EPThttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Tal'darim Altar LE (2).SC2Replay
He FE, i crushed his expo, i had more drones, more units, more tech, then i just died. I have no idea WTF went wrong.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 84
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Tal'darim Altar LE (2).SC2Replay He FE, i crushed his expo, i had more drones, more units, more tech, then i just died. I have no idea WTF went wrong. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 31 2011 07:11 DW-Unrec wrote: How did I lose this game? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Tal'darim Altar LE (2).SC2Replay He FE, i crushed his expo, i had more drones, more units, more tech, then i just died. I have no idea WTF went wrong. Seemed pretty obvious to me... You lost your entire army because you over-committed, and then droned behind no army. On top of that, you expanded behind not having an army, and floated 400/300 when your opponent's counter attack came, To sum it up, in ZvZ droneing is almost never safe unless both players have an established roach count, especially when you don't have an army. | ||
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
A simple TvZ timing that transitions nicely to mech, but whenever i transition into roaches, my friend simply transitions into Marine Tank standard play which, like the gosus you people are known for, wrecks roach play. i am here to ask a simple question, it is possible to stay on ling bling to beat this push? The solution don't need to be close to cost effective, it just feels awful when you have to go roach against terran : [ | ||
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Bassmasta79
United States9 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/?e78z1i001w1vhzk | ||
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Trippy380
Brazil14 Posts
Peace. | ||
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ECA.BruTATroN
United States282 Posts
Try a 14 pool 13 gas drone to 15 gas till 200, get speed plus +1 attack for mele, try to expo around 20ish and just mass lings, they will usually crush any roach build or ling build, but if u see oppenent go banes try to manuever around the banes to his minerals. | ||
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logic.k
Germany5 Posts
So: PvZ Tal Darim Altar Cross position He does FFE, I go 3base and try to survive. When i scout, i can see 6 gates + twilight council. First question here: Can i Punish this sumhow? I managed to snipe his 3rd with a ling counter, but got rolled in lategame .. See yourself: http://www.file-upload.net/download-3702511/Tal-darim-Altar-LE--14-.SC2Replay.html | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
Not sure if this is too "in depth" a request for this thread but here goes: I'm having a tonne of trouble with Protoss. I think - no, I know - I need to improve my macro because late game, they will run over me. Thing is, when I talk to my opponents and ask for tips, they say, "harass more." So here's my issue. How the hell do I harass when I'm droning like mad just to match them in worker count? And how to I harass when I'm trying to fit tech and army in with those drones? Drop play seems to come at a point where they can easily stop it (warp ins, blink, yadda, yadda). Nydus play is a joke to shut down. This leaves me with earlier pressure. So perhaps I need to hit earlier to try to damage them, then go back to droning. So here's the question: Can anyone please give me some build orders to strike first (roach/ling, hydra, etc.) against... FFE* 3 Gate Sentry Expand 6 Gate Blink Stalker *really curious as to how you pressure this without crippling yourself. Whenever I try FF makes my army look like an absolute joke. Thanks in advance, looking forward to trying out suggestions. | ||
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jkimnw
United States15 Posts
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On September 01 2011 08:10 jkimnw wrote: Is there a good way to improve queen injections? A custom map for practice? looking for some blind mechanical way to get this part of my macro mechanics down. I recently started putting all my queens on 1 hotkey and using that strat. It makes things go a lot faster but it isn't perfect. One minor screw up with your queens and you'll waste a tonne of time trying to get everything back in the proper place. It also gets wonky when you have less queens than hatches - they want to run all over the place. The thread for that style is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125725, Another style is using the minimap: If you're wondering about timing (i.e. when to do it) you can make a note to keep a watchful eye for the text warning on the left of the screen. That won't help if you have tunnel vision though... so you can try this running in the background: http://www.speedbagforum.com/timer.html Set for infinite loop with 30-35 second alarm (depends on how fast you get to your queens) and inject when you hear the bell. Do that a few times and you'll have the timing down in your head pretty well, eventually you won't even need the reminder. Good Luck | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:36 Trippy380 wrote: Hey mates, I feel that in ZvT I am always gas starved and, as a result, I have a surplus on minerals (yeah, better injects would help indeed, I am working on them), but how do you guys dump minerals when you don't have as much gas income as the mineral spending? At first I thought about expos/macro hatches but still, it both feels fragile as it feels that, since I don't have the gas to support it, I don't produce as much as possible. I was thinking what about getting more queens but didn't see a reason for that(I usually go 3, 4 queens per game). Supposing a better player than me, how would you guys spend the mineral surplus? Peace. Against terran you want to dump into expos and drones, maybe spines against hellions, or spores against banshees. an extra queen or 2 never hurt. And lots of lings with upgrades. Also, make sure you go up to all 4 gas right when you start your lair, in order to have enough gas for upgrades and tech etc. | ||
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ZisforZerg
United States224 Posts
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Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
On September 02 2011 00:55 ZisforZerg wrote: When playing against a Terran that walls in rather quickly and kills your first drone scout, what do you guys think is the best way to figure out what they are doing? I often times find myself trying to sac overlords, running lings up ramp, or whatever but if the Terran is not dumb they just patrol a few marines on the edge of their main and deny scouting. The main problem with this is obviously not knowing what is coming my way. It can be BF Helions, some 1-base all-in stim timing, or whatever other all-in/heavy pressure build Terran can employ. So, how do you all deal with what seems like a minute or two of absolute blindness to what your opponent is doing? (btw I'm sorry if this has been asked already) 2 options really. Get a fast lair and overloard speed, or get a fast overseer (better next patch!). Slow overlords are just to slow for a smart Terran. What also helps is to distract the Terran a bit when you fly your overlord in. Just run some lings in front of his base, works like a charm. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:24 Mjolnir wrote: Not sure if this is too "in depth" a request for this thread but here goes: I'm having a tonne of trouble with Protoss. I think - no, I know - I need to improve my macro because late game, they will run over me. Thing is, when I talk to my opponents and ask for tips, they say, "harass more." So here's my issue. How the hell do I harass when I'm droning like mad just to match them in worker count? And how to I harass when I'm trying to fit tech and army in with those drones? Drop play seems to come at a point where they can easily stop it (warp ins, blink, yadda, yadda). Nydus play is a joke to shut down. This leaves me with earlier pressure. So perhaps I need to hit earlier to try to damage them, then go back to droning. So here's the question: Can anyone please give me some build orders to strike first (roach/ling, hydra, etc.) against... FFE* 3 Gate Sentry Expand 6 Gate Blink Stalker *really curious as to how you pressure this without crippling yourself. Whenever I try FF makes my army look like an absolute joke. Thanks in advance, looking forward to trying out suggestions. By the whole harass more thing, for me it is typically a roaming group of 10-12 lings trying to find a place to sneak in when they might move out, denying a 3rd, just being annoying more than anything. Typically a good toss is going to be secure with FF and such, but the idea is a small group of lings not costing you many larva or money just being annoying and trying to pin him in his base a bit buying you some time. If you can draw some FF energy, or have him make some units with warp-ins when he'd rather be making probes or spending on upgrades you are doing your job. Also everything you can do to slow a 3rd is great as well. If you are looking for some builds that punish protoss players here is some that I do. I hate seeing protoss play greedy with their fast expands and am very successful with early pushes as long as I micro well and don't do something dumb. FFE - Fast Hydra drop is really great vs. this. They invest so much into their up front static defense. Typically you expand like normal and start droning, but you can't afford to fully saturate. Cut drones but need to stockpile gas for the drop upgrades and hydras. Your drop will only be 8-12 hydras but they do enough damage vs. gateway units that thats all you need. Don't get ling speed you need the gas. Also since you might be a bit high on minerals make 2 extra queens and drop them as well with the hydras to spread creep tumors, heal, and add some extra damage. I don't have an exact build order because I vary it up just depending on how fast I want to get the drop in and how the early game harass from toss goes(do they block with a pylon, try to cannon, etc). You should be able to get the drop in before they have enough units to stop it. Takes practice, but works great. And after I drop the initial hydras I'll often just rally lings over and elevator them into the base as well as a follow up. But the other option is do enough damage and be droning back home/expanding and getting way ahead. 3 Gate Sentry Expand - I've been able to hit a +1 ling timing against this where you can eventually overrun them because they'll run out of force fields. It is better on a map like Xel'Naga where you can come through the back way and the front. But basically expand like normal but instead of pulling drones off gas at 100 gas pull them off at 200 and drop an early evo to get +1 attack for lings. I cut drones around 24 and start pumping lings to hit when the +1 finishes. Have to hide the lings so they just think you are droning up normally. If the player is really good with the force fields they might hold, but you can just keep streaming the lings in and I break players all the time with it. 6 gate blink - This is where I think you can go roach with speed lings. Again expand like normal, drone up some(24-26 drones or so) and get 6-8 roaches out. Then pull everything off gas and hit with those roaches following up with just tons of speed lings. With the roaches focus on taking out pylons and forges to open up ways for the lings to get in. Don't rely on trying to stream more roaches in after your initial they take to long to get there. Need to keep the pressure up with the lings and try to keep the roaches alive. I've found variations of all these work great. The magic number of about 24 drones seems to be a good number to be able to pump lings off 2 bases with queens. The key is to make it look like you are doing a normal drone up so they aren't extra prepared. Keep the pressure on don't try to fall back realizing you are all in and have to do major damage. Don't miss OL's I always do and you have to be able to stream in the lings. Mixing in an early +1 on the lings can really do wonders. That early upgrade with the number of lings adds up and makes them so much more cost effective early game. I mean the "proper" way to play against these builds are taking a quicker 3rd and realizing when you have to cut drones and make units to stop the 2 base push. But that is hard to do and like I said when I see the greedy toss play I know I could take a fast 3rd or just say screw it, let me see if I can end this. Again a lot of it is map dependent too, some maps are really tough to punish a fast expand and some are easier. Some are better for drops... like getting close air positions on Met for Hydra drops. Hope this helps with some of the things I try to do vs. Toss. | ||
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
Can I skip speed on a ZvP if he is FFE? If yes, what do I do with the gas I mine with my 14 gas 14 pool? | ||
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Coopa826
Germany161 Posts
Can I skip speed on a ZvP if he is FFE? If yes, what do I do with the gas I mine with my 14 gas 14 pool? Never skip speed, EVER 14pool 14gas 16 overlord 16queen + @100gas speed 21 hatch So FFE and 3gate expand are pretty common right now in ZvP If toss goes FFE get speed anyway ... you can always pick up some probes trying to build pylons and take the watchtowers. sometimes tosses try to take control of the watch tower with a stalker and without speed you still cant pick them up. 3gate expand is pretty easy tol hold against if you have a ton of speedlings + spines and as i said you have better mapcontrol with speedlings . as soon as you see toss going out of his base -> runby with speedlings -> stop droning immediatly -> tons of lings + spines | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 03 2011 06:12 Coopa826 wrote: Never skip speed, EVER 14pool 14gas 16 overlord 16queen + @100gas speed 21 hatch So FFE and 3gate expand are pretty common right now in ZvP If toss goes FFE get speed anyway ... you can always pick up some probes trying to build pylons and take the watchtowers. sometimes tosses try to take control of the watch tower with a stalker and without speed you still cant pick them up. 3gate expand is pretty easy tol hold against if you have a ton of speedlings + spines and as i said you have better mapcontrol with speedlings . as soon as you see toss going out of his base -> runby with speedlings -> stop droning immediatly -> tons of lings + spines I disagree, although if you are 14/14ing you might is well get ling speed but if you see it before you can delay it till 6:30 or something no rush for it like vs a non forge fe. | ||
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
Why people say its hard to techswitch in ZvZ? Can I have an example? | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Map control is vision but vision must be supplemented with force. In ZvZ Overlords let you know when a ling smash and dash is coming, giving you time to prepare against it. A player that is active on the map has a line of defense his opponent must break through, giving him the safety to expand and prevent expansions. Savior was the god of map control. I don't have a sc2 analog in mind but in so many words- map control is controlling the map. Edit: I don't know what people say about tech switches in ZvZ. I mean it's a mirror matchup so you're racing against an opponent who more than likely is doing the same thing. So suddenly switching from ling infestor to roach infestor is going to leave you at an upgrade disadvantage. | ||
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Doomtickle
United States5 Posts
What is map control exactly? And why people say it is so important in ZvZ? I mean, you have overlords. Why do you need lings to "control the map"? Actually, Day9 summed up map control really nicely. It's not just vision. You know you have "map control" when you could tell your opponent, "I'm going to run one of my drones to the Xel'Naga Tower in the middle of the map right now and there is nothing you can do about it". Map control means not only vision, but the constant threat of counter-attacks, the speed an mobility to lock down his expansions and secure your own. Hope this helps. | ||
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