all, this doesnt have anything to do with the 5 gate but you shouldnt go hatch first on sp cause there is a good chance he went forge first and he can just cannon you in. as for the 5 gate you had 1000 minerals in the bank all you needed to do is throw down 3-4 spines and a macro hatch in the main and you would have been fine. also, you put your guys back in gas a little to late and you never actually started lair. but yeah if you would have spent that money you would have been fine. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On September 04 2011 12:45 curtdisis wrote: hey everyone, ive been having trouble in zvt on (mostly) xel naga especially. i am a diamond zerg and it seems like i can not defend when my opponent opens and commits to helion harass. i dont feel like i can sim city and just make lings because the natural is so wide open and i feel like if i go roaches he can do whatever he wants because he has so much map control and i still have to tech to mutas. also, when should i specifically get my roach warren if the terran is opening reactor helion Let me make your life a bit easier here. Almost every terran you meet on ladder is blind countering muta/ling/baneling. The only time I can ever justify going mutas against a terran lately is if they open with banshees or a lot of marauders. Roaches hard counter hellions. So they are the obvious choice. There's a few reasons people fail with roach play against terran even when the terran goes for hellions. Number 1 reason is they can't attack at all. Sieged tanks and bunkers will mow down roaches like no tommorow. Number 2 reason they don't get the passive scouting that mutas give you. When you have mutas running around you know whats going on. So my suggestion is roaches/nydus/overlord speed/burrow. And eventually infestors. Get overlord drop if he has to many siege tanks and not many marines. Everyone shies away from using nydus because they think you're supposed to set it up and send your whole army through to end the game. That rarely ever works. Instead what you should do is use it to move around quickly. Split the terrans forces up and keep him in his base. Force him to use scans. Kill workers and buildings if possible. And get ready for him to all in you once he feels backed into a corner. They can rarely ever take a third base or do any significant harrassment of their own without dying. Here's a replay http://www.mediafire.com/?uxi4309cbfc3vap. It's masters around 900 points on xel'naga. With reactor hellion opening the first 2 hellions come around 5:30. Sometimes slightly sooner. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
should I adapt, by getting speed earlier than against a protoss forge fast expand? even a safety roach warren? especially when there is an open natural... Thanks for the answer, or if someone could link to an actual game of destiny (or any high level zerg), that would be really nice... Macpo | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
In my opinion if you do this build and then see that the protoss hasn't forge expanded you should start getting zergling speed asap. Often the best way to deal with an aggressive protoss is just threatening a counter attack. It takes a lot less lings to kill his probes then it does to defend a full on attack. And if you deny scouting he can never be sure how much you actually have. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
I'm asking all this because I'm trying to become more active with my zerglings. So basically, tips on how to effectively counter-attack? This doesn't even have to be with only lings. Sometimes I see pro players take their entire force and just attack the opponent. Is this advisable? | ||
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CeliosB
Canada100 Posts
On September 05 2011 05:32 ManiacTheZealot wrote: Let me make your life a bit easier here. Almost every terran you meet on ladder is blind countering muta/ling/baneling. The only time I can ever justify going mutas against a terran lately is if they open with banshees or a lot of marauders. Roaches hard counter hellions. So they are the obvious choice. There's a few reasons people fail with roach play against terran even when the terran goes for hellions. Number 1 reason is they can't attack at all. Sieged tanks and bunkers will mow down roaches like no tommorow. Number 2 reason they don't get the passive scouting that mutas give you. When you have mutas running around you know whats going on. So my suggestion is roaches/nydus/overlord speed/burrow. And eventually infestors. Get overlord drop if he has to many siege tanks and not many marines. Everyone shies away from using nydus because they think you're supposed to set it up and send your whole army through to end the game. That rarely ever works. Instead what you should do is use it to move around quickly. Split the terrans forces up and keep him in his base. Force him to use scans. Kill workers and buildings if possible. And get ready for him to all in you once he feels backed into a corner. They can rarely ever take a third base or do any significant harrassment of their own without dying. Here's a replay http://www.mediafire.com/?uxi4309cbfc3vap. It's masters around 900 points on xel'naga. With reactor hellion opening the first 2 hellions come around 5:30. Sometimes slightly sooner. i just tried this but i got roaches out (it was on shakuras) and then i had pure roaches for the 10 minute tank/marine push and i just got destroyed cause roaches suck vs tanks | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On September 05 2011 07:29 KimJongChill wrote: How do you guys counterattack in zvp/zvt? In zvz, it's fairly simple, since everything is so open, but in the other two match-ups, I'm never really sure how many lings to send in, since I'm always worried that the opponent will just ignore it and push and kill me. How far away do you wait for opponents to move across the map before countering? I'm asking all this because I'm trying to become more active with my zerglings. So basically, tips on how to effectively counter-attack? This doesn't even have to be with only lings. Sometimes I see pro players take their entire force and just attack the opponent. Is this advisable? Counter-attacking is a way to punish dumb pushes, so it's difficult to set a rule for doing it when, if your opponent was playing perfectly, it shouldn't happen. Basically you want to wait for the instant that their push stops covering a certain vulnerability, then drill that vulnerability. For example, say it's horizontal upper positions on Typhon peaks. I take my third at the horizontal natural, and terran decides to push that. The instant that force moves from center to the lower half of the map, it stops covering the terran's natural, so I send my control group of lings to my opponent's natural and trade base for base. As for how much to send, you want to think about the roles of your units in your goal composition. For example, the way I think about it most of the time, lings are going to be worthless in most direct engagements vs protoss (with the playstyles I use, anyways). So I keep every single ling I make on a separate hotkey and I'm ready to punish dumbness. This also can change depending on your hotkey setup, mine is: 1- active ground (lings, in the above scenario) 2- core ground (roaches mostly, or banes in ZvT) 3- support unit 1 (Mutalisks or infestors, depending) 4- support unit 2 (baneling bombs vP, Brood lords vT) So basically my ctrl+1 is my fragile ground units, so that is entirely set aside for counter attacks. Holy crap this answer is long, hope it was as equally helpful. On September 05 2011 07:39 curtdisis wrote: i just tried this but i got roaches out (it was on shakuras) and then i had pure roaches for the 10 minute tank/marine push and i just got destroyed cause roaches suck vs tanks If you're going for a tier one based fast third kind of play, then you should have banes out by the time a 2 base tank/stim timing hits. Chances are that the marines were more the issue than the tanks, so proper bane control and patience can solve this problem. Now, I don't particularly recommend the suggested strategy, but I suppose I'm not one to argue because ZvT is my worst match-up. Maniac's main point was that terrans will preemptively prepare for mutalisks, my counter argument is that muta/ling/bane is just so solid if used properly that it shouldn't matter. | ||
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CeliosB
Canada100 Posts
you cant just go muta/ling/bane/ because if you dont make roaches on xel naga you have to literally control your lings perfectly | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
i just tried this but i got roaches out (it was on shakuras) and then i had pure roaches for the 10 minute tank/marine push and i just got destroyed cause roaches suck vs tanks You should upload the replay for further assistance. You messed up somewhere though roaches don't have to much trouble taking out marine/tank unless the tanks get sieged up right in front of your base. Any early push should be stoppable. Later on you'll have infestors or banelings and you can use drop. Now, I don't particularly recommend the suggested strategy, but I suppose I'm not one to argue because ZvT is my worst match-up. Maniac's main point was that terrans will preemptively prepare for mutalisks, my counter argument is that muta/ling/bane is just so solid if used properly that it shouldn't matter. Theoretically yes, muta ling baneling should be solid enough to deal with anything but only in the hands of extremely good players. It's much simpler to deal with builds that are designed to kill mutas by just going roaches. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On September 05 2011 07:50 curtdisis wrote: you cant just go muta/ling/bane/ because if you dont make roaches on xel naga you have to literally control your lings perfectly Well, that doesn't mean you can't make roaches. Muta/ling/bane is a goal composition, not an arbitrary restriction. If terran's opener forces you to respond with roaches then make roaches, nothing says you can't. | ||
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Saint131
30 Posts
Against a Protoss, I usually put down a 14/15 hatchery because I like the feel of an extra base and I like making speedlings to defend against early pressure from Protoss excluding stargate play, of course. I am seeing more and more Protoss putting down a pylon at my natural if their scout is there before I put down my hatchery. Would it be a safe bet to switch to 14 Gas 14 pool, (and would it have the same economy as an early expand) or would you suggest another type of opening. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:03 Saint131 wrote: Hi, I'm a mid platinum level player (sorry about my noobiness) and I was just wondering about opening in ZvP. Against a Protoss, I usually put down a 14/15 hatchery because I like the feel of an extra base and I like making speedlings to defend against early pressure from Protoss excluding stargate play, of course. I am seeing more and more Protoss putting down a pylon at my natural if their scout is there before I put down my hatchery. Would it be a safe bet to switch to 14 Gas 14 pool, (and would it have the same economy as an early expand) or would you suggest another type of opening. 14/14/15 is the most cookie-cutter, standard thing in ZvP. I suggest opening 14 gas 14 pool and send the drone out to make the 15 hatch. If you get pylon blocked, then just pull the drone back and expand after you get your lings to kill the pylon (should be 21 supply). You are behind in larva in this case, but it really isn't a big deal. | ||
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Igotpwned
United States14 Posts
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:03 Saint131 wrote: Hi, I'm a mid platinum level player (sorry about my noobiness) and I was just wondering about opening in ZvP. Against a Protoss, I usually put down a 14/15 hatchery because I like the feel of an extra base and I like making speedlings to defend against early pressure from Protoss excluding stargate play, of course. I am seeing more and more Protoss putting down a pylon at my natural if their scout is there before I put down my hatchery. Would it be a safe bet to switch to 14 Gas 14 pool, (and would it have the same economy as an early expand) or would you suggest another type of opening. I actually favor a 14 pool 15 hatch with delayed gas. You don't really need early ling speed in most cases, and the extra mineral income can help in taking an early third if you see your opponent has a FE of some kind. Lately if I get hatch blocked, I throw a second hatch down at my third location, kill the pylon and throw down a third at my nat. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 05 2011 14:18 Igotpwned wrote: I am a master zerg and I have been starting to doubt zerg is the race for me. I have been playing zerg from the start and I am realizing that I am having trouble when to figure out when I can safely drone hard, or when I can't. I understand its based mainly on scouting, but within the first 6 minutes of the game how hard should I drone? I like to play an aggressive zerg as well, is this the wrong way to play zerg? Are there any aggressive zerg builds? Also, I have stopped playing close to the end of season. Could someone please tell me the most optimal FE openings for each match up including gas timings? well its possible to be aggressive with zerg but races like terran are better at aggression then zerg if thats your main style. I mean if you don't like zerg just switch. But most soptimal FE openings. zvt: 15 hatch zvp: 14 pool/16 hatch is very common without getting gas until like your spawning pool finishes zvz: 14/14 or hatch first is still most common. Well, that doesn't mean you can't make roaches. Muta/ling/bane is a goal composition, not an arbitrary restriction. If terran's opener forces you to respond with roaches then make roaches, nothing says you can't. This, I always make about 6 roaches in zvt (because every terran on korean server goes blue flame hellion anyway and a lot of terrans in general open hellions). You don't have to go heavy roach and you don't have to upgrade roaches. You still can go muta/ling/bane just fine I don't get why people feel like if they make roaches they have to commit to them xD. I see even higher tier zergs do this they make roaches but then fully commit which is imo bad most of the time. | ||
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nicke10
Sweden114 Posts
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houstil
France57 Posts
My BO looks like that : 10 scout 15 hatch 16 pool 18 gas (3 drones on it) 17 ov 18 2 queen 22 1 ling (optional, used as secondary scout) 25-26 roach warren 28 2 overlord 7-8 roaches when rw pop drone as much as possible after that The last 2 roaches should stay on your base for helping queens to deny hellion harass. Pressure with the rest. Your goal is mainly to scout the terran and punish him if he is too greedy (pure marine hellion expo without bunker should take heavy damage). If he is going bio with marauder don't lose the roaches, just delay the expo. If you scout banshee split the roaches to not lose them all, build evo chamber, third queen and lair asap. My follow up versus standard play (ie reactore hellion expo into marine tank) is to get ling speed then armor upgrade or baneling nest first depending on much the terran is aggressive. I use a roach ling baneling on tier 1 to defend the first marine tank push. I get an early third queen for a good creep spread and to be able to defend my quick third (env 7 min) without the roach and bane speed upgrades. The weaknesses of this low tech macro play are banshees (which you should scout with the roaches pressure) and viking-drop play (split your army on each bases, get mutas asap). If the terran is as greedy as you (tacking a quick third) you can try to out-maneuver him using drop play then attacking the third (roaches and banes are very good drop meat, especially with burrow). The strength of roach ling banes is it's versatility (it's good against pretty much any ground composition, except mass tank) and it's survivability (after a good engagement you should always have some roaches left). But you shouldn't stick on this compo for too long. You will eventually need a pack of mutas to deny drops. And as the game progress roaches become less and less efficient (they take too much supply and you can't really afford to upgrade their attack). So usually my game plan is : raoches -> roach s-ling bane -> s-roach s-ling s-bane -> optional drop play -> add some mutas -> add some infesters -> get broods or ultra depending on the map for the ultimate compo I add a second evo when armor-melee level 1 are completed and try to get continual upgrades. Hope this help your roach play  . | ||
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