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On September 05 2011 05:32 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
With reactor hellion opening the first 2 hellions come around 5:30. Sometimes slightly sooner.
Perhaps this is when they arrive at your base.
12rax13gas efficient 2 marine reactor hellion begins production at 4:41 and 2 leave the factory at 5:11.
11gas13rax (rax finishes much later than 2:38 and he already has gas) efficient reactor hellion begins production at 4:10 and 2 leave the factory at 4:40.
In fact if you scout 11 gas 13 rax, what you're going to do is leave your drone in his natural and go back up at 4:09 and lmao as you go under his factory.
By saying "efficient" I mean it's done perfectly, i.e. fact down @ 100 gas, rax lifted BEFORE needing the reactor for optimal placement timing, etc.
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On September 05 2011 17:23 blade55555 wrote:
zvp: 14 pool/16 hatch is very common without getting gas until like your spawning pool finishes
This is only for forge maps, agree? On gate-core maps any competent protoss will block your pool-hatch 100% of the time and you'll cry as you stack up 500 minerals and he sends stalkers to kill everything you have.
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On September 06 2011 01:20 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 17:23 blade55555 wrote:
zvp: 14 pool/16 hatch is very common without getting gas until like your spawning pool finishes This is only for forge maps, agree? On gate-core maps any competent protoss will block your pool-hatch 100% of the time and you'll cry as you stack up 500 minerals and he sends stalkers to kill everything you have.
If you get pylon blocked, then take your gas.
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On September 05 2011 09:10 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 09:03 Saint131 wrote:
Hi, I'm a mid platinum level player (sorry about my noobiness) and I was just wondering about opening in ZvP.
Against a Protoss, I usually put down a 14/15 hatchery because I like the feel of an extra base and I like making speedlings to defend against early pressure from Protoss excluding stargate play, of course. I am seeing more and more Protoss putting down a pylon at my natural if their scout is there before I put down my hatchery. Would it be a safe bet to switch to 14 Gas 14 pool, (and would it have the same economy as an early expand) or would you suggest another type of opening. 14/14/15 is the most cookie-cutter, standard thing in ZvP. I suggest opening 14 gas 14 pool and send the drone out to make the 15 hatch. If you get pylon blocked, then just pull the drone back and expand after you get your lings to kill the pylon (should be 21 supply). You are behind in larva in this case, but it really isn't a big deal.
It's bad play to auto-pull your drone there every game. You need a reason to do it. This could include:
- Overlord positioning sees no probe scout.
- OL sees scout went home.
- Scout is doing some crap in your main and you can sneak the hatch.
- You don't have an overlord in your natural and he's not close air and you need to stop 2:10 3 pylon wall off off 13 forge.
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On September 06 2011 01:21 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 01:20 arbitrageur wrote:On September 05 2011 17:23 blade55555 wrote:
zvp: 14 pool/16 hatch is very common without getting gas until like your spawning pool finishes This is only for forge maps, agree? On gate-core maps any competent protoss will block your pool-hatch 100% of the time and you'll cry as you stack up 500 minerals and he sends stalkers to kill everything you have. If you get pylon blocked, then take your gas.
There's a reason every pro blind gases on 3 gate maps. It's because you're getting blocked 100% of the time, and you can still auto-hatch with 15p15g or 14p15g so not taking gas is just plain bad. In fact you can auto-hatch with 15p15g, leave 2 on gas, and spend all larvae with the auto-hatch and afford a 2nd queen before 23/26 overlord. So there's actually no point to not taking gas on core-gate maps unless you're playing Tester.
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On September 06 2011 01:22 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 09:10 Soluhwin wrote:On September 05 2011 09:03 Saint131 wrote:
Hi, I'm a mid platinum level player (sorry about my noobiness) and I was just wondering about opening in ZvP.
Against a Protoss, I usually put down a 14/15 hatchery because I like the feel of an extra base and I like making speedlings to defend against early pressure from Protoss excluding stargate play, of course. I am seeing more and more Protoss putting down a pylon at my natural if their scout is there before I put down my hatchery. Would it be a safe bet to switch to 14 Gas 14 pool, (and would it have the same economy as an early expand) or would you suggest another type of opening. 14/14/15 is the most cookie-cutter, standard thing in ZvP. I suggest opening 14 gas 14 pool and send the drone out to make the 15 hatch. If you get pylon blocked, then just pull the drone back and expand after you get your lings to kill the pylon (should be 21 supply). You are behind in larva in this case, but it really isn't a big deal. It's bad play to auto-pull your drone there every game. You need a reason to do it. This could include: - Overlord positioning sees no probe scout. - OL sees scout went home. - Scout is doing some crap in your main and you can sneak the hatch. - You don't have an overlord in your natural and you need to prevent 2:10 13 forge 3 pylon wall off.
If you can force the protoss to throw down that pylon, then that actually delays the second gas of the protoss, pylons aren't free. Also, the 3 pylon wall isn't something you have to worry about anymore thanks to this.
On September 06 2011 01:23 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 01:21 Soluhwin wrote:On September 06 2011 01:20 arbitrageur wrote:On September 05 2011 17:23 blade55555 wrote:
zvp: 14 pool/16 hatch is very common without getting gas until like your spawning pool finishes This is only for forge maps, agree? On gate-core maps any competent protoss will block your pool-hatch 100% of the time and you'll cry as you stack up 500 minerals and he sends stalkers to kill everything you have. If you get pylon blocked, then take your gas. There's a reason every pro blind gases on 3 gate maps. It's because you're getting blocked 100% of the time, and you can still auto-hatch with 15p15g or 14p15g so not taking gas is just plain bad. In fact you can auto-hatch with 15p15g, leave 2 on gas, and spend all larvae with the auto-hatch and afford a 2nd queen before 23/26 overlord. So there's actually no point to not taking gas on core-gate maps unless you're playing Tester.
Wait, what? That's kinda what I'm saying, take gas after pool and mine with 2 drones if your hatch gets denied, that's what I do. If the protoss scouts you last then they won't get there in time, so it's worth a shot.
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On September 06 2011 01:24 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 01:22 arbitrageur wrote:On September 05 2011 09:10 Soluhwin wrote:On September 05 2011 09:03 Saint131 wrote:
Hi, I'm a mid platinum level player (sorry about my noobiness) and I was just wondering about opening in ZvP.
Against a Protoss, I usually put down a 14/15 hatchery because I like the feel of an extra base and I like making speedlings to defend against early pressure from Protoss excluding stargate play, of course. I am seeing more and more Protoss putting down a pylon at my natural if their scout is there before I put down my hatchery. Would it be a safe bet to switch to 14 Gas 14 pool, (and would it have the same economy as an early expand) or would you suggest another type of opening. 14/14/15 is the most cookie-cutter, standard thing in ZvP. I suggest opening 14 gas 14 pool and send the drone out to make the 15 hatch. If you get pylon blocked, then just pull the drone back and expand after you get your lings to kill the pylon (should be 21 supply). You are behind in larva in this case, but it really isn't a big deal. It's bad play to auto-pull your drone there every game. You need a reason to do it. This could include: - Overlord positioning sees no probe scout. - OL sees scout went home. - Scout is doing some crap in your main and you can sneak the hatch. - You don't have an overlord in your natural and you need to prevent 2:10 13 forge 3 pylon wall off. If you can force the protoss to throw down that pylon, then that actually delays the second gas of the protoss, pylons aren't free. Also, the 3 pylon wall isn't something you have to worry about anymore thanks to this.
The second gas will be delayed by about 5 seconds. Protoss can 19 gas with excess minerals so the pylon is not that big of a deal at all. They can just delay zealot and still go 18 gas without any form of delay if you force a pylon. They can do this if they scout you before 2:42 and they went 12/13 gate and they see you're not early pooling. This doesn't actually effect anything for protoss as the first gate is always on a downtime as it waits like 20 seconds for the 6:20 wg research to finish (off 12 gate, core, 2 chronos on core).
Anyway, a competent protoss won't put the pylon down because they can micro away from drone for over 20 ingame seconds. If they can't then they're really bad (albeit this may change post-patch).
Yah but if you're one of those dudes whose overlord doesn't go to the natural, you still need to check for it so you can respond, which would validate sending a drone to try and hatch if it's a map where you need the 2nd overlord to be going somewhere quickly.
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On September 06 2011 01:28 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 01:24 Soluhwin wrote:On September 06 2011 01:22 arbitrageur wrote:On September 05 2011 09:10 Soluhwin wrote:On September 05 2011 09:03 Saint131 wrote:
Hi, I'm a mid platinum level player (sorry about my noobiness) and I was just wondering about opening in ZvP.
Against a Protoss, I usually put down a 14/15 hatchery because I like the feel of an extra base and I like making speedlings to defend against early pressure from Protoss excluding stargate play, of course. I am seeing more and more Protoss putting down a pylon at my natural if their scout is there before I put down my hatchery. Would it be a safe bet to switch to 14 Gas 14 pool, (and would it have the same economy as an early expand) or would you suggest another type of opening. 14/14/15 is the most cookie-cutter, standard thing in ZvP. I suggest opening 14 gas 14 pool and send the drone out to make the 15 hatch. If you get pylon blocked, then just pull the drone back and expand after you get your lings to kill the pylon (should be 21 supply). You are behind in larva in this case, but it really isn't a big deal. It's bad play to auto-pull your drone there every game. You need a reason to do it. This could include: - Overlord positioning sees no probe scout. - OL sees scout went home. - Scout is doing some crap in your main and you can sneak the hatch. - You don't have an overlord in your natural and you need to prevent 2:10 13 forge 3 pylon wall off. If you can force the protoss to throw down that pylon, then that actually delays the second gas of the protoss, pylons aren't free. Also, the 3 pylon wall isn't something you have to worry about anymore thanks to this. The second gas will be delayed by about 5 seconds. Protoss can 19 gas with excess minerals so the pylon is not that big of a deal at all. They can just delay zealot and still go 18 gas without any form of delay if you force a pylon. They can do this if they scout you before 2:42 and they went 12/13 gate and they see you're not early pooling. This doesn't actually effect anything for protoss as the first gate is always on a downtime as it waits like 20 seconds for the 6:20 wg research to finish (off 12 gate, core, 2 chronos on core). Anyway, a competent protoss won't put the pylon down because they can micro away from drone for over 20 ingame seconds. If they can't then they're really bad (albeit this may change post-patch). Yah but if you're one of those dudes whose overlord doesn't go to the natural, you still need to check for it so you can respond, which would validate sending a drone to try and hatch if it's a map where you need the 2nd overlord to be going somewhere quickly.
Well, I always send down 2 drones (one becomes the scouting drone) to force the pylon, with proper micro you can kill that probe fairly quickly.
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On September 06 2011 01:24 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 01:22 arbitrageur wrote:On September 05 2011 09:10 Soluhwin wrote:On September 05 2011 09:03 Saint131 wrote:
Hi, I'm a mid platinum level player (sorry about my noobiness) and I was just wondering about opening in ZvP.
Against a Protoss, I usually put down a 14/15 hatchery because I like the feel of an extra base and I like making speedlings to defend against early pressure from Protoss excluding stargate play, of course. I am seeing more and more Protoss putting down a pylon at my natural if their scout is there before I put down my hatchery. Would it be a safe bet to switch to 14 Gas 14 pool, (and would it have the same economy as an early expand) or would you suggest another type of opening. 14/14/15 is the most cookie-cutter, standard thing in ZvP. I suggest opening 14 gas 14 pool and send the drone out to make the 15 hatch. If you get pylon blocked, then just pull the drone back and expand after you get your lings to kill the pylon (should be 21 supply). You are behind in larva in this case, but it really isn't a big deal. It's bad play to auto-pull your drone there every game. You need a reason to do it. This could include: - Overlord positioning sees no probe scout. - OL sees scout went home. - Scout is doing some crap in your main and you can sneak the hatch. - You don't have an overlord in your natural and you need to prevent 2:10 13 forge 3 pylon wall off. If you can force the protoss to throw down that pylon, then that actually delays the second gas of the protoss, pylons aren't free. Also, the 3 pylon wall isn't something you have to worry about anymore thanks to this.Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 01:23 arbitrageur wrote:On September 06 2011 01:21 Soluhwin wrote:On September 06 2011 01:20 arbitrageur wrote:On September 05 2011 17:23 blade55555 wrote:
zvp: 14 pool/16 hatch is very common without getting gas until like your spawning pool finishes This is only for forge maps, agree? On gate-core maps any competent protoss will block your pool-hatch 100% of the time and you'll cry as you stack up 500 minerals and he sends stalkers to kill everything you have. If you get pylon blocked, then take your gas. There's a reason every pro blind gases on 3 gate maps. It's because you're getting blocked 100% of the time, and you can still auto-hatch with 15p15g or 14p15g so not taking gas is just plain bad. In fact you can auto-hatch with 15p15g, leave 2 on gas, and spend all larvae with the auto-hatch and afford a 2nd queen before 23/26 overlord. So there's actually no point to not taking gas on core-gate maps unless you're playing Tester. Wait, what? That's kinda what I'm saying, take gas after pool and mine with 2 drones if your hatch gets denied, that's what I do. If the protoss scouts you last then they won't get there in time, so it's worth a shot.
- You said take gas if you get pylon blocked. I read this to mean that you should attempt to take your hatch, then if the protoss isn't spasticated and can micro his probe you THEN get gas. This is what I was saying is bad.
- You should mine with 3 drones if your hatch gets denied.
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On August 29 2011 14:42 Rimathil wrote:
having huge problems against 4gating/fake 4gates.
1. how do i know if it's a real 4gate? what kind of unit count should i be looking for?
2. when should i be placing spinecrawlers? how many of them?
3. how do i micro?focus fire spinecrawlers to which units?
4. when can i build roach warren and get workers back on gas
1 - Its normally really hard to call, there is many different variations of the 4gate (2gas with sentry's, 1 gas zealot/stalker) and the only way you can know 100% is if you see 4 units warping in or you scout 4 gates, that said, if he has 2+ stalkers you can be pretty sure he is doing some sort've 1 base aggresion.. If you see/think 4gates 3 or 4 spines will almost always be enough to defend (depends on map)
I personally think lings are all you will need to hold it of/win the game afterward (depends how early you scout it
It's super useful to have a ling or two outside his base to see when he moves out, and being active with zergings around the map scouting for proxy pylons/probes can give it away.
Keep in mind I am in diamond.
No nexus by 6:10 and you see at least 3 sentries, then the chance of 4 gate is skyrocketing. Protoss can 3 sentry expand with 32 supply at 5:49, and the 34 supply pylon is already creating, so no nexus at 6:10 but he's doing sentry play is highly suspicious. This assumes you haven't shown him something that makes him scared, it's not close position, you're not reputed for roach ling all-inning, and he's a good player.
But it also could be 2 gate void ray, or just a delayed expo. At this timing it could still be a 4 gate -> nexus cancel. In MC vs July MC put the nexus down at 6:09 and had 4 gates with, I think, 31 supply. But the probability that it's a 2 gas plain 4 gate is quite high by this time.
Of course you've cleared your half of the map of all pylons with your initial ~4 zerglings.
If he's sentry you should count the number of chronos on his core... > 3 and you should get scared.
Other than that it's a bit of a tightrope walk. As it passes 6:20 if he hasn't attacked you already I would think of putting 3 spines, and cancelling if he isn't doing a 4 gate. It's also important to create all the larvae in your MAIN as soon as he moves out, and delay-produce the natural. If you just 4SZZZZ 4SRRR when you identify for certain what he's doing, then perhaps half your larvae will get used, and as you go to use the rest of your larvae as you mine more resources, units from your main will get blocked out by FFs.
For 1 gas 4 gate I'm not really sure. I know "how" to crush it, but I face it maybe 1 every 200 games so I don't know exactly when I should allocate what larvae to beat it with 100% success rate.
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On August 02 2011 01:59 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 00:04 dementrio wrote:
assuming I'm going ling/muta zvt, without banelings, is it better to get air attack or carapace first? ground attack or carapace?
If i got it right, the idea behind the attack upgrades is that you sort of accept that all your lings will vaporize instantly but you are just hoping to get a few good (upgraded) baneling hits. So I'm getting ground carapace because i guess it works better for pure ling. without banelings you are also using mutas vs marines more often but I can't decide if this would make carapace better. Nonsense, +1 ling attack is amazing, +2 is even better. Only thing you need carapace for is to match Terran's ground mech +attack ups, cause if he has +1 on you your lings will die 1 shot. Obviously it isn't a bad thing to have, but prioritize +1 melee over carapace.
Siege upgrades give more than +1 damage, so even if you match you're still going to get 1 shotted.
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hi everyone!
In ZvZ, how do u defend against an early 1base roach push (i.e. around 15/20 roaches, pretty limited one base economy - around 18 drones or so- no upgrade, still tier 1), when u open speedling expand?
do you mass lings and counter when he is moving out (but what if he has banelings with him) ?
or do you build a roach warren and make 2 base roach? cause I did the latter, but couldn't hold the push... and I feel it costs a lot to switch to roaches so early (three drones back to gas+ a roach warren)
Also, how much do you drone against 1 base roach if u speedling expand?
Thanks!
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On September 06 2011 07:47 Macpo wrote:
hi everyone!
In ZvZ, how do u defend against an early 1base roach push (i.e. around 15/20 roaches, pretty limited one base economy - around 18 drones or so- no upgrade, still tier 1), when u open speedling expand?
do you mass lings and counter when he is moving out (but what if he has banelings with him) ?
or do you build a roach warren and make 2 base roach? cause I did the latter, but couldn't hold the push... and I feel it costs a lot to switch to roaches so early (three drones back to gas+ a roach warren)
Also, how much do you drone against 1 base roach if u speedling expand?
Thanks!
Any 1 base roach all in is easily defeated with a speedling base trade. Wait until he can't turn back and attack his base. If you kill all the drones you will win most of the time just because roaches are very slow and lings are pretty good at killing buildings.
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ok thanks! but what if he has a couple of banelings ? and if he leaves like 3 roaches to block the ramp?
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On September 06 2011 17:27 Macpo wrote:
ok thanks! but what if he has a couple of banelings ? and if he leaves like 3 roaches to block the ramp?
Depending on map I would either get roaches or lings + spines. If the choke is very small you can make like 4 or so spines and lings+queen should hold that. If the choke is large you probably need your own roaches.
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So that would mean you prefer to defend than counter, right? Cause Genesis was suggesting to counter ... So what do you guys think is better?
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On September 06 2011 18:12 Macpo wrote:
So that would mean you prefer to defend than counter, right? Cause Genesis was suggesting to counter ... So what do you guys think is better?
Well depends. What if opponent already prepared for your counter attack? Has few banelings or spines or few roaches left in base? I would prefer defending but you may try yourself what works best.
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Eheh, I am precisely asking for what is better because I don't know myself...
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What should i do against a FFE ? Usually i stop mining gas and take a fast third, but then what am i supposed to do ? I feel that there is nothing that i can do to prevent the toss from just massing units off two bases.
I'm really lost :S
Also, can you guys suggest me a safe build for TvZ ( when i get my lair, my baneling nest, ecc ) ?
Thanks for the help 
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On September 06 2011 01:20 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 17:23 blade55555 wrote:
zvp: 14 pool/16 hatch is very common without getting gas until like your spawning pool finishes This is only for forge maps, agree? On gate-core maps any competent protoss will block your pool-hatch 100% of the time and you'll cry as you stack up 500 minerals and he sends stalkers to kill everything you have.
This isn't the case. Pull 2 drones to get the probe out of the way and put the hatch down. If they pylon block you it will delay their cybercore, 2nd gas and/or warp gate tech. Just take a gas if it happens. It's not a huge deal and if they don't cancel the pylon, even better.
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EPT
