EPT[H] TvP - The Immortal Problem. - Page 16
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 14 2010 09:37 Mente wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2010 09:30 Toolshed wrote: You just hit the nail on the head. I think most people agree that the immortal is designed to counter mech units. So how is it possible that the immortal is also good against marauders? While Colossi and HTs have some serious drawbacks (being hit by air to air, require higher tech etc.) there just is now drawback or mechanic you can abuse to shut down immortals. And we're talking about a unit that directly counters Thors, Tanks and Hellions and is still more than useful against Marauders (and even Marines) how you yourself pointed out. And if you think about it some more you'll come to the conclusion that there is just nothing left for Terrans that is not demolished by immortals (not including air for an obvious reason). So you're argument that the immortal should NOT be redesigned because protoss would not be able to deal with marauders is plain nonsense. Immortals should not be an untouchable answer to freakin every ground unit a Terran has to offer. Watched all of them. Interesting series. I like how you KNOW what's coming and still can't even survive long enough for mid game with like 5 different strategies while mezmerize is either going for drop or 4 gate >.>. That's exactly how I feel when I'm playing vs Protoss. Even if you manage to survive you'll be at an disadvantage. Of course at least 5 different people will now jump on you and point out how bad you are and what mistakes you did here and there while not being able to provide a single replay that proves you wrong in a thread that exists for 15 pages now  Keep it up.I didn't really know what to expect until after the first couple of games I was just transitioning as I would in BW But please criticism is appreciated all the same :-P Don't expect to hold off an early push when you're hell-bent on fast expo. It's common sense man. You're investing a lot into a command center. He's investing that in tech and units. Pretty obvious who's army is going to come out on top there. Marauders, Ghosts, and eventually Medivacs (as well as a raven if he's getting HT to feedback) are all STILL incredibly effective against all toss ground units. Vikings STILL make great counters to colossai. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 14 2010 09:42 shinosai wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2010 09:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Same units almost every game? Are you familiar with Brood War? Matchups are predictable unit-wise. There are options, but you generally know what someone is going to open with, and thus what the other player is going to have to open aswell. OH THIS IS A RTS? Yea, thanks for letting me know. All the condescending horse-shit aside, you sound like you're more than willing to throw tantrum instead of post replays. Guess that follows the general theme here. Carry on. Replays are never as effective as a straight up challenge. Because you can nitpick replays like little babies all day, but when you have to man up and play the game, things tend to fall apart for bad arguments. Then post some replays to nit-pick. You're proving absolutely nothing with that He-man argument. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On April 14 2010 09:50 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Then post some replays to nit-pick. You're proving absolutely nothing with that He-man argument. I won't post replays to nitpick because nitpicking solves no arguments. I've never seen a replay successfully prove a point. Everytime anyone posts a replay to solve a balance argument, every single possibly mistake they could have made, even if they are the best player in the entire world, is pointed out. In other words, either play a game or go away. If you think you can easily stop stalker immortal push then SHOW ME. I'm right here waiting on sc2. shinosai.marktheshark What's that? It's easier to theorycraft what someone could've done to beat a protoss than it is to actually do it? Color me surprised, backseat driver. | ||
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Toolshed
337 Posts
On April 14 2010 09:52 DeMusliM wrote: Hey! Right - i'm not one to whine, but i'm at a real dead end right now when it comes to this matchup - i've tried literally everything but it feels as if my army is never as cost effective - and never as fast at rebuilding. Before the patch - TvP has always been my least favourite Matchup as i felt i was limited to 1 viable strategy - that being the marauder fe. The patch came and swiftly tore that apart, and after immortals not allowing mech play, it leaves terran with little option but to go BIO that has been nerfed considerably, and doesn't really stand up to a protoss army head on. Now, my main predicament being - a 4-5 warpgate rush (i find this incredibly hard to hold off, i just encountered a game where i went 3 rax, 2 bunkers and died behind my wall to it), or the more simple 3 warpgate immortal -> push/expo and tech to HT's. Before the patch - terrans were still weaker late game vs toss - due to the inability to go heavy units such as thors/tanks, and thus investing alot of money in bio due to it not being totally destroyed by immortals. But right now, i don't have an advantage at any point in the game and feel constantly behind - is their a strategy that i'm missing out on? Or is every Terran feeling the way i do? :S Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days. | ||
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MezmerizePLZ
United States30 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote: Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar That was a brutal set of games. I saw some patterns in this series: -siege tanks just don't cut it against immortal drop play. No way, no how. -marauders without ghosts just don't cut it. period. -FE doesn't work with any combination of marauder or siege tank; actually, I'm pretty sure any kind of early expand just won't work. Unfortunately those were your main strategies in most of the games. The game I thought you did the best was when you went for banshees, but you lost too many marines in the early game, so you couldn't support banshees. Also, you tried to expand too early. May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot. I have a suggestion that might work: try shield marines + banshees, with a bunker at your choke. | ||
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Prozen
United States338 Posts
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot. A lot of terran including myself have stopped walling in vs toss for a variety of reasons: It's really easy for stalker/immortal to pick off those supply depots, especially if they use forcefield. I've lost games because I couldn't protect the buildings due to being blocked by forcefields. It's better to have everything safely inside your base with your army guarding the ramp. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On April 14 2010 10:10 Prozen wrote: Okay guys, I think I found the counter. Going 4 rax MARINES only FE, meaning don't make any addons and making 3 bunkers. The only problem with the build is you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals. Otherwise, the Protoss can just tech to Collosi and rape your army or go for a 4-5 gate Bunker bust and it'll be gg. So you have to use scan, but at the moment, I think this is the best way to counter the Immortal push. I think morrow's 1 rax marine -> expand -> lab on rax + 2 reactor raxes -> pump MASS shield marines + 4 bunkers at nat is better than that. Getting no add-ons seems like a bad idea unless you're going for some kind of proxy/all-in attack. On April 14 2010 10:13 shinosai wrote: A lot of terran including myself have stopped walling in vs toss for a variety of reasons: It's really easy for stalker/immortal to pick off those supply depots, especially if they use forcefield. I've lost games because I couldn't protect the buildings due to being blocked by forcefields. It's better to have everything safely inside your base with your army guarding the ramp. well in that case just don't wall-in at all right? or did you not watch the replays? | ||
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mrlie3
Canada350 Posts
On April 14 2010 10:10 Prozen wrote: Okay guys, I think I found the counter. Going 4 rax MARINES only FE, meaning don't make any addons and making 3 bunkers. The only problem with the build is you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals. Otherwise, the Protoss can just tech to Collosi and rape your army or go for a 4-5 gate Bunker bust and it'll be gg. So you have to use scan, but at the moment, I think this is the best way to counter the Immortal push. OOPS his observer saw your 4 rax w/o techlab. He switches to Colossus. GG. ... Jokings aside, 4 rax then fe feels like rines going to get decimated when toss storms with force field to cut your army in half. At least marauder had enough HP and range (6), rines will just get owned. Anyway, can you post a replay of this strat? | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On April 14 2010 10:17 mrlie3 wrote: OOPS his observer saw your 4 rax w/o techlab. He switches to Colossus. GG. ... Jokings aside, 4 rax then fe feels like rines going to get decimated when toss storms with force field to cut your army in half. At least marauder had enough HP and range (6), rines will just get owned. Anyway, can you post a replay of this strat? I don't think he means get four barracks before you expand. That's....not an FE. | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
But anyways - i've spoke with several top terran players, and luckily they all said this mu was by far the hardest for them so that atleast makes me a little happier inside knowing i'm not the only one. Blizz have been on the ball so far with nerfs/buffs (although i believe they are dodging the main bulk of units causing problems) so hopefully sometime soon - someone either comes up with some god almighty strat! Or, the more likely blizzard patch comes and saves us ! %) | ||
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Fallen
Canada192 Posts
I think I had a decent chance that game against a 4 gate warpgate rush. reapers kinda forced him away from his normal fast immortal tech. I blew the game when I attacked his expo and sent my reapers to his main(me being greedy). Reapers would have wtfowned those front sentries and marauders would have cleared the place after. Made multiple mistakes early game. splitting my defensive force as I was looking for a proxy pylon, got half my defense blew up. Basically, early nitro reapers let me put enough pressure so he cannot do whatever he wants. One gripe I have is that reapers takes as much time to build as an immortal. It's difficult to manage that build time. I feel like you always need to have a reaper strike force ready to hit fast when your game sense is tingling. They are certainly good dps vs anything the toss can push out. for the records, we played 3 games and I lost all 3. This was the closest. [url blocked] | ||
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Prozen
United States338 Posts
Edit: @ Blasius: It's also not like the T will just sit on 4 empty Barracks. He has to scout the Protoss and react accordingly. I think going 4 raxes without addons or 3 raxes without addons and 1 with a tech lab is better, because think about it. It takes a while for the reactors to go up and by the time the reactor goes up, you could have made 2~3 Marines without it. I agree about the tech lab addon though, it definitely helps to be able to make a quick switch to Marauders if you need to. | ||
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Orpheus
United States35 Posts
On April 14 2010 10:29 DeMusliM wrote: darn my thread got deleted! But anyways - i've spoke with several top terran players, and luckily they all said this mu was by far the hardest for them so that atleast makes me a little happier inside knowing i'm not the only one. Blizz have been on the ball so far with nerfs/buffs (although i believe they are dodging the main bulk of units causing problems) so hopefully sometime soon - someone either comes up with some god almighty strat! Or, the more likely blizzard patch comes and saves us ! %) The fact that DeMuslim is saying this makes me feel much less of a retard. I (now 1350 terran plat) was in like a 10 game losing streak vs. protoss before trying out the MorroW build - 1rax no gas into FE, then 1 gas+tech 2rax+reactor + bunker defense at nat and was finally able to win. Somehow I feel the protoss made some mistakes which made my job easier though... nevertheless I was so damn happy to finally be able to beat a protoss. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
However, you must look at the game from the Protoss perspective, as well. If you make Immortals later tech, you're taking away Protoss's pretty much only chance at surviving any early Marauder push/harass. Marauders come out much much earlier than Immortals and they absolutely rape any Protoss T1 unit. The concussive shells "nerf" does simply moves the marauder push back 80 seconds, which is not enough time for Protoss to research charge and without charge Protoss T1 simply cannot take down Marauders even with FF. Lowering Immortal damage bonus is probably a better option. However, keep in mind that again, the reason why Protoss can hold off early Marauder pushes are because Immortals do so much damage. Marauders have a ridiculous 125 hp! It takes immortals 3 hits to kill a marauder. Possible ways to balance are to either a) increase Marauder hp so that they can take 4 hits before dying, or b) decrease Immortal damage so they don't kill Marauders in 3 hits. Option a is obviously a horrible one; not even going to expand on that. Option b is more realistic. Maybe simply reducing immortal damage to 20+20 would solve the problem. Maybe making Marauders be able to tank 1 more hit will solve Terran bio's mid-late game problems without completely ruining Protoss early game. Unfortunately, I don't feel that nerfing Immortal damage would really fix the issue in the long term. Half of the reason why the immortal shuts down mech play completely is because of its shields. However, nerfing Immortal shields is (in my opinion) completely out of the question. Why? Because Terran already has a very viable counter to Immortal shields. EMP. Nerfing Immortal shields is redundant, and will have more implications in PvZ and PvP as well. Not just PvT. Some people have argued that EMP's usefulness is reduced by the presence of Feedback on HTs. However, I just do not feel that that is a very valid argument. I can argue that Feedback on HTs is reduced by the presence of EMP's on the ghost. I think it's simply a matter of skill when it comes to using EMP v. Feedback. Look at BW. There were plenty of abilities in BW that seemed clearly imbalanced or were extraordinarily hard counters. Plague and Dark swarm come to mind. Dark swarm was clearly a "Terran is now useless in this area" button. Yet, the metagame still worked in BW. Players just had to adapt to those abilities and rely on their micromanagement skill in order to survive. Blizzard already made what in my mind was a horrible move. Nerfing storm AoE. It discouraged micromanagement skill and is very detrimental to SC2's possible future as an esport. If all people had to do was to play rock paper scissors and a-move their armies into each other with very little micromanagement skill then SC2 will not survive as an esport. EDIT: Tbh, I think nerfing marauder slow was the wrong move by Blizzard. Pre-patch 8 it allowed Terran to put early pressure on Protoss so that when Immortals did pop out, it wasn't such an uphill battle. PvT was actually pretty balanced pre-patch 8 imo. | ||
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2SCV1cup
69 Posts
wouldnt influence tvz since all zerg units do normal dmg | ||
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Iblis
904 Posts
On April 14 2010 10:29 Fallen wrote: heres a game against mezmerize. I think I had a decent chance that game against a 4 gate warpgate rush. reapers kinda forced him away from his normal fast immortal tech. I blew the game when I attacked his expo and sent my reapers to his main(me being greedy). Reapers would have wtfowned those front sentries and marauders would have cleared the place after. Made multiple mistakes early game. splitting my defensive force as I was looking for a proxy pylon, got half my defense blew up. Basically, early nitro reapers let me put enough pressure so he cannot do whatever he wants. One gripe I have is that reapers takes as much time to build as an immortal. It's difficult to manage that build time. I feel like you always need to have a reaper strike force ready to hit fast when your game sense is tingling. They are certainly good dps vs anything the toss can push out. for the records, we played 3 games and I lost all 3. This was the closest. [url blocked] That replay was really interesting, it's not often that you see a terran using reaper in his battle force, but they clearly do their job of killing sentry really fast. By your harass you did make Mezmerize go for 4warpgate stalkers, 1-2 sentries and you had 3-4 rax with tech lab, after that opening you could include in your game plan to get more marauder quickly and not over commit yourself in reapers as he just massed thoses counters that are stalkers, you had the buildings for that and the ressources to marauders and maybe expo by clearing those stalkers at your door before the sentry warping begun. I will not take examples in every minutes of this game but an interesting fight happen at 18minutes, Mezmerize is at 121 psi and you're at 76 let's take out the workers 57 and 33 respectively you had 64 and 43 supply in ground forces and you held it off pretty easily with your reapers on the edge even with like 4/5th of your marauders being blocked away. With a little more map control on the early/mid game you could have a really great game here, marauders are better than stalker 1v1 get as much marauder as you need to fend off a stalker confinement. | ||
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Mente
United States288 Posts
On April 14 2010 09:47 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Don't expect to hold off an early push when you're hell-bent on fast expo. It's common sense man. You're investing a lot into a command center. He's investing that in tech and units. Pretty obvious who's army is going to come out on top there. Marauders, Ghosts, and eventually Medivacs (as well as a raven if he's getting HT to feedback) are all STILL incredibly effective against all toss ground units. Vikings STILL make great counters to colossai. I feel like there has to be a way to make FE work well. It's worked in previous ladder games, maybe my mentality was off when I was playing Mez but overall I have not given up yet. edit: I've been trying a multitude of FE builds and I'm still trying to find the one that feels the best for me. Hopefully I'll figure it out soon. | ||
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