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On September 09 2011 14:11 heroofcanton wrote:
Ok. So I don't know if you guys have seen the infestor nerf that just dropped on 1.4. They can no longer target massive units. So... how are we going to deal with collosi?
Corruptors again. I'd start looking for builds that do well against voidray/colossus because that will probably make a pretty big comeback. I'm not looking forward to that.
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Ugh corruptors. Anything but corruptors...
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On September 09 2011 14:11 heroofcanton wrote:
Ok. So I don't know if you guys have seen the infestor nerf that just dropped on 1.4. They can no longer target massive units. So... how are we going to deal with collosi?
How are we going to deal with lots of archons?
Anyway, to those that saw Kyrix vs jjakji in the up/down matches, how do you deal with jjakji's style in that game? I ALWAYS have issues against that style. Do you stop making mutas at all in favor of way way more banelings? Infestors instead of mutas? Of the few times I have played against that style, I just dont have enough gas to support the number of banelings I need + mutas, let alone infestors.
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On September 09 2011 15:04 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:11 heroofcanton wrote:
Ok. So I don't know if you guys have seen the infestor nerf that just dropped on 1.4. They can no longer target massive units. So... how are we going to deal with collosi? Corruptors again. I'd start looking for builds that do well against voidray/colossus because that will probably make a pretty big comeback. I'm not looking forward to that.
well, you can still neural, even neuralling a bunch of voids to take down the col might work.
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What is the best way to tell the difference between a 1 rax expo and a 2 rax.
All I look for is fast 2nd depot, lack of scvs and to some degree how aggressive his marines are.
Thats all I can tell  , advice?
edit: i mean when they hide the 2nd rax obviously haha
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On September 09 2011 15:44 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:04 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On September 09 2011 14:11 heroofcanton wrote:
Ok. So I don't know if you guys have seen the infestor nerf that just dropped on 1.4. They can no longer target massive units. So... how are we going to deal with collosi? Corruptors again. I'd start looking for builds that do well against voidray/colossus because that will probably make a pretty big comeback. I'm not looking forward to that. well, you can still neural, even neuralling a bunch of voids to take down the col might work.
Not very energy efficient, and the infestors would probably die a few seconds after NP when colossi hit them I think might start practicing 6 or 9 pool again  But seriously, the only thing I can think of now would be corruptors. Or find a safer way to get ultras early (might be possible with the build time buff).
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Hi guys plat Terran converting into Zerg here
having trouble figuring out the most basic things like how to open Etc.
any good Zerg videos for beginners ?
What I really want is some replays from the highest level pros from the last few months but I am having trouble finding any ?
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Is it possible for someone to post timings for when mutas infestors and broodlords would typically come out?
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On September 10 2011 01:05 cydial wrote:
Is it possible for someone to post timings for when mutas infestors and broodlords would typically come out?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400 These are the earliest possible timings. As far as typical timings go you're on your own for that one it varies quite a bit especially for broodlords. I would recommend you maintain good scouting for late game things like that. Use timings for early game when you can't get into their base.
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In ZvT, what is the standard Lair timing for a zerg going Muta/Ling/Bling against a Terran going Marine/Tank ? Begin Lair morphing at 08:00 ? 10:00 ?
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In ZvP how is a composition of Lots of Archons, A few VR and Collossus, with some zlots and HT's mixed in dealt with? When I faced it I went ultralisk as that was sort of my game plan with was obviously a bad idea, I now think Broods would have been a much better idea. ( I was on 6 bases,2 mined out 4 fully mining)
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How do you deal with tank/thor/hellion when they start upgrades early and get ahead on them? No matter how hard I try, or what I try, I just cant beat a maxed 3-3 terran army of that composition. I can be up 5 bases (+ a macro hatch) to his 3 and when we try to trade he ends up losing way less and is able to remax easily, while I am just unable to.
Should I just go mass roach even though at this point I am usually significantly behind in upgrades for roaches?
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On September 10 2011 14:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:
How do you deal with tank/thor/hellion when they start upgrades early and get ahead on them? No matter how hard I try, or what I try, I just cant beat a maxed 3-3 terran army of that composition. I can be up 5 bases (+ a macro hatch) to his 3 and when we try to trade he ends up losing way less and is able to remax easily, while I am just unable to.
Should I just go mass roach even though at this point I am usually significantly behind in upgrades for roaches?
Against mech you need at least 1.5x or double the amount of resource to remax multiple times and destroy his army. Once the Terran gets to 200/200, you will need to remax 2 or 3 times just to kill one of his armies, so you should have a ton of bases, lots of money in the bank, and a huge amount of stocked larvae. Broodlords can also work, but make sure you don't get killed by a flock of vikings or ghosts that are much more common now. I still find mass roach to be the best way. Its also very profitable to drop the main just because its harder for Terran to make production structures and you can basically stop all Terran production for 60+ seconds if you can kill all factories.
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On September 10 2011 14:50 GenesisX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:
How do you deal with tank/thor/hellion when they start upgrades early and get ahead on them? No matter how hard I try, or what I try, I just cant beat a maxed 3-3 terran army of that composition. I can be up 5 bases (+ a macro hatch) to his 3 and when we try to trade he ends up losing way less and is able to remax easily, while I am just unable to.
Should I just go mass roach even though at this point I am usually significantly behind in upgrades for roaches? Against mech you need at least 1.5x or double the amount of resource to remax multiple times and destroy his army. Once the Terran gets to 200/200, you will need to remax 2 or 3 times just to kill one of his armies, so you should have a ton of bases, lots of money in the bank, and a huge amount of stocked larvae. Broodlords can also work, but make sure you don't get killed by a flock of vikings or ghosts that are much more common now. I still find mass roach to be the best way. Its also very profitable to drop the main just because its harder for Terran to make production structures and you can basically stop all Terran production for 60+ seconds if you can kill all factories.
So, I will basically go into hardcore macro roach mode instead of trying to muta harass at all... so does mass roach work decently well against mech then or is it susceptible to a tech switch? BL's never work for me because thors do a lot of damage to them still and its pretty easy to lose them to vikings
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ive been running into a problem where T or P know where my nyduses are, even without scouts in the area.
Do they show up pinged by location on the minimap? I thought it was only a loud screech that indicated you've popped one off, but it seems to be that people are being notified of exact location through fog of war.
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On September 10 2011 15:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:50 GenesisX wrote:On September 10 2011 14:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:
How do you deal with tank/thor/hellion when they start upgrades early and get ahead on them? No matter how hard I try, or what I try, I just cant beat a maxed 3-3 terran army of that composition. I can be up 5 bases (+ a macro hatch) to his 3 and when we try to trade he ends up losing way less and is able to remax easily, while I am just unable to.
Should I just go mass roach even though at this point I am usually significantly behind in upgrades for roaches? Against mech you need at least 1.5x or double the amount of resource to remax multiple times and destroy his army. Once the Terran gets to 200/200, you will need to remax 2 or 3 times just to kill one of his armies, so you should have a ton of bases, lots of money in the bank, and a huge amount of stocked larvae. Broodlords can also work, but make sure you don't get killed by a flock of vikings or ghosts that are much more common now. I still find mass roach to be the best way. Its also very profitable to drop the main just because its harder for Terran to make production structures and you can basically stop all Terran production for 60+ seconds if you can kill all factories. So, I will basically go into hardcore macro roach mode instead of trying to muta harass at all... so does mass roach work decently well against mech then or is it susceptible to a tech switch? BL's never work for me because thors do a lot of damage to them still and its pretty easy to lose them to vikings
IMO the only tech switch Terrans can do against mass roach is marauder/thor/tank? BLs actually work quite well when you can defend them with roaches underneath / infestors, but since the new patch is nerfing NP, I'm not sure how well you can build up a "zerg deathball". Using mass roach means you can't just throw units into his army (sorry for the confusion), you need to trade *somewhat* evenly with counters, drops, etc. Since most of us can't gosu400apm drops all day, attacking when tanks are unseiged is the most practical way of trading well. I don't like mutas that much because they die to thors really easily, and their air attack scales way faster than muta carapace when upgraded.
On September 10 2011 15:22 Truedot wrote:
ive been running into a problem where T or P know where my nyduses are, even without scouts in the area.
Do they show up pinged by location on the minimap? I thought it was only a loud screech that indicated you've popped one off, but it seems to be that people are being notified of exact location through fog of war.
Your opponent can hear the loud nydus noise when it spawns, but when they hear that and don't see a worm, they will instantly look at the most vulnerable / dark area in their base which is probably where you placed the nydus. Good players will always scan their base to make sure every inch is covered with their vision. And other players won't realize it until its too late.
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Wondering if some Gosu Zerg could comment on my potential roach opening vs T.
Purpose
The intent of the build is to open into a more roach heavy style, allowing for a better unit against early marine pressure, a lot better larva efficiency, better safety against very early aggression and nullifying early hellion harrass. Obviously this all may not happen in a game, however a good build should be able to handle a couple of different scenarios.
The benchmark I was using for a typical build was 15 hatch / 15 pool.
The Build
9 Overlord
14 Pool
17 Hatch
16 Queen
18 Overlord
18 Roach Warren
19 Extractor
20 Queen #2 (and spawn larva, built at main hatch)
20 Transfer Queen #1 to natural
22 Fill Gas
22 Overlord
22 Roach
The first roach pops out at ~ 4:40. In comparison 15 hatch / 15 pool allows me to get 4 lings out at around 4:30. In the case of proxy rax's or unexpected pressure you can always pump lings earlier due to having the 14 pool. Allowing a bit of additional safety.
Economy
Obviously the typical hatch first is designed to focus on economy and provide extra larva for fast saturation and lings (larva intensive). There is no point however having this early hatch if it doesn't add to saturation, or the extra larva isn't utilised because of resource capping. I studied the 15 hatch / 15 pool opening to examine the total mining time up to 5 minutes, and did the same for this build in 10 second increments. I use the term DMM (Drone Mining 'Man hours') to compare the build. If 6 drones are mining for 10 seconds, that would be 1:00 DMM (I.e. 6 * 0:10). Each DMM is equivalent to 40 minerals, or 38 gas.
In the first 5 minutes, 15 hatch / 15 pool mines 68.0 DMM in minerals, and 5.0 DMM in Gas. This roach build mines 64.83 DMM in minerals, and 2.0 DMM in Gas. This equates to being 126.67 minerals worse off, and 114 gas less than 15 hatch / 15 pool, but further ahead in tech with the roach warren.
Summary
I think overall it's pretty viable considering the advantages it offers including safety, follow up attacks and shutting down hellions, but I'm open to different comments.
Cheers.
P.s. I'll try and include some replays soon.
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On September 10 2011 15:44 GenesisX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 15:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 10 2011 14:50 GenesisX wrote:On September 10 2011 14:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:
How do you deal with tank/thor/hellion when they start upgrades early and get ahead on them? No matter how hard I try, or what I try, I just cant beat a maxed 3-3 terran army of that composition. I can be up 5 bases (+ a macro hatch) to his 3 and when we try to trade he ends up losing way less and is able to remax easily, while I am just unable to.
Should I just go mass roach even though at this point I am usually significantly behind in upgrades for roaches? Against mech you need at least 1.5x or double the amount of resource to remax multiple times and destroy his army. Once the Terran gets to 200/200, you will need to remax 2 or 3 times just to kill one of his armies, so you should have a ton of bases, lots of money in the bank, and a huge amount of stocked larvae. Broodlords can also work, but make sure you don't get killed by a flock of vikings or ghosts that are much more common now. I still find mass roach to be the best way. Its also very profitable to drop the main just because its harder for Terran to make production structures and you can basically stop all Terran production for 60+ seconds if you can kill all factories. So, I will basically go into hardcore macro roach mode instead of trying to muta harass at all... so does mass roach work decently well against mech then or is it susceptible to a tech switch? BL's never work for me because thors do a lot of damage to them still and its pretty easy to lose them to vikings IMO the only tech switch Terrans can do against mass roach is marauder/thor/tank? BLs actually work quite well when you can defend them with roaches underneath / infestors, but since the new patch is nerfing NP, I'm not sure how well you can build up a "zerg deathball". Using mass roach means you can't just throw units into his army (sorry for the confusion), you need to trade *somewhat* evenly with counters, drops, etc. Since most of us can't gosu400apm drops all day, attacking when tanks are unseiged is the most practical way of trading well. I don't like mutas that much because they die to thors really easily, and their air attack scales way faster than muta carapace when upgraded. Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 15:22 Truedot wrote:
ive been running into a problem where T or P know where my nyduses are, even without scouts in the area.
Do they show up pinged by location on the minimap? I thought it was only a loud screech that indicated you've popped one off, but it seems to be that people are being notified of exact location through fog of war. Your opponent can hear the loud nydus noise when it spawns, but when they hear that and don't see a worm, they will instantly look at the most vulnerable / dark area in their base which is probably where you placed the nydus. Good players will always scan their base to make sure every inch is covered with their vision. And other players won't realize it until its too late.
Ok, as long as its an affirmitive that no ping shows up for the opposition on the minimap where it happens, I guess I was playing a map hacker once or twice.
I would set nydus down, not in his base, but at expos or behind empty base mineral lines, to get both the ability to expand quickly, and for positioning purposes, putting half the army behind them. Of the few times I've done this, it was far away from their base, yet they made a bee line for the worm as soon as it popped, indicating he somehow saw it, yet to scan there would be a stroke of luck with so many empty base possibilities, and I never saw it, and otherwise to scout there would mean I'd see the scout. Neither happened and he hit my worm near instantly. I stopped using nydus because he said that it shows up where it is on the minimap.
Mut've been a hacker.
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Unsure of how to deal with terran late game when they go ghost. Usually I go infestor, broodlord, with ling and corruptor support. However, ghosts do quite well against infestors and brood lords with their EMP and snipe. I was thinking about ultralisk, but I've never really liked them.
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wtf do you do against late game terran drops... ive been having to resort to broodlords, which are EXTREMELY slow... so then i get my bases dropped and i lose all my resources/tech to a cheap drop of 8 marines and a medivac, even with 5 spine crawlers at each base.
EDIT: This was cross map tal darim, I was at his base with about 7 broods and 10 corruptors, 3 infestors and the rest in roaches/lings, and I had spines at every base. Should I dedicate like 6 roaches to defend purely against drops at this point?
EDIT2: Another thought... is there a way to punish a fast expanding terran with a wall when THEY open with aggression?
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EPT
