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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Diamond Zerg here.
Elevator pushes can be a pain in the ass, and can come at any time. My personal preference for elevator pushes is burrowed roach/infestor. There's no greater annoyance to terran than having roaches unburrow under your siege line whilst infestors fungal the marines to death.
One of the biggest flaws to this is the mentality that spines will save you. With siege, and the medivac sighting, they will straight-out kill your spines. Don't overmake spines, because they won't be your friend here.
Of course, you should have maybe 15-20 slings sitting outside his base before he pushes out, so you can run in and counter-attack while he is trying to dedicate his forces to the push. If you harrass while he is doing the push, he won't be able to reinforce, and you will really damage his economy.
No offense, but this sounds like really bad advice. Ling/Bane/Muta > Infestor in ZvT, getting an infestation pit after already getting spire/bane nest sounds like not the best idea. I've considered using roaches against elevators, but on Shakuras specifically, they can do an elevator in that middle section where you can't get units into. I know how to handle elevators where you can attack them (say, elevator into your main on any map really) but not really on maps like that. You won't be able to get roaches burrowed under like that.
And a lot of the elevator pushes are done with just loading up medivacs. Specifically, the shakuras pleataeu push is done with medivacs.
I mean thanks anyways though. Maybe I should specify that I'm masters?
In ZvP, I normally go destiny-style sling/mass infestor, just because I favour the added control of having infestors.
My question is, if the protoss is going mass-collossus, when is the point where you should stop relying on neural parasite on the collossus, and instead make corruptors to deal with them? I keep being very overconfident with my infestors and engaging the army, only to find that they just target my infestors and I instantly lose.
You don't. You go for more infestors until you can get Ultralisks or Broodlords out. If they are just adding lots of colossi, then you add more infestors. If they are going pure colossi, get ultras or BL (preferably BL). You can also go for mass muta suddenly.
Here's my question again:
How do you hold elevator pushes on Shakuras plateau mid section (or in general on maps where you can't hit where they are on bottom)
Masters Zerg
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Wow, terran is so fucking OP. I lost to 5 terrans today. I cant fucking scout when there is hellions on the map. How Am i supposed to see if he is expoing or preparing an all-in ?
Seriously, playing vs tards is harder than better players. Tards masses 6 banshees then GGs your. Tards masses 20 hellions then GG you. I can deal with the 20 hellion mass. But 6 banshee, or siege tank+BFH+SCV all-in I cant. Because I cant scout.
Also tards dont put the factory on the ramp. They also are good enough to put one marine on the corner of the base and only one marine on the ramp. I cant see tech, unit count, NOTHING. I have to wait till he floats his CC out of his base or I see 20 SCVs with his army, in this case its GG if its close distance.
Best example:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/joker race.SC2Replay
The only way to have mapcontrol back is mutalisks, but when I start teching they all-in me. I think this deserves its own topic.
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Hi,
I've been having trouble with a build I've seen 3 terrans do today. In one of the cases, I saw an early Expo by the T, followed by bunker defense. Eventually I saw 8 or 9 raxes put down upon which I face never ending pressure. With banelings I seem to win most of the engagements, but eventually they will kill my 3rd, get their medivacs, and take me out. Note: Neither player used seige tanks.
I feel the strategy probably lies in infestors instead of mutas and funneling the rest of the gas into ups. Or maybe i'm supposed to use banelings and ups. Also, I suspect there is an early window when I can do a lot of damage. But overall, I don't really have an answer for this.
Also, when a T early expands, should you just take your 3rd or gear up with a big attack? Against toss, I prefer getting the third, but againstr T i'm not so sure.
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On September 13 2011 10:40 People_0f_Color wrote:
Hi,
I've been having trouble with a build I've seen 3 terrans do today. In one of the cases, I saw an early Expo by the T, followed by bunker defense. Eventually I saw 8 or 9 raxes put down upon which I face never ending pressure. With banelings I seem to win most of the engagements, but eventually they will kill my 3rd, get their medivacs, and take me out. Note: Neither player used seige tanks.
I feel the strategy probably lies in infestors instead of mutas and funneling the rest of the gas into ups. Or maybe i'm supposed to use banelings and ups. Also, I suspect there is an early window when I can do a lot of damage. But overall, I don't really have an answer for this.
Well upgraded ling/baneling should deal with this, the issue with using infestors is that you have no manual way to regain lost energy (e.g. consume in BW) so once you've been worn out, you just die.
Also, when a T early expands, should you just take your 3rd or gear up with a big attack? Against toss, I prefer getting the third, but againstr T i'm not so sure.
The #1 rule of playing against terran is never attack into the terran without hive tech. In this situation, you should either: Go for faster mutalisks and then take a third with mass droning behind, or take your third and rely on teir 1 w/ tier 2 upgrades for defense for a large portion of the early-mid game, with a quite late mutalisk transition. Personally, I prefer the faster lair solution because going for a faster third can forfeit much of the map control you'll need later in the game, and makes it awkward to take your own forth or punish a terran's third.
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On September 13 2011 10:09 DW-Unrec wrote:Wow, terran is so fucking OP. I lost to 5 terrans today. I cant fucking scout when there is hellions on the map. How Am i supposed to see if he is expoing or preparing an all-in ? Seriously, playing vs tards is harder than better players. Tards masses 6 banshees then GGs your. Tards masses 20 hellions then GG you. I can deal with the 20 hellion mass. But 6 banshee, or siege tank+BFH+SCV all-in I cant. Because I cant scout. Also tards dont put the factory on the ramp. They also are good enough to put one marine on the corner of the base and only one marine on the ramp. I cant see tech, unit count, NOTHING. I have to wait till he floats his CC out of his base or I see 20 SCVs with his army, in this case its GG if its close distance. Best example: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/joker race.SC2ReplayThe only way to have mapcontrol back is mutalisks, but when I start teching they all-in me. I think this deserves its own topic.
Keep balance whining, that's a great way to get better.
Why exactly did you post? I mean, I would give you advice on scouting but then that would start an argument, and arguing over the internet is one of the stupidest things a man can do.
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What about the July Zerg two base baneling ling aggression?
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On September 13 2011 03:49 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Diamond Zerg here.
Elevator pushes can be a pain in the ass, and can come at any time. My personal preference for elevator pushes is burrowed roach/infestor. There's no greater annoyance to terran than having roaches unburrow under your siege line whilst infestors fungal the marines to death.
One of the biggest flaws to this is the mentality that spines will save you. With siege, and the medivac sighting, they will straight-out kill your spines. Don't overmake spines, because they won't be your friend here.
Of course, you should have maybe 15-20 slings sitting outside his base before he pushes out, so you can run in and counter-attack while he is trying to dedicate his forces to the push. If you harrass while he is doing the push, he won't be able to reinforce, and you will really damage his economy. No offense, but this sounds like really bad advice. Ling/Bane/Muta > Infestor in ZvT, getting an infestation pit after already getting spire/bane nest sounds like not the best idea. I've considered using roaches against elevators, but on Shakuras specifically, they can do an elevator in that middle section where you can't get units into. I know how to handle elevators where you can attack them (say, elevator into your main on any map really) but not really on maps like that. You won't be able to get roaches burrowed under like that. And a lot of the elevator pushes are done with just loading up medivacs. Specifically, the shakuras pleataeu push is done with medivacs. I mean thanks anyways though. Maybe I should specify that I'm masters? Show nested quote +In ZvP, I normally go destiny-style sling/mass infestor, just because I favour the added control of having infestors.
My question is, if the protoss is going mass-collossus, when is the point where you should stop relying on neural parasite on the collossus, and instead make corruptors to deal with them? I keep being very overconfident with my infestors and engaging the army, only to find that they just target my infestors and I instantly lose. You don't. You go for more infestors until you can get Ultralisks or Broodlords out. If they are just adding lots of colossi, then you add more infestors. If they are going pure colossi, get ultras or BL (preferably BL). You can also go for mass muta suddenly. Here's my question again: Show nested quote +How do you hold elevator pushes on Shakuras plateau mid section (or in general on maps where you can't hit where they are on bottom)
Masters Zerg
Kill the destructible debris on shakurus before the elevator comes with any zerglings you have on the map (you're not doing anything with them anyways). I would not advise roaches, since they aren't really that good against terran anyways. Go for fast mutalisks to deal with the elevator, or just counterattack their main with a baneling bust. You seem really proud of being masters btw, yes we get that your masters and you think your really good, but its getting annoying.
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On September 13 2011 10:52 People_0f_Color wrote:
What about the July Zerg two base baneling ling aggression?
It's never consistent enough to be a good response, it'd be like a protoss going proxy 2 gate every game, it's a cheese. Besides, most terrans have learned how to deal with this kind of thing, I don't remember the last time I saw it work at a high level. There is a reason July hasn't done it in a while, it was a very stylistic thing to punish overly greedy terran builds, and now those builds don't exist any more.
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On September 13 2011 10:51 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:09 DW-Unrec wrote:Wow, terran is so fucking OP. I lost to 5 terrans today. I cant fucking scout when there is hellions on the map. How Am i supposed to see if he is expoing or preparing an all-in ? Seriously, playing vs tards is harder than better players. Tards masses 6 banshees then GGs your. Tards masses 20 hellions then GG you. I can deal with the 20 hellion mass. But 6 banshee, or siege tank+BFH+SCV all-in I cant. Because I cant scout. Also tards dont put the factory on the ramp. They also are good enough to put one marine on the corner of the base and only one marine on the ramp. I cant see tech, unit count, NOTHING. I have to wait till he floats his CC out of his base or I see 20 SCVs with his army, in this case its GG if its close distance. Best example: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/joker race.SC2ReplayThe only way to have mapcontrol back is mutalisks, but when I start teching they all-in me. I think this deserves its own topic. Keep balance whining, that's a great way to get better. Why exactly did you post? I mean, I would give you advice on scouting but then that would start an argument, and arguing over the internet is one of the stupidest things a man can do.
Why did I post? "How Am i supposed to see if he is expoing or preparing an all-in ?"
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On September 13 2011 10:58 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:52 People_0f_Color wrote:
What about the July Zerg two base baneling ling aggression? It's never consistent enough to be a good response, it'd be like a protoss going proxy 2 gate every game, it's a cheese. Besides, most terrans have learned how to deal with this kind of thing, I don't remember the last time I saw it work at a high level. There is a reason July hasn't done it in a while, it was a very stylistic thing to punish overly greedy terran builds, and now those builds don't exist any more.
lol Baneling busting is still definetly a good response to 2-raxes or a fast expanding Terran. Calling it obsolete is stupid, because if I'm not mistaken, a baneling bust was the way that july took a game off of mvp in the gsl.
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On September 13 2011 11:01 DW-Unrec wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:51 Soluhwin wrote:On September 13 2011 10:09 DW-Unrec wrote:Wow, terran is so fucking OP. I lost to 5 terrans today. I cant fucking scout when there is hellions on the map. How Am i supposed to see if he is expoing or preparing an all-in ? Seriously, playing vs tards is harder than better players. Tards masses 6 banshees then GGs your. Tards masses 20 hellions then GG you. I can deal with the 20 hellion mass. But 6 banshee, or siege tank+BFH+SCV all-in I cant. Because I cant scout. Also tards dont put the factory on the ramp. They also are good enough to put one marine on the corner of the base and only one marine on the ramp. I cant see tech, unit count, NOTHING. I have to wait till he floats his CC out of his base or I see 20 SCVs with his army, in this case its GG if its close distance. Best example: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/joker race.SC2ReplayThe only way to have mapcontrol back is mutalisks, but when I start teching they all-in me. I think this deserves its own topic. Keep balance whining, that's a great way to get better. Why exactly did you post? I mean, I would give you advice on scouting but then that would start an argument, and arguing over the internet is one of the stupidest things a man can do. Why did I post? "How Am i supposed to see if he is expoing or preparing an all-in ?"
Have you ever heard of overlord scouts??? Put one behind the terran's expo and check if hes taking it, and if he isn't even after he has map control with hellions, then you can assume he's all-ining. Sac an overlord into his base if you are suspicous,
Also, while balance whining is allowed on TL (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=263611), its best not to do it unless your a writer on their team.
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Let's say I'm playing a ZvP without neural parasite - how do I deal with deathballs? Use the extra gas from fewer infestors for corruptors and hydras?
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On September 13 2011 10:09 DW-Unrec wrote:Wow, terran is so fucking OP. I lost to 5 terrans today. I cant fucking scout when there is hellions on the map. How Am i supposed to see if he is expoing or preparing an all-in ? Seriously, playing vs tards is harder than better players. Tards masses 6 banshees then GGs your. Tards masses 20 hellions then GG you. I can deal with the 20 hellion mass. But 6 banshee, or siege tank+BFH+SCV all-in I cant. Because I cant scout. Also tards dont put the factory on the ramp. They also are good enough to put one marine on the corner of the base and only one marine on the ramp. I cant see tech, unit count, NOTHING. I have to wait till he floats his CC out of his base or I see 20 SCVs with his army, in this case its GG if its close distance. Best example: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/joker race.SC2ReplayThe only way to have mapcontrol back is mutalisks, but when I start teching they all-in me. I think this deserves its own topic.
I generally never make lair or take a third if I can't see an expansion, and I'll get an evo, pump queens, and get roach warren, baneling nest, and speed. At 6:30 there should always been an expo floating over, and if there's no expo by 7:00 landed, then something funny is going on.
Mass banshee can be a bit ridiculous, it's impossible to tell if Terran is going single banshee or cloak, or the fucking ridiculous double (or even triple by bads) banshee, so add a single spore if you still can't tell what's going on. Generally, hellions will be coming from an add-on made by the rax that you can see at the wall in (which, actually, can be very annoyingly denied scouting by hellions if you don't have speed).
But mutalisks or lair tech in general is a very bad idea. Mass marine will tear up the only 3-4 mutas you can afford, and they won't be able to kill a siege tank or banshee fast enough. Get lair late if you see no expo and suspect 1 base play, and if you do get it, you'll want to get roach speed or bane speed, rather than something like infestation pit or spire.
Let's say I'm playing a ZvP without neural parasite - how do I deal with deathballs? Use the extra gas from fewer infestors for corruptors and hydras?
Roach/Baneling rain for stalker/colossi, or mass corruptor against VR/Colossi. Eventually you'll want ultralisks.
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Wow that helped alot, belial, thanks. This video helped a lot too:
http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-with-mr-b/12-weeks-with-the-pros-zvp-mid-term-with-idra-4791385
Sorry about whineing.
I never tough of getting lair only when he takes his second.
I have another question. When he goes hellion -> expo or another FE build. Is there something I have to be afraid of or I can just rush mutas/macro? Does terran have something like a 7 gate timing push after the expo? Or the terran just straigt up macro till 9~11 minutes where he have a big marine ball with some siege tanks? Or just harass?
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^ If you watch GSL VODs from the first 4-5 seasons, you'll see Zerg go for lair around 30ish supply, and make 4 mutas ASAP. But 4 mutas is really weak, 3 non-stim marines shut them down, a single turret rapes them, and they can only really kill 2-3 SCVs (and that's after about 20 seconds of sitting on a mineral line, nevermind if they are actually prepared and positioned). Later on, Zerg realized mutas are really only good when you have 8+, preferablly 12+, so now you see Zerg focus on upgrades and speed first, as well as macro. Going muta first like Zerg used to meant Zerg would be 0/0 going to hive tech, and possibly even no bane speed. But any 2 base aggression will destroy you if you go for fast mutas, and your economy won't be great either.
So it's not so much that if you need to worry or not, it's that mutas are pretty worthless until you get 2 bases saturated, and getting a third is preferable. However, if Terran goes FE of any kind, mutas are especially worthless, because it means Terran's 2 base timing push is going to own you because all you have are mutas against his mass marine/tank, which you need ling/bane of high counts to hold (as you won't have 20 mutas anyways, which are good for tank/rine in late midgame).
Zerg used to get away with going fast mutas, because Terran never fast expanded (banshees were popular, and when stim came quicker, terran went for faster stim and more rax before expanding, and later tanks, or they would go 1 base siege tank into expand, or even thors before expanding, like Rainbow did in the GSL S1 finals). If Terran doesn't expand fast, it means their tank/rine mid-game push is going to be late, meaning Zerg is pretty much free to drone up and tech up after they've held the harder hitting 1 base push. But since Terran never was aggressive at the start either, Zerg was basically free to do anything they wanted.
It's amazing if you watch the old VODs, I've been watching a lot of them recently. But yea, if Terran FE's, it means his tank/rine timing push is coming faster so you may want to hold off on tech, and focus on lower tier upgrades like bane speed and upgrades, and just secure a macro lead with a faster third and later spire. If Terran does a 1 base opening, you may want to tech a little faster after holding off any early aggression like banshees.
Terran has plenty of timing pushes, I believe it was sC who came up with a very interesting mass marine/marauder push that was much like 7 gate, that killed off Losira and a few other very high tier zergs, but it's micro intensive and won't really be viable for Terran below master to pull off.
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rofl, I just watched that and it was horrible! They lost every-single-game. I mean, it's clear Idra knows what's he's talking about when it comes to roach/hydra/corruptor, but roach/hydra/corruptor is just imbalanced bad lol.
incontrol on 'are you afraid of infestors?': "no, they are weak, frail, and i generally position my stalkers and use blink micro".
incontrol on SoTG 47 : "infestors kill everything, they are way too good and strong, protoss needs help".
oh man, so funny. obviuosly that was before the buff, but just funny.
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On September 13 2011 10:09 DW-Unrec wrote:Wow, terran is so fucking OP. I lost to 5 terrans today. I cant fucking scout when there is hellions on the map. How Am i supposed to see if he is expoing or preparing an all-in ? Seriously, playing vs tards is harder than better players. Tards masses 6 banshees then GGs your. Tards masses 20 hellions then GG you. I can deal with the 20 hellion mass. But 6 banshee, or siege tank+BFH+SCV all-in I cant. Because I cant scout. Also tards dont put the factory on the ramp. They also are good enough to put one marine on the corner of the base and only one marine on the ramp. I cant see tech, unit count, NOTHING. I have to wait till he floats his CC out of his base or I see 20 SCVs with his army, in this case its GG if its close distance. Best example: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/joker race.SC2ReplayThe only way to have mapcontrol back is mutalisks, but when I start teching they all-in me. I think this deserves its own topic.
This is not as hopeless as you think it is. I like everything you did up until about 6 minutes. There was 2 major mistakes you made. First you had no overlord positioned behind the terran natural. And second you did not take your first roaches to attack. Either of these actions would have given you the information you needed to stop his attack.
If the terran isn't trying to expand around 6 minutes then something is up. This is the moment when zerg begins to pass up 1 base terran economy. Expect some kind of aggression. In the current state of the game its most likely something with blue flame hellions because they are the only terran unit efficient enough early game to pose a big threat against a zerg with defenders advantage.
Keep a few roaches at home and send a few to poke at him. He's going to reveal something to you if you do this. Don't just look at what he's doing. Look at what he isn't doing and use that to decide on your best course of action. If you really don't know whats going on and he hasn't expanded slow down on drones and start making units. Don't totally stop droning just slow down until you see him expand you'll still be ahead.
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^ watching
- Send your first overlord behind the Terran's base on a 2 player map (on a 4 player map, eliminate one of the possibilities and send your scouting drone to opposite direction clockwise/counterclockwise). Also be wary of possibility of marine killing it, don't send it across middle like you did.
- Send your 2nd overlord to your natural to make sure no bunker or proxy shenanigans, and so you can see when his scout arrives (or lack thereof, which tells you he proxied, is doing something aggressive, or snuck an SCV when game started into your base)
- You need to send a scouting worker. For Zerg, the best one to send is your 11-13 drone. I prefer 11.
If you had done this, you would've known something was missing at Terran's base (no gas = 2 rax, and if you only see 1 rax in his base or no rax and no gas, that means 1 of them is proxied.) This is your first big mistake, you get surprised by 2 rax. You already lost the game.
- Terran gets bunkers up. GG. There is absolutely no way to comeback after you let Terran get a single bunker up against 2 rax opening (its possible against 1 rax openings, but it's hard and your behind). You are already way behind, you 'kill' 2+200 minerals of drones with your 2 ridiculous spines. You can't ever let terran get bunkers up. There is just no way for you to win the game, a Master could be playing this game for you and still won't beat a Silver level. Okay, maybe, but you aren't masters yourself.
- You still don't have an overlord out. You could've killed all his retreating marines with your speedlings, but you don't pay attention or scout at all and let him get away. come on man.
No point in really watching the rest of the replay. You need to have an overlord at your natural to make sure he isn't doing shenanigans like that. The proper response is to send 2-3 drones per SCV, and target the SCV to make sure it dies before building. With the rest of the drones, you get a flank on the marine then kill it.
edit: the guy never made multi pronged attacks, I don't know what to tell you. You need to keep a zergling at each watch tower at all times, and at the front of his base so you know when he moves out. If he kills the zergling, you need to resend one out again immediately, if not a bit further so it doesn't run into that army. He had a huge army push into your third and you had no idea about, your map awareness is horrible.
You also only have 25 workers all game long, on 3 base, and somehow have over 8k minerals and 1 k gas. How is that possible? You need to saturate all 3 bases, you need to always be making workers. What you need to play Zerg as, is always make drones, never stop, and anytime a push is coming, you make units then and only then (this is related to always having a worker out front). Your larva injects are horrible (youll lose a lot of games until you hit Plat league because you cant reinforce due to this).
Your micro is atrocious in the battle too. a-moving all those units would've been infinitely better than whatever you were trying to do there. I suggest you play around in the unit tester and figure out how to control armies. Ideally you want to at least keep a control group of lings and banes separate, but at your level... well, you should use a control group for lings, banes, and mutas separate (you can add lings/banes together once infestors become a big part of your army, otherwise just add them to your ling group) so you can learn.
It's funny how... well, silver you are, yet your opponent is the exact same level to you. God damn the ladder system by blizz is so damn perfect, i mean you both have 3 bases, never take a fourth, and you both only make up to 25 workers. It's hilarious how you guys are literally just mirrors of each other.
I know you hear it all the time, but having playably decent macro will get you into Master league easily. At your level of play, just having passable macro would completely stop all cheese and win you every single game you come across with opponents of that level. Your level of play is so low that you really need to work on macro, nothing else comes even a close second. Only 30 workers man, what's going on there? And no lings or map awareness?
I don't know what kind of "pushes' you're referring to the end, the opponent didn't do any multi-pronged attacks, and he didn't do any timing pushes either. You just had really bad macro, you were way behind already at the onset of the game, you never made more than 25 workers, and you had no map awareness. If you had a ling at each watchtower even, you would've easily won the game by knowing where he was rather than finding out when your units are suddenly getting hit by siege tanks.
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Wow, thanks a lot. I didn't know i had so much mistakes. I'm gonna work on macro and map awareness. But when i make so many drones i start to float soo many minerals.
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EPT
