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The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 84

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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
DW-Unrec
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
492 Posts
August 30 2011 22:11 GMT
#1661
How did I lose this game?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Tal'darim Altar LE (2).SC2Replay

He FE, i crushed his expo, i had more drones, more units, more tech, then i just died. I have no idea WTF went wrong.
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
August 30 2011 22:22 GMT
#1662
On August 31 2011 07:11 DW-Unrec wrote:
How did I lose this game?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Tal'darim Altar LE (2).SC2Replay

He FE, i crushed his expo, i had more drones, more units, more tech, then i just died. I have no idea WTF went wrong.

Seemed pretty obvious to me... You lost your entire army because you over-committed, and then droned behind no army. On top of that, you expanded behind not having an army, and floated 400/300 when your opponent's counter attack came, To sum it up, in ZvZ droneing is almost never safe unless both players have an established roach count, especially when you don't have an army.
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
TolEranceNA
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada434 Posts
August 31 2011 00:32 GMT
#1663
After some testing with my friend, i feel completely crashed with this build - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=248158.

A simple TvZ timing that transitions nicely to mech, but whenever i transition into roaches, my friend simply transitions into Marine Tank standard play which, like the gosus you people are known for, wrecks roach play. i am here to ask a simple question, it is possible to stay on ling bling to beat this push? The solution don't need to be close to cost effective, it just feels awful when you have to go roach against terran : [
Arotsis:"Nestea, what do you think about Zerg?" Nestea:"...Sad."
Bassmasta79
Profile Joined August 2011
United States9 Posts
August 31 2011 04:34 GMT
#1664
hey can some1 help me with my ZvZ. i have been having some trouble lately with it (high level gold). i tried to go for a roach rush this particular game but it just didnt work can you guys look at the replay and tell me how to improve?

http://www.mediafire.com/?e78z1i001w1vhzk
Trippy380
Profile Joined May 2011
Brazil14 Posts
August 31 2011 05:36 GMT
#1665
Hey mates, I feel that in ZvT I am always gas starved and, as a result, I have a surplus on minerals (yeah, better injects would help indeed, I am working on them), but how do you guys dump minerals when you don't have as much gas income as the mineral spending? At first I thought about expos/macro hatches but still, it both feels fragile as it feels that, since I don't have the gas to support it, I don't produce as much as possible. I was thinking what about getting more queens but didn't see a reason for that(I usually go 3, 4 queens per game). Supposing a better player than me, how would you guys spend the mineral surplus?
Peace.
Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy.
ECA.BruTATroN
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States282 Posts
August 31 2011 05:49 GMT
#1666
@bassmasta79

Try a 14 pool 13 gas drone to 15 gas till 200, get speed plus +1 attack for mele, try to expo around 20ish and just mass lings, they will usually crush any roach build or ling build, but if u see oppenent go banes try to manuever around the banes to his minerals.
http://www.twitch.tv/brutatron
logic.k
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany5 Posts
August 31 2011 18:12 GMT
#1667
hey guys,

So:
PvZ
Tal Darim Altar
Cross position

He does FFE, I go 3base and try to survive. When i scout, i can see 6 gates + twilight council.
First question here: Can i Punish this sumhow? I managed to snipe his 3rd with a ling counter, but got rolled in lategame ..

See yourself:
http://www.file-upload.net/download-3702511/Tal-darim-Altar-LE--14-.SC2Replay.html
Mjolnir
Profile Joined January 2009
912 Posts
August 31 2011 18:24 GMT
#1668

Not sure if this is too "in depth" a request for this thread but here goes:

I'm having a tonne of trouble with Protoss. I think - no, I know - I need to improve my macro because late game, they will run over me. Thing is, when I talk to my opponents and ask for tips, they say, "harass more."

So here's my issue. How the hell do I harass when I'm droning like mad just to match them in worker count? And how to I harass when I'm trying to fit tech and army in with those drones? Drop play seems to come at a point where they can easily stop it (warp ins, blink, yadda, yadda). Nydus play is a joke to shut down.

This leaves me with earlier pressure. So perhaps I need to hit earlier to try to damage them, then go back to droning. So here's the question:

Can anyone please give me some build orders to strike first (roach/ling, hydra, etc.) against...

FFE*
3 Gate Sentry Expand
6 Gate Blink Stalker

*really curious as to how you pressure this without crippling yourself. Whenever I try FF makes my army look like an absolute joke.

Thanks in advance, looking forward to trying out suggestions.



jkimnw
Profile Joined December 2010
United States15 Posts
August 31 2011 23:10 GMT
#1669
Is there a good way to improve queen injections? A custom map for practice? looking for some blind mechanical way to get this part of my macro mechanics down.
Mjolnir
Profile Joined January 2009
912 Posts
August 31 2011 23:38 GMT
#1670
On September 01 2011 08:10 jkimnw wrote:
Is there a good way to improve queen injections? A custom map for practice? looking for some blind mechanical way to get this part of my macro mechanics down.


I recently started putting all my queens on 1 hotkey and using that strat. It makes things go a lot faster but it isn't perfect. One minor screw up with your queens and you'll waste a tonne of time trying to get everything back in the proper place. It also gets wonky when you have less queens than hatches - they want to run all over the place.

The thread for that style is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125725,

Another style is using the minimap:


If you're wondering about timing (i.e. when to do it) you can make a note to keep a watchful eye for the text warning on the left of the screen. That won't help if you have tunnel vision though... so you can try this running in the background:

http://www.speedbagforum.com/timer.html

Set for infinite loop with 30-35 second alarm (depends on how fast you get to your queens) and inject when you hear the bell. Do that a few times and you'll have the timing down in your head pretty well, eventually you won't even need the reminder.

Good Luck

galtdunn
Profile Joined March 2011
United States977 Posts
September 01 2011 15:16 GMT
#1671
On August 31 2011 14:36 Trippy380 wrote:
Hey mates, I feel that in ZvT I am always gas starved and, as a result, I have a surplus on minerals (yeah, better injects would help indeed, I am working on them), but how do you guys dump minerals when you don't have as much gas income as the mineral spending? At first I thought about expos/macro hatches but still, it both feels fragile as it feels that, since I don't have the gas to support it, I don't produce as much as possible. I was thinking what about getting more queens but didn't see a reason for that(I usually go 3, 4 queens per game). Supposing a better player than me, how would you guys spend the mineral surplus?
Peace.

Against terran you want to dump into expos and drones, maybe spines against hellions, or spores against banshees. an extra queen or 2 never hurt. And lots of lings with upgrades.

Also, make sure you go up to all 4 gas right when you start your lair, in order to have enough gas for upgrades and tech etc.
Currently editing items in the DotA 2 wiki. PM for questions/suggestions.
ZisforZerg
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States224 Posts
September 01 2011 15:55 GMT
#1672
When playing against a Terran that walls in rather quickly and kills your first drone scout, what do you guys think is the best way to figure out what they are doing? I often times find myself trying to sac overlords, running lings up ramp, or whatever but if the Terran is not dumb they just patrol a few marines on the edge of their main and deny scouting. The main problem with this is obviously not knowing what is coming my way. It can be BF Helions, some 1-base all-in stim timing, or whatever other all-in/heavy pressure build Terran can employ. So, how do you all deal with what seems like a minute or two of absolute blindness to what your opponent is doing? (btw I'm sorry if this has been asked already)
"I'm too drunk, to taste that chicken."
Amestir
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2126 Posts
September 01 2011 16:02 GMT
#1673
On September 02 2011 00:55 ZisforZerg wrote:
When playing against a Terran that walls in rather quickly and kills your first drone scout, what do you guys think is the best way to figure out what they are doing? I often times find myself trying to sac overlords, running lings up ramp, or whatever but if the Terran is not dumb they just patrol a few marines on the edge of their main and deny scouting. The main problem with this is obviously not knowing what is coming my way. It can be BF Helions, some 1-base all-in stim timing, or whatever other all-in/heavy pressure build Terran can employ. So, how do you all deal with what seems like a minute or two of absolute blindness to what your opponent is doing? (btw I'm sorry if this has been asked already)


2 options really. Get a fast lair and overloard speed, or get a fast overseer (better next patch!). Slow overlords are just to slow for a smart Terran.

What also helps is to distract the Terran a bit when you fly your overlord in. Just run some lings in front of his base, works like a charm.
We know nothing.
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
September 01 2011 16:18 GMT
#1674
On September 01 2011 03:24 Mjolnir wrote:

Not sure if this is too "in depth" a request for this thread but here goes:

I'm having a tonne of trouble with Protoss. I think - no, I know - I need to improve my macro because late game, they will run over me. Thing is, when I talk to my opponents and ask for tips, they say, "harass more."

So here's my issue. How the hell do I harass when I'm droning like mad just to match them in worker count? And how to I harass when I'm trying to fit tech and army in with those drones? Drop play seems to come at a point where they can easily stop it (warp ins, blink, yadda, yadda). Nydus play is a joke to shut down.

This leaves me with earlier pressure. So perhaps I need to hit earlier to try to damage them, then go back to droning. So here's the question:

Can anyone please give me some build orders to strike first (roach/ling, hydra, etc.) against...

FFE*
3 Gate Sentry Expand
6 Gate Blink Stalker

*really curious as to how you pressure this without crippling yourself. Whenever I try FF makes my army look like an absolute joke.

Thanks in advance, looking forward to trying out suggestions.





By the whole harass more thing, for me it is typically a roaming group of 10-12 lings trying to find a place to sneak in when they might move out, denying a 3rd, just being annoying more than anything. Typically a good toss is going to be secure with FF and such, but the idea is a small group of lings not costing you many larva or money just being annoying and trying to pin him in his base a bit buying you some time. If you can draw some FF energy, or have him make some units with warp-ins when he'd rather be making probes or spending on upgrades you are doing your job. Also everything you can do to slow a 3rd is great as well.

If you are looking for some builds that punish protoss players here is some that I do. I hate seeing protoss play greedy with their fast expands and am very successful with early pushes as long as I micro well and don't do something dumb.

FFE - Fast Hydra drop is really great vs. this. They invest so much into their up front static defense. Typically you expand like normal and start droning, but you can't afford to fully saturate. Cut drones but need to stockpile gas for the drop upgrades and hydras. Your drop will only be 8-12 hydras but they do enough damage vs. gateway units that thats all you need. Don't get ling speed you need the gas. Also since you might be a bit high on minerals make 2 extra queens and drop them as well with the hydras to spread creep tumors, heal, and add some extra damage. I don't have an exact build order because I vary it up just depending on how fast I want to get the drop in and how the early game harass from toss goes(do they block with a pylon, try to cannon, etc). You should be able to get the drop in before they have enough units to stop it. Takes practice, but works great. And after I drop the initial hydras I'll often just rally lings over and elevator them into the base as well as a follow up. But the other option is do enough damage and be droning back home/expanding and getting way ahead.

3 Gate Sentry Expand - I've been able to hit a +1 ling timing against this where you can eventually overrun them because they'll run out of force fields. It is better on a map like Xel'Naga where you can come through the back way and the front. But basically expand like normal but instead of pulling drones off gas at 100 gas pull them off at 200 and drop an early evo to get +1 attack for lings. I cut drones around 24 and start pumping lings to hit when the +1 finishes. Have to hide the lings so they just think you are droning up normally. If the player is really good with the force fields they might hold, but you can just keep streaming the lings in and I break players all the time with it.

6 gate blink - This is where I think you can go roach with speed lings. Again expand like normal, drone up some(24-26 drones or so) and get 6-8 roaches out. Then pull everything off gas and hit with those roaches following up with just tons of speed lings. With the roaches focus on taking out pylons and forges to open up ways for the lings to get in. Don't rely on trying to stream more roaches in after your initial they take to long to get there. Need to keep the pressure up with the lings and try to keep the roaches alive.

I've found variations of all these work great. The magic number of about 24 drones seems to be a good number to be able to pump lings off 2 bases with queens.

The key is to make it look like you are doing a normal drone up so they aren't extra prepared. Keep the pressure on don't try to fall back realizing you are all in and have to do major damage. Don't miss OL's I always do and you have to be able to stream in the lings.

Mixing in an early +1 on the lings can really do wonders. That early upgrade with the number of lings adds up and makes them so much more cost effective early game.

I mean the "proper" way to play against these builds are taking a quicker 3rd and realizing when you have to cut drones and make units to stop the 2 base push. But that is hard to do and like I said when I see the greedy toss play I know I could take a fast 3rd or just say screw it, let me see if I can end this. Again a lot of it is map dependent too, some maps are really tough to punish a fast expand and some are easier. Some are better for drops... like getting close air positions on Met for Hydra drops.

Hope this helps with some of the things I try to do vs. Toss.
DW-Unrec
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
492 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-02 19:36:14
September 02 2011 19:18 GMT
#1675
Why map control is so important in ZvZ?

Can I skip speed on a ZvP if he is FFE? If yes, what do I do with the gas I mine with my 14 gas 14 pool?
Coopa826
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany161 Posts
September 02 2011 21:12 GMT
#1676
Can I skip speed on a ZvP if he is FFE? If yes, what do I do with the gas I mine with my 14 gas 14 pool?

Never skip speed, EVER

14pool 14gas
16 overlord
16queen + @100gas speed
21 hatch

So FFE and 3gate expand are pretty common right now in ZvP
If toss goes FFE get speed anyway ... you can always pick up some probes trying to build pylons and take the watchtowers. sometimes tosses try to take control of the watch tower with a stalker and without speed you still cant pick them up.

3gate expand is pretty easy tol hold against if you have a ton of speedlings + spines
and as i said you have better mapcontrol with speedlings . as soon as you see toss going out of his base
-> runby with speedlings
-> stop droning immediatly
-> tons of lings + spines
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
September 02 2011 22:34 GMT
#1677
On September 03 2011 06:12 Coopa826 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Can I skip speed on a ZvP if he is FFE? If yes, what do I do with the gas I mine with my 14 gas 14 pool?

Never skip speed, EVER

14pool 14gas
16 overlord
16queen + @100gas speed
21 hatch

So FFE and 3gate expand are pretty common right now in ZvP
If toss goes FFE get speed anyway ... you can always pick up some probes trying to build pylons and take the watchtowers. sometimes tosses try to take control of the watch tower with a stalker and without speed you still cant pick them up.

3gate expand is pretty easy tol hold against if you have a ton of speedlings + spines
and as i said you have better mapcontrol with speedlings . as soon as you see toss going out of his base
-> runby with speedlings
-> stop droning immediatly
-> tons of lings + spines


I disagree, although if you are 14/14ing you might is well get ling speed but if you see it before you can delay it till 6:30 or something no rush for it like vs a non forge fe.
When I think of something else, something will go here
DW-Unrec
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
492 Posts
September 03 2011 04:02 GMT
#1678
What is map control exactly? And why people say it is so important in ZvZ? I mean, you have overlords. Why do you need lings to "control the map"?

Why people say its hard to techswitch in ZvZ? Can I have an example?
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-03 05:17:59
September 03 2011 05:16 GMT
#1679
Map control is knowing when your opponent takes his third. It is also preventing the third from going down. Map control is making a push an isolated force in the middle of the fog.

Map control is vision but vision must be supplemented with force. In ZvZ Overlords let you know when a ling smash and dash is coming, giving you time to prepare against it. A player that is active on the map has a line of defense his opponent must break through, giving him the safety to expand and prevent expansions.

Savior was the god of map control. I don't have a sc2 analog in mind but in so many words- map control is controlling the map.

Edit: I don't know what people say about tech switches in ZvZ. I mean it's a mirror matchup so you're racing against an opponent who more than likely is doing the same thing. So suddenly switching from ling infestor to roach infestor is going to leave you at an upgrade disadvantage.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
Doomtickle
Profile Joined December 2010
United States5 Posts
September 03 2011 05:48 GMT
#1680
What is map control exactly? And why people say it is so important in ZvZ? I mean, you have overlords. Why do you need lings to "control the map"?


Actually, Day9 summed up map control really nicely. It's not just vision. You know you have "map control" when you could tell your opponent, "I'm going to run one of my drones to the Xel'Naga Tower in the middle of the map right now and there is nothing you can do about it". Map control means not only vision, but the constant threat of counter-attacks, the speed an mobility to lock down his expansions and secure your own. Hope this helps.
If you're not attacking, you're probably losing.
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