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Ok, 90% of the Protoss I play now go Stargate and follow with colossi and stalkers. Some build their stargate early with a couple of warpgates which makes it impossible to know if they're going to attack or expand.
How on EARTH do you deal with stargate openings? The protoss opens up FFE, I respond with getting a quick third base. I know he's going stargate, so I just keep droning up, making a few extra queens and some spore crawlers. If they produce more stargate units, I build a hydra den because it's the only way to get rid of them.
But during the entire harass, I know I can just keep expanding and take both a forth and a fifth base. My economy is good. Protoss only has air units and I have the counter to them. But now he has all the tech and the economy he needs to steam roll any kind of army I can produce, except ling/bling/infestor, which of course are impossible to get a decent army in such short notice, when you have to make an anti-air army to deal with his air units.
It doesn't seem to matter how many bases I take, as he just steamrolls me in the first engagement which doesn't leave any room to rebuild my army.
And since he goes for stargate, you can't really roach rush him early on either.
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Ok I think I desperately need some help vs T. Over 200 games I've got a 51% overall win percentage, 59% vs P, 52% vs Z, but only 39%!!! vs T.
I'm not meaning to whinge like an imba post, but I find it so frustrating they can force so many situations, starting off with a bunker rush requiring you to make lings, then hellions forcing you to make roaches, then banshee's forcing you to make air. I feel so helpless never being able to force a reaction in my opponent.
Often I try and go muta with a mix of ling / roaches, but I find the ground army is just being eaten by marine / tank with 20 muta's dying if like 10 marines are left over after a battle. I feel like I just can't deal with the marine / tank composition which is so often the case against T.
Any advice for dealing with tank / marine is greatly appreciated (I already try and engage from two sides at least, and wait till they move their tanks engaging them unsieged).
KR high platinum if that helps.
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On August 28 2011 15:22 Peleus wrote:
Ok I think I desperately need some help vs T. Over 200 games I've got a 51% overall win percentage, 59% vs P, 52% vs Z, but only 39%!!! vs T.
Any advice for dealing with tank / marine is greatly appreciated (I already try and engage from two sides at least, and wait till they move their tanks engaging them unsieged).
I suggest you open a proper help thread and provide some replays. It's difficult to tell what your mistakes are otherwise.
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around what time would a 2 base infestor/ ling with +1melee and armor, burrow with a few infestors be ready to go? having trouble with 4 gates lately, its either that or try to learn Idra's +1melee timing with roach ling
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:26 Nightbiscuit wrote:
Ok, 90% of the Protoss I play now go Stargate and follow with colossi and stalkers. Some build their stargate early with a couple of warpgates which makes it impossible to know if they're going to attack or expand.
How on EARTH do you deal with stargate openings? The protoss opens up FFE, I respond with getting a quick third base. I know he's going stargate, so I just keep droning up, making a few extra queens and some spore crawlers. If they produce more stargate units, I build a hydra den because it's the only way to get rid of them.
But during the entire harass, I know I can just keep expanding and take both a forth and a fifth base. My economy is good. Protoss only has air units and I have the counter to them. But now he has all the tech and the economy he needs to steam roll any kind of army I can produce, except ling/bling/infestor, which of course are impossible to get a decent army in such short notice, when you have to make an anti-air army to deal with his air units.
It doesn't seem to matter how many bases I take, as he just steamrolls me in the first engagement which doesn't leave any room to rebuild my army.
And since he goes for stargate, you can't really roach rush him early on either.
I would suggest infestors openings as haypro demostrated against Tyler this weekend that fungal can easily hold off stargate play and still able to transition well into mid-late game against p
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On August 26 2011 20:26 michaelhasanalias wrote:I've been reviewing Nestea's GSL August code s ro16 G1 build vs MVP on Daybreak: + Show Spoiler +He opts for 15 pool (25 minerals late, although I'm not sure if this is precision or not) 15 gas at 2:21 (NO DRONES ON GAS) 15 Overlord 15 hatchery at 2:58 --> 3 drones on gas 4 lings Queen 6lings Metabolic Boost (pull off gas, finishes at 5:52) 2nd Queen --> tumor NO DRONE TRANSFER + Show Spoiler +spoilered because this is just off scouting so not as important, but for completion:
35OL x2
6:27 3rd, warren --> drones back on gas
49 OL
7:30 60/60 --> 40 drones (2 in production), 8 lings, 8OL, 3 queen
60/62 7:45-7:50 --> 2,3 gas at nat, evo, bling nest, 4th gas main
2OL
+1 carapace
1OL
(impending marine/bf hellion aggression to third)
8:45 roachesx12 to 92/94
4lings
spine at 3rd
I'd like some thoughts on why exactly he did this? Can anyone explain the reasoning behind this opener? The casters seemed to think they were playing some mind games with each other, but I am not quite sure this is the case. It's definitely an uncommon opener as far as I can tell.
I can explain some of it, at the very least. The pool and gas timings were first pioneered by Line, although Line usually does *not* build an overlord before the hatchery. One of the advantages of this build is that it is very safe; the quick queens being pumped out along with the fast lings make it very safe to any kind of 2-rax or banshee opener.
The other key advantage is that the lings should arrive at the Terran's base right as he is switching his barracks and his factory for his tech lab/reactor. Of course, this is very map and position dependant, but it can catch a player by surprise and a lot of damage can be dealt.
Since Nestea made the overlord before the hatchery, he was clearly planning on pumping a large number of lings in the hopes of exploiting this small window of opportunity. I think he was trying to play the metagame, really.
The standard BO invented by Line would be:
+ Show Spoiler +
15 Pool
15 Gas (drones off gas @100)
15 Hatch
14 3 sets of lings
17 Extractor trick to get queen out
18 Overlord
Immediate queen following the first, a third queen at natural. Get speed as soon as possible, and don't forget to pressure with lings. Transitions well into pretty much everything, has a slight weakness to reaper openings as your initial lings should be running up his ramp right as the first pops, meaning that you could lose 1-2 for nothing.
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On August 29 2011 05:05 Mvrio wrote:
around what time would a 2 base infestor/ ling with +1melee and armor, burrow with a few infestors be ready to go? having trouble with 4 gates lately, its either that or try to learn Idra's +1melee timing with roach ling
Are you sure 4-gates are the issue here? Correct me if I'm wrong, but usually upgrades don't get out in time to hold any kind of 4-gate. I can guarentee you, though, that there's no way to get infestors, +1/+1 and burrow out in time to deal with that.
What I can suggest is diligent scouting and the pumping of either:
-Lings with spine support, while only engaging in range of the spines.
-Roache/Ling. Spines are optional here, but I prefer to use the mins on units in this case.
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On August 28 2011 13:26 Nightbiscuit wrote:
Ok, 90% of the Protoss I play now go Stargate and follow with colossi and stalkers. Some build their stargate early with a couple of warpgates which makes it impossible to know if they're going to attack or expand.
How on EARTH do you deal with stargate openings? The protoss opens up FFE, I respond with getting a quick third base. I know he's going stargate, so I just keep droning up, making a few extra queens and some spore crawlers. If they produce more stargate units, I build a hydra den because it's the only way to get rid of them.
But during the entire harass, I know I can just keep expanding and take both a forth and a fifth base. My economy is good. Protoss only has air units and I have the counter to them. But now he has all the tech and the economy he needs to steam roll any kind of army I can produce, except ling/bling/infestor, which of course are impossible to get a decent army in such short notice, when you have to make an anti-air army to deal with his air units.
It doesn't seem to matter how many bases I take, as he just steamrolls me in the first engagement which doesn't leave any room to rebuild my army.
And since he goes for stargate, you can't really roach rush him early on either.
It sounds like you're doing everything correctly, with the exception of preparing for counter aggression. Against stargate openers I will always get overlord drop in the case that my opponent attempts to go straight for a robotics after the stargate, which means I'll just kill them with a hydra drop.
I don't really have enough information to pin-point exactly what you're doing wrong, if you were to provide a replay then I could help you out in much more detail.
On August 28 2011 15:22 Peleus wrote:
Ok I think I desperately need some help vs T. Over 200 games I've got a 51% overall win percentage, 59% vs P, 52% vs Z, but only 39%!!! vs T.
I'm not meaning to whinge like an imba post, but I find it so frustrating they can force so many situations, starting off with a bunker rush requiring you to make lings, then hellions forcing you to make roaches, then banshee's forcing you to make air. I feel so helpless never being able to force a reaction in my opponent.
Often I try and go muta with a mix of ling / roaches, but I find the ground army is just being eaten by marine / tank with 20 muta's dying if like 10 marines are left over after a battle. I feel like I just can't deal with the marine / tank composition which is so often the case against T.
Any advice for dealing with tank / marine is greatly appreciated (I already try and engage from two sides at least, and wait till they move their tanks engaging them unsieged).
KR high platinum if that helps.
I'm not sure your problem is exactly what you think it is. If your opponent does that much pressure and forces that much out of you, then I guarantee you that their core army is laughably small by the time they expand. Your initial mutalisks will be able to control the pace of the game from there, given you survive all that early pressure. As for the actual engagements, you want to concentrate on never engaging into the terran, let them come to you. On top of this, you almost never want to attack from one angle, use your map control to figure out where your opponent is attacking from/to and set up a group of ground army to surround, or counter attack, or really anything that takes advantage of your mobility. Like the above poster said, though, I need a replay to answer 100% correctly.
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Is roach hydra infestor a good idea to do in ZvP?
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On August 29 2011 06:58 deathtrance wrote:
Is roach hydra infestor a good idea to do in ZvP?
Roach/ling -> infestors hits earlier and is way more mobile, and even transitions into lategame nicely (when you have 350 gas, hive+spire at the same time). Roach/hydra isn't HORRIBLE but it's very hard to beat colossi... you would need to hope that your opponent went for mass gateway units.
On August 29 2011 05:05 Mvrio wrote:
around what time would a 2 base infestor/ ling with +1melee and armor, burrow with a few infestors be ready to go? having trouble with 4 gates lately, its either that or try to learn Idra's +1melee timing with roach ling
It sounds like you're trying to be Destiny here. The proper response to 4-gate when you're going for a speedling-infestor midgame is to just keep putting up a shitton of spine crawlers at your natural and stall til infestors are out (then you win).
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How do I respond to a Forge FE on close positions shattered temple? I am pretty much FORCED to do some sort of early all-in since it's going to be virtually impossible for me to take a 3rd, correct?
Is there any real "build order" to help me with this after scouting it?
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On August 29 2011 07:27 blinkblue wrote:
How do I respond to a Forge FE on close positions shattered temple? I am pretty much FORCED to do some sort of early all-in since it's going to be virtually impossible for me to take a 3rd, correct?
Is there any real "build order" to help me with this after scouting it?
Erm... now to be honest. I've never been in this scenario. The two solutions I can come up with on the spot are:
Take the close air natural super early and be prepared to spam static defense at both choke points, as the protoss also does not have a feasible third so you can afford to do this.
Go for a 2 base hydra/nydus.
Perhaps someone who knows what they're talking about can be of more help than me, but that's my take on the situation.
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Hmm, alright. It seems like 2 base timing attacks can really completely shit on zergs even on big maps such as shakuras even without the zerg spamming static defense, so it seems like you're automatically behind in that scenario.
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On August 29 2011 07:27 blinkblue wrote:
How do I respond to a Forge FE on close positions shattered temple? I am pretty much FORCED to do some sort of early all-in since it's going to be virtually impossible for me to take a 3rd, correct?
Is there any real "build order" to help me with this after scouting it?
to give an theoretical answer: If u can pull of an ling muta play, and threaten a counter attack whenever he moves out to kill your third your fine.
But Practically its just a tough position to be in. I usually try to play heavy upgraded ling/bling infestor like described here
http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-with-mr-b/12-weeks-with-the-pros-a-new-zvp-style-with-aquanda-4819300
In my opinion all u can do is take an really early third, and do whatever you can to keep the mapcontrol or ur pretty much screwed . And watchout for a stargate opener if u realize it late ur 3rd will be in knee deep shit...
Hope i got u some inspiration 
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heya, im playing Z and usually against P i start with 15 pool 15 gas, and then either 16 or 21 hatch.
sometimes when P players are doing FFE, they just place pylon and 2 cannons behind my naturals mineral line(when i haven't even started to build my hatch) around the same time as my pool gets ready, if i don't go there they cancel the 2nd cannon and leave 1.
How should i react to this, i can't get lings fast enough to interrupt the cannon building and i don't think pulling a lot of drones to interrupt that is such a good idea when only few can hit the buildings from each side, sometimes they start building more pylons to cover the cannons and cancel them when cannons are ready.
if he decides to leave 2 cannons there i have to mass a lot of lings until i can take them down, specially when they are between wall and minerals.
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having huge problems against 4gating/fake 4gates.
1. how do i know if it's a real 4gate? what kind of unit count should i be looking for?
2. when should i be placing spinecrawlers? how many of them?
3. how do i micro?focus fire spinecrawlers to which units?
4. when can i build roach warren and get workers back on gas?
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On August 29 2011 07:27 blinkblue wrote:
How do I respond to a Forge FE on close positions shattered temple? I am pretty much FORCED to do some sort of early all-in since it's going to be virtually impossible for me to take a 3rd, correct?
Is there any real "build order" to help me with this after scouting it?
If he goes FFE, there's a VERY powerful timing you can do as Zerg, which will pretty much always work, but it takes no skill. Basically, macro up like crazy. Get you expansion as usual, then at 4:50 or so, throw down a macro hatch in your main. Make only drones until about 8:30-9:00 (earlier if you suspect a push) and then just start spamming roaches. If you push out at around the 13:00 minute mark, you will overpower him with pure roaches.
If he goes for air, throw down a hydra den as soon as you hit lair, build like 7-8 hydras and then go roaches. Also, right before you push, make sure you have finished spire in case he followed air up with colossi, which a lot of protoss will do.
Also, if you watch CoCa vs Naniwa on Tal'Darim from MLG, he shows a very nice infestor build off of two bases.
Not being able to take an early third doesn't mean insta-loss vs P. Thinking that it does, does however.
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On August 29 2011 07:56 Beyond Magic wrote:
heya, im playing Z and usually against P i start with 15 pool 15 gas, and then either 16 or 21 hatch.
sometimes when P players are doing FFE, they just place pylon and 2 cannons behind my naturals mineral line(when i haven't even started to build my hatch) around the same time as my pool gets ready, if i don't go there they cancel the 2nd cannon and leave 1.
How should i react to this, i can't get lings fast enough to interrupt the cannon building and i don't think pulling a lot of drones to interrupt that is such a good idea when only few can hit the buildings from each side, sometimes they start building more pylons to cover the cannons and cancel them when cannons are ready.
if he decides to leave 2 cannons there i have to mass a lot of lings until i can take them down, specially when they are between wall and minerals.
You should have an overlord looking for things like that. It is very worth it to take 4 drones to kill the cannon. Its better to take down the cannons with drones then let them get up and instead of droning you are making tons of lings to kill them. That is what I would do if I were you.
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On August 29 2011 07:56 Beyond Magic wrote:
heya, im playing Z and usually against P i start with 15 pool 15 gas, and then either 16 or 21 hatch.
sometimes when P players are doing FFE, they just place pylon and 2 cannons behind my naturals mineral line(when i haven't even started to build my hatch) around the same time as my pool gets ready, if i don't go there they cancel the 2nd cannon and leave 1.
How should i react to this, i can't get lings fast enough to interrupt the cannon building and i don't think pulling a lot of drones to interrupt that is such a good idea when only few can hit the buildings from each side, sometimes they start building more pylons to cover the cannons and cancel them when cannons are ready.
if he decides to leave 2 cannons there i have to mass a lot of lings until i can take them down, specially when they are between wall and minerals.
If you pull five drones right after you see the first pylon go down and attack it, you should be fine. The pylon will go up, and he will start cannons. As soon as the cannon starts, you have to target those. And if you block correctly, you should be able to get at least three workers, usually four to attack the cannons.
If you suck at blocking, then simply get your pool up faster so that your lings will be out much quicker. I always 12 pool no gas (19 hatch) vs Protoss and the only time cannon rushes are dangerous is when the protoss pylon-blocks my ramp.
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having huge problems against 4gating/fake 4gates.
1. how do i know if it's a real 4gate? what kind of unit count should i be looking for?
2. when should i be placing spinecrawlers? how many of them?
3. how do i micro?focus fire spinecrawlers to which units?
4. when can i build roach warren and get workers back on gas
1 - Its normally really hard to call, there is many different variations of the 4gate (2gas with sentry's, 1 gas zealot/stalker) and the only way you can know 100% is if you see 4 units warping in or you scout 4 gates, that said, if he has 2+ stalkers you can be pretty sure he is doing some sort've 1 base aggresion.. If you see/think 4gates 3 or 4 spines will almost always be enough to defend (depends on map)
I personally think lings are all you will need to hold it of/win the game afterward (depends how early you scout it
It's super useful to have a ling or two outside his base to see when he moves out, and being active with zergings around the map scouting for proxy pylons/probes can give it away.
Keep in mind I am in diamond.
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EPT
