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As many people are now aware, TvP has changed drastically from what it used to be. Because marauders no longer give instant map control, terran has to play defense for a while. Many terrans these days are opting for a mech style build, often some sort of mech fast expand to secure that much needed 3rd/4th gas.
In my experience, I've had mixed results, which I believe are more do to the skill of my opponents rather more than anything. After watching a lot of the triple strike tournament and seeing the absolute domination Huk was in PvT, I'm growing increasingly concerned about the current state of the matchup.
I did not see any terrans using my build (though some may have; I didn't get to see all the games). Therefore I figured I'd test out my build vs Huk's build.
Another vT gaming team member, mesmerize, wanted to see how the builds worked out, so we did a series of test games. The replays of those games are here:
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3
As you can see, I tried a number of variations (and raged at his early probe a lot) but was unable to actually pull off the build as intended. The final game I was able to not die, but I couldn't even get my expansion up, because if I moved any tanks down my ramp he'd just push in and dominate them. I could have gotten ghosts much earlier, and perhaps that might have been the only viable solution (1 rax 1 fact then add ghost + 2nd rax THEN take natural), but I still feel like I would've been behind at that point.
Now many people are probably wondering why I don't do something like 1 rax FE or even 2-3 rax play, or go banshees. From what I've seen, barracks based play is a losing game. Because you no longer have the ability to pressure early, protoss can tech much more safely without running the risk of dying to a pressure build. Therefore, the collosi are out way faster than you can amass a reasonable number of vikings. If you don't kill him before there's a couple range collosi out, you lose.
As seen by huk vs qxc today, banshee play just leaves you too vulnerable, and even if you manage to get the banshees out, you're fighting an uphill battle, especially because stalkers now take on banshees pretty effectively, and that robo will be out so toss can chrono an obs if needed.
I've tried fast ghost/siege expand builds, but they too have timing windows where I'm vulnerable, especially to stalkers with blink.
I'm not going to call imbalance just yet, but it seems to me like there's not really a way for T to do anything other than not die. On maps like LT, it might be possible to abuse the cliffs and actually get the natural secured, but on most maps you're not going to be able to.
My current line of thinking is that the immortal comes too quickly. Stalkers do fine to hold off 1 hatch roach aggression, so it's not really needed PvZ (and it'd mitigate a lot of the ZvP issues people are having).
So my questions are:
-Does anyone have a viable safe build that works against protoss immortal push?
-Do immortals need to either be moved up the tech tree or take longer to make (some sort of delay to keep them from being massed so early)?
-Are immortals simply too massable in general?
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I tried to use a kind of 2 rax FE build with fast EMP similarly to Gretorp's build, but it didn't work out. Even after I survived the first immortal push, I needed to use my natrual SCVs to defend and once I started producing more marines, he just went collosi and raped my army completely. Gretorp, in his 3rd game against a Protoss, interestingly tried going a 1 Rax Reaper Expand and he kept his expansion alive by constantly harassing with his mass reapers (and I MEAN MASS Reapers). He managed to win the game. Maybe a Reaper expand could work? Other than that, I don't see any other builds. I'm having trouble against the 1 base Robo Immortal push as well. I already lost twice to it. (Platinum Division).
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I have been thinking about making this same exact post.
Post patch I have gone 3-17 vs Protoss. Pretty staggering difference. Im in plat and had a 63% win rate b4 patch. I don't think its just cause of the patch, but also because toss users have gotten the immortal push finely tuned. The problem with TvP is not about scouting, its not about what unit you have to get to counter or when to attack or anything like that. It's hoping that the Toss makes a mistake and you can exploit it, that's the only way I've been able to win lately.
Lately ive been doing 2 rax marines + ghost/3rd rax+techlab and doing ghost+marine with shield push. the only real problem with this is sentries FF. marines are cheaper and allow u to expo. i then tech to a starport+reactor. with timing it seems to have worked vs immortal push toss.
fast expanding is near suicide, you can hold off with fast tank but then u are on the defensive and toss can easily out expand+saturate its expansions well b4 terran. as you said i also dont want to call imbalance, but it is pretty tough currently.
ive been hoping to see/find a new build. i think the main problem is that, between its early tech + chronoboost, you can build immortals faster than you can marines.
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I dont' play Terran, but as a Protoss user I think what's most effective is to simply not expand until you get ghosts out. Protoss generally doesn't expand until quite late anyways so you won't be behind in the early game. If they do FE, then you can punish them really easily by bunker rushing or FE yourself.
What I've found that works well is to simply just wall off and harass harass harass with drops. It forces him to keep his army at home and lets you build up your units.
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I saw a game on Chill's stream, in which he went mech knowing full well the opponent would go Immortal, and he almost held the attack off. What I don't understand though, is why he would siege, if all attacks against an Immortal do 10 damage. If he did not siege, his tanks would have had a faster rate of fire, and would have been doing a lot more damage than they were. I didn't see the final hitpoints on the P player's last two immortals, but the fight appeared ridiculously close. Splash damage did not appear to be helping him.
If a player like Chill is siegeing in the face of an ability like that, I can't help but assume that all players are doing so. I could understand him siegeing some of his tanks, to pick off the Sentries faster, but to siege the entire army, didn't make sense to me, unless I really don't understand how the ability works.
I'm not trying to say that there isn't a problem, I'm just trying to say that perhaps not immediately investing in Siege Tech might help to counter the initial immortal push, if siege tech does nothing against them. Keeping your tanks sieged as often as possible has become of a bit of an instinct, but when facing an enemy who takes damage purely on based on the cooldown of the attack, perhaps it is not wise.
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why would u go tanks and not use siege? immortal can 3 shot a tank.
how many shots does a tank need to kill an immortal? i dont know but its ALOT! lol. its not even comparable.
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siege isnt good against immortals since your attack rate is slower but your damage is still capped at 10 for shields. on the other hand, u can use a mix, using those in siege to hit stalkers/zealots/sentries and those not in siege mode to hit immortals (as well as marauders, etc)
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On April 12 2010 12:12 PhiliBiRD wrote:
why would u go tanks and not use siege? immortal can 3 shot a tank.
Hilariously, tanks do more dmg/second against armoured units in tank mode rather than siege mode.
But yeah, every PvT i open with 1 gate robo, and i havent lost to mech in the last 200 games or so i've played, infact the only games ive lost PvT are ones where the terran does something to put my army out of position/cause me to do something dumb in which i've lost, even from a protoss perspective i think this match is broken as hell tbh.
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they need to nerf immortals, it is pretty obvious.
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Against Protoss teams I've started to do a early 2 reaper harrass and then quick switch to banshee.
By the time I send the 3rd reaper he should have a stalker out if he's not bad which is why I choose not to build more than 2 reapers. I send once the reaper is built.
Seeing as Protoss has a pretty weak anti-air (stalkers+blink & phoenix) it is easy to exploit this by getting a big air army. If they went immortals and which 90% of the time they do I can capitalize and harrass mercilessly. Air has way more mobility than the stalker which helps a bunch.
Usually if a game lasts late game I switch to marauders and medivacs (ghost included and the occasional tank) because the only way he's going to counter a good air army is mass stalkers wtih blink.
As for the expansion part. If I feel that if I've done enough damage to his economy I will expand and get the extra gas asap.
Pre-building the techlab addon with factory and barracks helps alot here for teching. I also do a fact/rax block on my choke to prevent any early push or counter push if he knows im getting air. Usually by the time he has his immortals by my choke I have banshees to counter it.
I'm a mid plat player. Not top but I haven't really run into any people thats giving me trouble with this strat. I do lose sometimes because I wasnt scouting properly or bad macro/micro (I find it hilarious that this usually happens to my first game of the day in the morning usually) . As long as you can get that reaper out ASAP and I mean as soon as possible to damage his economy.
On April 12 2010 12:22 Ftrunkz wrote:
Hilariously, tanks do more dmg/second against armoured units in tank mode rather than siege mode.
You're forgetting the splash siege mode.
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i havent tried mech much but i know protoss is weak vs air hard core
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I have started to see terrans moving to an earlier ghost and it seems pretty effective against the immortal push.
Ghosts are very effective against zealot/sentry, help to take down early immortals, and when shields are stripped do okay damage against stalkers (who also do reduced damage against ghosts). I would never suggests ghosts beat stalkers in a straight up fight (especially for cost), but combined with other units they fair alright.
So where is the early ghost failing? Is it that terrans cannot transition to beat the 2nd wave with collossus, or are you finding that even early ghosts can't stop immortal pushes?
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Early ghosts mean you just die to stalkers. If he goes early blink or even just mass stalker you won't have enough units and you'll be in the same crappy position. I played 90% of my TvP with fast ghost builds and I can verify that they give up so much map control and still die to blink stalkers. Also, if he's smart he'll just run in and draw emps only to run away til you have none left and THEN kill you =/
Even EMP'd immortals are ridiculously strong. 200 hp 50 dmg to armored. It's ridiculous.
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Man, so this is what I've been missing out... no wonder I keep losing to terran...
but I still think marauders en masse are the answer, just don't expo until you have stim.
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On April 12 2010 12:25 Warnipple wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 12:22 Ftrunkz wrote:
Hilariously, tanks do more dmg/second against armoured units in tank mode rather than siege mode. You're forgetting the splash siege mode.
You're forgetting the 13 range too. Siege Mode is a lot better than unsieged even against armoured units especially if you have the positioning.
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Like a few people posted, I to have had very little success against toss unless I'm doing some kind of reaper/banshee build. The match up is pretty fucked atm.
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On April 12 2010 12:23 avilo wrote:
they need to nerf immortals, it is pretty obvious.
no its not ^_^
immortals are an expensive, tier 2 unit that can only attack ground. balance seems fine to me as opposed to roach/mara which was a problem before.
I've tried fast ghost/siege expand builds, but they too have timing windows where I'm vulnerable, especially to stalkers with blink.
confuses me. first we're talking about an immortal push. now we're talking about a toss who is massing immortals AND getting a council AND massing stalkers AND getting blink? sounds like you have a macro problem sir.
Because you no longer have the ability to pressure early, protoss can tech much more safely without running the risk of dying to a pressure build.
uh, not true. whats changed is that zealots and stalker dont get roflstomped by a single marauder. if you go 3 or even 2 rax with proper micro against a toss who 1 gate robo techs you will win. same rules apply as in sc1.
immortal is fine. Terrans need to scout more, respond appropriately, or set the pace of the game. pick one.
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On April 12 2010 13:07 Floophead_III wrote:
Early ghosts mean you just die to stalkers. If he goes early blink or even just mass stalker you won't have enough units and you'll be in the same crappy position. I played 90% of my TvP with fast ghost builds and I can verify that they give up so much map control and still die to blink stalkers. Also, if he's smart he'll just run in and draw emps only to run away til you have none left and THEN kill you =/
Even EMP'd immortals are ridiculously strong. 200 hp 50 dmg to armored. It's ridiculous.
If he goes early blink and immortals he's gunna be much, much slower than a standard immo push. You'd have more than enough m&m + ghosts by that time to deal with it if you just went standard 3rax.
How's he running away from marauaders? You should research concussive shells asap, this is a no-brainer vs. protoss.
An early timing immo push is a scary thing, but if you are aware of what's going on, it's not impossible to stop. Just don't leave a bunch of free-kill depo's at your choke and get supply-blocked when he invades and you'll be able to re-enforce plenty fast enough. Immortals can't be warped in, and if you properly focus fire his (very few - due to the gas needed to fast tech robo and build immos) sentries at the start of the battle, then toss emp at the immortal, it's pretty much gg.
Don't forget, marauders reach critical mass not too long after immos become avalible (ie. the point where immos will just melt faster than they can kill the marauders due to sheer numbers and stim), so use any delaying tactics you can to prolong the game that extra few mins, and you'll have him regretting his mis-timed push.
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On April 12 2010 13:07 Floophead_III wrote:
Early ghosts mean you just die to stalkers. If he goes early blink or even just mass stalker you won't have enough units and you'll be in the same crappy position. I played 90% of my TvP with fast ghost builds and I can verify that they give up so much map control and still die to blink stalkers. Also, if he's smart he'll just run in and draw emps only to run away til you have none left and THEN kill you =/
Even EMP'd immortals are ridiculously strong. 200 hp 50 dmg to armored. It's ridiculous.
Well obviously if the Protoss is going mass blink stalkers you don't get early ghost.
This thread is about Immortal pushes, not stalker masses. Terrans need to realize that using a scan now and then is much more valuable than getting 250 minerals.
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On April 12 2010 13:23 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 13:07 Floophead_III wrote:
Early ghosts mean you just die to stalkers. If he goes early blink or even just mass stalker you won't have enough units and you'll be in the same crappy position. I played 90% of my TvP with fast ghost builds and I can verify that they give up so much map control and still die to blink stalkers. Also, if he's smart he'll just run in and draw emps only to run away til you have none left and THEN kill you =/
Even EMP'd immortals are ridiculously strong. 200 hp 50 dmg to armored. It's ridiculous. Well obviously if the Protoss is going mass blink stalkers you don't get early ghost. This thread is about Immortal pushes, not stalker masses. Terrans need to realize that using a scan now and then is much more valuable than getting 250 minerals.
Couldn't have said it better.
Immos and stalkers are nice, but that's a tall order, and you certainly aren't going to see blink stalkers and immos rolling in like a fast immo push. Marauders eat stalkers for breakfast, even if they are well micro'd stalkers. Don't know what you think changed about this MU. The only diffirence is the conc shell research, which only changed the cheesy strat of completely containing a protoss player from your very first marauder onward.
Floop, I really hope you don't think the tiny little research nerf went and broke TvP. If you're consistantly loosing to toss (who got no buffs aside from the void ray, which you haven't mentioned) this patch, you might want to consider how you were doing so well last patch. Perhaps you were a little too reliant on the marauder rush in TvP?
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aside from the stalkers with blink which is pretty rare. the main problem for us terrans (at least for me) is surviving the first committed push the toss makes. usually to survive it i have to bring in SCV's. by the time they push me i have at least 1 ghost, mostly marauder heavy army and stim. and starting to produce marines from 3rd rax. most of the time toss just A+moves me and wins.
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I tried thors today and it turned out better than i expected. The 250mm cannon thing 1hit KOs immortals for 100 energy. Imo, i think it's worth it to kill 1 immortal rather than getting emp and having it live for another day.
Replay here
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On April 12 2010 13:47 PhiliBiRD wrote:
aside from the stalkers with blink which is pretty rare. the main problem for us terrans (at least for me) is surviving the first committed push the toss makes. usually to survive it i have to bring in SCV's. by the time they push me i have at least 1 ghost, mostly marauder heavy army and stim. and starting to produce marines from 3rd rax. most of the time toss just A+moves me and wins.
If he a-moves into your base then you should have no problem. If that was just an exaggeration, link me a replay and i'll try to help ya out.
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Unfortunately, the Thor takes forever to start firing his 250mm cannon. It could have killed a stalker/zealot in the time it takes the cannons to start firing. You know for sure that his immortals will target your thor. I will initiate the 250mm cannons from 2 thors, and they will both be dead before the animation finishes. He will have 2x the immortals as your thor count easily.
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On April 12 2010 13:56 imBLIND wrote:I tried thors today and it turned out better than i expected. The 250mm cannon thing 1hit KOs immortals for 100 energy. Imo, i think it's worth it to kill 1 immortal rather than getting emp and having it live for another day. Replay here
I can't watch the replay atm, but that doesn't seem viable to me although it's an interesting idea. Thors take awhile to build, require an armory which takes forever to build, and take awhile to get 100 energy after they've been produced... and killing 1 immortal with 250mm cannon isn't going to win the game, since they can easily have 4 or more on the field. What was your unit mix? Maruader/thor I'm guessing? I can't see the thor being a better choice than ghosts (600mins/400 gas for fact+armory+thor, which could be used for ghost academy + 2 ghosts instead). Also, what was your plan after getting a thor out? Continue doing thor/maruader? I have a feeling that storm/immortal/stalker/zealot would eat that combo alive.
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I think what would help is too make the Immortal shields have to be researched at the Templar archives or another building. Delay the massive benefits this unit has in the same way maurdors are required to research concussion.
That and lower their damage (25+10)
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On April 12 2010 14:36 Khadgars wrote:
I think what would help is too make the Immortal shields have to be researched at the Templar archives or another building. Delay the massive benefits this unit has in the same way maurdors are required to research concussion.
That and lower their damage (25+10)
oo thts a pretty neat idea...
It would really help for terran and zerg when they have to deal with a fast robo immortal rush...
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On April 12 2010 14:42 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 14:36 Khadgars wrote:
I think what would help is too make the Immortal shields have to be researched at the Templar archives or another building. Delay the massive benefits this unit has in the same way maurdors are required to research concussion.
That and lower their damage (25+10) oo thts a pretty neat idea... It would really help for terran and zerg when they have to deal with a fast robo immortal rush...
It would only make sense if it was upgraded at the robotics facility. I guess it's because I've been going mainly bio in TvP but for me colossi are the problem, not immortals. I guess immortals are the counter to mech though, while colossi counter bio pretty well.
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Assuming the immortal needs a nerf, I would go with its damage over the shields personally.
The thing is named the "IMMORTAL" for a reason, I don't want it to be just a big stalker. But with reduced damage it would still be a strong unit capable of taking loads of punishment, just not dealing back endless swarms in kind.
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Anyone post me the immo timing push's BO so i can have a play with friends and see how we go defending it?
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-Does anyone have a viable safe build that works against protoss immortal push?
-Do immortals need to either be moved up the tech tree or take longer to make (some sort of delay to keep them from being massed so early)?
1. If they go immortal you go Marines. they are good counter for immortal because there shields are just good agains damage over 10 if i remember right. so steamed marines will own them. (maybe they´ve changed this shield in a patch i dont know)
2. Immortals is good as they are, they need to be able to get fast enough to counter an early roach or marauder attack. other wise protoss would stand that much of a chance in that kind of attack. And if Immortals are mass produced a mass group of marines will own that i think.
but this just if you see to what unit counter what unit. another thing is that Immortal just attack ground units. so Banshee is ofc a good choice againts protoss overall imo.
, but they is higher up in the tech tree i guess.
For Banshee you need: rax-facility-starport-techlab on starport
For Immortal you need: Gateway-Cybernetics Core-Robotic Facility
And neither of them can attack air, so in that fight the banshee wins because they are an air unit.
But the whole point in SC and SC2 is to go the right unit aginst other units.
But if Immortals could get counter by every unit they would be useless and that would be a crap unit. So IMHO i dont think they need a change at all in the tech tree. And they dont need a nerf.
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On April 12 2010 14:36 Khadgars wrote:
I think what would help is too make the Immortal shields have to be researched at the Templar archives or another building. Delay the massive benefits this unit has in the same way maurdors are required to research concussion.
That and lower their damage (25+10)
I actually made a post about this earlier, but I guess I didn't reason myself well enough and the thread got closed... I honestly believe either the build time of Immortals should be longer, and/or their damage vs. armored units has to be an upgrade, perhaps from the robo bay. Any of these would greatly increase Terran's early survivability...
Against Protoss recently I've been experimenting with this build with moderate success: 1rax+tech at normal timing, reaper. Try to harass with the first reaper while making a bunker with an scv at the Protoss nat. The key is to keep that reaper alive, and put it inside that bunker after it's done the job. After 1~2 reapers I would make a marauder and put it in that bunker, scv staying there to repair the bunker of course to delay the protoss. Meanwhile at home I expo, then add barracks or factories. Then to fend off the inevitable Immortal attack, I use 2~3 bunkers at my nat. with 2~3 REAPERS (I think this is key as their attack power is pretty respectable), marauders and marines inside, with perhaps a tank in the back. I play at the middle Plat. level. I actually was able to survive more than 50% of the time, but I'm not sure if it's just the Protoss reacting badly to this play style.
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On April 12 2010 15:30 Trollfar wrote:
-Does anyone have a viable safe build that works against protoss immortal push?
-Do immortals need to either be moved up the tech tree or take longer to make (some sort of delay to keep them from being massed so early)?
1. If they go immortal you go Marines. they are good counter for immortal because there shields are just good agains damage over 10 if i remember right. so steamed marines will own them. (maybe they´ve changed this shield in a patch i dont know)
2. Immortals is good as they are, they need to be able to get fast enough to counter an early roach or marauder attack. other wise protoss would stand that much of a chance in that kind of attack. And if Immortals are mass produced a mass group of marines will own that i think.
but this just if you see to what unit counter what unit. another thing is that Immortal just attack ground units. so Banshee is ofc a good choice againts protoss overall imo.
, but they is higher up in the tech tree i guess.
For Banshee you need: rax-facility-starport-techlab on starport
For Immortal you need: Gateway-Cybernetics Core-Robotic Facility
And neither of them can attack air, so in that fight the banshee wins because they are an air unit.
But the whole point in SC and SC2 is to go the right unit aginst other units.
But if Immortals could get counter by every unit they would be useless and that would be a crap unit. So IMHO i dont think they need a change at all in the tech tree. And they dont need a nerf.
1, 2 - If you're talking about Marines strictly against Immortals, sure. But marine tech is not sustainable. Protoss Colossus (even just 1) mixed with Immortals, storm, own marines en masse. It's not pretty. Perhaps marines can serve as a buffer between the Protoss army and siege tanks, so the immortals' shield get taken down if they try to reach the tank... but I don't know if anyone's been able to pull this off yet.
You cannot compare Banshee tech to Immortal tech this way. Protoss has many uses of the Robotics Facility other than the Immortal - Observers, Colossus, are both very much needed units for Protoss. The Banshee tech tree will only get you Ravens, and they generally come out much later because of the high gas cost. For early to mid game, Robo facility is a MUST for protoss, while a starport with tech addon doesn't quite fit into the picture the same way.
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trollfar, u completely defended immortals, but u gave no answer as to how we are to deal with them. sure we can go marines, but if we get stim we wont have medivacs, and probably not sheild. so that turns 45 hp marines into 35. marines are too fragile to take on a toss army directly, we need mrauders to tank. but marauders are TOO fragile vs immortals so we have no unit that can take damage.
thats the issue here.
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On April 12 2010 14:24 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 13:56 imBLIND wrote:I tried thors today and it turned out better than i expected. The 250mm cannon thing 1hit KOs immortals for 100 energy. Imo, i think it's worth it to kill 1 immortal rather than getting emp and having it live for another day. Replay here I can't watch the replay atm, but that doesn't seem viable to me although it's an interesting idea. Thors take awhile to build, require an armory which takes forever to build, and take awhile to get 100 energy after they've been produced... and killing 1 immortal with 250mm cannon isn't going to win the game, since they can easily have 4 or more on the field. What was your unit mix? Maruader/thor I'm guessing? I can't see the thor being a better choice than ghosts (600mins/400 gas for fact+armory+thor, which could be used for ghost academy + 2 ghosts instead). Also, what was your plan after getting a thor out? Continue doing thor/maruader? I have a feeling that storm/immortal/stalker/zealot would eat that combo alive.
Oddly enough, it's viable enough with the thor being able to be built in the same time as a single banshee. Although it is more expensive, having 2 thors allow you to snipe stalkers easily and you can snipe immortals with 250mm.
I use marine/thor at first because i need the dps of the marine to go with the thor. I might change my mind later if i find thor/marauder to be better, but marines complement the thor just fine.
By the time I'm able to get 2 thors, the other guy has 3 immortals and some other stuff en route. The traveling distance also helps a lot with getting 2 thors out in time before his mini push arrives.
I can't say this is better than 2rax marauder FE, but it does seem to work to some extent.
What I like about going thors is that i can get siege tanks as well, which owns every toss unit except for the immortal. W/ the 250mm and sieged tanks, i feel like it deflects an immortal push better than marauders.
This would fare pretty badly vs fast stalker or zealot aggression, but a bunker easily solves those problems.
An interesting thing I discovered is that the immobilizing effect makes them unable to attack as well, which is nice considering immortals 2-3 hit KOs any terran ground unit except for the thor. Now only if this ability had a longer range...
Here's another replay
Replay
Screwed up in the beginning so i only have 1 thor...
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What exactly changed in patch 8? Just the concussion change, no? I actually switched from terran to protoss before patch 8 hit because TvP was just 2 rax ghost and a-move to victory for me. I'm really surprised people keep claiming immortals are so overpowered in that matchup.
Anyways, they really do die fast to EMP+ marauder, and theoretically at least they'd die fast to any sort of marine army, but I can't think of any build that'd get a ton of marines fast.
If I had to guess I'd say you either expand too fast or you don't bother using stimpack^^;. Or you try to use stimpack and then EMP, which almost always used to give me forcefields in the face and ghost snipes. Terrans roll over me just fine as toss after patch 8, even when I go immortal. I'm only rank 1 in gold but that should still translate to somewhere around the 30 plat from the games against plats that I do play
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On April 12 2010 12:22 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 12:12 PhiliBiRD wrote:
why would u go tanks and not use siege? immortal can 3 shot a tank.
Hilariously, tanks do more dmg/second against armoured units in tank mode rather than siege mode.
Isnt the important part the HUGE range in siege mode? Siege attack also deal splash and tank mode non-splash damage, right? So the "true purpose" of sieged tanks should be to get rid of the Sentries which scew up your masses of Marines and then have the Marines finish the Immortal while the tank is out of range. If you are defending Marine + Tank against Protoss you have LOTS of Marines and Sentries screws that up a lot with the Forcefield by pushing them apart, isolating half of your troops out of range or blocking reinforcements from the ramp.
So IMO the real issue isnt the Immortal, but rather the Forcefield. Bunkers to neutralize the Forcefield are a possibility, but a really early push might catch you before they are completed in a sufficient number. Early on the bunkers arent "free" as many people always say.
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I also found my winning rate against protoss drastically dropped after last patch. terran has to adjust its previously functional strat and adapt themselves to the new TvP mechanism.
my problem with the early ghost strat is the zealot. when mixed with right amount of zealots, the initial push with immortals will inflict huge damage to terrans who goes fast ghost, since terran simply doesn't have enough resource to go for 3 rax while getting concussive shells, stim and ghost ready in time, not to mention a decent amount of hellions and medivacs. so what would you expect to counter zealots with guardian shields? at that stage, marauder kiting won't do as they will slowly be consumed by stalkers and immortals while hit&running zealots. if you choose to take out the immortal with the help of emp first, great, you find your self in the middle of a good pack of zealots.
i'm not saying its a direct GG. but it's hard for terran for it lost early map control due to marauder nerf, which leads to zero pressure on the toss while teching up. TvP mechanism has totally changed. anyone?
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On April 12 2010 15:30 Trollfar wrote:
-Does anyone have a viable safe build that works against protoss immortal push?
-Do immortals need to either be moved up the tech tree or take longer to make (some sort of delay to keep them from being massed so early)?
1. If they go immortal you go Marines. they are good counter for immortal because there shields are just good agains damage over 10 if i remember right. so steamed marines will own them. (maybe they´ve changed this shield in a patch i dont know)
2. Immortals is good as they are, they need to be able to get fast enough to counter an early roach or marauder attack. other wise protoss would stand that much of a chance in that kind of attack. And if Immortals are mass produced a mass group of marines will own that i think.
but this just if you see to what unit counter what unit. another thing is that Immortal just attack ground units. so Banshee is ofc a good choice againts protoss overall imo.
, but they is higher up in the tech tree i guess.
For Banshee you need: rax-facility-starport-techlab on starport
For Immortal you need: Gateway-Cybernetics Core-Robotic Facility
And neither of them can attack air, so in that fight the banshee wins because they are an air unit.
But the whole point in SC and SC2 is to go the right unit aginst other units.
But if Immortals could get counter by every unit they would be useless and that would be a crap unit. So IMHO i dont think they need a change at all in the tech tree. And they dont need a nerf.
I do go marines. Guardian shield and gateway units tear through them so fast though. Marines are a fantastic buffer, but they take so long to build up and die so fast. Once that buffer is gone you're screwed.
Immortals are not required anymore to keep protoss alive. Stalkers do fine in killing off early terran pressure of any kind, and roaches too. Force field is still as good as ever allowing protoss to block their ramp if needed. I never seem to see a game where protoss has to rush immortals to stay alive, so if you can point me to some by all means do it.
Banshees are not an option, you die before you get them, and if you do manage to get them you have to use them to defend the attack on your base. Then you're left with a scouted banshee tech vs a protoss who is now going mass stalker/observer, and you still lose horribly.
The point in sc2 is NOT to go the right unit vs other units, or I hope that's not what the designers are intending. It should be more about going a strong mixed composition which relies on micro to fight varying forces. You can vary your force composition somewhat, but it's the same core unit combo with various supporting units. I believe that protoss pretty much is already finished with regard to this. Protoss has so many options and viable compositions. Terran is getting better, but we're reaching a point where we realize they're in trouble without marauder spam. Zerg is still awful with regard to unit composition.
=============On another note=============
I did play another couple games (again vs mesmerize), and I had some reasonable success by going 1 rax 1 fact opening, with a fast tank and marines. I then got a ghost academy and an engineering bay after my factory got up, and a tech lab for ghosts on my rax as my academy finished. I was able to stay alive with marines/tanks (1 bunker). I got a nice turret ring up and actually managed to kill a prism with 2 immortals by trapping it in my base with turrets which was a huge boon. However, I STILL had a ridiculously hard time pushing out to take my expansion, and after struggling forever to get it up I managed to secure my 2nd base!
However, mesmerize also expanded (across the map in a main to block with pylons/forge to prevent hellions from getting in). He then proceeded to completely demolish my push, partially due to mismicro and partially because he just had so much stuff.
If he hadn't lost his prism carelessly I would've easily lost the game I feel. I barely survived with a PF tanks AND EMP. I also think an even better protoss player (I'm looking at you Huk =D) would simply demolish that opening. I just don't see how terran can win TvP anymore.
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this problem is primarily at high level platinum play, its not JUST the last patch, its that toss has gotten the immortal push down well at the same time. and its not just 1 person saying they are having this problem, its basically every terran I know and everyone on the forums, the ones that disagree are lower level platinum or gold and just havent experienced a strong toss player.
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On April 12 2010 16:08 PhiliBiRD wrote:
this problem is primarily at high level platinum play, its not JUST the last patch, its that toss has gotten the immortal push down well at the same time. and its not just 1 person saying they are having this problem, its basically every terran I know and everyone on the forums, the ones that disagree are lower level platinum or gold and just havent experienced a strong toss player.
Just watching Huk play this weekend made me want to quit terran. THAT is how you play PvT. Anyone who thinks TvP isn't impossible needs to watch his play.
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On April 12 2010 16:09 Floophead_III wrote:
Just watching Huk play this weekend made me want to quit terran. THAT is how you play PvT. Anyone who thinks TvP isn't impossible needs to watch his play.
Who is Huk, and where is this replay? 1700+ plat protoss have been tearing me a new one these days.
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On April 12 2010 16:16 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 16:09 Floophead_III wrote:
Just watching Huk play this weekend made me want to quit terran. THAT is how you play PvT. Anyone who thinks TvP isn't impossible needs to watch his play. Who is Huk, and where is this replay? 1700+ plat protoss have been tearing me a new one these days.
I don't know if there are any vods, but he totally dominated in the inflow tournament, craftcup (we're not going to talk about the DQ here -_-) and the triple strike cup. I think he's lost to like, 1 terran out of 20? It's ridiculous. TvP is so ridiculous that QXC actually proxy 8 rax reaper rushed him and STILL lost to the immortal push after killing like 8 probes.
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Well alright, I watched all 3 replays, and putting the whole "immortal overpowered" aside, that just was a crappy strategy to go against a toss that goes mass immortal^^;. I mean he practically pumped out pure immortals at the end cause all you had was tanks with a few marines trinkled in. Isn't that exactly the unit combination that the immortal was designed to counter? I don't see how it's surprising in any way that you got your front broken every time when you teched straight to siege tank against a protoss that teched to immortal, the COUNTER unit to a siege tank. Yes you had marines, but rines off of one rax was obviously not enough. I'm not saying the immortal isn't overpowered, but I am saying that no matter how much you nerf the immortal, it should NEVER lose to the army composition you were going for, because hardened shields are in the game to break a siege turtle.
Incidentally, do marines do well against stalkers? I honestly don't know, but at one point 2 marines take an immortal down to half health in replay 2 I think. Or at least a giant chunk of health. Why don't you try an all-marine switch when you see a huge number of immortals instead of trying to expand and adding 2 extra factories for more tanks.
Not saying that's viable, but I AM saying whatever you tried to do was NOT viable versus immortal. You just refused to adjust to your opponent. Although I understand you were testing a build
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floop can u link the huk vs qxc replays?
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+1 on the Huk replays. Even sentry/zealot is pwning Terran these days.
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My success has been found with fast expo+ lots of bunkers pumping guys from 1 rax until you can make banshees and get cloak and then steamroll him over
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my suggestions to do a step in the right direction in TvP balance ( btw im top 20 euro plat player )
- make the immortal only do +30 damage against roach/marauder and NOT against buildings/mech. AND add a 150/150 110 sec to complete research which allow them to do +30 again against all. SO toss still has their good hardcounter unit but not instantly an unit which does too well agaisnt most terran units.
OR
- reduce the immortal attack casting speed. Come on, 50 damage AND normal speed is too much. Make it slow, like tank in siege mode.
OR
- revert marines changes from 2 patch. Make them 20 sec again to train and also revert reactor change. The SCV + marines cheese is just not viable with 45 hp SCV imo. But with more marines early terrans would have a better early/midgame against P and would be in a better shape to fight the overpowered mid game immo push.
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On April 12 2010 16:57 link0 wrote:
+1 on the Huk replays. Even sentry/zealot is pwning Terran these days.
4warpgate rush countered marauder FE even before the patch8
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I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies.
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stil what i said is true. Marine is good counter against Immortal... and no marines dont stand a chance against storms and colossus and i did never say that at all.... read again.. Marines are good against immortals.
They asked what to go against Immortals, and not Immortals + Storms or + Colossus and some obeservers and mothership and blinking stalkers etc, etc.... it was just Immortals they asked for so i made an answer. Marines or Banshee is good against them...
They will tech switch, and you will have to aswell if you wanna survive... thats how it is working..
It´s not a bad choice to go marines against stalkers. But Ghost with EMP is really good against Protoss overall! but i dont know how long it takes to build them. this is just a brainstorm. But i hate the EMP as i am a protoss player.
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On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies.
Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units.
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On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units.
=__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm)
But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals.
I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research.
Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$
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My problem is that I havent been able to find an end game unit comp that actually works. I'm actually pretty good at getting on 3 base and even being ahead of the Protoss In econ. However, I can't find any mix that actually works. Robo units by themselves seem to counter any Terran ground army. I've tried all the bio and mech combos that I can think of including mixing in thors. Rank ~13 plat.
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On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$
There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference.
And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot.
Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed.
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I play all 3 races and I have to say I don't think Terran has EVER been even against Protoss.
Obviously Terran had that ridiculous proxy barracks rush that was an instant-win, or the super fast reapers and more recently very early pressure with mass marauders and ghosts in close positions.
And Terran will continue to be powerful early game due to the Mule advantage.
However on distant positions or in a long game I just don't believe Terran is even with Protoss.
Collsosus/immortal/Zealot/Sentry/stalker create this ball of destruction that an even supply Terran army just has no absoultely no chance against, it's not even close. The sentries tear the Terran army in half, the collosus/templar aoe the crap out of everything and the Zealots clean up.
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On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed.
qft
if going mech doesn't work. don't do it... you wouldn't ever +1 speedlot against a terran in sc1 would you?
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On April 12 2010 21:42 Klive5ive wrote:
I play all 3 races and I have to say I don't think Terran has EVER been even against Protoss.
Obviously Terran had that ridiculous proxy barracks rush that was an instant-win, or the super fast reapers and more recently very early pressure with mass marauders and ghosts in close positions.
And Terran will continue to be powerful early game due to the Mule advantage.
However on distant positions or in a long game I just don't believe Terran is even with Protoss.
Collsosus/immortal/Zealot/Sentry/stalker create this ball of destruction that an even supply Terran army just has no absoultely no chance against, it's not even close. The sentries tear the Terran army in half, the collosus/templar aoe the crap out of everything and the Zealots clean up.
Um... have you ever tried using banshees, vikings, ghosts+EMP & M+M+M?
Just a thought, and I can't believe I'm helping terran players here, but I want this game to be balanced as much as the next guy - please try that out late game and you'll figure out how powerful your air is.
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IMO Immortals are fine, Blizzard just needs to increase their build time a little (like 10-20 secs). It's ridiculous how fast they come out with chronoboost. Protoss will be OK vs roaches with stalkers even if immortals come out a few seconds later.
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On April 12 2010 22:03 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:42 Klive5ive wrote:
I play all 3 races and I have to say I don't think Terran has EVER been even against Protoss.
Obviously Terran had that ridiculous proxy barracks rush that was an instant-win, or the super fast reapers and more recently very early pressure with mass marauders and ghosts in close positions.
And Terran will continue to be powerful early game due to the Mule advantage.
However on distant positions or in a long game I just don't believe Terran is even with Protoss.
Collsosus/immortal/Zealot/Sentry/stalker create this ball of destruction that an even supply Terran army just has no absoultely no chance against, it's not even close. The sentries tear the Terran army in half, the collosus/templar aoe the crap out of everything and the Zealots clean up. Um... have you ever tried using banshees, vikings, ghosts+EMP & M+M+M? Just a thought, and I can't believe I'm helping terran players here, but I want this game to be balanced as much as the next guy - please try that out late game and you'll figure out how powerful your air is.
Of course I know about Banshees and Vikings, they are pretty standard against Protoss.
I think it just highlights the lack of options the Terran has that banshees are even considered against an opponent that has observers and the ability to instantly warp stalkers in anywhere. Don't forget the stalker buff increased their effectiveness against Banshees too.
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i think i'm doing ok now tvp (like 50% practicing this build) by developing a hellion opening with igniter into 1 medivac (to drop) with lots of marines to hold my ramp/into expo.
basically the only thing keeping a protoss in his base (for a lot of players) is his lack of multitasking to hold hellion drops or hellion map control if his main force leaves his base.
this delay helps me expand and pump out a shit ton of marines, and 1-2 medivacs to defend against most 3+ immortal pushes with 2-3 bunkers, from there i transition into tanks / marines and turtle hop over to his base.
if he gets templars tanks are pretty good at ff'ing them if you micro accordingly.
if he gets collossus, you just need more bunkers on your timing push over to his base, or you can pump a few vikings from your early starport.
if he drops my tank count during the push it's usually the time i lose.
the dropship play with hellions helps greatly as he is either forced to leave 2-3 stalkers in his base or build cannons.
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On April 12 2010 15:51 PhiliBiRD wrote:
trollfar, u completely defended immortals, but u gave no answer as to how we are to deal with them. sure we can go marines, but if we get stim we wont have medivacs, and probably not sheild. so that turns 45 hp marines into 35. marines are too fragile to take on a toss army directly, we need mrauders to tank. but marauders are TOO fragile vs immortals so we have no unit that can take damage.
thats the issue here.
I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood, but you expect tier 1 units to tank? To me it's clear that the Terrans' advantage over immortal pushes is sheer numbers, but maybe I'm way over the line..
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I think most terrans are so used to strong maradeurs that when they die "oh immortals are to strong!".
Just don't FE. If you are not able to execute morrow's or lucifron's FE builds that means you are not good enough.
I wouldn't say I am good at stacraft but when I play I never try to execute gosu strats and mostly rely on my feelings and antitcipations. I win a lot skilled players who don't fully understand those strats and yet try to execute them. They don't know how to act against some crazy mixes or decisions.
Another problem is multitasking.
You can harass not hurting their eco but to keep busy (fly around with couple of banshee), they will be less focused on army production or expanding. Meanwhile you can build armies and expand. That works great on middle platinum players.
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On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies.
Apparently adapting and changing to reasonable playstyles is not a valid hypothesis these days. Heh.
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On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed.
I disagree.
Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good.
Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army.
The options a Terran right now has are:
a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals.
b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs.
c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed.
The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right?
Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
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On April 12 2010 22:26 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Another problem is multitasking.
You can harass not hurting their eco but to keep busy (fly around with couple of banshee), they will be less focused on army production or expanding. Meanwhile you can build armies and expand. That works great on middle platinum players.
The immortal timing push which is being discussed here comes well before banshees.. at least in any respectable quantity. With warpgate a 1-2 banshee harass is mostly ineffective as a toss can produce multiple stalkers in the appropriate location instantly.
I don't wanna call imbalance or anything... to be honest I try so many different strats every game (from 9rax proxy cheese, to FE, to mech, to 3rax ghost play) that I'm having a good time even if I'm losing just because I'm learning. With that said I feel even if I was to really try and win every game (but it's beta ladder so I don't care... and for what it's worth i'm like a rank 3-6 plat player) I would struggle to find a strat which consistently beats the immortal timing push.
For what it's worth I have done reasonably well with 3rax (2 tech lab 1 reactor) marine marauder mass. This didn't used to work at all until I started using 3 ghosts instead of 1. Yeah it's heavy on gas but with reduced EMP range you kind of need it vs. any decent toss whose immortals aren't stacked on each other. The obvious issue with this strat is that 3 ghosts means less gas for tech like stim and concussive shells... I'm thinking that maybe limiting myself to 2 ghosts would leave me with enough resources to at least get stim in a timely fashion.
Another idea I had which would have worked AMAZINGLY well had it not been for my own colossal micro error (rightclick moving my SCVs instead of attack moving them while defending an immortal push) was to hide 3 hellions (yes this requires a different build... like a 1ghost MM fac sort of deal) in a random location and make sure I scouted enough to see the immortal push coming. Once the immortals pass your hellions make a dash for his mineral line and rape his probes. When I did it I had been awake for like 30 hours or something and my multitasking was much worse than normal but regardless I killed all but like 4 probes. If I'd had the normal presence of mind I could have easily fended off the immortal push and left him with basically no economy to speak of.
Anyone else wanna try these ideas out and let me know how it goes?
TLDR: Hide hellions and rush their probes while immortal push comes.. or try a build with more than 1 ghost since EMP radius was nerfed.
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Mech can still be used for support, hellion with igniters are great harassers and zealot/templar killers while actually lasting quite long against toss ranged units. A couple siege tanks is also fine as long as there is enough fodder to keep the immortals from reaching them, with EMP the immortals still get shredded by tanks afterall.
Pure mech play is just impossible in any matchup at the moment, which has more to do with the 3 mech units then just the immortal really.
Immortals are still fine to be honest, they don't beat marauders that hard really as 1 immortal costs the same as 3 marauders. When emp & stim arrive marauders can actually beat immortals,
all that changed was 1 upgrade making marauders not automatically counter zealots at start which in turn made FEing completely safe.
Expoing is harder for terran now but making a OC inside your wall and floating it over when you have marauder and ghost works fine actually. Offcourse you're expo is up later but a wall will still help you defend against zealot + immortal pushes. With regard to pure immortal pushing not much changed, immortals only got a bit better at abusing shield regen as they can more easily run away now.
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On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:
Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army.
The options a Terran right now has are:
a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals.
b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs.
c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed.
I heard that, in SC2, instead of producing mass units of one kind you can mix them together. Do you find mixing a few Banshees with a mech army unreasonable, impossible or hard to pull off?
On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:
The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right?
Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
A single unit can not shut down an entire tech tree, since it is easily dispatched with few units of a different tech tree. Do not think anyone is actually trapped in your fallacies.
You could've made the argument the mech tree sucks, which is actually true, and I'd support it. Immortals have nothing to do with it.
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I really don't see why Terran's have problems with Immortals. Personally, I don't use them anymore in TvP, cuz' they get raped sooo hard by Ghosts and because you basically need very fast High-Templars to stand a chance against any Terran-Army with Ghost's in it, especially M&M&M.
Also, Immortals suck against fast-Banshees and various other sorts of cheese like Hellion-Drops.
Besides, going Mech-only is maybe just not the way to go in SC2, but mixing in a few Tanks in TvP is IMHO very good, especially if you wanna play more defensively and secure additional bases by slowly pushing forwards.
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really dont focus on what unit you should NOT go against the opponents unit and get angry and start complain.
Focus on what units and mix that are decent againts it and can counter his units. Thats the way you will win.
If you are just thinking about what units that will loose and get anoyed by that well then you deserve to loose.
And really i think if they would change the build time for Immortals then a really early roach attack could woop the protoss race.
Btw just a fast question, does the stimpack effect stack if used many times after eachother? or does it just get the same effect even if you reduce the HP to 1?
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
You mean like the Thor denies mutas, how the effing marine denies P air up until the equivalent of BCs? Yeah, good thing the immortal is the only unit in game that makes an entire tech tree unfeaseable against a certain race...
And those t1-T1,5 units are the only thing you use right? Because medivacs, ghosts (with an EMP that totally rapes immortals and is very good against all Ps units), vikings and banshees aren't used in PvT at all... So many terrans are neglecting the ghosts undogdeable EMP when they are talking about immortals that it isn't even funny.
If you want to "balance" a game, at least have a little bit of perspective and see what the suggested nerfs to the immortal would do to the 2 relevant MUs:
1) Let's make hardend shields researchable:
TvP: Sup marauder all-in rush
ZvP: sup mass roaches are back in the game (yeah you try holding off all-in roaches with any combination of zeal/sentry/stalker and tell me how that goes)
2) Let's make the immortal into a purely tanking unit:
Both MUs: the retards might go "lol hey I'll go shoot on this unit specifically designed to tank which deals 0 damage while his zeals/sentry/stalkers rapes me", but let's face it - most people are in fact in equipped with something called a brain and would target fire the low hp but high dps units first and then proceed to kill the immortals later.
Please note that this isn't because I'm against a mech buff, I just don't think that the immortal warrants a nerf only because terrans wants to go mech. If you want to make mech more viable, buff mech. In fact, I'm very much for more tech options, just like I would like to see some air options for toss which doesn't involve heavy cheese and is countered by 200/400 minerals worth of tier 1 units (god I miss D-web).
Let the flame about "first post" begin...
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On April 12 2010 23:05 mfukar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:
Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army.
The options a Terran right now has are:
a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals.
b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs.
c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. I heard that, in SC2, instead of producing mass units of one kind you can mix them together. Do you find mixing a few Banshees with a mech army unreasonable, impossible or hard to pull off? Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:
The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right?
Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
A single unit can not shut down an entire tech tree, since it is easily dispatched with few units of a different tech tree. Do not think anyone is actually trapped in your fallacies. You could've made the argument the mech tree sucks, which is actually true, and I'd support it. Immortals have nothing to do with it.
Thanks for that.
I can't believe how many whiners are here, horrible.
The Immortal push is not imba, not remotely. I see hundreds of players executing one and the same strategy (mass marauder) all day long and once P figures out a way to beat it, its OP. Lord I sure hope Blizzard doesn't listen to this crap. So what's a proper response to the immortal push? A decent counter is marauder and some marines (yes they do terrible terrible damage when a few are mixed inbetween). Once you hold that push, expand get a proper sight of the map and go UP you tech tree (and yes, there is something that is BEYOND marauder) - for instance: cloaked banshee, Thor (yes they get now build a lot faster and are quite strong with a proper meatwall), Vikings (for collossus), ghosts (remember the nuke?, oh emp totally rapes most Protoss units and is YOUR counter to storm and immortal, what has P to counter that huh? nothing than proper positioning) and so on.
Chase of observers using turrets so P cant catch you offguard so easy, no wonder you guys get force fielded so easy once we see EVERYTHING and choose the spot PROTOSS would like to fight.
Use some fokus fire to the Immortals, ones off shield (and it does only counter hard attacks) they die like a zergling.
Terran should finally get used to that there wont be much of tanks in PvT anymore since Marauder replace them. They got their place in TvT and TvZ. Tough Thor and all air units (since Terran now clearly has air dominance) are made to hurt Protoss players, so start learning that playstyle instead off ripping off a unit absolutely necessary for Protoss to beat macromonster Zergs and get PvP and PvZ completely broken again.
EDIT:
@Ghostcom, good first post, pointed that "arguments" often used by that 1 strategy players out quite well
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No, the immortal push isn't unbeatable. However, it always puts terran at a disadvantage, whether by tech, economy, or military. As I said, my strategies actually work fairly well, but no matter what I do I'm at a disadvantage all game. In the last game I played I did make it to midgame, but only because I got a free kill on 2 immortals and a shuttle. I would've lost my expo easily if 2 more immortals were shooting at it as one point it was at like 100 hp.
People seem to think that if you mass marauders that you'll somehow be ok, but zealot/sentry/immortal destroys mass marauder so easily. Protoss also can freely drop harass because you have a whopping 2 marines or something. Oh, and on top of that, colossi also completely demolish bio builds. Now that protoss doesn't have to fear instant death from bio rushes, they can tech safely, make a better army composition, and play for midgame from the start. Terran has to try so hard not to die, and then is left with a garbage midgame army.
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I've never said that nerfing Immortal is the right way to go, did I? I just pointed out that the reason why you can't go mech right now is because of the existence of the immortal. And that the wish of Terran players to go mech is not some preference (like someone mentiod above) but rather more a question of unit diversity in a specific matchup. If you can make mech more accessible without touching the immortal, go on. I'd love to see that.
Still the "game flow" is somewhat broken in TvP right now. While in TvZ there is always a counter to a counter to a counter etc. (Marine -> Zergling / Baneling -> Hellion -> Roach -> Marauder -> Mutalisks or Hydra -> Thor or Tank -> Infestor -> etc.) in TvP you always get countered by a superior force.
If you OPEN UP with Mech than you are hard countered by immortals. That forces you (yes, it does) to start your BO with MMM what than again is hard countered by any mid and late game unit composition that P decides to go (e.g. Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs).
There is no back and forth but rather more a "do what P says and still be at an disadvantage". And THIS is something that I believe is caused by the Immortal and his ability to kill the mech tree (no, this does not mean you need to nerf the immortal if you can find another way).
By the way, I know you can mix in Vikings, Banshees and what not (just for reference: I'm top 8 Platinum right now) but a Toss Ball Unit Mix is always stronger than a Terran Ball that is mostly made of MMM.
But seriously, some of you guys need to calm down...
EDIT:
People seem to think that if you mass marauders that you'll somehow be ok, but zealot/sentry/immortal destroys mass marauder so easily. Protoss also can freely drop harass because you have a whopping 2 marines or something. Oh, and on top of that, colossi also completely demolish bio builds. Now that protoss doesn't have to fear instant death from bio rushes, they can tech safely, make a better army composition, and play for midgame from the start. Terran has to try so hard not to die, and then is left with a garbage midgame army.
THIS! Thanks for backing me up 
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How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers.
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On April 13 2010 00:36 sysrpl wrote:
How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers.
How about this, protoss gets a colossus.
Seriously, do you even think through what you post before you post it?
If anyone has a standard, noncheese opening which puts you in an even or better position midgame, please let me hear it.
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Perhaps it is more of a problem that toss only has one tech tree available to them in PvT than terran not having one available to them in the early game? Idk, that might just be me...
Sure templar tech is "viable" it just isn't as strong as robo early game which is also why mech doesn't work early game, and if your enemy decides to make a push before you get storm and he isn't a retard who mules like a maniac but actually saves up 50 measly energy to scan for DTs, what are you going to do as toss? The forcing of tech goes both ways...
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On April 13 2010 00:41 Ghostcom wrote:
Perhaps it is more of a problem that toss only has one tech tree available to them in PvT than terran not having one available to them in the early game? Idk, that might just be me...
Sure templar tech is "viable" it just isn't as strong as robo early game which is also why mech doesn't work early game, and if your enemy decides to make a push before you get storm and he isn't a retard who mules like a maniac but actually saves up 50 measly energy to scan for DTs, what are you going to do as toss? The forcing of tech goes both ways...
Alright, well assuming that we accept having no mech opening option in TvP, we're still forced to open bio, which means protoss can readily go for colossi and completely wreck us. We're forced into a losing game, which doesn't make sense.
Protoss on the other hand, is forced to go robo. So they go robotics and... win? I don't see how they can complain. It's only forced into robotics because it's a free win vs terran. If robotics wasn't so ludicrously strong, we'd see more twilight or even stargate openings (though tbh stargate sucks).
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I agree... toss is mad tough, especially this patch. I feel sentries might be some of the problem as well, which is why I recently made a post on em. I feel like banshees are the only way to combat a good toss and even that is risky.
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On April 12 2010 23:34 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ... You mean like the Thor denies mutas, how the effing marine denies P air up until the equivalent of BCs? Yeah, good thing the immortal is the only unit in game that makes an entire tech tree unfeaseable against a certain race... And those t1-T1,5 units are the only thing you use right? Because medivacs, ghosts (with an EMP that totally rapes immortals and is very good against all Ps units), vikings and banshees aren't used in PvT at all... So many terrans are neglecting the ghosts undogdeable EMP when they are talking about immortals that it isn't even funny. If you want to "balance" a game, at least have a little bit of perspective and see what the suggested nerfs to the immortal would do to the 2 relevant MUs: 1) Let's make hardend shields researchable: TvP: Sup marauder all-in rush ZvP: sup mass roaches are back in the game (yeah you try holding off all-in roaches with any combination of zeal/sentry/stalker and tell me how that goes) 2) Let's make the immortal into a purely tanking unit: Both MUs: the retards might go "lol hey I'll go shoot on this unit specifically designed to tank which deals 0 damage while his zeals/sentry/stalkers rapes me", but let's face it - most people are in fact in equipped with something called a brain and would target fire the low hp but high dps units first and then proceed to kill the immortals later. Please note that this isn't because I'm against a mech buff, I just don't think that the immortal warrants a nerf only because terrans wants to go mech. If you want to make mech more viable, buff mech. In fact, I'm very much for more tech options, just like I would like to see some air options for toss which doesn't involve heavy cheese and is countered by 200/400 minerals worth of tier 1 units (god I miss D-web). Let the flame about "first post" begin...
Ah, just wanted to add that it is true that Thors counter Mutas. One unit counters another unit, no problem. I'd be a problem if the Thor would be able to kill every flying unit a Z has (including broodlords) because thats what the immortal does to Terrans. Killing Mech. Also think about how long it takes to get a Thor and an Immortal. With CB you can have immortals like INSTANT!
Not gonna talk about P air coz everyone knows that it sucks  although I disagree that a marine counters every Stargate Unit. But it'd be a little bit too much if P would have ground AND air dominance, wouldn't it?
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On April 13 2010 00:45 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 00:41 Ghostcom wrote:
Perhaps it is more of a problem that toss only has one tech tree available to them in PvT than terran not having one available to them in the early game? Idk, that might just be me...
Sure templar tech is "viable" it just isn't as strong as robo early game which is also why mech doesn't work early game, and if your enemy decides to make a push before you get storm and he isn't a retard who mules like a maniac but actually saves up 50 measly energy to scan for DTs, what are you going to do as toss? The forcing of tech goes both ways... Alright, well assuming that we accept having no mech opening option in TvP, we're still forced to open bio, which means protoss can readily go for colossi and completely wreck us. We're forced into a losing game, which doesn't make sense. Protoss on the other hand, is forced to go robo. So they go robotics and... win? I don't see how they can complain. It's only forced into robotics because it's a free win vs terran. If robotics wasn't so ludicrously strong, we'd see more twilight or even stargate openings (though tbh stargate sucks).
If you go twilight how would you stop a push before storm if your enemy is wise enough to bring detection? Protoss don't go robo because they want free win, they, just like terrans go bio, go robo not to lose to an early push.
Oh and EMP somehow makes the entire "losing" game argument pretty void... Just like a protoss needs to storm properly (note storms are actually dodgeable - and no, I wouldn't want it any other way) to win, perhaps it wouldn't be too much to ask for terran having to EMP properly?
And I find it hard to believe that a terran can't get 1-2 vikings out before the protoss get's a collossi, at least the guys I play always seems to get it or very close to when I get my collossi, but I could of course be mistaken.
And unless you do something seriously to the stargate units, you could remove both templar and robo tech, and you still wouldn't see it use vs terran - it is THAT shit outside of cheese situations or carriers (which are in fact, also shit atm, unless fighting BCs and which point they are almost decent and then the drunkard finally finds the IMMA CHARGING MY FIREBALL BUTTON and you look at all the blue smoke thinking "crap, my chances would've been better with mass stalkers with blink" /rant about stargate ended)
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On April 13 2010 00:57 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 23:34 Ghostcom wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ... You mean like the Thor denies mutas, how the effing marine denies P air up until the equivalent of BCs? Yeah, good thing the immortal is the only unit in game that makes an entire tech tree unfeaseable against a certain race... And those t1-T1,5 units are the only thing you use right? Because medivacs, ghosts (with an EMP that totally rapes immortals and is very good against all Ps units), vikings and banshees aren't used in PvT at all... So many terrans are neglecting the ghosts undogdeable EMP when they are talking about immortals that it isn't even funny. If you want to "balance" a game, at least have a little bit of perspective and see what the suggested nerfs to the immortal would do to the 2 relevant MUs: 1) Let's make hardend shields researchable: TvP: Sup marauder all-in rush ZvP: sup mass roaches are back in the game (yeah you try holding off all-in roaches with any combination of zeal/sentry/stalker and tell me how that goes) 2) Let's make the immortal into a purely tanking unit: Both MUs: the retards might go "lol hey I'll go shoot on this unit specifically designed to tank which deals 0 damage while his zeals/sentry/stalkers rapes me", but let's face it - most people are in fact in equipped with something called a brain and would target fire the low hp but high dps units first and then proceed to kill the immortals later. Please note that this isn't because I'm against a mech buff, I just don't think that the immortal warrants a nerf only because terrans wants to go mech. If you want to make mech more viable, buff mech. In fact, I'm very much for more tech options, just like I would like to see some air options for toss which doesn't involve heavy cheese and is countered by 200/400 minerals worth of tier 1 units (god I miss D-web). Let the flame about "first post" begin... Ah, just wanted to add that it is true that Thors counter Mutas. One unit counters another unit, no problem. I'd be a problem if the Thor would be able to kill every flying unit a Z has (including broodlords) because thats what the immortal does to Terrans. Killing Mech. Also think about how long it takes to get a Thor and an Immortal. With CB you can have immortals like INSTANT! Not gonna talk about P air coz everyone knows that it sucks although I disagree that a marine counters every Stargate Unit. But it'd be a little bit too much if P would have ground AND air dominance, wouldn't it?
Which of the phoenix/void ray is it that the marine doesn't counter? (you might want to note that carriers are in fact, the equivalent to BCs )
And the thor has a range of 10, which flying unit is it that it doesn't counter? BL got a range of 9, so get a meatwall to take care of the broodlings coupled with some thors in the background and (while I haven't tested it, games never went to the BL stage) I'm pretty sure you'll see that thors do in fact rape said BL - I know that you don't get the +4 dmg because of the armor type on the BL, but in a tight situation I'm pretty sure thors will still pull out ahead.
Anyway, if you want to argue that the thor is "only" a softcounter to BLs, the same could be said for immortals vs thors using their 250mm canons to oneshot and stun the immortals.
And I'm obviously not asking for ground and air dominance, as you say it would idd be too much, but I would like to be able to do something vs banshee harass when we are both on 3+ bases - stalkers simply just don't cut it, their mobility is simply not enough (or else I suck, which I totally won't rule out as a possibility )
And whilst the CB does indeed speed up the production of immortals, this is hardly relevant in early game as CB are usually being spent on warp-gate, scouts, nexus's (wtf, is the pleuaral form, nexi?) or the robo bay, and later I would much rather build a collossi than an immortal. And tbh, if you think that a unit is OP because toss players can use their macro mechanic on it, I think we are at a point where this discussion is fruitless (I mean, would you also argue that the BL is OP due to the queens ability to puke larvae?)
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Stop talking. You said CB isn't spent on immortals. CB is only spent on immortals. That's the point. You can get 50% more immortals if you CB them, and that's too much for any terran to handle.
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On April 13 2010 01:33 Floophead_III wrote:
Stop talking. You said CB isn't spent on immortals. CB is only spent on immortals. That's the point. You can get 50% more immortals if you CB them, and that's too much for any terran to handle.
The "usually" should've been a mostly - my bad. And I would rather be able to build immortals from 2 bays with the odd chrono + a fully saturated expo, than from one with constant chrono. And perhaps you want to stop massing marauders and actually build a ghost or two - it seems to work out fine...
See, I can also make 1 line retarded points.
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Clearly you watched the replays. I massed a grand total of 0 marauders there.
The more I think about it, the more protoss has an advantage. Even if I turtle up and manage to secure an expo, I'd have to get marines, tanks, siege, ghosts, turrets, and THEN expand with a likely PF at the expo. What keeps protoss from going robo bay into expo, or even double expo. Unless I get lucky and scout it and manage to convert my turtle into an allin instantly, I'm screwed. Not to mention there's no sign of immortals vs just an observer. You HAVE to prepare for immortals AND immortal drops. =/
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If your attitude towards scouting something that early in the game is "luck" I think you might want to reconsider how you scout, seriously. Kulas ravine with an expo at the rocks be might hard to scout (as in you won't see the actual expo - but his BO should tell you a thing or 2), but what other map is it hard to scout an FE on?
And yes, sometimes to scout, you WILL have to use scan instead of mulewhoring.
Anyway, I think the answers you were looking for were all present after page 3 (with replays), so let's stop it here
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I tried the Thor build that imBLIND used yesterday. I managed to BARELY live, then I went Medivacs + Marines + Marauders, massed up, and pushed. He was off one base while I already expoed so I managed to win. I think this build will work.
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Everyone should watch the series cauthonluck played against Orb in the most recent MLG Showcase series cauthon took it 4-0 and used MMM effectively (Good Banshee harassment as well) in just about every game to take the series
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I haven't played a ton of games since the patch, but i've had pretty good success with 1 rax reactor FE + rine pump and 'mass' bunkering my choke. Then adding 2-3 racks and teching to viking+medivac asap to deal with collosi.
Terran is definitely at a disadvantage in this mu, it'll be interesting to see next patch notes.
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On April 13 2010 02:15 Prozen wrote:
I tried the Thor build that imBLIND used yesterday. I managed to BARELY live, then I went Medivacs + Marines + Marauders, massed up, and pushed. He was off one base while I already expoed so I managed to win. I think this build will work.
lol but it still worked!
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Calgary25979 Posts
On April 12 2010 11:25 Zanno wrote:
I saw a game on Chill's stream, in which he went mech knowing full well the opponent would go Immortal, and he almost held the attack off. What I don't understand though, is why he would siege, if all attacks against an Immortal do 10 damage. If he did not siege, his tanks would have had a faster rate of fire, and would have been doing a lot more damage than they were. I didn't see the final hitpoints on the P player's last two immortals, but the fight appeared ridiculously close. Splash damage did not appear to be helping him.
If a player like Chill is siegeing in the face of an ability like that, I can't help but assume that all players are doing so. I could understand him siegeing some of his tanks, to pick off the Sentries faster, but to siege the entire army, didn't make sense to me, unless I really don't understand how the ability works.
I'm not trying to say that there isn't a problem, I'm just trying to say that perhaps not immediately investing in Siege Tech might help to counter the initial immortal push, if siege tech does nothing against them. Keeping your tanks sieged as often as possible has become of a bit of an instinct, but when facing an enemy who takes damage purely on based on the cooldown of the attack, perhaps it is not wise.
I think you can live the first attack and have EMP in time for the second one. The timing is very tight though.
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On April 13 2010 02:56 imBLIND wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 02:15 Prozen wrote:
I tried the Thor build that imBLIND used yesterday. I managed to BARELY live, then I went Medivacs + Marines + Marauders, massed up, and pushed. He was off one base while I already expoed so I managed to win. I think this build will work. lol but it still worked!
But I don't know, I think you can expand safely, but you need EMP to safely push out, because your army count will be low. I won once with it, lost once with it.
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Platinum Protoss player here. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. EMP is the one thing I fear most in games. It is so easy to get and so effective. It may be countered by feedback but there is a significant time between when the ghost gets out and when high templars come.
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Wow.. almost literally nothing changes from the last patch when TvP mean watching Rockit Black Guys roll over protoss in droves, and now the Terran are ready to burst into tears over immortals?
Seriously guys, if the immortal wasn't as power as it is right now, we'd loose to marauder cheese every single game without question. Immos are the only answer we have to marauders at the early-mid game, and as we should be well-aware by now: MARAUDERS ARE STILL MORE EFFICIENT AND WILL STRAIT UP KILL THEM COST FOR COST AFTER STIM.
Soo, you have one tech tree that's "shut down," by immos. Thor might lack mobility, but it out-ranges the immo by 2 with the 250mm, so you cannot say that it's impossible to get off from behind a wall of RBGs. Factory being a stupid idea vs. immo spam is fine. Do you think we get to build any starport units after terrans produce a few vikings? Hell no we don't. We get absolutely creamed by vikings in anything from a phoenix to a mothership.
So, let's not forget in all this QQ, that we're playing essentially the same PvT as last patch, without the cheese marauder open. It wasn't impossible for T then, and it certainly isn't impossible now. If i'm not mistaken QXC defeated a few notable protoss in the same tourney that Huk cleaned his clock.
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On April 13 2010 02:43 sikatrix wrote:
I haven't played a ton of games since the patch, but i've had pretty good success with 1 rax reactor FE + rine pump and 'mass' bunkering my choke. Then adding 2-3 racks and teching to viking+medivac asap to deal with collosi.
Terran is definitely at a disadvantage in this mu, it'll be interesting to see next patch notes.
This is also what I have been doing, except I double rax instead of reactor. I also get a PF up with bunkers. This swings the pressure on toss because he will either try to push your exp and get owned by bunkers & PF, or expand and tech to coloss.
Once my exp is up I tech to banshees, and get turrets up. turrets will own coloss until they get lance upgrade, and harass with banshees so he doesnt get exp secured. Focus fire stalkers go down fast to banshees.
You can also go MMM w/ghosts and drop harass. Don't underestimate the upgrades for building armor, turret/PF range, and bunker capacity.
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funny how all the terrans complain they cant win massing 2 units only.
And always the same "we cant open mech because of immortal" well "we cant open with anything else but immortal because of marauders"....
So basically we got Terra do diverse its army just like protoss has to, now we only need Zerg to do the same and we have a pretty good game.
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Can someone explain why Ghosts are not the answer to immortals? Is it that players complaining aren't even plat level? Because in my games against Plat Terran, they don't have a problem making a couple ghosts to EMP. I really have no idea how a counter to Immortals shields can be any more direct than a spell that completely eliminates them...
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On April 13 2010 03:53 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Wow.. almost literally nothing changes from the last patch when TvP mean watching Rockit Black Guys roll over protoss in droves,
of course this is wrong.
pre-patch 8 Terran won most of their games against protoss with builds that revolved around marauders starting out with slow:
1. 1 rax marauder FE: this worked because marauders w/slow prevented early harass on your FE. Now that marauders don't start with slow, zealots are WAY stronger v terran in the early game; this build dies to aggressive zealot harass, which will run terran over before shells are finished.
2. fast (proxy) reaper -> marauder: this build worked because reapers forced stalkers, which were then countered by marauders, which could be made immediately after 2-3 reapers, and since they started with slow, they beat stalkers very easily. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build is unable to put any follow-up pressure after the reapers. Before shells are researched, Stalkers > Marauders in small numbers.
3. fast (proxy) marauder: this relied on marauders hitting protoss before immortals came out. It worked because marauders w/slow > stalkers or zealots that early in the game. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build doesn't work for the same reason 1 rax marauder FE doesn't work: you get run over by zealots or zealot/sentry before your shells can benefit you.
None of these 3 builds work anymore, because marauders don't start with slow. You don't seem to recognize that it was a BIG change. Terran was hardest hit on build #1, now terran is struggling to find a build that they can FE with. From what I've seen, MoRRoW has the best FE build, with 1 rax marines -> FE -> MASS shield marines + at least 4 bunkers, and pray toss doesn't attack you before your shield upgrade is done. Even then, zealot/sentry just rapes, force field prevents SCVs from repairing bunkers, and guardian shield basically hard-counters marines.
Now I'm not saying immortals need some kind of nerf yet...just want to point out that patch 8 changed TvP A LOT.
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Drop play rapes any bunker based FE with PF. 1 colossus and warpin means all your marines will die. It's not viable unfortunately.
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On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
Completely agree, a single unit locking out an entire building worth of units is pretty ridiculous. The Shields need to be researched for a hefty cost at the Robotics bay and their +damage needs to be reduced to 25+10
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On April 13 2010 04:22 Khadgars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ... Completely agree, a single unit locking out an entire building worth of units is pretty ridiculous. The Shields need to be researched for a hefty cost at the Robotics bay and their +damage needs to be reduced to 25+10
They should NOT get +damage to armored from upgrades, either. I think it's silly that immortals come with hardened shields and sentry come with force field (which breaks the game COMPLETELY used in mass quantities) and guardian shield, but Z and T have to pay for every ability individually with hefty costs and build times.
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div 8 plat terran user here:
imo... generally building 2~3 ghosts early before expansion is a safe start against the immortal push timing...
however protoss robo -> drop transition -> mid-game DT is troublesome
is that what the main gripe is about?
imo 1 rax FE should not be an option for terran, because bioball vikings off 4 gas pretty much shuts down protoss mid-game (now that is an imbalance)
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Hey, Floophead_III made a reasonable OP, presented a problem and posted replays to support his cause.
So why someone of you who disagree doesn't post some replays to counter it? It couldn't be that hard, right? Yet I didn't see any...
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So immortal hardened shields on robo bay anyone?
I'm actually ok with the damage because tanks also hit ridiculously hard from much farther away with splash. I'm just not happy about having to rush ghosts before I can peek out from behind my wall. It'd also make it clear when someone is just going robo for obs/prism. Right now it could be just for obs or also immortals and there's no indication of which. Immortals require a very specific game plan and army composition to fight right now, and if you do that and they go obs for blink stalkers you'll lose, or if they see you turtle and just expo away, you'll lose.
In addition losing hardened shields early will help zerg defend with crawlers better, and roaches/hydra will do slightly better vs immortals.
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Get 5-6 nitro boosted reapers, harass and dont lose them to nothing.
Proceed to make the barrack units that counter his army the best. Win the game, rinse and repeat.
Stalkers heavy? make moar marauders
Immortal heavy? make one or two ghosts along with marauders and marines with extra minerals/barrack time.
Zealots/sentries/stalker/immortal mix? some more reapers, get a good ratio of marauder to reapers and probably a ghost.
All you theorycrafter needs to start playing the game some. That will help.
and oh yea, it has probably been said before but opening mech in a immortal heavy metagame is retarded.
Also 12 rax "economical" builds really blows. Get those reapers out earlier and get that orbital command faster. Dont block your choke if you open reapers.
[url blocked]
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He makes 1 stalker and stops your harass. He makes 2 colossi while expanding for free because reapers can't do anything with stalkers out. You just lost the game.
When players like Louder and Antimage and Mesmerize are saying TvP is broken, it's broken.
You're basically saying cheese reapers and hope that toss screws up which is not a viable way to play this game.
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once again, the ONLY people who disagree are NOT terran players, dont play beta, OR are not high ranked terran players.
no one has yet given any ANSWER as to how we are to handle immortal push. the #1 strat that most ppl will agree with is 2 rax tech lab 1 rax reactor, mm +ghost+stim. we have already discussed the problems with that, and even when perfectly executed and with superior micro, you may break even with the toss.
our only answer currently is to outplay the toss. i like the hellion idea but most of the time i dont get a factory (think 3 rax build) so u wouldnt have hellions anyways. so if u do a less superior build say fighting marines/tank vs toss means u cannot siege. zealots get to your marine line and if you arent constantly microing your siege tanks your marines will get blow up along with the zealots. you cant run cuz ur in siege mode, include forcefields and its a do or die situation. sure we could play without siege but then why the hell would get siege tanks. we wouldnt.
what we are asking is WHAT beats immortal push. what is the HARD counter to it, everything in this game should have a hard counter. answer that. a hard counter should have a advantage over what its countering. imo, terran doesnt have that vs toss immortal push. neither does zerg. therefore the problem is protoss.
and protoss is not even forced to go robo, its just cheaper/requires less teching. toss is still effective with 4 gate or twilight tech/templar tech.
reapers, they are a joke. every decent toss goes stalker first and u can only kill 2-3 probes. you cannot harass toss at all basically due to warp gates. its nearly impossible. any decent toss has observers scouting what your doing, if ur dumb enough to try and go for medivacs ur gonna get steam rolled.
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I agree that there really is no answer to the immortal push. If you pump marauder ghost to defend against it, you screw yourself in the late game. If you go banshees to counter it, you screw yourself in the early game.
I usually just go for the marine/banshee and hope they don't push early.
The real problem here is obvious: Terran has no tier 2 vs toss. It's either tier 1 or tier 3, because the immortal completely eliminates the factory.
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People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP.
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On April 13 2010 00:39 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 00:36 sysrpl wrote:
How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers. How about this, protoss gets a colossus. Seriously, do you even think through what you post before you post it? If anyone has a standard, noncheese opening which puts you in an even or better position midgame, please let me hear it.
I think this post highlights the exact problem in this thread^^;. I don't think anyone's arguing that an immortal push is unstoppable by the terran. Or at least I hope nobody is, because it's seriously not that hard to stop.
But when I hear stuff like "I can't go marines because toss will get colossus!" or "a zealot/sentry/immortal midgame ball will kill marauders"! all I can say is "right...and?".
If the protoss tech switches on you or starts to mix up units to specifically counter what the terran has, then why on earth SHOULDN'T that be effective? This stuff is working as intended!
If he techs to colossus you can tech to viking. or heck you can actually try siege tanks now since you have a sizeable marine army in that above scenario. Or you can switch to heavy marauder/ghost since he stopped immortal production. And marauder/ghost/medivac also completely rolls over a zealot/sentry/immortal ball unless you can't figure out how to EMP sentries and immortals. and EMP'ed sentry is an expensive paperweight against mgm.
Seriously^^; First it's "we can't fight off immortaaals", then people tell you to try unit comps and you come back with "but if he builds something else, our army can't fight thaaaat". It's a strategy game... start using strategy. I hear scouting helps with decision making
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Thors don't spawn with the ability and that thor is not going to be out in time for that push i don't think. I will try it later though and if it's successful I'll post replays. Another big issue with the thor is mobility. Defending drops with that thing is a nightmare, so you'd really have to play amazing vs drops.
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On April 13 2010 05:15 Prozen wrote:
People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP.
A smart toss wouldn't push out versus a quick thor...
and you can't push out with 2-3 thors though, you will need much more as toss will be getting sentry/zeal/stalker/immortals en masse, and you'll be sacrificing map control as you have no mobility.
so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Grats, you still lose. Granted, only Gretorp has gone thor against me and done decently, but the answer can't be to just blindly rush thor every game.
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On April 13 2010 05:22 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:15 Prozen wrote:
People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP. A smart toss wouldn't push out versus a quick thor... and you can't push out with 2-3 thors though, you will need much more as toss will be getting sentry/zeal/stalker/immortals en masse, and you'll be sacrificing map control as you have no mobility. so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Grats, you still lose. Granted, only Gretorp has gone thor against me and done decently, but the answer can't be to just blindly rush thor every game.
Hey get your butt on bnet/vent and lets try some freaking thor builds lol
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On April 13 2010 05:25 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:22 Antimage wrote:On April 13 2010 05:15 Prozen wrote:
People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP. A smart toss wouldn't push out versus a quick thor... and you can't push out with 2-3 thors though, you will need much more as toss will be getting sentry/zeal/stalker/immortals en masse, and you'll be sacrificing map control as you have no mobility. so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Grats, you still lose. Granted, only Gretorp has gone thor against me and done decently, but the answer can't be to just blindly rush thor every game. Hey get your butt on bnet/vent and lets try some freaking thor builds lol
I am at work ^^
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so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Uh. Do you have any reps showing this? I'd love to see how a one base timing push which is repelled outmacros a defensive expansion.
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On April 13 2010 05:19 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 00:39 Floophead_III wrote:On April 13 2010 00:36 sysrpl wrote:
How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers. How about this, protoss gets a colossus. Seriously, do you even think through what you post before you post it? If anyone has a standard, noncheese opening which puts you in an even or better position midgame, please let me hear it. I think this post highlights the exact problem in this thread^^;. I don't think anyone's arguing that an immortal push is unstoppable by the terran. Or at least I hope nobody is, because it's seriously not that hard to stop. But when I hear stuff like "I can't go marines because toss will get colossus!" or "a zealot/sentry/immortal midgame ball will kill marauders"! all I can say is "right...and?". If the protoss tech switches on you or starts to mix up units to specifically counter what the terran has, then why on earth SHOULDN'T that be effective? This stuff is working as intended! If he techs to colossus you can tech to viking. or heck you can actually try siege tanks now since you have a sizeable marine army in that above scenario. Or you can switch to heavy marauder/ghost since he stopped immortal production. And marauder/ghost/medivac also completely rolls over a zealot/sentry/immortal ball unless you can't figure out how to EMP sentries and immortals. and EMP'ed sentry is an expensive paperweight against mgm. Seriously^^; First it's "we can't fight off immortaaals", then people tell you to try unit comps and you come back with "but if he builds something else, our army can't fight thaaaat". It's a strategy game... start using strategy. I hear scouting helps with decision making
Because, Feefee, tech switches are not cheap for terran. If we go marauder ghost to counter an early immortal push, we are committed to marauder ghost for a while because it's gas heavy. We can't easily switch to vikings. We have to build a factory and a starport. Now if we go marines early we can get to vikings by the time you have colossi, but then we die to an early immortal push.
Our buildings also require addons. I can't just switch midgame from marauders // ghosts to marines because I'll need reactors to produce a sizeable amount of marines.
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On April 13 2010 05:26 L wrote:Show nested quote +so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Uh. Do you have any reps showing this? I'd love to see how a one base timing push which is repelled outmacros a defensive expansion.
the only way for terr to expo is defensively. a one base timing push can easily transition into out expanding a turtle terran. we've already agreed that fast expanding isnt really an option anymore.
i just want to see some tourny games from luci/demuslim fighting off an immortal push.
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dApollo says tvp is broken!
The thor build that demuslim used vs whitera, even though in lag, looked horrible? Game on Stepples, white-ra just got his natural and got like 7-8immortals out theres no way that demuslims 3-4thors were gunna do anything vs that...
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On April 13 2010 05:26 L wrote:Show nested quote +so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Uh. Do you have any reps showing this? I'd love to see how a one base timing push which is repelled outmacros a defensive expansion.
I don't dedicate myself to a one base timing push. I use the advantage of the immortal rush to gain map control, and (hopefully) do sufficient damage - like I said in one of my above posts.
I would see the thor, and just not engage the terran player. Since he teched up quickly and sac'ed some economy, I pull ahead, get a 2nd robo and get stalkers/zealots/sentries/immortals, while getting my 1st and 2nd expo (while he's stuck defending his one b/c of lack of mobility).
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On April 13 2010 05:28 PhiliBiRD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:26 L wrote:so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Uh. Do you have any reps showing this? I'd love to see how a one base timing push which is repelled outmacros a defensive expansion. the only way for terr to expo is defensively. a one base timing push can easily transition into out expanding a turtle terran. we've already agreed that fast expanding isnt really an option anymore. i just want to see some tourny games from luci/demuslim fighting off an immortal push.
demuslim vs whitera - this evenings tournament final
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On April 13 2010 03:53 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Wow.. almost literally nothing changes from the last patch when TvP mean watching Rockit Black Guys roll over protoss in droves, and now the Terran are ready to burst into tears over immortals?
Seriously guys, if the immortal wasn't as power as it is right now, we'd loose to marauder cheese every single game without question. Immos are the only answer we have to marauders at the early-mid game, and as we should be well-aware by now: MARAUDERS ARE STILL MORE EFFICIENT AND WILL STRAIT UP KILL THEM COST FOR COST AFTER STIM.
Soo, you have one tech tree that's "shut down," by immos. Thor might lack mobility, but it out-ranges the immo by 2 with the 250mm, so you cannot say that it's impossible to get off from behind a wall of RBGs. Factory being a stupid idea vs. immo spam is fine. Do you think we get to build any starport units after terrans produce a few vikings? Hell no we don't. We get absolutely creamed by vikings in anything from a phoenix to a mothership.
So, let's not forget in all this QQ, that we're playing essentially the same PvT as last patch, without the cheese marauder open. It wasn't impossible for T then, and it certainly isn't impossible now. If i'm not mistaken QXC defeated a few notable protoss in the same tourney that Huk cleaned his clock.
Uh, this makes no sense whatsoever. First you say that you absolutly need immortals to fend of marauder cheese. This means that immortals are good vs marauder, right? But than you admit, that immortals also shut down mech tree. So lets think about it some more:
Immortals kill
*Marauder
*Hellions
*Tanks
*Thor
Is it me or is there not much left (besides air) that is not covered by the immortal? And everything that is left (Marines, Ghosts [and Banshees, lol]) is heavily counterd by Sentrys, Stalker, Zealots, HTs and Colossi). And you even point out that Marauders kill Immortals cost for cost, hum ... please imagine now for a second that Immortals would demolish Marauders even more than right now. What the hell is T supposed to build than? BCs?
Please dont even try to compare Thor and Immortal since Thor loses in every single category but GtA. By the time a Terran has 2 Thors P is at 4 Immortals. And by the time you actually arrive at P's Base he has about 5 Immortals. And even than you most likely are going to bite the dust.
The main problem with immortals is that they have no drawback even when counterd WHILE being usful against 2/3 of the possible T army compositions.
Storm shines against Bio but is "useless" if EMPed or sniped by hellions or used against mech and it obviously is hard to get.
Colossi are good against Bio but is "useless" against Mech and is easily counterd by vikings and also requires some tech.
Immortals on the other hand are good against Tanks, Thors, Hellions, Marauder and to some extent even Marines (dealing 20 damage is not bad at any means), which is pretty much everything a terran has in his arsenal. They also require low tech and have only one hard counter (ghost) which is than easily countered by everything else protoss has.
The question that still remains is what exact role the immortal has in a PvT. If the immortal is there to shut down heavy mech, than it should require much more tech and it should be very easy countered by anything that is not mech.
There is no need for an immortal in it's current state as an allround unit with little to no drawbacks. Or if there is a need than something else needs to be done to reduce the advantage that the immortal provides in this matchup.
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Thors DO come with the ability, it's just a matter of energy. You have to try the build out instead of theorycrafting man. The point is NOT to push out with the Thors, but to use them to defend your expansion. Your expansion will be up faster than the Protoss's and then you proceed to get Marines + Marauders + Medivacs + Ghosts. I come out with 3 Thors by the time they push out with 2-3 Immortals, Zealots + Sentries. Granted, you scout to see whether they go for the Warp Prism or Immortals to support their push.
Edit: Btw, if the Protoss takes 2 more expansions than the Terran, I'll just push out when I have EMP + Medivacs + Marines + Marauders and crush his army. It's not as if you keep building Thors to be part of your army composition.
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I cant believe how many Terrans completely ignore the strength of EMP and how Immortals get completely crushed when the shields are just gone. Even the Theorycrafters should see that, ones the shield is gone, Immortals have not much HP to offer O_o-
Of course ghosts gets countered by Collosus, zeals etc pp. In that stage of the game it's a LOT about scouting, positioning and micro.
If you catch the P off guard you can EMP his key units and he will just die or has to retreat for at least one minute.
On the other hand if T is catched off guard, P can FF well and might Feedback the ghost or place some nice storms.
Conclusion: this has nothing to do with balance issue.
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One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now.
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On April 13 2010 05:43 GoDannY wrote:
I cant believe how many Terrans completely ignore the strength of EMP and how Immortals get completely crushed when the shields are just gone. Even the Theorycrafters should see that, ones the shield is gone, Immortals have not much HP to offer O_o-
Of course ghosts gets countered by Collosus, zeals etc pp. In that stage of the game it's a LOT about scouting, positioning and micro.
If you catch the P off guard you can EMP his key units and he will just die or has to retreat for at least one minute.
On the other hand if T is catched off guard, P can FF well and might Feedback the ghost or place some nice storms.
Conclusion: this has nothing to do with balance issue.
Two words: Guardian Shield.
Even if you EMP the Immortals and target them with your Marauders/Marines, Guardian Shield still makes it hard to kill the Immortals quickly enough so you can deal with the Zealots/Stalkers. Meanwhile, the Zealots/Stalkers are still attacking your Marines/Marauders while you're busy trying to take the Immortals out.
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On April 13 2010 05:43 GoDannY wrote:
I cant believe how many Terrans completely ignore the strength of EMP and how Immortals get completely crushed when the shields are just gone. Even the Theorycrafters should see that, ones the shield is gone, Immortals have not much HP to offer O_o-
i cant believe how you ignored most of the posts in this thread. we are FAR from ignoring the strength of EMP. i use ghosts every TvP because without them i feel ridiculously gimpep. we ARE using EMP in our builds, if you arent your not playing TvP properly. your being really ignorant in your post.
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just theorycrafting (unless a protoss player would like to test with me) but if going very early eng +1 infantry weap + early stim instead of ghosts helps at all with anything...
i'm SeaL.arfarf on sc2 beta
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On April 13 2010 05:28 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:19 Feefee wrote:On April 13 2010 00:39 Floophead_III wrote:On April 13 2010 00:36 sysrpl wrote:
How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers. How about this, protoss gets a colossus. Seriously, do you even think through what you post before you post it? If anyone has a standard, noncheese opening which puts you in an even or better position midgame, please let me hear it. I think this post highlights the exact problem in this thread^^;. I don't think anyone's arguing that an immortal push is unstoppable by the terran. Or at least I hope nobody is, because it's seriously not that hard to stop. But when I hear stuff like "I can't go marines because toss will get colossus!" or "a zealot/sentry/immortal midgame ball will kill marauders"! all I can say is "right...and?". If the protoss tech switches on you or starts to mix up units to specifically counter what the terran has, then why on earth SHOULDN'T that be effective? This stuff is working as intended! If he techs to colossus you can tech to viking. or heck you can actually try siege tanks now since you have a sizeable marine army in that above scenario. Or you can switch to heavy marauder/ghost since he stopped immortal production. And marauder/ghost/medivac also completely rolls over a zealot/sentry/immortal ball unless you can't figure out how to EMP sentries and immortals. and EMP'ed sentry is an expensive paperweight against mgm. Seriously^^; First it's "we can't fight off immortaaals", then people tell you to try unit comps and you come back with "but if he builds something else, our army can't fight thaaaat". It's a strategy game... start using strategy. I hear scouting helps with decision making Because, Feefee, tech switches are not cheap for terran. If we go marauder ghost to counter an early immortal push, we are committed to marauder ghost for a while because it's gas heavy. We can't easily switch to vikings. We have to build a factory and a starport. Now if we go marines early we can get to vikings by the time you have colossi, but then we die to an early immortal push. Our buildings also require addons. I can't just switch midgame from marauders // ghosts to marines because I'll need reactors to produce a sizeable amount of marines.
Oh don't give me that =P. You're perfectly right on all those points but "we need extra buildings/addons to tech switch" is... obvious? Toss needs extra tech too to switch to colossus, and they're only good with the lance upgrade which takes foreeever to get. Assuming you engaged the terran army at all before your "tech switch" to starport it's hardly an investment. One medivac will heal your previously stimmed, now in yellow health army back to full. I mean, I started playing terran, switched to random, and then to protoss, I understand the terran tech tree. But I also understand the protoss tech tree which I think some people here don't.
How is going 2 rax + ghost acadamy a build that "puts you behind" like so many people keep saying? And yes, that does stop an immortal push.
I just want this thread to devolve out of the generic "SEE THOSE REPLAYS!? IRREFUTABLE PROOF! NERF IMMORTAL!" and back into a discussion, where smart people actually try out some of the things suggested. People see a header like "Immortal's OP" and the entiiiire thread just becomes "OMG YES! WE ALL AGREE!". Those replays show a siege tank fast expand build against immortals.. BIG SURPRISE that didn't work well. Just play the game.. play it against an opponent that's at your skill level (cause quite frankly in those replays the toss was a better player than the terran by looking at the micro of each), and if you seriously can't beat an immortal push or its followup after trying all the different things suggested, then fine, I'll let people make a "immortals seem unbeatable" thread.
As it stands right now every time someone points out that your strategies are just horrible, or suggests something for you to try/follow it up with, this thread replies with "You're stupid. Can't be done. It'll set us behind. He'll kill me with unit b."
Post a few replays (again against an opponent of equal skill) demonstrating how, after going 2 rax ghost, or even 3 rax ghost against immortals makes it impossible to win the game afterwards and I'll concede that at least that strategy isn't viable. Right now this thread is just a bunch of terrans agreeing with each other that they hate the immortal. I can make a thread where all the protoss agree with each other that the marauder is OP, I guarantee you it'll be just as insightful as this one.
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On April 13 2010 05:49 Feefee wrote:
after going 2 rax ghost, or even 3 rax ghost against immortals makes it impossible to win the game afterwards and I'll concede that at least that strategy isn't viable. Right now this thread is just a bunch of terrans agreeing with each other that they hate the immortal. I can make a thread where all the protoss agree with each other that the marauder is OP, I guarantee you it'll be just as insightful as this one.
I just explained why 2-3 rax ghost puts you at a big disadvantage. There is absolutely nothing terran can do to stop the Toss from getting an earlier expansion than the Terran. It takes a very long time to get all the key upgrades and ghosts to even think of a push. And you will be pushing completely blind since Terran doesn't have observers.
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not sure what but something must be changed
bio isnt a viable option late game vs toss and mech was never good because immortal counters it too hard
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Look, one stalker doesnt "counter" early reapers. It makes harass more difficult but its far from countering. if you stopped making reapers because theres a stalker. I dont know what to tell you except look at the big picture. He cant get out of his base because of reapers. Whenever you get nitro boost, you can outmaneuver stalkers easily and if he decide to split, well 6 reapers kills a stalker in 3-4 volley. Most importantly, you're NEVER in the dark. You have all the information you need to counter his army. When to push and what not.
Also do not block your choke with buildings, its a death trap. You're begging to lose games due to force fields. If you have a decent reaper opening you have nothing to worry about early game coming from the protoss.
Whenever he pushes out, invite him to your comfy command center. Your scv's and decent base layout will give them a warm welcome.
You have reapers, which is one of the best unit in the game(efficiency/cost), use them for fucks sake.
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On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now.
1. They already nerfed observers. They cost 50/100. All you have to do to stop them is to build 100 min turrets. Ezpz. Dont' just place turrets on the outside of your base. A few at your min line or maybe choke will almost always catch the obs.
2. You have scan. The best form of scouting in the game. Yes, it cost you 250+ minerals. But information > 250 minerals almost always. If you really don't want to waste a scan or MULE energy, scout with an SCV or reaper. Theyr'e cheap and you can just make them hang around the Toss's natural so you have a better idea of when they're expanding.
3. Don't complain about proxy tech. Terran can proxy tech pretty damn well themselves. Proxy starport cloaked banshees. During this whole time, I was prepping for MMM push. GG, I lose.
Immortals+Sentries FF is toss's only answer to biomech. Nerf one of them and toss will just absolutely die to MMM or biomech.
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Reapers are completely freaking worthless and anyone who is relying on them is relying on their opponent to be bad. I can't say it enough.
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On April 13 2010 05:19 Floophead_III wrote:
Thors don't spawn with the ability and that thor is not going to be out in time for that push i don't think. I will try it later though and if it's successful I'll post replays. Another big issue with the thor is mobility. Defending drops with that thing is a nightmare, so you'd really have to play amazing vs drops.
Getting 1 thor, if not 2, is very feasible before the toss comes knocking on your door. It takes 120 seconds for 2 thors to be built disregarding the fac/armory build times, and it takes an equal amount of time for toss to get 3 immortals. Even with chrono, he can't get a 4th immortal in before you get a 3rd thor b/c of the travel distances.
As previously mentioned, thors come with the ability it just takes 100 energy for it to be used.
I agree drops are quite painful, but i sacrifice money for a sentry tower and place a thor in between my natural and my main. Still refining this build at the moment.
Also, if he masses anything else besides immortals, you switch to tanks and focus fire on everything that isnt an immortal. I find that having 2factories and anticipating/scouting the switch helps a lot. If you use 250mm on an immortal, it prevents it from retreating and attacking, which i find pretty nifty cause most tosses just retreat and keep pressuring once their shields go back up.
On April 13 2010 05:22 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:15 Prozen wrote:
People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP. A smart toss wouldn't push out versus a quick thor... and you can't push out with 2-3 thors though, you will need much more as toss will be getting sentry/zeal/stalker/immortals en masse, and you'll be sacrificing map control as you have no mobility. so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Grats, you still lose. Granted, only Gretorp has gone thor against me and done decently, but the answer can't be to just blindly rush thor every game.
Its not thor pushing, it's using the thor to defend. If you thor push, the toss can probably build 2 immortals in the time it takes to get the thor to the toss. Obvious fail there.
I do agree the map control thing is an issue, but that has always been an issue for terran in the past. I've been experimenting with various methods to try and prevent the toss from retaining total map control, and the easiest one is to get a medivac and to thor harass. It's not exactly ideal for harassing, but it's better than nothing.
If he does overexpand, you can grab 3 thors (use medivacs) and use the 250mm to snipe the mexus. 1 more shot after 3 250mms will kill the nex.
Another method that is quite efficient is 10 hellion harass. It's really really good vs tosses that like to mass sentry/zeal, but not so hot vs stalker/immortals. A huge con of this build is that it takes a while to set up, but having 2 reactors prebuilt for factories helps.
A couple other methods that come to mind are reaper harass and banshee harass, but i don't think either of them will be very effective.
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On April 13 2010 06:17 Floophead_III wrote:
Reapers are completely freaking worthless and anyone who is relying on them is relying on their opponent to be bad. I can't say it enough.
How about I play your protoss and prove you wrong?
well except proving that you're horrible. I just want to put you into a game setting where reapers own your face. Then we'll talk about how bad they are( and how bad you are from your analogy)
Fallenfrog.spl
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On April 13 2010 05:58 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:49 Feefee wrote:
after going 2 rax ghost, or even 3 rax ghost against immortals makes it impossible to win the game afterwards and I'll concede that at least that strategy isn't viable. Right now this thread is just a bunch of terrans agreeing with each other that they hate the immortal. I can make a thread where all the protoss agree with each other that the marauder is OP, I guarantee you it'll be just as insightful as this one.
I just explained why 2-3 rax ghost puts you at a big disadvantage. There is absolutely nothing terran can do to stop the Toss from getting an earlier expansion than the Terran. It takes a very long time to get all the key upgrades and ghosts to even think of a push. And you will be pushing completely blind since Terran doesn't have observers.
And I just explained how that's completely irrelevant.. I can't get a faster expansion that zerg either. I don't have MULE's either, so my 2 bases will be saturated while you can MULE it up. Getting an expansion slightly later than a terran doesn't equal "I'm so behind I'm gonna lose the game". Show me a replay of you being unable to follow up a 2 rax ghost build... I have never lost to a protoss going immortals with 2 rax ghost (including an expansion). If he dares to expand off of immortals while you're 2-3 rax ghost then just kill his expo and expand after that. You seriously have SO many options.
I really feel like you're just refusing to try. It doesn't take a "very long time" to get stimpack, and you don't need concussion grenades that early. But more importantly "You will be pushing completely blind since Terran doesn't have observers"? Send a freaking SCV over to scout^^; Learn protoss timings. If they have even a single immortal you can rule out void rays and colossus. In fact, you can rule out colossus entirely. Do you never scan a tosss's base?
Terran may be many things, but blind they are absolutely not.. And don't start on the "if I scan I'll be so far behind cause I didn't mule", that's bull
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On April 13 2010 06:09 Fallen wrote:
You have reapers, which is one of the best unit in the game(efficiency/cost), use them for fucks sake.
Toss just need to guard the mineral lines with 1 or 2 stalkers and push with immortals. 6 reapers will own a stalker you say? Sure, but by the time reapers kill 1 stalker he will have 2 more ready from warpgates. You see the problem here right?
IMO the problem with immortals are not because of their hardened shield but with their ridiculous damage of 50 to armored units. This leaves absolutely no room for Terran to micro his tanks because they get killed with only 3 shots. Once toss gets 3 immortals 1 tank gets wiped out every second it's not even funny. I think their damage should be 20 fixed, and maybe allow +30 armored bonus damage as an upgrade from Robotics Bay. The upgrade should be costly and long enough so toss has a choice of going for Colossus range upgrade first or Immortal's damage upgrade first.
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Immortals 4 shot tanks due to armor. +1 weapons makes them kill a tank in 3 hits no matter what. Regardless, it's ridiculous.
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On April 13 2010 06:13 Ryuu314 wrote:
1. They already nerfed observers. They cost 50/100. All you have to do to stop them is to build 100 min turrets. Ezpz. Dont' just place turrets on the outside of your base. A few at your min line or maybe choke will almost always catch the obs.
2. You have scan. The best form of scouting in the game. Yes, it cost you 250+ minerals. But information > 250 minerals almost always. If you really don't want to waste a scan or MULE energy, scout with an SCV or reaper. Theyr'e cheap and you can just make them hang around the Toss's natural so you have a better idea of when they're expanding.
3. Don't complain about proxy tech. Terran can proxy tech pretty damn well themselves. Proxy starport cloaked banshees. During this whole time, I was prepping for MMM push. GG, I lose.
Immortals+Sentries FF is toss's only answer to biomech. Nerf one of them and toss will just absolutely die to MMM or biomech.
1. Turrets? Are you serious? I am going to put 3-4 turrets (because that's how many it'd take to remotely cover a normal base just to prevent 1 observer from seeing my tech? Even with turrets, it does not prevent observers from scouting my army composition or whether I am expanding. Turrets don't cover much area.
2. Yes, I have scan. 270 minerals for 3 seconds of scouting. That's 2.5 marines away from the cost of a new command center. You have observers for 50/100 for infinite scouting and detection as well.
You say I should use scan, and every other Toss player is telling me that MULES offset the probe to scv number advantage and earlier expansion advantage. You see the problem here? I can't do both.
Nerf OBSERVERS or as an alternative, make scans cost 25 energy. I can probably deal with sentries and immortals if I actually knew what the F the Toss is doing.
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Still looking for replays of someone going 2 rax into thor. DeMuslim/White-Ra had lag issues and frankly none of the games were good.
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Observers are fine. I can hold immortal pushes. I can't get an advantage over a protoss who does them. If it's badly executed I might come out on top but vs a player of equal/better skill level there's just no way to turn it into a winning game.
I usually use one scan if my scout scv doesn't get enough info. From that I can figure out if he's going mass warpgate or has a robo, but I can't tell if it's drops, immortal push, or just obs into expo. I do feel like terran has issues resolving protoss builds, but that's nothing to do with the observer.
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Make scan 25 energy. They weren't overpowered in sc1 at 25.
Now both Toss and zerg have cheaper/better forms of scouting. In sc1 PvT, Toss to make a robo then observator exclusively for observers. They rarely built any other robo units. That was a huge tech sidestep, but still worth it.
Zerg overlord speed upgrade is now cheaper and they now have the other cheap option of changlings.
Both P and Z gets better scouting, but T gets far far worse scouting.
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On April 13 2010 06:43 link0 wrote:
Make scan 25 energy. They weren't overpowered in sc1 at 25.
lol
Scouting isn't the issue. It's managing to be able to hold off the immortal push and get an expo or holding a FE vs the immortal push.
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On April 13 2010 05:47 AncienTs wrote:
just theorycrafting (unless a protoss player would like to test with me) but if going very early eng +1 infantry weap + early stim instead of ghosts helps at all with anything...
i'm SeaL.arfarf on sc2 beta
I actually tried this and it worked successfully. I was on a 6 game losing streak against P(kept going for early tank pushes that just got steamrolled) when I decided during a specific TvP on Steppes of War to go heavy marines with banshee support.
I'm in gold league and I can't really say how proficient my P opponent was but they were slightly favored so I'm assuming high gold/low plat? Not sure.
My army composition was about 4-5 marines to one marauder. I also got both gas at around 15 food and I actually got ghosts later than I should have. I got a lucky scan off that revealed a robobay just warping in which was a counter to my marine mass that he found with his observer.
I attacked at 10 minutes with 18 marines, 4 marauders, stim, +1 weapon upgrade, and a ghost that just got emp while on the walk to his base. I wanted to attack before the collosi showed up. While on my way I wanted to try banshee support so I began building 2 starports.
He had a warp prism, 5 zealots, 3 immortals, 2 stalkers, and 3 sentries defending his expansion at the natural. I emp'd 2 immortals, zealot, and a stalker because I think I surprised him. I could've micro'd a bit better but I won the battle with 6 marines, 2 marauders, and a ghost to spare, with reinforcements on the way. From there I just took out all his pylons.
I tried something new this time around too. My first barracks I made a tech lab after about 2 marines. At about 20-22 food I made 2 more barracks but instead of immediately making reactors on both for my mass marine army I decided to just make marines flat out from them. I did this for two reasons.
1)A reactor takes 50 seconds to make. You can have 2 marines by the time a reactor finishes.
2)You can't produce a unit from a building developing an attachment. This kicks in to your early game productivity. It isn't until a good minute after making the reactor core attachment that the productivity will get ahead of a single barracks with no attachment. I feel this is bad for early game.
You have mules that bring in a large load of minerals. An early marine attack build might benefit more from just making more barracks rather than not being able to continually produce marines for 50 seconds. I would really like the opportunity to test the idea and see if reactors actually cuts in to early game productivity or its just mental but unfortunately I'm not the best at theorycrafting.
When I accidentally became supply blocked at around 45 or so food I added the reactor cores.
I couldn't really test the banshee support because I only had about 2 banshees as part of my reinforcements. My build is not fined tuned either, for example, with better build time refinements an earlier attack could be made or medivacs could be mixed in.
I always try to win my TvPs in under 15 minutes. If I don't I almost always lose to P from experience.
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On April 13 2010 06:43 link0 wrote:
Make scan 25 energy. They weren't overpowered in sc1 at 25.
Now both Toss and zerg have cheaper/better forms of scouting. In sc1 PvT, Toss to make a robo then observator exclusively for observers. They rarely built any other robo units. That was a huge tech sidestep, but still worth it.
Zerg overlord speed upgrade is now cheaper and they now have the other cheap option of changlings.
Both P and Z gets better scouting, but T gets far far worse scouting.
I think this is just one of many factors which make T hard to play (vs toss). Toss can chrono boost his army production, tech research and probe production => better income. Terran needs to choose carefuly betwen mule and scan.
There si also the map factor. No matter what tactic u use, bio or mech, toss can always split ur army which ,combined with narrow chokes, is devastating for T (and for Z too).
Toss has fantastic spellcasters, sentry and HT. Both very useful (and used) vs T and Z. Yeah, T has the gost which is usefull vs toss for his EMP (nuke, maybe) but vs Z its not used at all. Raven? huh...watched a lot of replays and its hardly used.
I've been trying mech lately and its hard to play (very hard on smaller maps). I would like some more unit and strategy diversity with T. Right now i have the feeling that T is always searching for the holy grail tactic.
hf
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On April 13 2010 07:00 Niteo wrote:
I always try to win my TvPs in under 15 minutes. If I don't I almost always lose to P from experience.
That's a pretty bad dynamic :/
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heres a replay vs a top 10 plat toss( since floophead told me he wouldnt waste time playing me).
He surprised me going for a quick attack without immortals but I still survived that without much loss.
You can note in the few battles how sentries and zealot pretty much evaporated at the start of the fights.
I had him on the defensive for a big part of the game -- my macro slipped at a point but the game was pretty much over.
We're gonna play some more games later tonight and i'll post all of them in this thread -- win or loss.
[url blocked]
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On April 13 2010 06:28 L wrote:
Still looking for replays of someone going 2 rax into thor. DeMuslim/White-Ra had lag issues and frankly none of the games were good.
Okay, I just tried this. Does not seem to be viable at all. You are forced to camp in your base all day long. Moving out means you are open to drops and Thors need years to walk. Problems that occured with this build:
a) Supply heavy. 1 Thor (6 Sup) + 2 Marauder (2x2 Sup) = 1 Depot. This is freaking huge because 1 cycle of only 3 units = 1 Depot. You need to build supply depots nonstop to not get supply blocked which means you in the end fall behind. Constant WBF production not even included.
b) Immobility. You can never push out. Moving out means you are open to drops and counterattacks.It's impossible to ever get mapcontrol.
c) Thor vs Immortal is a waste of money. Once a Obs is in your base you are on a run that you never will catch up. Heavy costs + much longer build time + more supply means that P has twice as much Immortals than you can have Thors.
d) Fucked up timing. There is basicly no timing window where you can make use of your thors. You can't push out with few Thors + Marauders because Thors start with 50 Energy (lol ...). I looked it up, a Thor needs exactly 1 min and 30 sec to make use of his 250 mm after he popped up. In the same time a P can produce 3 (!) chrono boosted Immortals.
e) camping is not an option. You might think that sitting in your base or expanding after a few thors might be an option ... it's not. a) + c) + d) means that you are always behind in supply and P can just push you whenever he likes.
tldr version: No mapcontrol, heavy cost and supply problems, open to drops and counter attacks, low energy (= no 250 mm) and being outmacroed easily makes this not viable at all.
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On April 13 2010 07:56 Fallen wrote:
heres a replay vs a top 10 plat toss( since floophead told me he wouldnt waste time playing me).
He surprised me going for a quick attack without immortals but I still survived that without much loss.
You can note in the few battles how sentries and zealot pretty much evaporated at the start of the fights.
I had him on the defensive for a big part of the game -- my macro slipped at a point but the game was pretty much over.
We're gonna play some more games later tonight and i'll post all of them in this thread -- win or loss.
[url blocked]
Since I do feel that I at least owe an objective look I'm watching the replay now. I will edit my response here after I'm done.
I didn't even watch the full game because that protoss was pretty bad. His attack should haev killed you but he spent time shooting at a bunker he could've walked by, never used a force field, and let his zealots die because of bad control.
He also didn't spread his stalkers at all after seeing like 6 reapers kill his probe. That player was really really stupid and the game proves very little other than you can beat bad people with it. A good player will know what's up and go straight to colossus off 1 gate and kill you. Good luck killing colossus/stalker with anything out of the barracks.
If you can find a really convincing game where protoss doesn't make any massive errors then plz post away. Until then I hold my assumption that that build is garbage.
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I'll PvT and do this immortal build if some good plat terrans want to try to fight against it
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mezmerize if u wanna add me we can try some things out im rank 5 plat terran div 18.1700+ pts
philibird.hed
that goes for any1 if u want to practice TvP strats/or anything rele
also note brat.ok did a new TvP strat in zotac #7, marauder/marine with fast raven/medivac. ghost around 50 food. ravens nullifies observers and point defense drone is a good counter to stalkers not sure if it works against immortal. worked vs a player named chobo but im not familiar with him. its really hard to know if different strats actually work or if the players who they work against are messing up.
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There's no such thing as a really convincing game. I don't think there's ever been an occasion in the history of internet-arguments where someone goes "See! Here's proof!" that the other guy looked at it and was convinced of anything. People always have a preconceived notion and see what they want to see when they look at these things, picking at whatever little details they can spot to invalidate the argument.
You won't know that any discussion about anything here is any good until you try something out for yourself and do your best to modify it and make it work.
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On April 13 2010 09:26 Bibdy wrote:
There's no such thing as a really convincing game. I don't think there's ever been an occasion in the history of internet-arguments where someone goes "See! Here's proof!" that the other guy looked at it and was convinced of anything. People always have a preconceived notion and see what they want to see when they look at these things, picking at whatever little details they can spot to invalidate the argument.
You won't know that any discussion about anything here is any good until you try something out for yourself and do your best to modify it and make it work.
Dude, you speak so much truth... now get the hell out of the strategy forum!
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On April 13 2010 08:45 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 06:28 L wrote:
Still looking for replays of someone going 2 rax into thor. DeMuslim/White-Ra had lag issues and frankly none of the games were good. Okay, I just tried this. Does not seem to be viable at all. You are forced to camp in your base all day long. Moving out means you are open to drops and Thors need years to walk. Problems that occured with this build: a) Supply heavy. 1 Thor (6 Sup) + 2 Marauder (2x2 Sup) = 1 Depot. This is freaking huge because 1 cycle of only 3 units = 1 Depot. You need to build supply depots nonstop to not get supply blocked which means you in the end fall behind. Constant WBF production not even included. b) Immobility. You can never push out. Moving out means you are open to drops and counterattacks.It's impossible to ever get mapcontrol. c) Thor vs Immortal is a waste of money. Once a Obs is in your base you are on a run that you never will catch up. Heavy costs + much longer build time + more supply means that P has twice as much Immortals than you can have Thors. d) Fucked up timing. There is basicly no timing window where you can make use of your thors. You can't push out with few Thors + Marauders because Thors start with 50 Energy (lol ...). I looked it up, a Thor needs exactly 1 min and 30 sec to make use of his 250 mm after he popped up. In the same time a P can produce 3 (!) chrono boosted Immortals. e) camping is not an option. You might think that sitting in your base or expanding after a few thors might be an option ... it's not. a) + c) + d) means that you are always behind in supply and P can just push you whenever he likes. tldr version: No mapcontrol, heavy cost and supply problems, open to drops and counter attacks, low energy (= no 250 mm) and being outmacroed easily makes this not viable at all.
A - for 6 population, the only thing that will do more damage than a thor are 2 tanks in siege mode
B - You're not supposed to push out until you macro up a better army. Going thor is for securing expos, not for killing protoss/map control. Use other units for that.
C - If you are defending with thors, then you are able to take advantage of travel time. You're able to get out 2 thors before 3 immortals will come to your base, even with chrono. The other stuff melts to bunkers w/ marauders or marines.
D - Who said anything about pushing out with thors? Whole point is to secure expos and mass a better army. You FE with this build, not attack -_-
E - Camping is an option. With thors for immortals and MM/sieged tanks for everything else, then you can repel almost anything the toss throws at you. Being behind on supply is fine if you are defending. P can't push whenever he likes because if he loses his army he's going to be screwed when I take the map and get more expansions.
Don't misuse the build. It's a solely defensive build and you're not supposed to attack with it. The whole purpose of it is so you can mass a huge army, not to build up the strongest army in the shortest amount of time.
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LOL this is the funniest stuff I heard.
First off becaues of Terran's opener it's very difficult against a protoss to do any other build order than plyon->gateway->plyon->cybernetic->gas.
We need Stalkers off the bat just incase of a Reaper.
Then we need immortals to survive against Mauraders and there is a window of timeof vunerability for protoss until his first Immortal appears. Also ghosts completely counter the Immortals.
I can't believe just one nerf to Mauraders caused this rage against Immortals. It's extremely funny that Terran can 10 rack owned Protoss because of the imbalances pre-patch and now I hear these things.
Learn to adapt and play the game. It is getting more balanced and Protoss has plenty of other issues they have to worry about.
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ok, take it from someone here that has very few complete bio marauder games as tvp. I 99% play ghost-mech vs protoss, and even then, the immortal is too strong of a unit.
It is not that Terran mech has ever been weak, it's a problem with the immortal being too strong for what it does, it's cost, and it's hardened shield + damage to armored (hard counter idiocy in SC2 that browder+dev team have slowly been weeding out thank god).
I've played countless ghost mech games, the difficulty is establishing a position, map control, and how strong immortals are even after you have EMP'd them.
I've played games where I managed to defend good, get ghost mech rolling with hellion harrass, and steamroll after that and it would make the immortal look like a useless piece of trash unit.
but on the other side of the coin, and more so lately, I have played similar games where Protoss are still doing a x2-x4 warpgate/robo immortal aggressiveness that denies you your expo unless you get 5-6 bunkers, and then they have complete map control, and on maps with stupid CnC gold minerals you will autolose to their economy.
just the action of your opponent making an immortal negates your entire Terran unit combination/tech tree. Just 1-2 immortals out there, and now you 100% must have EMP, micro it perfectly, and even then, now that players realized how imbalanced immortals are vs T, they will have 7-10+ immortals and a massive ball of random units (they can literally build anything, mass zealots/stalkers/sentry whatever) and they don't care if you get 100% perfect EMP's off, your army is dead due to the high damage of immortals.
And if you missed EMP's or didn't have any, they are even more than happy with their too strong immortal. 
People that think they are not a problem really have no idea right now, or are way too optimistic that Terrans magically will try something inspirational with what we have already. There is nothing that has not been done already.
you have marauder/medivac/marine bio mass with EMP, which is not that effective vs good protoss anymore. immortals stomp on that quite hard with forcefield abuse too.
you have airmech, using heavy amounts of banshees, but good P can survive this as well, or do heavy damage to you b4 you get it going.
you have ghost mech, which apparently many T still do not like trying. Well, I admit it is tricky to get running.
when you have so many good players doing all of these things to counter 1 unit, and still losing massive amounts of games, it's safe to say the immortal is imbalanced. basically, hardened shield needs to be an upgrade as well, much like they did to the marauder's rapeshells.
it's a combination of it being too hard a counter, doing mega damage to armored, and all the while being semi-invincible at the same time.
it's OP yes.
edit: oh, and thors suck vs immortals in an army. yay, you cannon'd one, what are you going to do about the other 5? lol
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If a protoss stomps your marauder/medivac/marine bio mass with EMP by using FORCEFIELD abuse then you're doing something horribly wrong^^;. Last I checked EMP removed all energy from units and had a range of 10 (at least according to the sc2 data files and other people).
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On April 13 2010 11:07 Feefee wrote:
If a protoss stomps your marauder/medivac/marine bio mass with EMP by using FORCEFIELD abuse then you're doing something horribly wrong^^;. Last I checked EMP removed all energy from units and had a range of 10 (at least according to the sc2 data files and other people).
Do you have 30 EMP's that all instantaneously and perfectly get off on every single unit on your screen immediately?
No.
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On April 13 2010 10:45 datachild wrote:
LOL this is the funniest stuff I heard.
Learn to adapt and play the game. It is getting more balanced and Protoss has plenty of other issues they have to worry about.
The real funny stuff is how so many protoss keep posting this but yet mysteriously cannot seem to produce any replays of the terran winning versus this immortal timing build, without the protoss making huge mistakes to cost himself the game. It really doesn't seem like that tall of an order. Not many protoss really perfected this timing build prepatch because super early aggressive marauder play would kill them. Now that got nerfed, and many more protoss have really fine tuned this build. I mean at this point I would be happy with any replays that have the terran getting to a 1 expansion versus 1 expansion midgame scenario without being ridiculously behind. Even if the terran ultimately lost the game PAST that point, I'd be happy with that.
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On April 13 2010 11:11 BigOleDonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 10:45 datachild wrote:
LOL this is the funniest stuff I heard.
Learn to adapt and play the game. It is getting more balanced and Protoss has plenty of other issues they have to worry about.
The real funny stuff is how so many protoss keep posting this but yet mysteriously cannot seem to produce any replays of the terran winning versus this immortal timing build, without the protoss making huge mistakes to cost himself the game. It really doesn't seem like that tall of an order.
this. probably because the high level toss that rarely make mistakes rape face in PvT.
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On April 13 2010 09:25 PhiliBiRD wrote:
mezmerize if u wanna add me we can try some things out im rank 5 plat terran div 18.1700+ pts
philibird.hed
that goes for any1 if u want to practice TvP strats/or anything rele
also note brat.ok did a new TvP strat in zotac #7, marauder/marine with fast raven/medivac. ghost around 50 food. ravens nullifies observers and point defense drone is a good counter to stalkers not sure if it works against immortal. worked vs a player named chobo but im not familiar with him. its really hard to know if different strats actually work or if the players who they work against are messing up.
so.. 2 rax tech to raven? can you link :o
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On April 13 2010 11:09 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 11:07 Feefee wrote:
If a protoss stomps your marauder/medivac/marine bio mass with EMP by using FORCEFIELD abuse then you're doing something horribly wrong^^;. Last I checked EMP removed all energy from units and had a range of 10 (at least according to the sc2 data files and other people). Do you have 30 EMP's that all instantaneously and perfectly get off on every single unit on your screen immediately? No.
You're right, I don't. Any reasonable protoss army will be completely EMP'ed after 6 or so however. If you don't have that many then maybe you can target-EMP the immortals and/or sentries? Just a thought. I do however, always, get my EMP off perfectly. Has to do with the whole 10 range no travel time thing. I can safely say I have never failed to EMP a unit that I wanted to EMP.
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On April 13 2010 11:30 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 11:09 avilo wrote:On April 13 2010 11:07 Feefee wrote:
If a protoss stomps your marauder/medivac/marine bio mass with EMP by using FORCEFIELD abuse then you're doing something horribly wrong^^;. Last I checked EMP removed all energy from units and had a range of 10 (at least according to the sc2 data files and other people). Do you have 30 EMP's that all instantaneously and perfectly get off on every single unit on your screen immediately? No. You're right, I don't. Any reasonable protoss army will be completely EMP'ed after 6 or so however. If you don't have that many then maybe you can target-EMP the immortals and/or sentries? Just a thought. I do however, always, get my EMP off perfectly. Has to do with the whole 10 range no travel time thing. I can safely say I have never failed to EMP a unit that I wanted to EMP.
And do they care if they're 7+ immortals are EMP'd? not really. They're going to still roll you with those immortals+remaining units.
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''The Immortal problem'' .... The problem that won't die !
On a side note, Raven can be usefull. But has seen in Huk replays, it's really hard to counter ''early'' game. I tried siege tank but it's really hard to always have the upper hand in positioning etc..
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So I've developed a deep6 like build and it seems to work fairly well to most immortal pushes. Early tank scares off harass until multiple immortals are out and by that time i have enough stuff to walk from my base to his base and just keep massing.
Also banshee play is still extremely reliable. Reapers suck against protoss. I haven't seen a legitimate way other than rax before depot of getting reapers out in time to do serious enough damage to keep them in their base.
Haven't had the opportunity to play around with a lot of builds though as most assholes are picking random these days.
Edit: also swapping to tanks isn't a good idea against protoss. With the blink ability it's like instantly having goons in melee range whenever you push out. Tied in with zealots and immortals mech play is just dumb in this match up and has been completely outdated.
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On April 13 2010 12:19 Mente wrote:
So I've developed a deep6 like build and it seems to work fairly well to most immortal pushes. Early tank scares off harass until multiple immortals are out and by that time i have enough stuff to walk from my base to his base and just keep massing.
Also banshee play is still extremely reliable. Reapers suck against protoss. I haven't seen a legitimate way other than rax before depot of getting reapers out in time to do serious enough damage to keep them in their base.
Haven't had the opportunity to play around with a lot of builds though as most assholes are picking random these days.
I'd like to see some replays, but I'm going to guess that immortal drops will demolish your build. Protoss is too strong right now in terms of their options. Terran has to commit and protoss can just change it up however they want on the fly. =/
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Thank god for this thread. Seriously, since the last patch im like 1-10 against toss, and the only win was a bunker cheese on DO
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On April 13 2010 12:22 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 12:19 Mente wrote:
So I've developed a deep6 like build and it seems to work fairly well to most immortal pushes. Early tank scares off harass until multiple immortals are out and by that time i have enough stuff to walk from my base to his base and just keep massing.
Also banshee play is still extremely reliable. Reapers suck against protoss. I haven't seen a legitimate way other than rax before depot of getting reapers out in time to do serious enough damage to keep them in their base.
Haven't had the opportunity to play around with a lot of builds though as most assholes are picking random these days. I'd like to see some replays, but I'm going to guess that immortal drops will demolish your build. Protoss is too strong right now in terms of their options. Terran has to commit and protoss can just change it up however they want on the fly. =/
I tried these builds on maps where I had back doors. That's practically the same thing. I don't feel I'm too static or a warp prism is too threatening to begin with.
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On April 13 2010 12:54 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 12:22 Floophead_III wrote:On April 13 2010 12:19 Mente wrote:
So I've developed a deep6 like build and it seems to work fairly well to most immortal pushes. Early tank scares off harass until multiple immortals are out and by that time i have enough stuff to walk from my base to his base and just keep massing.
Also banshee play is still extremely reliable. Reapers suck against protoss. I haven't seen a legitimate way other than rax before depot of getting reapers out in time to do serious enough damage to keep them in their base.
Haven't had the opportunity to play around with a lot of builds though as most assholes are picking random these days. I'd like to see some replays, but I'm going to guess that immortal drops will demolish your build. Protoss is too strong right now in terms of their options. Terran has to commit and protoss can just change it up however they want on the fly. =/ I tried these builds on maps where I had back doors. That's practically the same thing. I don't feel I'm too static or a warp prism is too threatening to begin with.
Replays needed because your idea looks no different than 2rax w/ ghosts or 2rax > tanks > ghosts
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On April 13 2010 11:30 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 11:09 avilo wrote:On April 13 2010 11:07 Feefee wrote:
If a protoss stomps your marauder/medivac/marine bio mass with EMP by using FORCEFIELD abuse then you're doing something horribly wrong^^;. Last I checked EMP removed all energy from units and had a range of 10 (at least according to the sc2 data files and other people). Do you have 30 EMP's that all instantaneously and perfectly get off on every single unit on your screen immediately? No. You're right, I don't. Any reasonable protoss army will be completely EMP'ed after 6 or so however. If you don't have that many then maybe you can target-EMP the immortals and/or sentries? Just a thought. I do however, always, get my EMP off perfectly. Has to do with the whole 10 range no travel time thing. I can safely say I have never failed to EMP a unit that I wanted to EMP.
The problem is-
1) You have to see it coming well in advance, and get your ghost ready.
2) You have to EMP him right before the battle. If you wait until the battle starts, the immortals will have already killed all your armored units
3) If you EMP too soon, the protoss can just pull back and wait 20 seconds for the shields to come back, while continuing to warp in reinforcements. Then attack again and now you can't emp.
EMP is powerful, but it's so hard to rely on. You basically need to do it perfectly or else you die. And this is all assuming that he doesn't just feedback your ghosts lol.
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The problem is you're spending 300/200 just to remove his shields once. It's such a massive investment and if he plays smart emp won't matter at all. It might keep you alive, but it won't let you get map control.
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On April 13 2010 13:11 Floophead_III wrote:
The problem is you're spending 300/200 just to remove his shields once. It's such a massive investment and if he plays smart emp won't matter at all. It might keep you alive, but it won't let you get map control.
yeah, that too. it's almost impossible to use EMP in the open map, when you're not sure where the battle is going to happen.
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On April 13 2010 13:00 imBLIND wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 12:54 Mente wrote:On April 13 2010 12:22 Floophead_III wrote:On April 13 2010 12:19 Mente wrote:
So I've developed a deep6 like build and it seems to work fairly well to most immortal pushes. Early tank scares off harass until multiple immortals are out and by that time i have enough stuff to walk from my base to his base and just keep massing.
Also banshee play is still extremely reliable. Reapers suck against protoss. I haven't seen a legitimate way other than rax before depot of getting reapers out in time to do serious enough damage to keep them in their base.
Haven't had the opportunity to play around with a lot of builds though as most assholes are picking random these days. I'd like to see some replays, but I'm going to guess that immortal drops will demolish your build. Protoss is too strong right now in terms of their options. Terran has to commit and protoss can just change it up however they want on the fly. =/ I tried these builds on maps where I had back doors. That's practically the same thing. I don't feel I'm too static or a warp prism is too threatening to begin with. Replays needed because your idea looks no different than 2rax w/ ghosts or 2rax > tanks > ghosts
Siege expand into deep 6 has nothing to do with ghosts or 2 rax???
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On April 13 2010 13:23 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 13:00 imBLIND wrote:On April 13 2010 12:54 Mente wrote:On April 13 2010 12:22 Floophead_III wrote:On April 13 2010 12:19 Mente wrote:
So I've developed a deep6 like build and it seems to work fairly well to most immortal pushes. Early tank scares off harass until multiple immortals are out and by that time i have enough stuff to walk from my base to his base and just keep massing.
Also banshee play is still extremely reliable. Reapers suck against protoss. I haven't seen a legitimate way other than rax before depot of getting reapers out in time to do serious enough damage to keep them in their base.
Haven't had the opportunity to play around with a lot of builds though as most assholes are picking random these days. I'd like to see some replays, but I'm going to guess that immortal drops will demolish your build. Protoss is too strong right now in terms of their options. Terran has to commit and protoss can just change it up however they want on the fly. =/ I tried these builds on maps where I had back doors. That's practically the same thing. I don't feel I'm too static or a warp prism is too threatening to begin with. Replays needed because your idea looks no different than 2rax w/ ghosts or 2rax > tanks > ghosts Siege expand into deep 6 has nothing to do with ghosts or 2 rax???
Replays are still needed because i honestly have no idea how you get away with a siege expand vs immortals.
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On April 13 2010 13:11 Floophead_III wrote:
The problem is you're spending 300/200 just to remove his shields once. It's such a massive investment and if he plays smart emp won't matter at all. It might keep you alive, but it won't let you get map control.
300/200 is less than the cost of two immortals.
And why is this hard to scout again?
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On April 13 2010 13:31 imBLIND wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 13:23 Mente wrote:On April 13 2010 13:00 imBLIND wrote:On April 13 2010 12:54 Mente wrote:On April 13 2010 12:22 Floophead_III wrote:On April 13 2010 12:19 Mente wrote:
So I've developed a deep6 like build and it seems to work fairly well to most immortal pushes. Early tank scares off harass until multiple immortals are out and by that time i have enough stuff to walk from my base to his base and just keep massing.
Also banshee play is still extremely reliable. Reapers suck against protoss. I haven't seen a legitimate way other than rax before depot of getting reapers out in time to do serious enough damage to keep them in their base.
Haven't had the opportunity to play around with a lot of builds though as most assholes are picking random these days. I'd like to see some replays, but I'm going to guess that immortal drops will demolish your build. Protoss is too strong right now in terms of their options. Terran has to commit and protoss can just change it up however they want on the fly. =/ I tried these builds on maps where I had back doors. That's practically the same thing. I don't feel I'm too static or a warp prism is too threatening to begin with. Replays needed because your idea looks no different than 2rax w/ ghosts or 2rax > tanks > ghosts Siege expand into deep 6 has nothing to do with ghosts or 2 rax??? Replays are still needed because i honestly have no idea how you get away with a siege expand vs immortals.
I'll get you replays as soon as I can.
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On April 13 2010 15:08 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 13:31 imBLIND wrote:On April 13 2010 13:23 Mente wrote:On April 13 2010 13:00 imBLIND wrote:On April 13 2010 12:54 Mente wrote:On April 13 2010 12:22 Floophead_III wrote:On April 13 2010 12:19 Mente wrote:
So I've developed a deep6 like build and it seems to work fairly well to most immortal pushes. Early tank scares off harass until multiple immortals are out and by that time i have enough stuff to walk from my base to his base and just keep massing.
Also banshee play is still extremely reliable. Reapers suck against protoss. I haven't seen a legitimate way other than rax before depot of getting reapers out in time to do serious enough damage to keep them in their base.
Haven't had the opportunity to play around with a lot of builds though as most assholes are picking random these days. I'd like to see some replays, but I'm going to guess that immortal drops will demolish your build. Protoss is too strong right now in terms of their options. Terran has to commit and protoss can just change it up however they want on the fly. =/ I tried these builds on maps where I had back doors. That's practically the same thing. I don't feel I'm too static or a warp prism is too threatening to begin with. Replays needed because your idea looks no different than 2rax w/ ghosts or 2rax > tanks > ghosts Siege expand into deep 6 has nothing to do with ghosts or 2 rax??? Replays are still needed because i honestly have no idea how you get away with a siege expand vs immortals. I'll get you replays as soon as I can.
Yes, plz show me how the heck you siege expand successfully. The only maps I've been able to it on are Kulas (using the backdoor expo) and LT (because you actually can cover your nat choke from a cliff.)
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On April 13 2010 13:55 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 13:11 Floophead_III wrote:
The problem is you're spending 300/200 just to remove his shields once. It's such a massive investment and if he plays smart emp won't matter at all. It might keep you alive, but it won't let you get map control. 300/200 is less than the cost of two immortals. And why is this hard to scout again?
you missed the entire point of this whole thread. scouting is far from even being remotely close to the reason why we are having trouble.
watch a standard replay of toss immortal push vs terran. at the 8 minute mark. look at "money spending" in the top left drop down tab. terran has spent a crapload more money into upgrades than toss has. and this is just to have a decent chance, and as they said, if u mess up your EMP or he knows how to micro(spreads out immortals/sentry) you really have no chance. cuz now you need even more ghosts. not to mention he has a stronger army because of the money spent upgrading.
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Well, find a way to artificially delay the push then. Here's a suggestion, make hardened shields a 100/100 upgrade and slap it in the cyber core with a 100 sec time. There, done. Immortals are still the stone cold rapists they have to be, Protoss has to choose between shields and immortals and warpgates and Terran has a bit more breathing time before the long hard cock of Protoss descends down their throat.
What I don't like is that the other tech trees are a bit crap. Starport is useless (phoenixes.... LOL!) and the templar tech can be counterable. Suggestion here? Alter Gravitron beam to be different vs light biological targets; it doesn't channel and perhaps cost less. This would allows phoenixes to harass bio terrans by flying in, lifting up some marines, shooting them really quickly then running back, recharging shields and doing it again. It won't kill the terran (probably) but if he's caught unprepared then he is going to get hurt, but this sounds like a post for another thread...
Stick with the immortals.
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On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now.
fuck yea you are completly right, so many ppl missing the point. in sc1 terrans had scan and it had its own energypool, now T has to sacrifice his macromechanic if he wants to get awareness and be able to prepare, but then you are unable to prepare because you just wasted 270minerals on static obbserver that lasts for 10seconds..... and obs come from the same building that immo/collosos and warp prism, which is a must have building for any P... = no sideways tech.
Its obvious to me (and you it seems) that obbs should require an additional building/cost more/take longer to build for it to even out this MU.
Either that or fix the orbital command, because right now its broken imo, Ive said this for a long time but no1 cares >.< the problem is blatant in TvP but also shown in TvZ, having to sacrifice economy for scouting is just not fun for your macro..
Oh and its impossible to run over creep to scout Zerg exps/tech because of every unit gains speed on creep, outrunning every T unit and they just die before they get anywhere, 1 zergling will stop any unit..sigh =/ floating factory is one way to go about it, but having to fly your own tech building into your enemies base to find out wtf is going on is just sad...
also its not like its hard to hide tech with any race, not even Z any more, you can just poop creep anywhere and hide techbuildings, even easier than for a protoss player.
The problem is most blatant in tho is TvT which is imo a rockpaperscissors game.. scan to much? you just lost to an early tankpush.
Scan to little? you just lost to banshees/vikings/fastexp
It could be argued that its a skill to determine when to scan and when to mule, but its really just a gamble, you have to make assumptions all the time about what your opponent is doing, which is retarded for a STRATEGY GAME.
point made, blizz now fix :D
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On April 13 2010 16:37 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now. fuck yea you are completly right, so many ppl missing the point. in sc1 terrans had scan and it had its own energypool, now T has to sacrifice his macromechanic if he wants to get awareness and be able to prepare, but then you are unable to prepare because you just wasted 270minerals on static obbserver that lasts for 10seconds..... and obs come from the same building that immo/collosos and warp prism, which is a must have building for any P... = no sideways tech. Its obvious to me (and you it seems) that obbs should require an additional building/cost more/take longer to build for it to even out this MU. Either that or fix the orbital command, because right now its broken imo, Ive said this for a long time but no1 cares >.< the problem is blatant in TvP but also shown in TvZ, having to sacrifice economy for scouting is just not fun for your macro.. Oh and its impossible to run over creep to scout Zerg exps/tech because of every unit gains speed on creep, outrunning every T unit and they just die before they get anywhere, 1 zergling will stop any unit..sigh =/ floating factory is one way to go about it, but having to fly your own tech building into your enemies base to find out wtf is going on is just sad... also its not like its hard to hide tech with any race, not even Z any more, you can just poop creep anywhere and hide techbuildings, even easier than for a protoss player. The problem is most blatant in tho is TvT which is imo a rockpaperscissors game.. scan to much? you just lost to an early tankpush. Scan to little? you just lost to banshees/vikings/fastexp It could be argued that its a skill to determine when to scan and when to mule, but its really just a gamble, you have to make assumptions all the time about what your opponent is doing, which is retarded for a STRATEGY GAME. point made, blizz now fix :D
you know you could build like...turrets. i heard theyre good.
the reason scan is expensive is because its all the time every time. you cant deny scan.
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On April 13 2010 16:37 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now. + Show Spoiler +fuck yea you are completly right, so many ppl missing the point. in sc1 terrans had scan and it had its own energypool, now T has to sacrifice his macromechanic if he wants to get awareness and be able to prepare, but then you are unable to prepare because you just wasted 270minerals on static obbserver that lasts for 10seconds..... and obs come from the same building that immo/collosos and warp prism, which is a must have building for any P... = no sideways tech.
Its obvious to me (and you it seems) that obbs should require an additional building/cost more/take longer to build for it to even out this MU.
Either that or fix the orbital command, because right now its broken imo, Ive said this for a long time but no1 cares >.< the problem is blatant in TvP but also shown in TvZ, having to sacrifice economy for scouting is just not fun for your macro..
Oh and its impossible to run over creep to scout Zerg exps/tech because of every unit gains speed on creep, outrunning every T unit and they just die before they get anywhere, 1 zergling will stop any unit..sigh =/ floating factory is one way to go about it, but having to fly your own tech building into your enemies base to find out wtf is going on is just sad...
also its not like its hard to hide tech with any race, not even Z any more, you can just poop creep anywhere and hide techbuildings, even easier than for a protoss player. The problem is most blatant in tho is TvT which is imo a rockpaperscissors game.. scan to much? you just lost to an early tankpush. Scan to little? you just lost to banshees/vikings/fastexp It could be argued that its a skill to determine when to scan and when to mule, but its really just a gamble, you have to make assumptions all the time about what your opponent is doing, which is retarded for a STRATEGY GAME. point made, blizz now fix :D
I've been saying the exact same thing for a while now. 270 minerals is a ridiculous cost for a scan, no serious Terran will consider that worthwhile early game.
You think once this game has been out a while macro Terrans in the Iloveoov mold are gonna waste 270 minerals? Don't make me laugh. Even if you do scan against a good player you've got a 50% chance of seeing nothing at all.
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On April 13 2010 16:42 mOnion wrote:
you know you could build like...turrets. i heard theyre good.
the reason scan is expensive is because its all the time every time. you cant deny scan.
You need 5+ turrets to deny observers from seeing your base. Simply impossible in a real game.
You can never deny speedlords or a changling.
Your scan will often show nothing if they hide their tech building. 270 minerals gone, for nothing.
Observers were way costlier and slower to obtain and very much a sideways tech in SC1. Unbalanced? No.
Scans cost next to nothing in SC1. Unbalanced? No.
Zerg had much few scouting options in SC1 than in SC2. Unbalanced? No.
From sc1 to sc2 -> Z and P scouting got buffed. T got nerfed.
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On April 13 2010 16:42 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 16:37 arnold(soTa) wrote:On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now. fuck yea you are completly right, so many ppl missing the point. in sc1 terrans had scan and it had its own energypool, now T has to sacrifice his macromechanic if he wants to get awareness and be able to prepare, but then you are unable to prepare because you just wasted 270minerals on static obbserver that lasts for 10seconds..... and obs come from the same building that immo/collosos and warp prism, which is a must have building for any P... = no sideways tech. Its obvious to me (and you it seems) that obbs should require an additional building/cost more/take longer to build for it to even out this MU. Either that or fix the orbital command, because right now its broken imo, Ive said this for a long time but no1 cares >.< the problem is blatant in TvP but also shown in TvZ, having to sacrifice economy for scouting is just not fun for your macro.. Oh and its impossible to run over creep to scout Zerg exps/tech because of every unit gains speed on creep, outrunning every T unit and they just die before they get anywhere, 1 zergling will stop any unit..sigh =/ floating factory is one way to go about it, but having to fly your own tech building into your enemies base to find out wtf is going on is just sad... also its not like its hard to hide tech with any race, not even Z any more, you can just poop creep anywhere and hide techbuildings, even easier than for a protoss player. The problem is most blatant in tho is TvT which is imo a rockpaperscissors game.. scan to much? you just lost to an early tankpush. Scan to little? you just lost to banshees/vikings/fastexp It could be argued that its a skill to determine when to scan and when to mule, but its really just a gamble, you have to make assumptions all the time about what your opponent is doing, which is retarded for a STRATEGY GAME. point made, blizz now fix :D you know you could build like...turrets. i heard theyre good. the reason scan is expensive is because its all the time every time. you cant deny scan.
yes like im gonna make eng bay vs protoss early game ? also turrets are stationary and cost 100minerals (not counting buildingtime) low health and only attack air+collosus
you didnt adress anything I argued, you just named a static D and were done with it, i heard that is like...retarded.
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You need 5+ turrets to deny observers from seeing your base. Simply impossible in a real game.
well thats not true at all. on maps like LT you can get away with like 3. its very much doable in real games especially not that turrets 3 shot obs.
yes like im gonna make eng bay vs protoss early game
why not? upgrades are beneficial as well.
in sc1 turret placment became an artform for denying scouting and there are many notable games where you have to sack 2 stacked observers in order to see what terran is doing, and if you didnt do it fast enought then T would deep six you (sorry bisu)
scanning is relatively expensive, but there's no reason you cant scout with banshees/vikings if scanning is too rich for ur blood.
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While i am not a good player, but i think a few ghost will do...
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Earlier i thought it was possible to FE and i posted a build
Turns out i was wrong, after practising this build a few times with some friends it still gets rolled over if protoss all-ins correctly.
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On April 13 2010 17:34 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +You need 5+ turrets to deny observers from seeing your base. Simply impossible in a real game. well thats not true at all. on maps like LT you can get away with like 3. its very much doable in real games especially not that turrets 3 shot obs. why not? upgrades are beneficial as well. in sc1 turret placment became an artform for denying scouting and there are many notable games where you have to sack 2 stacked observers in order to see what terran is doing, and if you didnt do it fast enought then T would deep six you (sorry bisu) scanning is relatively expensive, but there's no reason you cant scout with banshees/vikings if scanning is too rich for ur blood.
your original post offered nothing construtive, I wasnt beng defensive, I just merely brushing your post off because you jumped passed all the logical arguments and said "build some static D"
The point is no sideways tech for obbserver = there will always be a TON of them scouting whle being invisible.. without requiring any economical sacrifices excepts the buildtime for obbservers (they are cheap aswell...)
You suggest I should tech to starport to scout??? really? ofcourse I will scout with a viking/medevac if I go any build that requires starport...but honestly you will not have one early unless you make a bansheersuh, which you wont because you die to competent players.
turretplacement in sc1 may be "an artform" lols, but its still not viable to put up 3+ turrets in my base simply beacuse there MIGHT be an obbserver there.. and even if there is I have just wasted 300 minerals + buildtime on denying your scouting my mainbase ....but you have already gathered the needed information by the time my first turret is up anyway...
the reason turretplacement was as you say an artform in sc1 in TvP is because obbservers..but for a different reason than mainly to scout, they were to detect spidermines <-- arent in sc2..
also there was the very possible dangers of reavers/zealot/HT drops ontop of tanks/minerallines etc..
obbservers can traverse the map in no time checking expansions/troop movement etc, and terran has no mobile detector except the raven, which is really expensive and ontop of the techtree, granted I will make on often vs P but still this is a non-factor early game.
honestly I wonder if you even have the beta..seems like you are thinking in sc1 terms, the game is VERY different and especially TvP is extremly different...
edit: obbserver will just move out of turretrange when he sees them build, you wont get the kill vs a player with apm over 40 unless he cocks up...congrats now you are freet to tech..oh wait he has just busted up your front door while you spent all your resources on being able to tech to..what exactly? immortal covers it anyway and is very decent against marauders also.. I may have gone a bit offtopic from the orignal post but I tend to rant on sometimes sry..
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Arnold, could i convince you to try playing protoss a few games and post your results? I would be particularly interested in seeing all those cheap and lightning fast observers covering the whole map
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i dont seee why observers matter, toss doesnt need observers to win. theres nothing terran can do to throw toss off balance. the most you can throw them is banshees and thats countered near instantly.
in my experience, sometimes protoss will make 2-3 immortals b4 an observer. because it doesnt matter what i went an immortal push will take it out.
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On April 13 2010 19:13 katzenkoenig wrote:Arnold, could i convince you to try playing protoss a few games and post your results? I would be particularly interested in seeing all those cheap and lightning fast observers covering the whole map
I play all races, but mainly terran I will admit. I dont see whats so difficult in making fast obbservers seeing as I in 90+% of PvT will make a queite fast robotics...
do I really need to post a replay of this?
and you do know they can move right? you can upgrade their speed too... you dont need to build one per expansion, one will suffice for scouting purposes really, once you have established where his troops are and what his tech is you will be able to control the map, especially now that marauders cant put early pressure on P.. this is protoss 1.01
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On April 13 2010 19:58 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 19:13 katzenkoenig wrote:Arnold, could i convince you to try playing protoss a few games and post your results? I would be particularly interested in seeing all those cheap and lightning fast observers covering the whole map I play all races, but mainly terran I will admit. I dont see whats so difficult in making fast obbservers seeing as I in 90+% of PvT will make a queite fast robotics... do I really need to post a replay of this? and you do know they can move right? you can upgrade their speed too... you dont need to build one per expansion, one will suffice for scouting purposes really, once you have established where his troops are and what his tech is you will be able to control the map, especially now that marauders cant put early pressure on P.. this is protoss 1.01
To be honest, your rant sounded more like Advanced Terran Bias... Observers cost 75 gas each, move pretty slowly and die in 3 hits from a turret that shoots fairly fast - if you don't babysit your observer, there's a really good chance you'll lose it (and a single scan also works wonders). You can upgrade their speed, but when you're going for colossi, you can't really afford to waste more time and gas on this upgrade when you want to get thermal lances and more than 1 colossus asap. Mass Bio is still the way to go for terran, teching for mech is a huge risk in most games - just like going for high templars. And hey, since 90% of all protoss are getting a fast robotics, you don't even have to scout in the first place
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The problem with observer isnt just the all the time scouting in enemy base. It pretty much denies all high ground advantage of a T or Z.
Dont say build turrets there is always a spot where u can place the observer and cant be seen. Ive seen some replays in a post here where observer+temps pretty much wins the toss game easily.
- see T army at all times and click on feedback from afar. If u set ur temps to feedback from like 100 yards away T cant react in time no matter the APM.
- tank+rines drop on LT ridge? no problem just put observer near and blink up
- medivacs thors all can be feedbacked from afar w/o the need of a high APM toss just because u see the T army first.
- in sc1 u needed an aditional building to make observers and they moved like snails w/o aditional upgrade. In sc2 u just build robotics (core building of P ground army) - in sc1 u build robotics only for shuttle and/or reavers with adiitional buildings needed.
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On April 13 2010 20:28 sadyque wrote:
The problem with observer isnt just the all the time scouting in enemy base. It pretty much denies all high ground advantage of a T or Z.
- Z has Overlords and T has Scans... Observers cost a lot of Gas and if you don't plan on going for Immos or Collossi, they even need another Building... Besides, T almost always has Medivacs, which completely kill any highground-advantage.
But I'm not saying that the current high-ground-advantage-system isn't absolute crap - cuz it is! ^^'
On April 13 2010 20:28 sadyque wrote:
Dont say build turrets there is always a spot where u can place the observer and cant be seen. Ive seen some replays in a post here where observer+temps pretty much wins the toss game easily.
- see T army at all times and click on feedback from afar. If u set ur temps to feedback from like 100 yards away T cant react in time no matter the APM.
EMP Range> Feedback Range + Ghost Speed>>>Templar Speed = No Problem for Terran. If your Ghosts get feedbacked, your just bad and the Protoss as well, cuz you don't risk a Templar for feedbacking, if you cast a spell with the Templar when Ghosts are around, you'll cast Storm...
On April 13 2010 20:28 sadyque wrote:
- tank+rines drop on LT ridge? no problem just put observer near and blink up
- medivacs thors all can be feedbacked from afar w/o the need of a high APM toss just because u see the T army first.
Okay, You'd need Blink AND Observers, which are two different techroutes, whilst Terran has floating Buildings, medivacs and scans to deal with stuff on the cliff... And Z has Overlords - who has bigger Problems dealing with the new highground-advantage? On LT, Kulas etc. your basically forced to go Robo for Observers and maybe Prisms, just because T can hop up there with a Reaper and snipe you gas... -.-°
On April 13 2010 20:28 sadyque wrote:
- in sc1 u needed an aditional building to make observers and they moved like snails w/o aditional upgrade. In sc2 u just build robotics (core building of P ground army) - in sc1 u build robotics only for shuttle and/or reavers with adiitional buildings needed.
That's true, but Observers cost a lot of Gas in SC2, besides - you don't always wanna go for an extremely early robo...
But all of your complaints can be traced back not to imbalance between the races, but a very flawed and easily abusable High-ground-mechanic... It's just sooo annoying and doesn't require skill.
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There is a issue with the immortal, idk how to fix it, but its certainly something
Only TvP i win is where the toss messes up
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Ghosts any1?... Always the terrans whining :D.
Also if we are talking about making stuff upgrades why do ghosts start out with emp? Thats like hts starting with storm...
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Everytime I scan, I die a little inside.
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On April 13 2010 21:11 Technique wrote:
Ghosts any1?... Always the terrans whining :D.
Also if we are talking about making stuff upgrades why do ghosts start out with emp? Thats like hts starting with storm...
I know - I've said that like a hundred times in this thread already and atm, I basically win every game against T if there is no Ghost on the field and I loose almost every game when the opponent chooses to go for one or more Ghosts. -.-°
It's like some Terrans forget that there is sth that completely rips apart Immortals hardened shield and makes then extremely vulnerable to Marauders or anything else....
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Why can't people realize the immortal is a soft counter to the marauder, once the marauder has stim + EMP backup the marauder actually kills immortals hard. EMP is nearly uncounterable (range 10 vs 9 range on feedback) and sits quite early on the tech tree.
I do agree with the terran scouting issue, the opportunity cost of a scan is quite high making it not that fantastic early on. There are decent other ways to get information though but require more effort then the observer.
In TvP this is much less a issue though as marauder/ghost/marine/medivac(+viking) does well against any toss army composition. All you have to scout for is the ratio of stuff you need.
Also emp counters a observer, especially if the observer moves you can see him pretty well on screen. Emp and the ghost automatically kills it.
If anything is wrong at all with the immortal it's his ability to kill buildings to easily, a immortal push early will take out buildings easily while running away to regen shield. I think changing buildings (except bunker/cannon/turrets/spire's etc) to non-light and non-armored such as queen would be a decent solution. That way marauders can't snipe nexi so fast and immortals dont kill building walls so insanely fast, which would leave a much stronger wall for terran to abuse the range advantage marauders have over immortals.
The game already has units with bonus damage solely to buildings (baneling and ghost nuke) so this would be a easy implementation imo.
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I think the no-bonus DMG against Buildings is a good thing, but it should also apply for Static defense, cuz you can buff stuff like Spine Crawler as high as you want it's still bad against Marauders/Immortals and everything that does Bonus-DMG against "Armored".
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Rofl, Terrans know that they have EMP. It's just a matter of fighting EVERYTHING ELSE besides the Immortals. We'll EMP the Immortals just fine and target the Immortals, but at the same time, the Protoss's Zealots/Sentries/Stalkers are tearing apart our units because Guardian Shield still protects Immortals by the Terran's max DPS. Remember, we're talking about this early immortal push. Terrans don't even have Medivacs by the time the push comes, we only have like 2 Ghosts + Marines + Marauders (maybe with stim). We can't fast expand, we just have to sit in our base. Protoss has map control meanwhile + can take expansions easily, because Terrans can't move out unless they have Medivacs. Terran is also quickly mining out his main because of MULEs. You see the dilemma?
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The first attack/contain comes before ghosts have even started. Anyone who mentions the word ghost or EMP is an idiot. They're not even a factor. Ghosts will allow you to eventually break the contain perhaps, but not until toss has expanded, added gateways, and macro'd to double your size. Anyone who says go marauders/ghosts also has no idea what they're talking about. Immortal drop will keep you contained so long. Once a range colossus is out on the field it's game over. Oh and don't get contained, you'll be force fielded for 5 minutes. You don't have any way to stop it.
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Can someone provide a replay with the immortal push? I probably am thinking of something totally different or am playing vs p who dont do it right or not at all but so far i ve a hard time losing vs toss early game if they don't cheese.
As a plat Terran player i mostly see me losing cause I am doing something wrong, i never ve the feeling like i had in wc3 with patch 1.5 where destroyers where just plain "i cant do anything against them". Me playing bad is mostly no indicator for something being too strong 
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On April 13 2010 20:14 katzenkoenig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 19:58 arnold(soTa) wrote:On April 13 2010 19:13 katzenkoenig wrote:Arnold, could i convince you to try playing protoss a few games and post your results? I would be particularly interested in seeing all those cheap and lightning fast observers covering the whole map I play all races, but mainly terran I will admit. I dont see whats so difficult in making fast obbservers seeing as I in 90+% of PvT will make a queite fast robotics... do I really need to post a replay of this? and you do know they can move right? you can upgrade their speed too... you dont need to build one per expansion, one will suffice for scouting purposes really, once you have established where his troops are and what his tech is you will be able to control the map, especially now that marauders cant put early pressure on P.. this is protoss 1.01 To be honest, your rant sounded more like Advanced Terran Bias... Observers cost 75 gas each, move pretty slowly and die in 3 hits from a turret that shoots fairly fast - if you don't babysit your observer, there's a really good chance you'll lose it (and a single scan also works wonders). You can upgrade their speed, but when you're going for colossi, you can't really afford to waste more time and gas on this upgrade when you want to get thermal lances and more than 1 colossus asap. Mass Bio is still the way to go for terran, teching for mech is a huge risk in most games - just like going for high templars. And hey, since 90% of all protoss are getting a fast robotics, you don't even have to scout in the first place
ye and how many minerals does one scan cost? 270.
and no you dont have to babysit your obbsevers roflcompstomp. you dont even have to worry about them since no good terran will be building turrets like crazy against protoss anyway. and losing one to scan is barely a setback since it cost him more to kill it than you paid for your obbserver x35, and you already got to use it for a while...
Just because I know most protoss goes early and fast robotics doesnt mean I dont need battlfield awareness........................ you sound like a copperplayer or just a really biased protoss. how about always being able to see your enemies troopmoment outside his base? without him being sure of when you can see him and when you cant? this discussion is just retarded.. how can you not see this, you may not thikn P>T, I dont honestly care and not 200% sure about it either, but obbs are queite clearly OP.
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If I see one more mention of scan vs observers in this thread I'll ask every mod on TL to ban you from these forums. I don't care who you are or what your point is, it's not relevant, take it somewhere else. This is a thread about the immortal push, its implications, and how to play TvP in general. It is not a mule vs observer imbalance thread and I'm tired of trolls derailing it.
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On April 13 2010 23:39 Floophead_III wrote:
The first attack/contain comes before ghosts have even started. Anyone who mentions the word ghost or EMP is an idiot.
"Ghost".... "EMP"....
I guess you're referring to a fast Robo into Immortal-push with a few Zealots, some sentry's and 1-2 Immos, right?
If you are contained and afraid of Protoss exing away in his backyard, why not put up a few Bunkers to counter force-fields and make an expansion in your base? you can even upgrade it to OCS and spam a few mules if you need a bit more time to gather a few M&M's and salvage your bunkers to push out with a few SCV's and secure your Nat.
Besides, expanding first in PvT is really hard for Protoss, cuz you really need every Unit you can get to defend against early Marauder-pushes, for T, expanding isn't a big deal, cuz they can stay in the base, put up a few bunkers and expand in the safety of their main.
other Options to deal with Containmaints:
- Tech to Banshees with cloak and rape Immos/Zealots/Sentrys HARD.
- Go for a Mass-stimmed Marauders+Ghost+SCV's ALL-IN (okay, quite radical, but a good option if you know that the Protoss is expanding atm and it will give you tons of wins.)
- Go for Medivac-Drops.
- Go for Tanks and break the contain. Even with hardened shields the Protoss has to back up when he can't attack up the ramp cuz of bunkers and Tanks and maybe a turret to deal with Observers.
- Get an Island-Expansion.
T really has the least problems of all races dealing with containments, so be a bit creative. ^^'
I don't say that Sentry-contains aren't strong and that fast-Immortals can rape Mass-Marauders early on, but you have lots of options dealing with that sort of early-game aggression very well, so use them and tech to ghosts and win.
Btw. Walling in against Protoss maybe not always the best Idea, cuz Immos can easily pick off buildings at the ramp, but have a very hard time against Marauders, cuz they have a long range and your Immos/Zealots/Sentrys are totally clumped up on the ramp - so maybe not walling in against Toss? 2-gate-Zealot-Proxy isn't that big of a deal with scv's+Marines anyways I guess, so I don't see the point of walling-in. Scouting is denied very fast thanks to marines as well...
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Currently the TvP is pretty hard especially early game where we've to start a cheesy or all-in strat to "win" games against Protoss, thats sad.
At the moment, I find this Mu complelty broken and not rly balanced while we only got EMP and marauders which are easely countered by Templars (ppl complaining about EMP when they got templars please practice more -> just feedback those 2/3 ghosts since you get longer range and storm with the rest) Even with that you dont need to attack as Protoss in this match up btw.
For the Early game, we can forget the FE as an good timed immortal push will break out our defense or we'll have to put 4 bunkers and a fortress ( lol ) when they can just move back and outexpand us.
Or decide to siege tank / expo which can be possible (forget DO/Scrap Station) but with that you lose your timing to push out since mech builds is a joke against Protoss (thanks again immortal/charge/blink etc..) and your bio push timing will come too late.
Or staying in one base waiting 1505566 upgrades to MAYBE get a chance to fight early game against a protoss. With that if again the protoss is GOOD he will get the timing to be at your ramp and make FF during 3/5mins, just the time for him to get coloss with his expand.
So I wanted to add a big up to Blizzard, dunno which weed they used but seemed pretty effective for the patch8, I wait sooooooo much the next patch to see how they'll help the TvP (and even ZvP)
Otherwise it's still a bit fun to play but quite boring to start cheesy strategy or starting a game knowing that you've to finish the game under 15 mins.
Otherwise I find others MU pretty balanced (for terran) but its not the thread!
GL guys against your opp Protoss !!
Wanted to add that, people who are telling us to start banshees etc.. are probably in low gold/silver because again a decent protoss will get his robo and see your tech and adapt when your tech is cheesy. And late game stop telling us again banshees are imba with viking. Get some stalkers to kill viking and get obs to feedback banshees and its countered so easely.
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On April 14 2010 00:06 SarenS wrote:
For the Early game, we can forget the FE as an good timed immortal push will break out our defense or we'll have to put 4 bunkers and a fortress ( lol ) when they can just move back and outexpand us.
Well, just FE'ing your ass off without knowing what your opponent is doing is just not the way to go, even though before the Marauder-nerf, exactly that was possible for Terran. You can't just get up a FE and expect to win against an early timing-push, cuz early timing-pushes counter Fast-Expansions and that's just the way it is.
Besides, ever tried mixing in a few Marines in your Mass-Marauder-Force or even wen't all rines+Bunker no gas expand early on? Maybe a better Idea then getting up all sorts of tech, gas-heavy stuff and expanding at the same time and thinking you'll get away with it and blindly playing the Unit that is countered by the Unit you seem so afraid off. ^^'
It's also important to look at the Maps. if you have Metalopolis cross-position, you can definitely get up an early expansion, just because the distance is so big, but if you really think you can pull it off on Steppes of War, you'll bound to loose to decent players.
It's not always Fast-Expansion or no Expansion all game long: Pressure with a few Marauders/Marines and scout if the opponent goes for an expansion. Cuz if you try to say to me that Protoss can deny a Terran expansion while expanding at the same time early on, youron drugs... xD
@SarenS: I wrote that Banshees are an option, cuz they rock against Immo+Sentry+zealot combo and no, I'm not low Gold or Silver, I'm currently first in my Plat division. :=P
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Even if banshee rocks... It's sad if banshee must be a standard opening because it's the only one viable...
+1 with SarenS TvP is an extremely hard match up, especialy late game.
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Here's a replay of banshee working, although it seems extremely cheesy (hiding starports from obs, that won't work for very long):
NarutO v MaNa
Does anyone know the actual range of feedback v EMP? I've heard people say that either one has the longer range.
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@Blasius : Feedback got longer range thats why its pretty hard or almost impossible to EMP a decent protoss with Temps
Now talking about banshees opening agains the early push, I find it not a real viable options since you got too many options for protoss to kill you, 3/4 gates mass stalkers pressure or any early gates pressures and even without that 1gate-> robo with the obs coming when your starports are almost finished (or finished) is enough to quickly adapt against the build and to get the advantage.
1 stargate -> your tech
About FE, OF COURSE i wont FE on Steppes like a dumb player with one siege tank without putting pressure or knowing what my opp is going but tell me how you put pressure so. With mass marines at start ? lol ; Marauders ? they nerfed it and zealot/stalker own it badly now even if you macro well.
And try to stay in one base against a decent Protoss, he wont be idiot and will not suicide his army in your main, he'll stay at your ramp and ForceField when you go out raping your army.
For people telling "try Protoss and see their weakness" I tryed Protoss ofc, trying to play Random to discover races that can help for your skill and protoss is a joke at the moment. Just played some games with P my only loses was in PvP (where i've no clue what units was effective and dont know about BO at all) otherwise it was almost FREEWIN especially vs Terran. Too easy to adapt and 100 supply good mix from Protoss can easely rape 150/160 army from Terran.
So I would say to people especially Protoss players, try out Terran. Feedback about your thought in the MU would be a great thing ! Personnaly I find it the most HARDEST Mu (dont want to say imbalance) and maybe Zerg players got some problems with P too (dunno that much about this MU)
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On April 14 2010 00:48 SarenS wrote:
@Blasius : Feedback got longer range thats why its pretty hard or almost impossible to EMP a decent protoss with Temps
do you know the numbers?
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I would say 1 range more, ghost is around 7 I guess Feedback would be 8.
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On April 14 2010 00:55 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 00:48 SarenS wrote:
@Blasius : Feedback got longer range thats why its pretty hard or almost impossible to EMP a decent protoss with Temps
do you know the numbers?
like serens said plenty of times i had 30-40food army bigger and still lost the battle, terran is supposed to place few emp's on toss army otherwise he would have no chance, P counters it by spreading army (hts particulary ) and feedbacking ghost in advance thx to obs.
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I'm surprised at the underappreciation of banshee tech in TvP. One of the points that is being missed is that massing banshees forces the protoss to commit his gas to units and techs that he really doesn't want a lot of against a terran early on, particularly phoenixes and stalkers. This means that the protoss player will have less immortals and very-delayed colossi. If you supplement your banshee fleet with marines/marauders (mostly marines for obvious reasons), you'll have a mid-game attack force that is surprisingly difficult for the protoss player to deal with, especially if he has committed to robo tech.
Here's the key though: your goal with the banshees isn't necessarily to harass his probe line. Your real goal is to combine your ground and air forces and destroy his army. This will put the protoss on the defensive so that you can either expand or, if things go really well, kill the protoss outright.
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Posted this in another thread but realized that this is where it should be
There's such a thin line between balanced and not balanced.
Before the patch a protoss would end up behind with arguably the most common openings - marauder FE and fast robotics. Now that terran doesn't have map control early on the protoss can push out earlier and scout the FE before observers. Imo FE used to work due to early map control - as a protoss it was a gamble to move out early while now I can pressure the terran and know for sure if he's expanding.
I think the amount of shields on the immortal should be reduced. The reason I want this specific nerf is that if you nerf anything else it will still be all about EMP, hit or miss, win or lose.
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On April 14 2010 01:04 Gigaudas wrote:Posted this in another thread but realized that this is where it should be There's such a thin line between balanced and not balanced
Good thing it's not up to us to decide where that fine line is. It's up to us to figure out how to win in the current state of the game. I see too much crying, and not enough people throwing out ideas.
This is NOT where your post should be. This is a thread about holding off the early immortal push. Not about your opinion on balance.
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I already wrote it in the other post but 2 port banshee into siege FE (because he'll make stalker to counter that for sure) into mass rine/banshee/tanks work pretty well for me. Immortals are not a threat like this. P won't make a lot of them, or they'll die almost instantly against your banshees while tanks destroy his stalkers.
I haven't faced a toss who used blink stalkers against that composition yet, but I usually steamroll stalker/immortal/zealot army with that composition. Siege tank are out of immortals range so they aren't 3 shooted ^^.
I can provide some rep if you want (i'm in platinium league now) but I don't think it'll help that much because I'm not very good. I haven't lost against gold/mid platinium player with that strategy yet.
It looks like the safest way to play atm because FE is suicide and 3 raxs +1 ghost bust is pretty much all-in and get countered very easy with colossus. 10 rax and faster are just cheese and not very fun to play.
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On April 14 2010 00:59 SarenS wrote:
I would say 1 range more, ghost is around 7 I guess Feedback would be 8.
Well, I tested it, and EMP has 10 range, and the burst extends almost to 12. Good luck getting feedback off first, considering it's:
a.) single target vs. aoe
b.) ghosts are fast/tiny, templars are slow and wear technicolor dreamrobes
c.) ghosts cloak.
Everyone saying "no good protoss will ever get hit by emp" is full of shit.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 14 2010 01:22 ganil wrote:
I already wrote it in the other post but 2 port banshee into siege FE (because he'll make stalker to counter that for sure) into mass rine/banshee/tanks work pretty well for me. Immortals are not a threat like this. P won't make a lot of them, or they'll die almost instantly against your banshees while tanks destroy his stalkers.
I haven't faced a toss who used blink stalkers against that composition yet, but I usually steamroll stalker/immortal/zealot army with that composition. Siege tank are out of immortals range so they aren't 3 shooted ^^.
I can provide some rep if you want (i'm in platinium league now) but I don't think it'll help that much because I'm not very good. I haven't lost against gold/mid platinium player with that strategy yet.
It looks like the safest way to play atm because FE is suicide and 3 raxs +1 ghost bust is pretty much all-in and get countered very easy with colossus. 10 rax and faster are just cheese and not very fun to play.
That's better, thanks :-p
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On April 14 2010 01:04 2SCV1cup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 00:55 BlasiuS wrote:On April 14 2010 00:48 SarenS wrote:
@Blasius : Feedback got longer range thats why its pretty hard or almost impossible to EMP a decent protoss with Temps
do you know the numbers? like serens said plenty of times i had 30-40food army bigger and still lost the battle, terran is supposed to place few emp's on toss army otherwise he would have no chance, P counters it by spreading army (hts particulary ) and feedbacking ghost in advance thx to obs.
lol? What are you even talking about. It was a simple question ._.
On April 14 2010 01:23 fatduck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 00:59 SarenS wrote:
I would say 1 range more, ghost is around 7 I guess Feedback would be 8. Well, I tested it, and EMP has 10 range, and the burst extends almost to 12. Good luck getting feedback off first, considering it's: a.) single target vs. aoe b.) ghosts are fast/tiny, templars are slow and wear technicolor dreamrobes c.) ghosts cloak. Everyone saying "no good protoss will ever get hit by emp" is full of shit. + Show Spoiler +
cool. What's the range on feedback?
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I already wrote it in the other post but 2 port banshee into siege FE (because he'll make stalker to counter that for sure) into mass rine/banshee/tanks work pretty well for me. Immortals are not a threat like this. P won't make a lot of them, or they'll die almost instantly against your banshees while tanks destroy his stalkers.
I haven't faced a toss who used blink stalkers against that composition yet, but I usually steamroll stalker/immortal/zealot army with that composition. Siege tank are out of immortals range so they aren't 3 shooted ^^.
I can provide some rep if you want (i'm in platinium league now) but I don't think it'll help that much because I'm not very good. I haven't lost against gold/mid platinium player with that strategy yet.
It looks like the safest way to play atm because FE is suicide and 3 raxs +1 ghost bust is pretty much all-in and get countered very easy with colossus. 10 rax and faster are just cheese and not very fun to play.
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On April 14 2010 00:48 SarenS wrote:
For people telling "try Protoss and see their weakness" I tryed Protoss ofc, [...] Too easy to adapt and 100 supply good mix from Protoss can easely rape 150/160 army from Terran.
So I would say to people especially Protoss players, try out Terran. Feedback about your thought in the MU would be a great thing ! Personnaly I find it the most HARDEST Mu (dont want to say imbalance) and maybe Zerg players got some problems with P too (dunno that much about this MU)
I tried terran last patch and went from 40ish plat to the top 25 inside a weekend. So is that what you mean by hardest? I had only one build (marauder mass, occasionally adding marines, and medivacs later) and it rolled over most opponents. If I made ONE research upgrade at the tech lab... i'm in the exact same patch as before, except my thors now build faster and i lol@mutas because of them.
That amount of hyperbole about toss isn't making you sound convincing. If you won't produce a replay of a 100 sup toss army "easily raping," 150+ supply in terran units then i'm calling your bluff. That's an outrageous claim. 150 supply in marauders with stim will give almost any toss army a run for it's money, and that's if they're of equal size. I seriously doubt you took the time to play toss if you still think the race is "free wins."
@the earlier "can't emp because ghost is freedbacked." Research cloak, build a raven, snipe obs (he'll send them in before his army to spot the HT), cloaked ghosts emp un-opposed. And before you start to pitch a fit saying the raven is t3, so is the templar.
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So, I just watched all 3 of those games real quick this morning, and I have some questions.
What was the purpose of the Siege Tanks, 3 times in a row?
Why did you keep trying to expand to your natural when it was obvious you were cornered and not going to be able to plant there?
Why didn't you try Marauders?
I'm just not seeing how lack of Conc Shells at the very start of the game completely broke this matchup. I don't see any attempt by you to try different builds when facing the same attack three times in a row: just Marines and Tanks every single time.
Had you made Marauders and got Conc shells real quick (which can be done before the Immortals arrive), he would have lost a unit every single time he tried to run away, which happened a lot. Its not like he just waltzed in and battered your front door in an instant. It dragged out, and that's where Conc Shells really, really shine.
The multi-barracks bio ball spam should have walked all over that.
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On April 14 2010 01:21 Pelirrojo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 01:04 Gigaudas wrote:Posted this in another thread but realized that this is where it should be There's such a thin line between balanced and not balanced Good thing it's not up to us to decide where that fine line is. It's up to us to figure out how to win in the current state of the game. I see too much crying, and not enough people throwing out ideas. This is NOT where your post should be. This is a thread about holding off the early immortal push. Not about your opinion on balance.
Changing the Immortal is mentioned by the OP. My post was an explanation of why the Immortal should be changed (and why it wasn't the case during the last patch, at least not in regards to PvT) and there were also suggestions about how it should be changed.
How is that not on topic? It even touched the subject of Terran FE which is debated in the thread.
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On April 14 2010 01:22 ganil wrote:
I already wrote it in the other post but 2 port banshee into siege FE (because he'll make stalker to counter that for sure) into mass rine/banshee/tanks work pretty well for me. Immortals are not a threat like this. P won't make a lot of them, or they'll die almost instantly against your banshees while tanks destroy his stalkers.
I haven't faced a toss who used blink stalkers against that composition yet, but I usually steamroll stalker/immortal/zealot army with that composition. Siege tank are out of immortals range so they aren't 3 shooted ^^.
I can provide some rep if you want (i'm in platinium league now) but I don't think it'll help that much because I'm not very good. I haven't lost against gold/mid platinium player with that strategy yet.
It looks like the safest way to play atm because FE is suicide and 3 raxs +1 ghost bust is pretty much all-in and get countered very easy with colossus. 10 rax and faster are just cheese and not very fun to play.
I don't think that blink stalkers would really help the toss. Blink only helps if the toss player is chasing the banshees around while the terran player is using them to harass the toss. As I stated above, the real goal for the terran player is to use the banshees in conjunction with his ground troops to destroy the protoss army. In these standup fights, blink is only marginally helpful.
Also, no race should ever be able to FE in complete safety against any other race in any matchup. If you FE and the other player scouts it early, he should be able to punish you for it. (And yes, I'm saying this as someone who played protoss in SC1 and did FE builds against zerg.)
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Yeah I still don't understand how the concussion shell change somehow managed to tilt the threads from "can't win PvT" to "can't kill immortals". I've asked a few times, but people won't tell me!^^;. It's not even like protoss can easily retreat without concussion shells. Stimpack still gives marauders enough speed for long enough to kill half your army. Except now your other half gets away instead of being slowed =P.
Really the only thing the concussion shell change does in a head-to-head fight is give zealots an extra attack, no? Or it makes it so that you can't kill off all the zealots earlygame by kiting them in circles. Neither of which make any difference if you're standing behind a supply depot wall either.
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@WorkersofTheWorld Im asking myself if you really played Terran just by this sentence:
"@the earlier "can't emp because ghost is freedbacked." Research cloak, build a raven, snipe obs (he'll send them in before his army to spot the HT), cloaked ghosts emp un-opposed. And before you start to pitch a fit saying the raven is t3, so is the templar."
HF with your gaz
Btw if you wanna play PvT me P would be a pleasure to show you what good Protoss could do against a "mass marauders" which isnt that effective as it was now in top lvl plat.
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On April 14 2010 01:39 Feefee wrote:
Yeah I still don't understand how the concussion shell change somehow managed to tilt the threads from "can't win PvT" to "can't kill immortals". I've asked a few times, but people won't tell me!^^;. It's not even like protoss can easily retreat without concussion shells. Stimpack still gives marauders enough speed for long enough to kill half your army. Except now your other half gets away instead of being slowed =P.
Really the only thing the concussion shell change does in a head-to-head fight is give zealots an extra attack, no? Or it makes it so that you can't kill off all the zealots earlygame by kiting them in circles. Neither of which make any difference if you're standing behind a supply depot wall either.
Terran lost map control early game when they lost concussion shells. Losing map control early on meant they couldn't expand as safely. A nerf to the economy and the macro of Terran results in having a harder time to deal with units such as the Immortal.
That's what I think 
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Immortals are too fast. Spawn larva makes zerg unbeatable.
Half man, half bear, half pig. 100% whiner.
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On April 14 2010 01:26 Bibdy wrote:
So, I just watched all 3 of those games real quick this morning, and I have some questions.
What was the purpose of the Siege Tanks, 3 times in a row?
Why did you keep trying to expand to your natural when it was obvious you were cornered and not going to be able to plant there?
Why didn't you try Marauders?
I'm just not seeing how lack of Conc Shells at the very start of the game completely broke this matchup. I don't see any attempt by you to try different builds when facing the same attack three times in a row: just Marines and Tanks every single time.
Had you made Marauders and got Conc shells real quick (which can be done before the Immortals arrive), he would have lost a unit every single time he tried to run away, which happened a lot. Its not like he just waltzed in and battered your front door in an instant. It dragged out, and that's where Conc Shells really, really shine.
The multi-barracks bio ball spam should have walked all over that.
Agreed. And, ironically, terran bio balls do still run over protoss on a regular basis. Not sure how this patch forced every terran to loose his mind, start building siege tanks and fast-expanding without any kind of map control, but the fact this thread has gone on this long without a decent replay is a testament to just how spoon-fed Terran were last patch in TvP.
If you really "just can't win," when the game isn't handed to you from marauder #1, then I think you're going to have a hard time with any race, any match-up, and not just TvP.
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On April 14 2010 01:24 BlasiuS wrote:
cool. What's the range on feedback?
Liquipedia says 9, so I'll trust that. I'd test it but you can't feedback your own units
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On April 14 2010 01:42 SarenS wrote:
Btw if you wanna play PvT me P would be a pleasure to show you what good Protoss could do against a "mass marauders" which isnt that effective as it was now in top lvl plat.
On April 14 2010 01:49 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
the fact this thread has gone on this long without a decent replay is a testament to just how spoon-fed Terran were last patch in TvP.
Here's your chance to give us a good replay to talk about! I would love to see this happen!
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On April 14 2010 01:26 Bibdy wrote:
I'm just not seeing how lack of Conc Shells at the very start of the game completely broke this matchup. I don't see any attempt by you to try different builds when facing the same attack three times in a row: just Marines and Tanks every single time.
It didn't 'break' it, but it DID change it drastically:
On April 13 2010 04:11 BlasiuS wrote:
pre-patch 8 Terran won most of their games against protoss with builds that revolved around marauders starting out with slow:
1. 1 rax marauder FE: this worked because marauders w/slow prevented early harass on your FE. Now that marauders don't start with slow, zealots are WAY stronger v terran in the early game; this build dies to aggressive zealot harass, which will run terran over before shells are finished.
2. fast (proxy) reaper -> marauder: this build worked because reapers forced stalkers, which were then countered by marauders, which could be made immediately after 2-3 reapers, and since they started with slow, they beat stalkers very easily. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build is unable to put any follow-up pressure after the reapers. Before shells are researched, Stalkers > Marauders in small numbers.
3. fast (proxy) marauder: this relied on marauders hitting protoss before immortals came out. It worked because marauders w/slow > stalkers or zealots that early in the game. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build doesn't work for the same reason 1 rax marauder FE doesn't work: you get run over by zealots or zealot/sentry before your shells can benefit you.
None of these 3 builds work anymore, because marauders don't start with slow. You don't seem to recognize that it was a BIG change. Terran was hardest hit on build #1, now terran is struggling to find a build that they can FE with. From what I've seen, MoRRoW has the best FE build, with 1 rax marines -> FE -> MASS shield marines + at least 4 bunkers, and pray toss doesn't attack you before your shield upgrade is done. Even then, zealot/sentry just rapes, force field prevents SCVs from repairing bunkers, and guardian shield basically hard-counters marines.
Essentially, the main builds that Terran used in TvP don't work in patch 8, and Terrans are having to completely re-learn the matchup from scratch.
Not that that's a bad thing, I have no problem with being forced to re-learn a matchup in the name of balance. But many people seem to be confused as to why Terrans are having problems after concussive shells moved to an upgrade. Well, this is why.
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On April 14 2010 01:43 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 01:39 Feefee wrote:
Yeah I still don't understand how the concussion shell change somehow managed to tilt the threads from "can't win PvT" to "can't kill immortals". I've asked a few times, but people won't tell me!^^;. It's not even like protoss can easily retreat without concussion shells. Stimpack still gives marauders enough speed for long enough to kill half your army. Except now your other half gets away instead of being slowed =P.
Really the only thing the concussion shell change does in a head-to-head fight is give zealots an extra attack, no? Or it makes it so that you can't kill off all the zealots earlygame by kiting them in circles. Neither of which make any difference if you're standing behind a supply depot wall either. Terran lost map control early game when they lost concussion shells. Losing map control early on meant they couldn't expand as safely. A nerf to the economy and the macro of Terran results in having a harder time to deal with units such as the Immortal. That's what I think
Except no terran I know expanded before the protoss got out robo tech. At least no terran had to or did it standard. I agree you lose "map control" against the early 3 zealots ^^;. As soon as you get a sizeable marauder force out, and especially once you get a ghost out you have all the map control, concussion shells or not.
I wonder if people are trying to tell me that the terran has no map control (can't expand) all the while the protoss is expanding? Because you can roll over a toss even more if he's expanding off of a few zealots, or maybe one immortal. And if you're saying you can't expand against a protoss who's not expanding then... well..^^; (in fact you can if you start your cc in your base). Still baffled how concussion shells supposedly make or break this matchup =P
And ok: it broke 1rax fast expand, and two proxy cheeses that were almost impossible for the protoss to defend (which is exactly why that concussion upgrade was put in place). In fact, even a 1 rax fast expand is pretty damn broken^^; you don't see 1 gate fast expand being viable as toss either.
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On April 14 2010 02:08 Feefee wrote:
Except no terran I know expanded before the protoss got out robo tech. At least no terran had to or did it standard.
Yes they did, and yes it was standard. before patch 8 1 rax marauder FE was THE standard for TvP.
On April 14 2010 02:08 Feefee wrote:
I agree you lose "map control" against the early 3 zealots ^^;. As soon as you get a sizeable marauder force out, and especially once you get a ghost out you have all the map control, concussion shells or not.
I wonder if people are trying to tell me that the terran has no map control (can't expand) all the while the protoss is expanding? Because you can roll over a toss even more if he's expanding off of a few zealots, or maybe one immortal. And if you're saying you can't expand against a protoss who's not expanding then... well..^^; (in fact you can if you start your cc in your base). Still baffled how concussion shells supposedly make or break this matchup =P
And ok: it broke 1rax fast expand, and two proxy cheeses that were almost impossible for the protoss to defend (which is exactly why that concussion upgrade was put in place). In fact, even a 1 rax fast expand is pretty damn broken^^; you don't see 1 gate fast expand being viable as toss either.
The difference is that 1 gate FE has NEVER been standard, but 1 rax marauder FE was standard before patch 8. Terran can't do their standard TvP build anymore, that's why so many are complaining, however unfounded it may be.
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Protoss now has no fear of being killed by early marauders now in the sense that if they don't have a larger army they lose. It's still a threat but since you can actually pull back from an engagement you're losing you can have less units and still hold fine. This means you can go very fast robotics and be safe. Immortal pushes force terran to chill back in his base, which is fine, but now terran has 3 options all of which play to a losing game:
-Spam marauders/ghost and try to break out with sheer force - loses to immortal drops because you have no anti air at all, so you get stuck in your base even longer than you should, and god forbid he uses sentries to FF your ramp/choke infinitely. You can't outrange those FFs so you're stuck until he lets you out or you get tanks/air.
-Go tanks/ghosts/marines/turrets. This is what I've been trying to do because I think it's the most viable composition. The problem is that it takes so long to get this up and running and you're STILL stuck in your main for really long time. Protoss can simply expand and outmacro and you're playing a losing game.
-Go banshees/fast drops. More likely than not protoss will blow through your front unless you have something like 4 bunkers there, in which case any good protoss will go straight to drops. If you ever manage to get banshees out, they won't be a surprise, and they won't be able to do anything but sit around defending. Meanwhile protoss can just expand/make stalker/make obs and you'll be outmacro'd. I think it might be possible to make this work, but I want to see a lot of replays before even considering it a viable option. As of now I haven't seen anything to contradict that it is in fact a losing game.
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On April 14 2010 02:16 BlasiuS wrote:
The difference is that 1 gate FE has NEVER been standard, but 1 rax marauder FE was standard before patch 8. Terran can't do their standard TvP build anymore, that's why so many are complaining, however unfounded it may be.
This pretty much sums it up. These forums were full of whiners after the warp gate research time got doubled, because 3 warpgate rush was standard and incredible powerful, and was completely eliminated by the patch. Now the standard terran opening got eliminated and the forums are full of whiners again and toss has "too many options." Eventually people will get tired of complaining and adapt (or the next patch will spark off a new complaining fad).
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So do the new forum rules mean this should be closed? Does not fit the requirements. Or was that only for the general SC2 forum?
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On April 14 2010 02:34 Mohdoo wrote:
So do the new forum rules mean this should be closed? Does not fit the requirements. Or was that only for the general SC2 forum?
this is a quality thread
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On April 14 2010 02:26 Floophead_III wrote:
Protoss now has no fear of being killed by early marauders now in the sense that if they don't have a larger army they lose. It's still a threat but since you can actually pull back from an engagement you're losing you can have less units and still hold fine. This means you can go very fast robotics and be safe. Immortal pushes force terran to chill back in his base, which is fine, but now terran has 3 options all of which play to a losing game:
-Spam marauders/ghost and try to break out with sheer force - loses to immortal drops because you have no anti air at all, so you get stuck in your base even longer than you should, and god forbid he uses sentries to FF your ramp/choke infinitely. You can't outrange those FFs so you're stuck until he lets you out or you get tanks/air.
-Go tanks/ghosts/marines/turrets. This is what I've been trying to do because I think it's the most viable composition. The problem is that it takes so long to get this up and running and you're STILL stuck in your main for really long time. Protoss can simply expand and outmacro and you're playing a losing game.
-Go banshees/fast drops. More likely than not protoss will blow through your front unless you have something like 4 bunkers there, in which case any good protoss will go straight to drops. If you ever manage to get banshees out, they won't be a surprise, and they won't be able to do anything but sit around defending. Meanwhile protoss can just expand/make stalker/make obs and you'll be outmacro'd. I think it might be possible to make this work, but I want to see a lot of replays before even considering it a viable option. As of now I haven't seen anything to contradict that it is in fact a losing game.
Everyone says "go banshees" to the zealot/sentry/immortal ball which I don't really understand - as you say banshees are unlikely to surprise the toss player if he has you pinned in your base. Why not reactor-port and vacs/vikings to support M&M? If you can get to the midgame, stim marauders with vacs are more effective against immortals than you're willing to admit, and the typical sentry/stalker count isn't going to stop vikes from killing colossi (or will cause him to spam sentry/stalker instead of immo which is a win for you I think). Immortals are pretty slow, and if he's greedy with expos you can punish him with medevacs.
I'm guessing the response is going to be "well I can't get to the midgame idiot immortals own all toss will have 4 bases etc", but I figured I'd try anyway.
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Why do terrans feel like they must surprise the protoss player with the banshees? Just straight up mass them with marines and force the protoss player to delay his AoE tech, lower his immortal count, and get a bunch of a stalkers/phoenixes. My impression has been that marines and banshees stack up very well against an army that is stalker and sentry heavy. Am I wrong?
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As a terran player- toss is not the hardest matchup, terran is. Immortals do NOT need to be nerfed, and terrans need to learn a little bit about defense. PF fast expo is about the best strat to use against a P going immortal push, because you will have your PF and a tonfuck of marines / marauders to defend yourself. With scvs to repair the PF, unless the P has like 5+ immortals, hes not cracking the thing. BOOM! now youve made it to midgame with an expo up, and you can macro out and not worry about cheese!
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On April 14 2010 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
Why do terrans feel like they must surprise the protoss player with the banshees? Just straight up mass them with marines and force the protoss player to delay his AoE tech, lower his immortal count, and get a bunch of a stalkers/phoenixes. My impression has been that marines and banshees stack up very well against an army that is stalker and sentry heavy. Am I wrong?
I haven't had much success with using Phoenixes as a counter to mass Banshees. Even if you win the fight, you can't really punish a guy for it immediately afterwards. HTs are generally more successful. Feedback is a huge threat to Banshees (or Psi Storm if they stealth and you have no Observer handy at the time), and you have a decent answer to the Bioball at the same time without having to tech to Collossi.
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Has anyone tried fast teching the concussive upgrade & not die?
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On April 14 2010 02:59 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
Why do terrans feel like they must surprise the protoss player with the banshees? Just straight up mass them with marines and force the protoss player to delay his AoE tech, lower his immortal count, and get a bunch of a stalkers/phoenixes. My impression has been that marines and banshees stack up very well against an army that is stalker and sentry heavy. Am I wrong? I haven't had much success with using Phoenixes as a counter to mass Banshees. Even if you win the fight, you can't really punish a guy for it immediately afterwards. HTs are generally more successful. Feedback is a huge threat to Banshees (or Psi Storm if they stealth and you have no Observer handy at the time), and you have a decent answer to the Bioball at the same time without having to tech to Collossi.
One advantage of phoenixes is that they are super fast, so they're better at shutting down banshee harass than templars (until amulet and warp-in storm). They're light armor too so they don't take bonus dmg from vikings. Otherwise the stargate is only marginally useful, though (graviton beam on siege tanks is a neat trick but that's about it), and phoenix doesn't even counter medevac that well (~20 hits to kill), so templars are much more versatile.
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On April 12 2010 21:55 dNo_O wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. qft if going mech doesn't work. don't do it... you wouldn't ever +1 speedlot against a terran in sc1 would you?
Chalrenge did a speedlot timing attack in PvT once on Colosseum that won him a game in a pro match. And you're completley missing the point that so much Terran strategy is limited because of a unit, it's absolutely retarded. There's no reason units such as the siege tank should be so severely limited in a matchup. It's not even a "specialty" caster unit, it's a core unit in the Terran arsenal. Not being able to use Siege Tanks/Thors effectively... you're effectively killing factory tech... completely. I have massive problems with the Immortal, more so than Roach/Marauder, and I'm a Zerg player that NEVER goes roach tech vs protoss (I haven't gone roach tech vs toss in a single game since Beta started because I hated their concept).
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Like lot of ppl, since last pacth i definitely think its good to go meca vs protoss. Then i tried some 1fac expand, as a BW player that i am ^^ It is obvious that immortals are a real problem in early game, but i think we can deal with it.
Firstable its good to say that when u 1fac expand there is basically 3 big threats in early games:
- Early immoratls push with few zealots, sentries or stalkers.
- 2 immortals drop and harras with maybe some warping in main.
- Fast void ray rush who can be really annoying, especially since last patch with Void rays buffed.
Two of these big threats involve air units (warp prism and VR). Theres no way to make a starport, so i think its good to make an early Thor.
Im not very good in numbers but i think its okay to say that thors are better against immortals than tanks.
So, the idea is too make an early thor to hold those 3 early game threats.
Then i tried some adjustments to get a build as viable as possible.
It looks like that:
- I make barrack right after supply instaed of making a scv and then the barrack.
- Orbital right after barrack
- Factory around 14 pop
- 2nd supply
- Lab tech on barrack
- 2nd gaz
- 1 reaper
- Lab tech on factory
- 1 tank
- Supply
- Harass probes and scout with reaper. Try to keep him alive, he creates a threat and may delay a bit the protoss push
- Siege mode, second tank, supply and armory right when u got 100 gaz (around 27 pop)
- 1 marauder + 1 bunker
- 1 thor + supply + 2nd marauder to fill bunker
At this stage u got 2 siege tanks, 1 bunker with 2 marauders in it and a thor half done. Its important to siege tanks out of range of immortals. Its maybe the only advantage tanks have on immortals, so we got to use it ^^
- Make 2nd CC in ure main (around 40 pop)
- 3rd tank and +1 ground attack in armory
- 2nd factory
When immos push coming u should be able to hold it, using tanks range advantage and targettiing immoratls, using super canon ability of thor on immortals and scv auto repair mode on ure thor.
After this crucial point, i like to add factories with reactor to make helions and continuing upgrading ground. U can eventually make a 2nd thor if necessary, but i prefer a lot of tanks. i also make helions upgrade quiet early.
In midd game, since ure pumping a lot of helions out of 3 or 4 facto reactor, ure gaz increases, its time to make starport with labtech and making ravens until the end of the game.
I really do like ravens and their ground/air turrets abitlity cause its allow u to harrass and have good map vision with helions AND ravens, without doing some risky move with ure heavy tanks army (u just turtle and secure expansions). Its really a big deal cause u can hit several points at the same time with those 2 high mobility units (ravens are slow but they fly !).
Well i dont say this build is the utltimate one in TvP, it certainly needs some adjustments, im just trying to add a stone to the TvP building ^^
Well thanks a lot for reading and sorry for my approximative english.
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As a protoss this matchup didn't really change since the last patch except the fact that you're not gonna be killed by the first 2 terran marauders but will most likely to have to defend a 1-2reaper harass, if the t does a 10 rax you'll lose 1-3 probes and will be forced to cut off probes, while the terran will rely on MULE and can switch to heavy marauder ground or tech to get some more harass forces(hellion banshee).
The first days after the patch those terran that 1rax FE lost a lot, yeah and I really hope that you can punish someone going FE before pressuring or showing any army forces to keep the protoss at bay.
Before 2 days ago I was winning a lot more than last patch, but now plat terrans seems to have adapted.
The immortal/gateway push can be blocked pretty decently by a 2rax marauders-ghosts, I agree that the immortal counter the marauder when they have no upgrade, at the moment the marauder get stimpack and are in decent numbers they can fare against the immortals equally, but the really turning point is when the terran get some ghost to EMP, a protoss immortal ground forces get destroyed by a similar ressource level terran stimpacked marauder if he doesn't forget to EMP the immortals and the max of stalkers/sentry possible.
The firerate of stimpacked marauder are really too much too handle and with a 2rax build you'll be able to expand fairly early and be able to compete with the P army with your upgrades, an EMPED immortal is a dead immortal.
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I just have a little question. Before patch 8 we had tons of prottosses complaining about the marauders being overpowered. Now when terran players complaining about immortals they concidered as whiny.
Most of the people here mentioning the emp as the magic cure, But i don't think that good spell casting from the terran is equivalent to the A-Move that protoss players need to do with the Zeals-immortals-sentry-stalkers army (with the easy to use guardian shiels)
It is possible to win toss, but the real question is if two same level players t and p are winning 50% each. Blizzard got the statistics to anwser this question - but i'm personally lose much more TVP then any other MU, and by reading here i'm convinced i'm not the only one.
I hope that @ patch 9 the immortal will be nerfed and make my beloved mech army playable again.
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On April 14 2010 03:57 Iblis wrote:
As a protoss this matchup didn't really change since the last patch except the fact that you're not gonna be killed by the first 2 terran marauders but will most likely to have to defend a 1-2reaper harass, if the t does a 10 rax you'll lose 1-3 probes and will be forced to cut off probes, while the terran will rely on MULE and can switch to heavy marauder ground or tech to get some more harass forces(hellion banshee).
The first days after the patch those terran that 1rax FE lost a lot, yeah and I really hope that you can punish someone going FE before pressuring or showing any army forces to keep the protoss at bay.
Before 2 days ago I was winning a lot more than last patch, but now plat terrans seems to have adapted.
The immortal/gateway push can be blocked pretty decently by a 2rax marauders-ghosts, I agree that the immortal counter the marauder when they have no upgrade, at the moment the marauder get stimpack and are in decent numbers they can fare against the immortals equally, but the really turning point is when the terran get some ghost to EMP, a protoss immortal ground forces get destroyed by a similar ressource level terran stimpacked marauder if he doesn't forget to EMP the immortals and the max of stalkers/sentry possible.
The firerate of stimpacked marauder are really too much too handle and with a 2rax build you'll be able to expand fairly early and be able to compete with the P army with your upgrades, an EMPED immortal is a dead immortal.
Exactly what I've seen aswell. The terran who still play like their first marauder is a license to expand are of-course going to get a wake-up call, but the majority of plat terran seem to have figured out this playstyle just wont' cut it anymore. It's no longer as simple as containment from square one. Does this mean the terran is just screwed? Far from it.
As we've continuously mentioned, marauder still make a much more efficient unit than immortals after stim. Concussive shells is far from expensive or hard to reach tech-wise. Thor's 250mm cannon melting an immortal is something that way too many terran are still overlooking or hand-waiving away as "mech that doesn't work."
We've seen a few terran claim to have a workable mech build vs. P, a lot of toss who still obviously have to deal with strong standard 2-rax marauder into gost, and a few whiney T who would rather state that "immortal > *" than discuss options.
TvP is a very hard MU, for both sides.
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On April 14 2010 04:14 Silent_Tao wrote:
I hope that @ patch 9 the immortal will be nerfed and make my beloved mech army playable again.
Just out of curiosity, depending upon the severity of the nerf, what should protoss players use to counter mech?
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As we've continuously mentioned, marauder still make a much more efficient unit than immortals after stim. Concussive shells is far from expensive or hard to reach tech-wise. Thor's 250mm cannon melting an immortal is something that way too many terran are still overlooking or hand-waiving away as "mech that doesn't work."
250 mm is totaly useless vs immortal kind of things, if you just emp them and use standard fire mode it works way better.
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people seriously, STOP posting shit that has been posted 100 times and then been NEGATED. you ARENT reading at all. this is becoming ridiculous, stop taking everything off topic.
this isnt about scans, this isnt about what strat to go vs toss, this isnt about if we should Fast expand or not.
this is about top terran players playing top protoss players, and the possible imbalances that we are seeing. please stop taking this out of context and throwing in random ass variables that are irrelevant.
this isnt even about the patch, i dont give a crap about having to upgrade concussive, its not a big deal. its about how the protoss vs terran strategy has become played enough to know how to exploit terrans weaknesses.
#1) forcefield abuse. - containment/control of fights, making fighting in non open areas suicidal.
#2)warp prism immortal drops - containment these guys RIP apart suppy depots like no other. you CANNOT leave your base until you have some kind of defense, none of which are affordable on 1 base.
#3)warp gates - once you have been contained, its like they have 4 gateways sitting outside @ your nat or just outside your nat. making their push the strongest in the game. also they can just instantly warp in more sentries you keep FF @ ur ramp containing you. or waiting for you to come down and split your army in half.
#4)being forced to spend a great deal into upgrades while protoss spends only 50/50 on warp gate research. this drastically reduces terrans unit count, sure EMP is great, so is stim, but when u have 5 less marauders + change it can work against you. 1 emp vs a good toss player wont hit much.
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What we've discovered is that you can't even peek outside your natural with any build. 2-3 rax maraghost gets contained by immortal drops and later force fields. Factory play gets contained because you can't siege your tanks outside your ledge or immortals will run in and snipe them without taking enough damage to make it cost ineffective. (Dragoons in BW COULD do it but often would take heavier losses than terran). Starport play puts you on the defensive automatically to the point where you have to use your banshees perfectly just to survive. Even if you can turtle up and use banshees you're at best going to be 1 base vs 1 base if you deny his expos which is still not a real game. You also never will be able to outproduce a toss who goes stalkers with some obs with pure banshees.
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On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote:
people seriously, STOP posting shit that has been posted 100 times and then been NEGATED. you ARENT reading at all. this is becoming ridiculous, stop taking everything off topic.
this isnt about scans, this isnt about what strat to go vs toss, this isnt about if we should Fast expand or not.
this is about top terran players playing top protoss players, and the possible imbalances that we are seeing. please stop taking this out of context and throwing in random ass variables that are irrelevant.
this isnt even about the patch, i dont give a crap about having to upgrade concussive, its not a big deal. its about how the protoss vs terran strategy has become played enough to know how to exploit terrans weaknesses.
#1) forcefield abuse. - containment/control of fights, making fighting in non open areas suicidal.
block the ramp. check
#2)warp prism immortal drops - containment these guys RIP apart suppy depots like no other. you CANNOT leave your base until you have some kind of defense, none of which are affordable on 1 base.
build early starport. check.
#3)warp gates - once you have been contained, its like they have 4 gateways sitting outside @ your nat or just outside your nat. making their push the strongest in the game. also they can just instantly warp in more sentries you keep FF @ ur ramp containing you. or waiting for you to come down and split your army in half.
stay on 1 base until like 60+ supply. check.
#4)being forced to spend a great deal into upgrades while protoss spends only 50/50 on warp gate research. this drastically reduces terrans unit count, sure EMP is great, so is stim, but when u have 5 less marauders + change it can work against you. 1 emp vs a good toss player wont hit much.
forget ghosts and focus on marauders/hellions. check.
i'm trying another rough build TvP. it involves banshees/hellion into marauder/hellion/medivac.
ramp block play
15 orbital standard lol
build some marines (1-2)
build fact
build some marines
build 2nd gas
build fact techlab
build port
build 1-2 banshees and harass (force defense) eg. stalkers / non-pure zealot army
build hellions
research igniter
continue building marines
build 2 more rax into marauders
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when you have quite a few marauders/hellions push out and build an expo
keep your hellions around for map control and run-by opportunities, keep banshees alive for sniping whatever
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requires a lot of multitasking but it helps block / delay usual 3-4 immortal timing pushes, and helps you counter mass zealot unit compositions by forcing stalkers built
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goal is to keep the protoss from focusing on his timing attack while you macro-up some anti units and not fall too far behind in economy
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a 1 immortal push probably destroys this but you should see it as your banshee's get to his base and/or scv is there, and build 2 bunkers and fill them with the marines you've been macro'ing
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to threehundred...
so your saying we should go upgraded helions and banshees...?
get out of this thread please. you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. go back to your copper games. theres no where in your build to upgrade stim/conc and/or get ghost. without those you wont stand a chance. hellions require luck or certain maps such as kulas/blistering (think backdoors) which are hard to break open without being scouted. any other map toss will just FF ramp and your entire strat has been nullified. not to mention toss can just warp in stalkers @ home
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Sure, tell anyone who posts something other than "yes, I agree, Terran is so broken, qqq," to get out of the thread.
If that's the attitude here, the thread needs to be locked, it's not longer a place for discussion.
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On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote:
#1) forcefield abuse. - containment/control of fights, making fighting in non open areas suicidal.
Abuse? Isn't every thing you listed kinda the point of the spell? Is there some other function of forcefield that you think it was intended for, and that containment and positioning control is just some weird fluke? What is your point? Remove forcefield?
On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote:
#2)warp prism immortal drops - containment these guys RIP apart suppy depots like no other. you CANNOT leave your base until you have some kind of defense, none of which are affordable on 1 base.
Not affordable? Marines? They do very well against Immortals. Takes 3 Immortal shots to kill a marine, and cost wise marines are a good idea vs Immortal harass. You can economically defend Immortal drops with well micro'ed marines. Keep in mind that you aren't as weak at your natural as you'd think, because those 2 Immortals in the warp prism are not going to be knocking on your door. You can have all your marauders and whatnot up front while a group of marines chases around the warp prism. Not to mention that you have the possibility of killing the warp prism with the marines as opposed to Marauders.
On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote:
#3)warp gates - once you have been contained, its like they have 4 gateways sitting outside @ your nat or just outside your nat. making their push the strongest in the game. also they can just instantly warp in more sentries you keep FF @ ur ramp containing you. or waiting for you to come down and split your army in half.
If they are keeping their entire in front of your base, they probably don't have much at their main. You can do some dropping of your own. Even the threat of drops will force the Protoss to have some sort of units away from your base or else lose a bunch of probes. Any time that he is pushing your base, you have a much easier time using EMP. Any time a Protoss is pushing you, you have great opportunities for nice clumped Protoss armies for optimal EMP. Immortals are plain and simply not a problem with EMP. If you aren't using EMP, you're not properly countering his army, and you deserve to lose. Its like not making Marauders against roaches.
On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote:
#4)being forced to spend a great deal into upgrades while protoss spends only 50/50 on warp gate research. this drastically reduces terrans unit count, sure EMP is great, so is stim, but when u have 5 less marauders + change it can work against you. 1 emp vs a good toss player wont hit much.
You aren't thinking of this properly. Are you talking about just marine and marauder against zealot/sentry/stalker/immortal? If so, getting a core and getting tech labs are fairly equivalent. Then in order to even get an Immortal, you need the Robotics Bay, which is 200/100. Sure you spend more on upgrades, but the Protoss has an extra building to make. And the differences there are small enough to not really matter. The difference is that EMP is a direct counter to Immortals, just as HT are commonly used to counter the Ghosts. At the point of the game that you have EMP but the Protoss does not have Feedback, you have spent more money, but you have a more well rounded army. Especially with your main argument being the idea of Protoss containing you, where if a Protoss is to attack, they'll be extra weak to EMP, it doesn't really make sense. Pushing just about any natural expo will require some level of clumping of units by the aggressor. Use that to your advantage with EMP. It may be their attempt to push that loses them the game because of EMP.
What it sounds like to me, is that you are perhaps not using EMP well enough and not using marines well enough. I think that a combination of both of those things will help your game a lot. Hope this helps, Best of luck!
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(edit to add credibility before the terran fools like the one below me complains about "whipping out his 1400 platinum dick" *rofl*, im 1450+ platinum, not great but enough to comment.)
I watched the replays finally.. and WOW.. Do you honestly believe that strat you did all 3 games SHOULD work vs Immortal push? Immortals were made.. TO COUNTER TANKS!. I just dont understand how you are asking for help here, when you did the same shitty strat that the toss's strat directly counters everygame.
I wish every Terran I played in platinum did marine/tank like you! I'd be like 50-0 vs Terran, as opposed to like 2-50.
Quick tip. Get marauders first, and do a counter push.. Three marauders can take out any stalker/immortals the toss will have in the first 5 mins, and if you just keep pushing him back and lowering his numbers, eventually your marauder/ghost/medivac will own everything he has until zeal speed.. Even if he has 10 immortals, marauders and ghosts make short work of it. Im finding every game I have vs a good terran, I need to rush to zeal speed ASAP or I get run over by pure marauder, ESP if I do the prism drop harassing, because that leaves me with little units to defend his counter push, which vs marauders you need every single unit to be able to hold it off.
The slow from marauders was the least of its issues imo from last patch. They need a major stat nerf, either price go up or damage/HP go down, they still take out every ground unit in the game.. I just lost a game where I was way ahead in economy, had 4 collosus and mass immortal/stalker and he had pure marauder/ghost and he raped me easy. It didnt make sense, collosus just got total owned by marauders, like every other ground unit.
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On April 14 2010 05:02 PhiliBiRD wrote:
to threehundred...
so your saying we should go upgraded helions and banshees...?
get out of this thread please. you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. go back to your copper games. theres no where in your build to upgrade stim/conc and/or get ghost. without those you wont stand a chance. hellions require luck or certain maps such as kulas/blistering (think backdoors) which are hard to break open without being scouted. any other map toss will just FF ramp and your entire strat has been nullified. not to mention toss can just warp in stalkers @ home
lolz. so what are you talking about? i've been demolished by 3-4 immortal pushes all day long and i'm trying out new builds that either delay it or block it completely.
do i need to whip out my platinum 1400 rank 10~ dick or something? the goal is to 1) banshee's come before immortals 2) marauders kill stalkers when he's ready to a-move into your base, marines kill immortals (in bunkers in a defensive position if he attacks at the time of your push) and 3) hellions toast zealot/sentry heavy openings if he's expecting to go for forcefield abuse play.
do you want me to post a concise build order for when to get concussive grenade/stim/upgrades when i was only rough posting what i do to break a standard immortal push play.
the fact that he HAS to warp stalkers is a good thing as it makes your unit counter building even easier instead of him getting 5 immortals he'll probably have 3, and he still can't leave his ramp unguarded if you have a lone hellion or 2 running around.
the goal again is to deter his aggression with 'guerrilla tactics'.
i've played pre-reactor nerfed/pre concussive shot nerfed 2rax/3rax marauder timing pushes since the start of the patch and it was hella boring winning because i simply had to dance back and forth when i had my first 2-3 marauders out with some marines/scvs to take out his units and rally my own to his base.
i've also tried going for siege first which is garbage for sure vs blink play and simple immortal macro.
so this is the the next best thing for me that i feel works.
what should we all do? 2rax ghost? 3 rax marauder aggression? calm the fuck down.
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lol @ 1400 rating, like that makes u good right? haha.
and @ mohdo, your counter arguments are all too "you can try this". against what is truly practical. except for marines vs the drops but how many marines are you going to leave in your base? you need at least 6-8 to fend off an immortal push. and if u attack toss can just fly them right back on over to his base to defend. where as ur marines are stuck @ home. what it takes for terran to do drops is alot more of an investment than protoss, which only invests 200 minerals vs 400 min/300 gas. granted our transpo heals.
continuing to argue about this is getting no where so im done with posting here, unless someone comes up with a good post/idea for Terr. everything that has been suggested is a given and answers/fixes nothing.
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it's sad then that posting privileges are given to people like me QQ
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On April 14 2010 06:03 PhiliBiRD wrote:
lol @ 1400 rating, like that makes u good right? haha.
and @ mohdo, your counter arguments are all too "you can try this". against what is truly practical. except for marines vs the drops but how many marines are you going to leave in your base? you need at least 6-8 to fend off an immortal push. and if u attack toss can just fly them right back on over to his base to defend. where as ur marines are stuck @ home. what it takes for terran to do drops is alot more of an investment than protoss, which only invests 200 minerals vs 400 min/300 gas. granted our transpo heals.
continuing to argue about this is getting no where so im done with posting here, unless someone comes up with a good post/idea for Terr. everything that has been suggested is a given and answers/fixes nothing.
hey stop being a jerk. threehundred is making quality posts and you're doing nothing but bashing him.
its beta. noone knows the difference between trying something and whats practical.
1400 is a perfectly respectable rating. you are not king of the world, stop acting like it.
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On April 14 2010 05:43 Skyze wrote:
(edit to add credibility before the terran fools like the one below me complains about "whipping out his 1400 platinum dick" *rofl*, im 1450+ platinum, not great but enough to comment.)
I watched the replays finally.. and WOW.. Do you honestly believe that strat you did all 3 games SHOULD work vs Immortal push? Immortals were made.. TO COUNTER TANKS!. I just dont understand how you are asking for help here, when you did the same shitty strat that the toss's strat directly counters everygame.
I wish every Terran I played in platinum did marine/tank like you! I'd be like 50-0 vs Terran, as opposed to like 2-50.
Quick tip. Get marauders first, and do a counter push.. Three marauders can take out any stalker/immortals the toss will have in the first 5 mins, and if you just keep pushing him back and lowering his numbers, eventually your marauder/ghost/medivac will own everything he has until zeal speed.. Even if he has 10 immortals, marauders and ghosts make short work of it. Im finding every game I have vs a good terran, I need to rush to zeal speed ASAP or I get run over by pure marauder, ESP if I do the prism drop harassing, because that leaves me with little units to defend his counter push, which vs marauders you need every single unit to be able to hold it off.
The slow from marauders was the least of its issues imo from last patch. They need a major stat nerf, either price go up or damage/HP go down, they still take out every ground unit in the game.. I just lost a game where I was way ahead in economy, had 4 collosus and mass immortal/stalker and he had pure marauder/ghost and he raped me easy. It didnt make sense, collosus just got total owned by marauders, like every other ground unit.
Even 3 rax marauder can only break even with correctly played immortal pushes. Add in a prism for drops and you will get dominated if you try to leave your base. Counter attack and FF will block you until his army can beat yours or his prism comes back. Not to mention he could kill your base and just pull probes to help stop your push since probes actually screw over marauders so badly it's hilarious.
I've played through a lot of variations, the reason I posted these replays is because this opening was the only way I could see to be safe vs all protoss builds and still be able to expand. Even with scans I'm still flying pretty blind vs earlygame protoss since you really need that first mule and really the second too otherwise your build will be massively delayed. A good protoss will beat a player going mass marauder in patch 8. No longer do they have to play defense the entire first 10 minutes. It's just a losing game for terran. Fast drops with bunkers MIGHT be able to win a game for you but it's still a big gamble. It's how I've won a lot of TvPs but on maps like DO or scrap protoss should always observer first just because of the long rush distance and he'll know what's up and be able to stop you. Other maps the attack comes before you have the defense and usually doing the drop results in you dying. It just isn't safe play.
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On April 14 2010 06:03 PhiliBiRD wrote:
lol @ 1400 rating, like that makes u good right? haha.
and @ mohdo, your counter arguments are all too "you can try this". against what is truly practical. except for marines vs the drops but how many marines are you going to leave in your base? you need at least 6-8 to fend off an immortal push. and if u attack toss can just fly them right back on over to his base to defend. where as ur marines are stuck @ home. what it takes for terran to do drops is alot more of an investment than protoss, which only invests 200 minerals vs 400 min/300 gas. granted our transpo heals.
continuing to argue about this is getting no where so im done with posting here, unless someone comes up with a good post/idea for Terr. everything that has been suggested is a given and answers/fixes nothing.
I only recommended you try these things because they are things which have been effective against me when I play against Terran.
Immortals each cost 250/100, so using 8 marines to fend off 2 immortals is still economical. Especially considering the Warp Prism is also a part of the drop. You should be trying to have about 4-5 marines per Immortal anyway if you don't have EMP. If he is dropping with 2 Immortals, you should have at least 8 marines already. Any additional Marines at your natural should be there anyway. Your goal is to scale your marines to the Immortals until you have EMP. And who ever said you have to attack during the period of this Immortal drop? You could always expand once you have EMP. It doesn't have to be a matter of either you push him or he pushes you. If you feel like a certain time of your TVP is rough, try to structure the game to go to other times. Having 8 marines running around your base against the Immortal drop does not put you behind. It is an economical counter. And once the drop is ineffective, you can all the while expand. Any other aspect of the push, you should be level. He's got 2 Immortals flying around, you have 8 Marines running around. Neither comes out ahead really. If anything, the Terran comes out ahead because the Marines were needed anyway for the Immortals. It is the Warp Prism that ends up being a waste of money if the harassment isn't successful, as it shouldn't be with proper marine defense. The Marines are needed anyway for the Immortals, it is simply a matter of where you put em. I'd imagine the issue is that you simply don't make the Marines I am describing, which is definitely a big mistake. I'm not trying to argue the balance or lack thereof, because it is very clear from my own as well as tournament replays that the match up is fine. I am simply trying to help you better deal with the Immortals.
To sum up:
1. Make marines and scale marine production with the Protoss Immortal production.
2. Keep a sharp eye on the drop and keep a group of 8 marines to deal with it.
3. Don't be stuck in a 1base mindset. If you can hold your ground, expand. If you feel like 1 base vs 1 base is tough, make it 2v2, its a totally different game at that point.
Cheers
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I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back...
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like i said before any good plat terrans that wanna try out their tvp vs me just msg me on bnet mezmerize.plz - me and PhiliBiRD played some nice games yesterday
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On April 14 2010 06:22 MezmerizePLZ wrote:
like i said before any good plat terrans that wanna try out their tvp vs me just msg me on bnet mezmerize.plz - me and PhiliBiRD played some nice games yesterday
I especially liked the game where you forcefielded his ramp on steppes for about 5 minutes while getting ranged colossi and expanding. He didn't even have a factory started it was so hilarious and broken. I don't think I've ever laughed that hard at a game of SC2.
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On April 14 2010 06:22 Ganondorf wrote:
I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back...
this sounds scary as shit. viking range makes this even easier. wow.
scans would make this pretty expensive over time though right? but I guess it doesnt matter cuz you'll be doing so much damage. its almost a guaranteed nexus snipe o.o
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On April 14 2010 06:27 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 06:22 Ganondorf wrote:
I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back... this sounds scary as shit. viking range makes this even easier. wow.
Mass stalker + obs with blink should completely annihilate that strat. Add a few cannons in your minlines and you should be safe. You can't make that many banshees/vikings off 1 base. I don't think it'd work at all vs high level toss, which is where this problem we're seeing exists anyways. I still win tons of TvP because I'm underranked by a lot, but if I were top 5 plat I'd be losing every game.
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On April 14 2010 06:30 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 06:27 mOnion wrote:On April 14 2010 06:22 Ganondorf wrote:
I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back... this sounds scary as shit. viking range makes this even easier. wow. Mass stalker + obs with blink should completely annihilate that strat. Add a few cannons in your minlines and you should be safe. You can't make that many banshees/vikings off 1 base. I don't think it'd work at all vs high level toss, which is where this problem we're seeing exists anyways. I still win tons of TvP because I'm underranked by a lot, but if I were top 5 plat I'd be losing every game.
Ok discussing the same topic in 2 threads now but oh well we're starcraft players and have multitasking :D
I disagree with mass stalker +obs because the terran will just snipe your obs over and over again and if he's not a total noob he'll do it with minimal to no losses. Cannons i agree with and getting some void rays also, but you need good scouting and a stargate before the robotics, cause you can't build a forge, a robotics and stargates and not be overrun 20 seconds later. I'll have to try it vs high level toss if i get matched vs one but in that case i fear i'll be just outmicroed, so you need a better terran to verify.
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On April 14 2010 06:40 Ganondorf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 06:30 Floophead_III wrote:On April 14 2010 06:27 mOnion wrote:On April 14 2010 06:22 Ganondorf wrote:
I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back... this sounds scary as shit. viking range makes this even easier. wow. Mass stalker + obs with blink should completely annihilate that strat. Add a few cannons in your minlines and you should be safe. You can't make that many banshees/vikings off 1 base. I don't think it'd work at all vs high level toss, which is where this problem we're seeing exists anyways. I still win tons of TvP because I'm underranked by a lot, but if I were top 5 plat I'd be losing every game. Ok discussing the same topic in 2 threads now but oh well we're starcraft players and have multitasking :D I disagree with mass stalker +obs because the terran will just snipe your obs over and over again and if he's not a total noob he'll do it with minimal to no losses. Cannons i agree with and getting some void rays also, but you need good scouting and a stargate before the robotics, cause you can't build a forge, a robotics and stargates and not be overrun 20 seconds later. I'll have to try it vs high level toss if i get matched vs one but in that case i fear i'll be just outmicroed, so you need a better terran to verify.
I'll try it in some games later and if it's successful I'll post replays. If it's not I'll probably get an even better terran to try it because the mechanical skill needed to pull off a build like that is probably quite high.
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Yeah, I played a game against a quick Cloaked Banshee + Viking techer. Lost horribly when he COMSAT the area when my Stalkers/Sentries started firing, and instagibbed my Observer. Couldn't even come up with a better way to counter that, than keeping a bunch of backup Observers on standby and getting something else to deal with the Banshees (Phoenixes/HTs). By the time you get the 2nd, or 3rd Observer into the fight, your entire ground army is going to be a massive crater in the ground. Feedback is quick and decisive and you can obliterate a bunch of them with just a second of detection, while Phoenixes, Stalkers or Sentries require a much longer time investment to bring them down, leaving your Observer incredibly vulnerable.
A Raven isn't a bad idea, either. Forces the Protoss to have to pick apart the Terran's army piece by piece, rather than stand and fight.
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On April 14 2010 06:22 MezmerizePLZ wrote:
like i said before any good plat terrans that wanna try out their tvp vs me just msg me on bnet mezmerize.plz - me and PhiliBiRD played some nice games yesterday
What's your ID? Or just message me. Mente.flouse
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well I must be playing at different hours than you guys then, since everygame above 1400 platinum on US server I play, every terran goes pure marauder or banshee rush, and it always dominates toss hard. I've actually yet to see any terran open with that Marine/tank opening that was platinum, and if they did it was a breeze walking over them.
I dont think immortals/anything toss does needs a nerf, if anything needs a nerf its marauders. I think terrans just need to realize that marauders > immortals, but immortals > tanks (as its intended to be.) so uh, I dunno what to tel you. Get marauders. thats it. They are the best unit in the game by far, and every good terran ive faced above 1500 platinum on US server have always been doing some kinda 3/4 rax marauder push once first 2 ghosts are out.
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On April 14 2010 07:05 Skyze wrote:
well I must be playing at different hours than you guys then, since everygame above 1400 platinum on US server I play, every terran goes pure marauder or banshee rush, and it always dominates toss hard. I've actually yet to see any terran open with that Marine/tank opening that was platinum, and if they did it was a breeze walking over them.
I dont think immortals/anything toss does needs a nerf, if anything needs a nerf its marauders. I think terrans just need to realize that marauders > immortals, but immortals > tanks (as its intended to be.) so uh, I dunno what to tel you. Get marauders. thats it. They are the best unit in the game by far, and every good terran ive faced above 1500 platinum on US server have always been doing some kinda 3/4 rax marauder push once first 2 ghosts are out.
some terrans try different things, i know its hard to believe that someone actually want to try other units then the marauder, but its true.
This is a beta, and a good answer is not "make more marauders" because if that is the only thing you can do, there is clearly a issue with the game
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On April 14 2010 08:01 evotech wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 07:05 Skyze wrote:
well I must be playing at different hours than you guys then, since everygame above 1400 platinum on US server I play, every terran goes pure marauder or banshee rush, and it always dominates toss hard. I've actually yet to see any terran open with that Marine/tank opening that was platinum, and if they did it was a breeze walking over them.
I dont think immortals/anything toss does needs a nerf, if anything needs a nerf its marauders. I think terrans just need to realize that marauders > immortals, but immortals > tanks (as its intended to be.) so uh, I dunno what to tel you. Get marauders. thats it. They are the best unit in the game by far, and every good terran ive faced above 1500 platinum on US server have always been doing some kinda 3/4 rax marauder push once first 2 ghosts are out.
some terrans try different things, i know its hard to believe that someone actually want to try other units then the marauder, but its true. This is a beta, and a good answer is not "make more marauders" because if that is the only thing you can do, there is clearly a issue with the game
Is it okay that "Make Immortals, QUICK!" is the only good option when a Zerg does a Roach rush? Is it okay that "get some godamn AA!" when you see a Terran teching to Banshees is the only good option? You're spouting nonsense. Its not a matter of make more Marauders, its a matter of make SOME Marauders. You can't just build whatever the hell you want and expect to hold back everything through sheer force of awesome.
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I'm just going to prove how mind boggling this matchup has become. I just looked through all the suggestions and I think we've covered everything besides fast BC or something at that level of stupid.
To recap, strategies that have been suggested are:
-Fast thor
-Mass marauder/ghost
-Mass banshee/bio
-Banshee/viking
-Marine/Tank (since that's what I used to start with)
-Drops
-Marauder/Viking
-I think nukes was mentioned at some point?
I think those were all suggested here (possible I might be inserting something I heard from some other source). It has to be clear that there is no one safe, standard play for terran right now. Every single one of these strategies has weaknesses. Ones that do well vs immortal rushes get screwed by simple changes by protoss (colossus or drops). Mass air is the best strategy suggestion I've seen so far but I still feel like it's a horribly uphill battle all game.
I think it's clear that terran right now is stuck in no-man's-land. We can go one strategy but no matter what we commit to, protoss has a way to straight counter it.
Changing the immortal timing/tech/strength would open up a plethora of viable terran options. I don't believe 3 rax marauder pressure would be difficult to deal with since protosses were finding ways to deal with those builds by going 3-4 warpgate mass gateway and having reasonable success. I'm not concerned about mass air because quite frankly immortals don't really play into that style at all except for pressuring early. It will probably be a much safer and more viable opening without immortals blowing through your wall so early.
Something I've noticed: When terran actually manages to get mech going without being massively behind in macro immortals are not too strong. They actually fit quite well into the PvTmech metagame IF the game is already in midgame.
Therefore I think the proper change is just to the timing/tech of the immortal. Perhaps making hardened shields an upgrade on the support bay? Perhaps moving the immortal to its own tech building? Increasing build time in any case is a good idea since they're already building faster than tanks before chrono, and they're more expensive and more food, which is very contradictory.
How will this affect other matchups? I don't think PvP will be broken by not having immortals as early. In fact it might promote mass stalker strategies more which standardizes a very BO-luck based matchup, and ought to bring it to a more interesting metagame.
PvZ will be a little easier for zerg earlygame, though mass gateway builds are still insanely difficult to fight. I don't think it will severely impact protoss's ability to adjust to 1 hatch roach, since stalker/sentry does fine, especially with a wall.
I think from this analysis it's clear we'll see something in patch 9 about immortals.
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How the heck can you ascertain there's something wrong just by the sheer variety of strategies proposed? There's the factor of people throwing in those strats, because you're doing your damndest to shoot everything down and people are just humouring you. "Nut uh. That won't work because blah blah blah", "Well, okay, how about this", "No, that won't work because blah blah blah".
Especially considering you went tanks THREE games in a row, and lost to the same strat THREE games in a row. Have you even tried anything remotely different since then? Can we see replays of those?
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I've just been trying the stalker immortal rush lately in a few games, to get a feel for how strong it is. And my conclusion is that while you may not be able to kill a terran outright with a stalker immortal rush, every single game I was able to contain them and expand (sometimes expand twice). And anytime they "walled" I got to kill two supply depots for free, otherwise they'd be forced to come out and fight me in the open... which they can never do until they get their upgrades.
To me the stalker/immortal rush seems like it is simply too easy to pull off. It requires very little micro and has incredibly powerful results vs terran. If a nerf to the immortal would make the marauder too powerful in PvT, then I suggest nerfing both.
I'm not a protoss player, but I am fully capable of using this simplistic build to platinum potential. I'd like it if any terran players would like to challenge me so I can show just how easy and incredibly effective this is even in the hands of someone relatively new to protoss.
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to everyone saying "all that was changed CG is an upgrade" and all variations of this, its true ! but its not just the game that develops, remember this is a new game (a beta even) and I bealive protosses in general have become much more adept, just an obbservation. ofcourse terrans are also learning also, its not like that one tiny nerf drastically changed the entire MU, but it shined a light on the imbalance when it stopped T from doing the early pressure into early expansion.
P has > T for a long while, but T had the somewhat cheesy maraude pressure (it was queite OP.) that allowed some success.
so to all the copperleaguers saying "stuf and research slow, and its exactly the same as pre-patch8" you are just wrong ! flat out.
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On April 14 2010 08:08 Floophead_III wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm just going to prove how mind boggling this matchup has become. I just looked through all the suggestions and I think we've covered everything besides fast BC or something at that level of stupid.
To recap, strategies that have been suggested are:
-Fast thor
-Mass marauder/ghost
-Mass banshee/bio
-Banshee/viking
-Marine/Tank (since that's what I used to start with)
-Drops
-Marauder/Viking
-I think nukes was mentioned at some point?
I think those were all suggested here (possible I might be inserting something I heard from some other source). It has to be clear that there is no one safe, standard play for terran right now. Every single one of these strategies has weaknesses. Ones that do well vs immortal rushes get screwed by simple changes by protoss (colossus or drops). Mass air is the best strategy suggestion I've seen so far but I still feel like it's a horribly uphill battle all game.
I think it's clear that terran right now is stuck in no-man's-land. We can go one strategy but no matter what we commit to, protoss has a way to straight counter it.
Changing the immortal timing/tech/strength would open up a plethora of viable terran options. I don't believe 3 rax marauder pressure would be difficult to deal with since protosses were finding ways to deal with those builds by going 3-4 warpgate mass gateway and having reasonable success. I'm not concerned about mass air because quite frankly immortals don't really play into that style at all except for pressuring early. It will probably be a much safer and more viable opening without immortals blowing through your wall so early.
Something I've noticed: When terran actually manages to get mech going without being massively behind in macro immortals are not too strong. They actually fit quite well into the PvTmech metagame IF the game is already in midgame.
Therefore I think the proper change is just to the timing/tech of the immortal. Perhaps making hardened shields an upgrade on the support bay? Perhaps moving the immortal to its own tech building? Increasing build time in any case is a good idea since they're already building faster than tanks before chrono, and they're more expensive and more food, which is very contradictory.
How will this affect other matchups? I don't think PvP will be broken by not having immortals as early. In fact it might promote mass stalker strategies more which standardizes a very BO-luck based matchup, and ought to bring it to a more interesting metagame.
PvZ will be a little easier for zerg earlygame, though mass gateway builds are still insanely difficult to fight. I don't think it will severely impact protoss's ability to adjust to 1 hatch roach, since stalker/sentry does fine, especially with a wall.
I think from this analysis it's clear we'll see something in patch 9 about immortals.
I'm kind of confused when you say all Terran strategies have weaknesses. So does every Zerg and Protoss strategy right? That's why play relies so heavily on scouting to choose the appropriate strategy for the situation at hand.
When you say three rax marauder pressure doesn't work because protoss are going 4 warpgate mass gateway to counter.. well then it doesn't sound like immortals are the problem there. Mohdoo and several others have pointed out valid counters to immortals in this thread, whether it be immortal drop harass or immortal pushes.
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Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play.
Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding)
Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar
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Oh this matchup is complete nonsense at the moment, and in my opinion always has been. Literally every build you can think of is cost for cost, less efficient than protoss' counter to it. Protoss can hold you off indefinitely with forcefield and get the perfect army composition to counter you. I'm consistently playing #1~5 ranked platinum players, and on certain map you simply have very, very little hope. I win plenty of games vs highly ranked protoss players, but I attribute those wins solely to a poor understanding of the race they're playing. If they had a better grasp, they should never lose to terran.
It's not just the immortal, although it is a factor in making the matchup the joke that it is, but the way protoss has been designed. Protoss has a superior ground army. $ for $ their army is simply better than yours and easier to use. Moreover, they can warp in whatever units they need, wherever they're needed, in four seconds.
Blink is too good, immortals are too good, feedback is too good, sentries are too good, and warp gates are simply hideously broken. Maps like blistering sands and scrap station only aggravate the problem. It's kind of lulz when you have sieged tanks behind your boulder guarding your second base entry on blistering, and immortals can hit the rock from a position you can't even see. And even if you could, they'd take very little damage before destroying the boulder. Once that boulder goes, you can not win anymore. On scrap station, that giant idiotic ramp makes an immortal push when doing anything other than turtling with marauders a guaranteed gg.
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I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders.
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On April 14 2010 08:42 Ganondorf wrote:
I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders.
That's always the argument used to defend a nerf, and it always fails. If its a problem, and it affects too many games, it will get nerfed. Not nerfing it because it MIGHT break something else isn't enough to leave it as it is.
Its the EXACT same argument used against nerfing the Marauder after all "But, without the early snare, it'll be IMPOSSIBLE to kill Roaches! We'll be broken!".
But, I just don't see the reason in claiming "Victory! Its going to get nerfed! Yay for Terrans!" by Floophead, when he hasn't shown anything but going for early Siege tanks vs Immortals is a bad idea. I'd like to look at the Mez vs Mente games first, but I'm at work
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Honestly I don't see how anyone can say TvP is fine when you look at the other two matchups.... TvZ: You've got a lot of use out of marines, marauders, and dropships. I've seen the thor rush has gotten kind of popular. Ravens are amazing in this match up. Hellion/thor/marauder is a seemingly new strategy on the block that might be effective. Vikings are pretty good if it gets late game and he starts making bro lords. TvT, we see tanks, marines, marauders, vikings, banshees, bcs late game, tons of macro games since it's very hard to push a terran early. Sometimes thors make siege tank line breakers, too.
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders.
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banshee harass gets me every time
suicide vikings into obs and cloakrape the robo bay. what an awesome and complex game.
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On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders.
Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking?
Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321
OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens.
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On April 14 2010 08:08 Floophead_III wrote:
I think it's clear that terran right now is stuck in no-man's-land. We can go one strategy but no matter what we commit to, protoss has a way to straight counter it.
To think, a strategy game that has counters. Would you prefer Terran have a single end all strategy that is easy to understand and Protoss can not deal with?
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On April 14 2010 09:24 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:08 Floophead_III wrote:
I think it's clear that terran right now is stuck in no-man's-land. We can go one strategy but no matter what we commit to, protoss has a way to straight counter it.
To think, a strategy game that has counters. Would you prefer Terran have a single end all strategy that is easy to understand and Protoss can not deal with?
He just misses patch 7. Poor fellah. =*(
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On April 14 2010 09:24 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders. Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking? Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens.
When both players use the same strategy nearly every game yes that is game breaking and boring. This is real time strategy bro, where you actually react to the units your opponent is making.
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On April 14 2010 08:42 Ganondorf wrote:
I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders.
You just hit the nail on the head. I think most people agree that the immortal is designed to counter mech units. So how is it possible that the immortal is also good against marauders? While Colossi and HTs have some serious drawbacks (being hit by air to air, require higher tech etc.) there just is now drawback or mechanic you can abuse to shut down immortals. And we're talking about a unit that directly counters Thors, Tanks and Hellions and is still more than useful against Marauders (and even Marines) how you yourself pointed out. And if you think about it some more you'll come to the conclusion that there is just nothing left for Terrans that is not demolished by immortals (not including air for an obvious reason).
So you're argument that the immortal should NOT be redesigned because protoss would not be able to deal with marauders is plain nonsense. Immortals should not be an untouchable answer to freakin every ground unit a Terran has to offer.
On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar
Watched all of them. Interesting series. I like how you KNOW what's coming and still can't even survive long enough for mid game with like 5 different strategies while mezmerize is either going for drop or 4 gate >.>. That's exactly how I feel when I'm playing vs Protoss. Even if you manage to survive you'll be at an disadvantage. Of course at least 5 different people will now jump on you and point out how bad you are and what mistakes you did here and there while not being able to provide a single replay that proves you wrong in a thread that exists for 15 pages now Keep it up.
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On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Honestly I don't see how anyone can say TvP is fine when you look at the other two matchups.... TvZ: You've got a lot of use out of marines, marauders, and dropships. I've seen the thor rush has gotten kind of popular. Ravens are amazing in this match up. Hellion/thor/marauder is a seemingly new strategy on the block that might be effective. Vikings are pretty good if it gets late game and he starts making bro lords. TvT, we see tanks, marines, marauders, vikings, banshees, bcs late game, tons of macro games since it's very hard to push a terran early. Sometimes thors make siege tank line breakers, too.
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders.
Now you know what the adrenaline rush of PvZ is like. The Zerg basically dictate the flow of the game and you have to pull out all the stops to cover every possible angle, while trying to come up with a decisive hammer-blow that will finish them off, while they just expand their way across the map, ready to react to whatever unit composition you have and run you into the dirt when you make a wrong move.
Any way you look at it, one race, due to the recent strategies of the time, is going to have an early game advantage. It'll probably flip back and forth between them as people discover new builds. Once Protoss come up with a SOLID way of taking out a Zerg FE with a Spine Crawler wall, its going to flip in the other direction (I doubt it, but you never know). Losing the Marauder snare that early, lost Terran that early game advantage and gave it to the Protoss. Now its on the Terrans to come up with a strat to hold back the Immortal push.
So long as you HAVE an answer to the strat, its basically okay, so long as it doesn't cripple you too much in the early-game, transferring into the mid-late game and skew the matchup too far. Problem with the early Marauder snare was there really wasn't an answer to the strat. It was just gradual casualty after casualty for the Protoss, and no guaranteed means of getting any kills in, because of the snare.
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On April 14 2010 09:26 shinosai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:24 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders. Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking? Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens. When both players use the same strategy nearly every game yes that is game breaking and boring. This is real time strategy bro, where you actually react to the units your opponent is making.
Same units almost every game? Are you familiar with Brood War? Matchups are predictable unit-wise. There are options, but you generally know what someone is going to open with, and thus what the other player is going to have to open aswell.
OH THIS IS A RTS? Yea, thanks for letting me know. All the condescending horse-shit aside, you sound like you're more than willing to throw tantrum instead of post replays. Guess that follows the general theme here. Carry on.
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On April 14 2010 09:30 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:42 Ganondorf wrote:
I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders. You just hit the nail on the head. I think most people agree that the immortal is designed to counter mech units. So how is it possible that the immortal is also good against marauders? While Colossi and HTs have some serious drawbacks (being hit by air to air, require higher tech etc.) there just is now drawback or mechanic you can abuse to shut down immortals. And we're talking about a unit that directly counters Thors, Tanks and Hellions and is still more than useful against Marauders (and even Marines) how you yourself pointed out. And if you think about it some more you'll come to the conclusion that there is just nothing left for Terrans that is not demolished by immortals (not including air for an obvious reason). So you're argument that the immortal should NOT be redesigned because protoss would not be able to deal with marauders is plain nonsense. Immortals should not be an untouchable answer to freakin every ground unit a Terran has to offer. Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar Watched all of them. Interesting series. I like how you KNOW what's coming and still can't even survive long enough for mid game with like 5 different strategies while mezmerize is either going for drop or 4 gate >.>. That's exactly how I feel when I'm playing vs Protoss. Even if you manage to survive you'll be at an disadvantage. Of course at least 5 different people will now jump on you and point out how bad you are and what mistakes you did here and there while not being able to provide a single replay that proves you wrong in a thread that exists for 15 pages now Keep it up.
I didn't really know what to expect until after the first couple of games I was just transitioning as I would in BW
But please criticism is appreciated all the same :-P
edit: I know how to counter reavers but not reavers that take ten damage from siege tanks >_<
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On April 14 2010 09:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:26 shinosai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:24 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders. Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking? Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens. When both players use the same strategy nearly every game yes that is game breaking and boring. This is real time strategy bro, where you actually react to the units your opponent is making. Same units almost every game? Are you familiar with Brood War? Matchups are predictable unit-wise. There are options, but you generally know what someone is going to open with, and thus what the other player is going to have to open aswell. OH THIS IS A RTS? Yea, thanks for letting me know. All the condescending horse-shit aside, you sound like you're more than willing to throw tantrum instead of post replays. Guess that follows the general theme here. Carry on.
Replays are never as effective as a straight up challenge. Because you can nitpick replays like little babies all day, but when you have to man up and play the game, things tend to fall apart for bad arguments.
You're the one that started with the condescending assumption that terrans were spoiled, don't get upset when the hostility is thrown right back at you.
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Just... ... ... get better at the game.
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On April 14 2010 09:37 Mente wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:30 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:42 Ganondorf wrote:
I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders. You just hit the nail on the head. I think most people agree that the immortal is designed to counter mech units. So how is it possible that the immortal is also good against marauders? While Colossi and HTs have some serious drawbacks (being hit by air to air, require higher tech etc.) there just is now drawback or mechanic you can abuse to shut down immortals. And we're talking about a unit that directly counters Thors, Tanks and Hellions and is still more than useful against Marauders (and even Marines) how you yourself pointed out. And if you think about it some more you'll come to the conclusion that there is just nothing left for Terrans that is not demolished by immortals (not including air for an obvious reason). So you're argument that the immortal should NOT be redesigned because protoss would not be able to deal with marauders is plain nonsense. Immortals should not be an untouchable answer to freakin every ground unit a Terran has to offer. Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar Watched all of them. Interesting series. I like how you KNOW what's coming and still can't even survive long enough for mid game with like 5 different strategies while mezmerize is either going for drop or 4 gate >.>. That's exactly how I feel when I'm playing vs Protoss. Even if you manage to survive you'll be at an disadvantage. Of course at least 5 different people will now jump on you and point out how bad you are and what mistakes you did here and there while not being able to provide a single replay that proves you wrong in a thread that exists for 15 pages now Keep it up. I didn't really know what to expect until after the first couple of games I was just transitioning as I would in BW But please criticism is appreciated all the same :-P
Don't expect to hold off an early push when you're hell-bent on fast expo. It's common sense man. You're investing a lot into a command center. He's investing that in tech and units. Pretty obvious who's army is going to come out on top there. Marauders, Ghosts, and eventually Medivacs (as well as a raven if he's getting HT to feedback) are all STILL incredibly effective against all toss ground units. Vikings STILL make great counters to colossai.
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On April 14 2010 09:42 shinosai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:26 shinosai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:24 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders. Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking? Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens. When both players use the same strategy nearly every game yes that is game breaking and boring. This is real time strategy bro, where you actually react to the units your opponent is making. Same units almost every game? Are you familiar with Brood War? Matchups are predictable unit-wise. There are options, but you generally know what someone is going to open with, and thus what the other player is going to have to open aswell. OH THIS IS A RTS? Yea, thanks for letting me know. All the condescending horse-shit aside, you sound like you're more than willing to throw tantrum instead of post replays. Guess that follows the general theme here. Carry on. Replays are never as effective as a straight up challenge. Because you can nitpick replays like little babies all day, but when you have to man up and play the game, things tend to fall apart for bad arguments.
Then post some replays to nit-pick. You're proving absolutely nothing with that He-man argument.
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On April 14 2010 09:50 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:42 shinosai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:26 shinosai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:24 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders. Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking? Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens. When both players use the same strategy nearly every game yes that is game breaking and boring. This is real time strategy bro, where you actually react to the units your opponent is making. Same units almost every game? Are you familiar with Brood War? Matchups are predictable unit-wise. There are options, but you generally know what someone is going to open with, and thus what the other player is going to have to open aswell. OH THIS IS A RTS? Yea, thanks for letting me know. All the condescending horse-shit aside, you sound like you're more than willing to throw tantrum instead of post replays. Guess that follows the general theme here. Carry on. Replays are never as effective as a straight up challenge. Because you can nitpick replays like little babies all day, but when you have to man up and play the game, things tend to fall apart for bad arguments. Then post some replays to nit-pick. You're proving absolutely nothing with that He-man argument.
I won't post replays to nitpick because nitpicking solves no arguments. I've never seen a replay successfully prove a point. Everytime anyone posts a replay to solve a balance argument, every single possibly mistake they could have made, even if they are the best player in the entire world, is pointed out.
In other words, either play a game or go away.
If you think you can easily stop stalker immortal push then SHOW ME. I'm right here waiting on sc2.
shinosai.marktheshark
What's that? It's easier to theorycraft what someone could've done to beat a protoss than it is to actually do it? Color me surprised, backseat driver.
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I'll just quote what DeMusliM (winner of the zotac cup and one of the best terrans in europe right now) wrote in another thread in case it's going to be deleted.
On April 14 2010 09:52 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey!
Right - i'm not one to whine, but i'm at a real dead end right now when it comes to this matchup - i've tried literally everything but it feels as if my army is never as cost effective - and never as fast at rebuilding.
Before the patch - TvP has always been my least favourite Matchup as i felt i was limited to 1 viable strategy - that being the marauder fe. The patch came and swiftly tore that apart, and after immortals not allowing mech play, it leaves terran with little option but to go BIO that has been nerfed considerably, and doesn't really stand up to a protoss army head on.
Now, my main predicament being - a 4-5 warpgate rush (i find this incredibly hard to hold off, i just encountered a game where i went 3 rax, 2 bunkers and died behind my wall to it), or the more simple 3 warpgate immortal -> push/expo and tech to HT's.
Before the patch - terrans were still weaker late game vs toss - due to the inability to go heavy units such as thors/tanks, and thus investing alot of money in bio due to it not being totally destroyed by immortals. But right now, i don't have an advantage at any point in the game and feel constantly behind - is their a strategy that i'm missing out on? Or is every Terran feeling the way i do? :S
Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days.
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^ what thread was that DeMusliM post in?
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On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar
That was a brutal set of games. I saw some patterns in this series:
-siege tanks just don't cut it against immortal drop play. No way, no how.
-marauders without ghosts just don't cut it. period.
-FE doesn't work with any combination of marauder or siege tank; actually, I'm pretty sure any kind of early expand just won't work.
Unfortunately those were your main strategies in most of the games. The game I thought you did the best was when you went for banshees, but you lost too many marines in the early game, so you couldn't support banshees. Also, you tried to expand too early.
May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot.
I have a suggestion that might work: try shield marines + banshees, with a bunker at your choke.
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Okay guys, I think I found the counter. Going 4 rax MARINES only FE, meaning don't make any addons and making 3 bunkers. The only problem with the build is you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals. Otherwise, the Protoss can just tech to Collosi and rape your army or go for a 4-5 gate Bunker bust and it'll be gg. So you have to use scan, but at the moment, I think this is the best way to counter the Immortal push.
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May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot.
A lot of terran including myself have stopped walling in vs toss for a variety of reasons: It's really easy for stalker/immortal to pick off those supply depots, especially if they use forcefield. I've lost games because I couldn't protect the buildings due to being blocked by forcefields. It's better to have everything safely inside your base with your army guarding the ramp.
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On April 14 2010 10:10 Prozen wrote:
Okay guys, I think I found the counter. Going 4 rax MARINES only FE, meaning don't make any addons and making 3 bunkers. The only problem with the build is you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals. Otherwise, the Protoss can just tech to Collosi and rape your army or go for a 4-5 gate Bunker bust and it'll be gg. So you have to use scan, but at the moment, I think this is the best way to counter the Immortal push.
I think morrow's 1 rax marine -> expand -> lab on rax + 2 reactor raxes -> pump MASS shield marines + 4 bunkers at nat is better than that. Getting no add-ons seems like a bad idea unless you're going for some kind of proxy/all-in attack.
On April 14 2010 10:13 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +
May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot. A lot of terran including myself have stopped walling in vs toss for a variety of reasons: It's really easy for stalker/immortal to pick off those supply depots, especially if they use forcefield. I've lost games because I couldn't protect the buildings due to being blocked by forcefields. It's better to have everything safely inside your base with your army guarding the ramp.
well in that case just don't wall-in at all right? or did you not watch the replays?
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On April 14 2010 10:10 Prozen wrote:
Okay guys, I think I found the counter. Going 4 rax MARINES only FE, meaning don't make any addons and making 3 bunkers. The only problem with the build is you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals. Otherwise, the Protoss can just tech to Collosi and rape your army or go for a 4-5 gate Bunker bust and it'll be gg. So you have to use scan, but at the moment, I think this is the best way to counter the Immortal push.
OOPS his observer saw your 4 rax w/o techlab. He switches to Colossus. GG.
... Jokings aside, 4 rax then fe feels like rines going to get decimated when toss storms with force field to cut your army in half. At least marauder had enough HP and range (6), rines will just get owned. Anyway, can you post a replay of this strat?
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On April 14 2010 10:17 mrlie3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 10:10 Prozen wrote:
Okay guys, I think I found the counter. Going 4 rax MARINES only FE, meaning don't make any addons and making 3 bunkers. The only problem with the build is you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals. Otherwise, the Protoss can just tech to Collosi and rape your army or go for a 4-5 gate Bunker bust and it'll be gg. So you have to use scan, but at the moment, I think this is the best way to counter the Immortal push. OOPS his observer saw your 4 rax w/o techlab. He switches to Colossus. GG. ... Jokings aside, 4 rax then fe feels like rines going to get decimated when toss storms with force field to cut your army in half. At least marauder had enough HP and range (6), rines will just get owned. Anyway, can you post a replay of this strat?
I don't think he means get four barracks before you expand. That's....not an FE.
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darn my thread got deleted!
But anyways - i've spoke with several top terran players, and luckily they all said this mu was by far the hardest for them so that atleast makes me a little happier inside knowing i'm not the only one.
Blizz have been on the ball so far with nerfs/buffs (although i believe they are dodging the main bulk of units causing problems) so hopefully sometime soon - someone either comes up with some god almighty strat! Or, the more likely blizzard patch comes and saves us ! %)
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heres a game against mezmerize.
I think I had a decent chance that game against a 4 gate warpgate rush. reapers kinda forced him away from his normal fast immortal tech.
I blew the game when I attacked his expo and sent my reapers to his main(me being greedy). Reapers would have wtfowned those front sentries and marauders would have cleared the place after.
Made multiple mistakes early game. splitting my defensive force as I was looking for a proxy pylon, got half my defense blew up.
Basically, early nitro reapers let me put enough pressure so he cannot do whatever he wants. One gripe I have is that reapers takes as much time to build as an immortal. It's difficult to manage that build time.
I feel like you always need to have a reaper strike force ready to hit fast when your game sense is tingling. They are certainly good dps vs anything the toss can push out.
for the records, we played 3 games and I lost all 3. This was the closest.
[url blocked]
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Well I'm talking about going CC after your first Rax pumping Marines then while the CC is being built going 3 more Rax all at once and pumping Rines to fill up your bunkers. Then you make the appropriate transition into whichever unit composition you need to fight the Protoss. I would post replays of it, but the games of that strategy led to the Terran completely crushing the Protoss's unit composition (Sentries/Zealots/Immortals/Stalkers) and then destroying the Protoss's base. It didn't lead to a longer game where the Protoss switched to Collosi etc. I think the transition after the build is important as well so it's still a build in progress. But for now, I'm very confident that it counters this 3 warpgate immortal push.
Edit: @ Blasius: It's also not like the T will just sit on 4 empty Barracks. He has to scout the Protoss and react accordingly. I think going 4 raxes without addons or 3 raxes without addons and 1 with a tech lab is better, because think about it. It takes a while for the reactors to go up and by the time the reactor goes up, you could have made 2~3 Marines without it. I agree about the tech lab addon though, it definitely helps to be able to make a quick switch to Marauders if you need to.
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On April 14 2010 10:29 DeMusliM wrote:
darn my thread got deleted!
But anyways - i've spoke with several top terran players, and luckily they all said this mu was by far the hardest for them so that atleast makes me a little happier inside knowing i'm not the only one.
Blizz have been on the ball so far with nerfs/buffs (although i believe they are dodging the main bulk of units causing problems) so hopefully sometime soon - someone either comes up with some god almighty strat! Or, the more likely blizzard patch comes and saves us ! %)
The fact that DeMuslim is saying this makes me feel much less of a retard. I (now 1350 terran plat) was in like a 10 game losing streak vs. protoss before trying out the MorroW build - 1rax no gas into FE, then 1 gas+tech 2rax+reactor + bunker defense at nat and was finally able to win. Somehow I feel the protoss made some mistakes which made my job easier though... nevertheless I was so damn happy to finally be able to beat a protoss.
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I completely hear the argument about why immortals are just ridiculous against Terran. They counter all mech units and act as a soft counter to marauders. It's annoying that one unit counters so many of Terran's units and I fully understand.
However, you must look at the game from the Protoss perspective, as well. If you make Immortals later tech, you're taking away Protoss's pretty much only chance at surviving any early Marauder push/harass. Marauders come out much much earlier than Immortals and they absolutely rape any Protoss T1 unit. The concussive shells "nerf" does simply moves the marauder push back 80 seconds, which is not enough time for Protoss to research charge and without charge Protoss T1 simply cannot take down Marauders even with FF.
Lowering Immortal damage bonus is probably a better option. However, keep in mind that again, the reason why Protoss can hold off early Marauder pushes are because Immortals do so much damage. Marauders have a ridiculous 125 hp! It takes immortals 3 hits to kill a marauder. Possible ways to balance are to either a) increase Marauder hp so that they can take 4 hits before dying, or b) decrease Immortal damage so they don't kill Marauders in 3 hits. Option a is obviously a horrible one; not even going to expand on that. Option b is more realistic. Maybe simply reducing immortal damage to 20+20 would solve the problem. Maybe making Marauders be able to tank 1 more hit will solve Terran bio's mid-late game problems without completely ruining Protoss early game.
Unfortunately, I don't feel that nerfing Immortal damage would really fix the issue in the long term. Half of the reason why the immortal shuts down mech play completely is because of its shields. However, nerfing Immortal shields is (in my opinion) completely out of the question. Why? Because Terran already has a very viable counter to Immortal shields. EMP. Nerfing Immortal shields is redundant, and will have more implications in PvZ and PvP as well. Not just PvT. Some people have argued that EMP's usefulness is reduced by the presence of Feedback on HTs. However, I just do not feel that that is a very valid argument. I can argue that Feedback on HTs is reduced by the presence of EMP's on the ghost. I think it's simply a matter of skill when it comes to using EMP v. Feedback. Look at BW. There were plenty of abilities in BW that seemed clearly imbalanced or were extraordinarily hard counters. Plague and Dark swarm come to mind. Dark swarm was clearly a "Terran is now useless in this area" button. Yet, the metagame still worked in BW. Players just had to adapt to those abilities and rely on their micromanagement skill in order to survive.
Blizzard already made what in my mind was a horrible move. Nerfing storm AoE. It discouraged micromanagement skill and is very detrimental to SC2's possible future as an esport. If all people had to do was to play rock paper scissors and a-move their armies into each other with very little micromanagement skill then SC2 will not survive as an esport.
EDIT: Tbh, I think nerfing marauder slow was the wrong move by Blizzard. Pre-patch 8 it allowed Terran to put early pressure on Protoss so that when Immortals did pop out, it wasn't such an uphill battle. PvT was actually pretty balanced pre-patch 8 imo.
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maybe change tanks armor type would help^^
wouldnt influence tvz since all zerg units do normal dmg
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On April 14 2010 10:29 Fallen wrote:
heres a game against mezmerize.
I think I had a decent chance that game against a 4 gate warpgate rush. reapers kinda forced him away from his normal fast immortal tech.
I blew the game when I attacked his expo and sent my reapers to his main(me being greedy). Reapers would have wtfowned those front sentries and marauders would have cleared the place after.
Made multiple mistakes early game. splitting my defensive force as I was looking for a proxy pylon, got half my defense blew up.
Basically, early nitro reapers let me put enough pressure so he cannot do whatever he wants. One gripe I have is that reapers takes as much time to build as an immortal. It's difficult to manage that build time.
I feel like you always need to have a reaper strike force ready to hit fast when your game sense is tingling. They are certainly good dps vs anything the toss can push out.
for the records, we played 3 games and I lost all 3. This was the closest.
[url blocked]
That replay was really interesting, it's not often that you see a terran using reaper in his battle force, but they clearly do their job of killing sentry really fast.
By your harass you did make Mezmerize go for 4warpgate stalkers, 1-2 sentries and you had 3-4 rax with tech lab, after that opening you could include in your game plan to get more marauder quickly and not over commit yourself in reapers as he just massed thoses counters that are stalkers, you had the buildings for that and the ressources to marauders and maybe expo by clearing those stalkers at your door before the sentry warping begun.
I will not take examples in every minutes of this game but an interesting fight happen at 18minutes, Mezmerize is at 121 psi and you're at 76 let's take out the workers 57 and 33 respectively you had 64 and 43 supply in ground forces and you held it off pretty easily with your reapers on the edge even with like 4/5th of your marauders being blocked away.
With a little more map control on the early/mid game you could have a really great game here, marauders are better than stalker 1v1 get as much marauder as you need to fend off a stalker confinement.
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On April 14 2010 09:47 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:37 Mente wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:30 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:42 Ganondorf wrote:
I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders. You just hit the nail on the head. I think most people agree that the immortal is designed to counter mech units. So how is it possible that the immortal is also good against marauders? While Colossi and HTs have some serious drawbacks (being hit by air to air, require higher tech etc.) there just is now drawback or mechanic you can abuse to shut down immortals. And we're talking about a unit that directly counters Thors, Tanks and Hellions and is still more than useful against Marauders (and even Marines) how you yourself pointed out. And if you think about it some more you'll come to the conclusion that there is just nothing left for Terrans that is not demolished by immortals (not including air for an obvious reason). So you're argument that the immortal should NOT be redesigned because protoss would not be able to deal with marauders is plain nonsense. Immortals should not be an untouchable answer to freakin every ground unit a Terran has to offer. Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar Watched all of them. Interesting series. I like how you KNOW what's coming and still can't even survive long enough for mid game with like 5 different strategies while mezmerize is either going for drop or 4 gate >.>. That's exactly how I feel when I'm playing vs Protoss. Even if you manage to survive you'll be at an disadvantage. Of course at least 5 different people will now jump on you and point out how bad you are and what mistakes you did here and there while not being able to provide a single replay that proves you wrong in a thread that exists for 15 pages now Keep it up. I didn't really know what to expect until after the first couple of games I was just transitioning as I would in BW But please criticism is appreciated all the same :-P Don't expect to hold off an early push when you're hell-bent on fast expo. It's common sense man. You're investing a lot into a command center. He's investing that in tech and units. Pretty obvious who's army is going to come out on top there. Marauders, Ghosts, and eventually Medivacs (as well as a raven if he's getting HT to feedback) are all STILL incredibly effective against all toss ground units. Vikings STILL make great counters to colossai.
I feel like there has to be a way to make FE work well. It's worked in previous ladder games, maybe my mentality was off when I was playing Mez but overall I have not given up yet.
edit: I've been trying a multitude of FE builds and I'm still trying to find the one that feels the best for me. Hopefully I'll figure it out soon.
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On April 14 2010 10:09 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar That was a brutal set of games. I saw some patterns in this series: -siege tanks just don't cut it against immortal drop play. No way, no how. -marauders without ghosts just don't cut it. period. -FE doesn't work with any combination of marauder or siege tank; actually, I'm pretty sure any kind of early expand just won't work. Unfortunately those were your main strategies in most of the games. The game I thought you did the best was when you went for banshees, but you lost too many marines in the early game, so you couldn't support banshees. Also, you tried to expand too early. May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot. I have a suggestion that might work: try shield marines + banshees, with a bunker at your choke.
Most of the time I feel the standard wall in gives away too much of my build and the fragile depots don't really add much (i've gravitated away from the oldschool wall ins ever since the baneling bust).
Generally I'll try and block the choke with at least one smaller building but generally I'm trying to make sure I can push out and secure the FE rather than worry about my main base's choke (although clearly with 2 unit producing buildings I can throw down the final cog of my wall and protect myself need be).
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On April 14 2010 13:04 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 10:09 BlasiuS wrote:On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar That was a brutal set of games. I saw some patterns in this series: -siege tanks just don't cut it against immortal drop play. No way, no how. -marauders without ghosts just don't cut it. period. -FE doesn't work with any combination of marauder or siege tank; actually, I'm pretty sure any kind of early expand just won't work. Unfortunately those were your main strategies in most of the games. The game I thought you did the best was when you went for banshees, but you lost too many marines in the early game, so you couldn't support banshees. Also, you tried to expand too early. May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot. I have a suggestion that might work: try shield marines + banshees, with a bunker at your choke. Most of the time I feel the standard wall in gives away too much of my build and the fragile depots don't really add much (i've gravitated away from the oldschool wall ins ever since the baneling bust).
 don't understand. normal wall-in shows the enemy 2 depots and a barracks, while your wall-in shows at least 1 barracks + 1 factory/2 barracks + depot/bunker. Clearly your wall-in gives away more information than the standard wall-in.
If a probe scouts your ramp and sees a barracks and a factory, he can more easily guess your tech than if it sees just a barracks and 2 depots.
Right?
And obviously there's no danger of baneling bust in TvP
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On April 14 2010 13:11 BlasiuS wrote:And obviously there's no danger of baneling bust in TvP
Dude.. Immortals deal what, 48? 49? damage against buildings... T still has possible depot bust against toss.
And I think the problem is whether T goes 2 rax or 1 rax 1 fact, 4 gate 1 robo works on either of them. :/
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On April 14 2010 13:11 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 13:04 Mente wrote:On April 14 2010 10:09 BlasiuS wrote:On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar That was a brutal set of games. I saw some patterns in this series: -siege tanks just don't cut it against immortal drop play. No way, no how. -marauders without ghosts just don't cut it. period. -FE doesn't work with any combination of marauder or siege tank; actually, I'm pretty sure any kind of early expand just won't work. Unfortunately those were your main strategies in most of the games. The game I thought you did the best was when you went for banshees, but you lost too many marines in the early game, so you couldn't support banshees. Also, you tried to expand too early. May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot. I have a suggestion that might work: try shield marines + banshees, with a bunker at your choke. Most of the time I feel the standard wall in gives away too much of my build and the fragile depots don't really add much (i've gravitated away from the oldschool wall ins ever since the baneling bust). don't understand. normal wall-in shows the enemy 2 depots and a barracks, while your wall-in shows at least 1 barracks + 1 factory/2 barracks + depot/bunker. Clearly your wall-in gives away more information than the standard wall-in. If a probe scouts your ramp and sees a barracks and a factory, he can more easily guess your tech than if it sees just a barracks and 2 depots. Right? And obviously there's no danger of baneling bust in TvP
I'm only worried about the initial probe scout. A walled in probe is more likely to scout more information than one that can leave when the marine pops out :-P. Also seeing a wall means you're 1 basing (generally). All I can tell is all he sees is a rax no wall and if he tries to go for the standard depot break he'll be sadly mistaken as any tech I have will prevent him from further scouting until he can get an observer.
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The root cause of this TvP imbalance is the marine nerf. In the eariler patches you could have enough marines to hold until Colossus, but with the increased reactor and marine build times, you cannot mass enough basic units to pressure a techer (which is retarded). The only way a Terran can even hope to win is to delay the protoss with some type of 8 rax reaper rush.
The reason this was not a big deal before was because the rokkits covered up the core problem but since they have been patched, you see the problem. THE MARINE BUILD TIME IS WAY TOO LONG.
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The marine time also affects TvZ quite a bit. Also keep in mind that the primary problem with the immortal is how fast it comes out. The unit itself is fine, but it's out so ridiculously early that terran has no answer to it. Even when emp enters the field immortals are STILL insanely strong so it's not like terran magically regains map control when he gets EMP. Toss just has the upper hand all game. I highly doubt marines would change that at all.
Another reason marines don't matter is because stalkers with good micro can pick apart marine forces pretty easily. Add in a couple sentries for FF/GS and marines become such absolute garbage without some firepower backing. Marauders are a decent option but that's back to square one. Tanks are my unit of choice because they transition much better into midgame/lategame. However, if you go tanks you'll never have enough marines. If you delay tanks you never have an answer to gateway units. So.... problem.
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I just rewatched Day[9]'s cast #99 (because there's no VOD for #100 yet T^T). And he touches on something pretty interesting. What if to deal with immortals Terran makes tanks and keeps some of them unseiged? With micro unseiged tanks should be able to take down immortals pretty easily as they not only outrange immortals, but you can keep a few in the back seiged to deal with the other protoss units. in addition, unseiged tank dps is pretty high v. armored units, which immortals are. They attack rather fast while unseiged and getting that 10 shots to deplete Immortal harden shields shouldn't be too hard especially with MM support. Obviously, you would need really good micro to pull it off, but I'd imagine it'd be similar to tank micro v. unranged goons in SC1... It should at least buy time for ghost to get in better position or to mass up enough marines to deal with the rest of the Toss army.
just throwing that thought out there.
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so vs immortal, unsieged tanks are better than sieged right?
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On April 14 2010 16:21 exalted wrote:
so vs immortal, unsieged tanks are better than sieged right?
i believe so yes. Because with micro the immortal will never actually hit the tanks. Furthermore, tanks do higher dps to armored units while unseiged (but no splash). Although, yes...FF will make micro-ing the tanks a little problematic but if you have seiged tanks in the back target firing those really weak 40/40 sentries I can see this working out quite well.
EDIT: I also want to point out that tanks build much faster now. I dont' play terran so I don't know the timing, but I'd imagine that it shouldn't be too hard to get out a decent number of tanks in time for immortal pushes, seeing how both tanks and immortals are T2.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
Why we should overcome imbalances(Immortal) when Blizzard can nerf this imbalance?...
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On April 14 2010 16:37 Jenia6109 wrote:
Why we should overcome imbalances(Immortal) when Blizzard can nerf this imbalance?...
Horrible way of thinking. Imagine if people thought that way in SC1. We'd have no vulture (micro or spider mines), no dark swarm, no plague, and no irradiate.
Obviously after over a decade of Starcraft, those things I just mentioned don't seem so imbalanced. But that's because the players adapted to those things. I mean, think about what dark swarm does. It makes all ranged attacks completely useless and basically makes zerg immune to terran. Plague can take a unit from hundreds of hp to 1. Irradiate kills (almost) any zerg unit with one cast while dealing good splash. Vultures can kite any ground melee unit indefinitely and have 3 mini nukes all for the cheap cost of 75 minerals.
It was the players who "overcame imbalances." Not Blizzard nerfing them that made SC1 the way it is.
Come on. And immortals are imbalanced? At least so much that Blizzard needs to nerf it? Really? The only time I think Blizzard should nerf something is if there is literally nothing that can be done to counter it or there's absolutely no alternative. It's only been a week. ONE week since patch 8 (which before that PvT was relatively balanced) and at least from the games I've played (i'm rank 1 gold and i get pitted up against rank 25+ plats like every game now) people are still trying to do the same old strat of MMM.
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On April 14 2010 16:19 Ryuu314 wrote:
I just rewatched Day[9]'s cast #99 (because there's no VOD for #100 yet T^T). And he touches on something pretty interesting. What if to deal with immortals Terran makes tanks and keeps some of them unseiged? With micro unseiged tanks should be able to take down immortals pretty easily as they not only outrange immortals, but you can keep a few in the back seiged to deal with the other protoss units. in addition, unseiged tank dps is pretty high v. armored units, which immortals are. They attack rather fast while unseiged and getting that 10 shots to deplete Immortal harden shields shouldn't be too hard especially with MM support. Obviously, you would need really good micro to pull it off, but I'd imagine it'd be similar to tank micro v. unranged goons in SC1... It should at least buy time for ghost to get in better position or to mass up enough marines to deal with the rest of the Toss army.
just throwing that thought out there.
This is extremely challenging to do as it also requires units to slow the immortal pursuit of the tank! An immortal has faster animation for shooting and moves slightly faster than tanks. This is extremely frustrating to do with only tanks, don't try it.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
On April 14 2010 16:44 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 16:37 Jenia6109 wrote:
Why we should overcome imbalances(Immortal) when Blizzard can nerf this imbalance?...
Horrible way of thinking. Imagine if people thought that way in SC1. We'd have no vulture (micro or spider mines), no dark swarm, no plague, and no irradiate. It was the players who "overcame imbalances." Not Blizzard nerfing them that made SC1 the way it is.
Why my way of thinking is so horrible compared to yours? If we will think by your way we will have such a disaster like Muta-Scourge-Ling in ZvZ or absence of infantry units in TvP and TvT in SC1. Players cant balance it because it's mistakes of developers.
Perfect balance is not only balance between races but also balance within each race when u can use any unit available. I love TvZ and PvZ balance in SC1: u really can do anything your soul want. But in SC2 TvP u should make mass-Marauders only and this is bad for balancing of the game.
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I feel like I am playing a totally different game than you guys.. and im only 1600 Platinum on US server. but geez.. Terran DOMINATES me 9 times out of 10.
I lost to three guys today who went banshee harass into mass banshee/marauder/ghost.. and it wasnt even a challenge. I had at least 8 immortal/mass stalker/sentry and speedlots, and they would all die in seconds. If I did happen to kill the marauder army (which was only one game out of 3), then the cloakd banshees with 2 vikings/raven to kill obs in seconds, just owned everything I had. 5 banshees can own everything a protoss has except phoenix's, and if you have to get a starport/phoenix's that significantly reduces your time to produce immortals/units to counter the incredibly lame marauders.
Seriously.. How are you guys losing to the most basic Protoss "push"? Marauders/ghost + anything else mixed in totally dominates it.
My take on the balance is the game is pretty damn close, but marauders need a stat reduction, at least HP nerf or damage nerf. they are fucking crazy!
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before the patch we were able to get an expansion. now we put 1 or 2 bunkers, build a ghosts and pray...
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I also think TvP is skewed for the P, but don't discount the marines. With the attack upgrade / stim / shield upgrade and some supreme micro you can kite protoss robo armies around all day long with stimmed marines. Until they get the charge upgrade or storm, of course. I'd much rather take my chances in a frantic micro battle with mass marines than just inviting an immortal to rape my army by building tanks.
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On April 14 2010 17:18 Skyze wrote:
I feel like I am playing a totally different game than you guys.. and im only 1600 Platinum on US server. but geez.. Terran DOMINATES me 9 times out of 10.
I lost to three guys today who went banshee harass into mass banshee/marauder/ghost.. and it wasnt even a challenge. I had at least 8 immortal/mass stalker/sentry and speedlots, and they would all die in seconds. If I did happen to kill the marauder army (which was only one game out of 3), then the cloakd banshees with 2 vikings/raven to kill obs in seconds, just owned everything I had. 5 banshees can own everything a protoss has except phoenix's, and if you have to get a starport/phoenix's that significantly reduces your time to produce immortals/units to counter the incredibly lame marauders.
Seriously.. How are you guys losing to the most basic Protoss "push"? Marauders/ghost + anything else mixed in totally dominates it.
My take on the balance is the game is pretty damn close, but marauders need a stat reduction, at least HP nerf or damage nerf. they are fucking crazy!
Watch the replays I posted or post some of your own cause we probably are playing a different game.
edit: Mez if you read this I'd like to try some more builds I'm thinking of against you if you're down for it later.
sleep time now though
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On April 14 2010 11:18 2SCV1cup wrote:
maybe change tanks armor type would help^^
wouldnt influence tvz since all zerg units do normal dmg
still think its decent idea lol
imagne that immortals do 20 dmg to tanks not 50 or some other amount (lets say they will have fortified armor type and take only 50% from bonus +armored dmg )
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Russian Federation85 Posts
Tell me one thing, if anyone would post replays.... what would you do if you want immortal nerfs? You would count EVERY fucking mistake the P would have done and declare the replays worthless due the "fact" that the P player was a newb, regardless of everything.
On the other hand people who say that T should learn to adapt will say regardless of the replay that the T has options, which the replay would prove without taking in the account that the P could be simple a bad p player.
So actually it wouldn't change anything for neither of the side.
There tons of replays which you can download and watch were T successfully won over P immortal rushes, but there are tons of replays of successful Immortal rushes vs T as well.
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well I dont understand how you terrans are complaining, esp after you had 4 patchs of massing one unit every game and bulldozering every race (including TvT), but if Blizzard does come with a "nerf" to immortals or anything protoss, I think its just going to make the matchup impossible.
The way I look at it, Immortals is the only thing protoss has that KEEPS US ALIVE to even compete with Terran. Without them, theres nothing else protoss can really do. Storm nerf was so bad, and it just feels like when you land a perfect storm (which is hard as hell to do now) on a big troop of marauders, it feels like the storm doesnt even do damage. It takes 2-3 direct storms to go thru their whole motion to even kill one marauder, which is totally wrong because in BW it only took 2 storms to even kill a tank! I can only imagine how many storms it'd take to kill a thor! 5 or 6?
If they nerfed immortals without nerfing marauders again or banshees... I dont know what to do in this matchup. Only way I can think is doing like some DT warpins or something, but even that isnt too strong due to scvs movement pathing so much better, and scan is cheap now. Maybe carrier/mothership rushing will work, only thing I can think of.
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On April 12 2010 21:42 Klive5ive wrote:
I play all 3 races and I have to say I don't think Terran has EVER been even against Protoss.
Obviously Terran had that ridiculous proxy barracks rush that was an instant-win, or the super fast reapers and more recently very early pressure with mass marauders and ghosts in close positions.
And Terran will continue to be powerful early game due to the Mule advantage.
However on distant positions or in a long game I just don't believe Terran is even with Protoss.
Collsosus/immortal/Zealot/Sentry/stalker create this ball of destruction that an even supply Terran army just has no absoultely no chance against, it's not even close. The sentries tear the Terran army in half, the collosus/templar aoe the crap out of everything and the Zealots clean up.
+1
collossus + immortal + zealot + stalker + sentry + high templar
combo owns
valkrie + medivac + marine + ghost + marauder
combo all the time
marines and marauders are tear 1 units. we use them in end game to deal with a tier 3 protoss army. marine and marauder damages are not even comparable with collossus, immortal or high templar.
i feel like i am playing zerg and massing zerglings (marines). casting 'plague' (emp).
it is also ridiculous that we use walkries to deal with a specific protoss unit.
we need mech !
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every tvp has become stalker/immortal off of two-three gates, if you expo you almost auto-lose to a 3gate/robo push, then they can expo freely while doing damage.
god forbid they know how to build a warp prism, now they can harrass you with immortals in your base, and outside.
and maps with gold minerals, you are dead.
basically, everything you can do as Terran that is viable is countered by the act of them building immortals.
the effort cost ratio or however you want to call it is horrible. takes almost zero effort to use immortals, takes godlike skill to deal with them.
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The more Ghosts you make, the harder it is to Feedback them all before you get an EMP in the face as your armies approach one another. I lost two such matchups described above the other day because I just couldn't catch all 5 of the buggers as our armies approached, and yes that was with an Observer over them. We were doing a little dance in front of one another for a little bit, then he sent all 5 Ghosts out at once. Just didn't have the time to catch them all. One EMP, particularly on the HTs, is all it takes to weaken the Protoss army enough to utterly steamroll over it.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
On April 14 2010 18:01 avilo wrote:
the effort cost ratio or however you want to call it is horrible. takes almost zero effort to use immortals, takes godlike skill to deal with them.
actually YES
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On April 14 2010 17:22 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 17:18 Skyze wrote:
I feel like I am playing a totally different game than you guys.. and im only 1600 Platinum on US server. but geez.. Terran DOMINATES me 9 times out of 10.
I lost to three guys today who went banshee harass into mass banshee/marauder/ghost.. and it wasnt even a challenge. I had at least 8 immortal/mass stalker/sentry and speedlots, and they would all die in seconds. If I did happen to kill the marauder army (which was only one game out of 3), then the cloakd banshees with 2 vikings/raven to kill obs in seconds, just owned everything I had. 5 banshees can own everything a protoss has except phoenix's, and if you have to get a starport/phoenix's that significantly reduces your time to produce immortals/units to counter the incredibly lame marauders.
Seriously.. How are you guys losing to the most basic Protoss "push"? Marauders/ghost + anything else mixed in totally dominates it.
My take on the balance is the game is pretty damn close, but marauders need a stat reduction, at least HP nerf or damage nerf. they are fucking crazy! Watch the replays I posted or post some of your own cause we probably are playing a different game. edit: Mez if you read this I'd like to try some more builds I'm thinking of against you if you're down for it later. sleep time now though
I watched your replays man. I think you could of won at least 3 of those games, just micro. Like the one where you sent marauders to his base when he got the prism.. You WALKED into his probes, he didnt surround you, and your army should of been able to take his army easily if you didnt make that mistake. The fast reaper game, you shoulda got at least 3-4 probes but you attacked the PYLON?? wow. No wonder. The Banshee game where you fast expo'd to the island, You held his 3gate+immortals off with a super fast expo and 1 starport banshee with no marauders.. Just imagine what would of happened if you got marauders instead of marines, or 2starport banshees? He would of been tapping out in seconds.
And last but not least, the thing that bugs me the most, the game where hes on 12 and your on 3, he does prism 2immortal harassing.. You try to fend it off with marine/tank again, the EXACT units Immortals are made to counter. As soon as you have 3 marauders there, he flys away because he knows 3 marauder > 2 immortals.. Yet you chose marines/tanks the whole earlygame therefor losing at least 1000 minerals in being outmicroed/bad unit combos. You said its worse than reavers, well the equivilant of going marine/tank vs immortal drop is like going mass zerglings vs reaver drop and expecting to win, when 3 hydras can take it out.
Im starting to think this is merely a testament to Mezmerize being such a better player than the terrans hes playing in these replays (from the OP and Mente), that is why he is winning with ease. It would be the same as if I went against Demuslim in 5 PvT's, I would get owned everygame with ease.. Does that mean Terran is way better than toss?? No. Its just the players playing have a large skill gap.
Someone hook up Mezmerize vs Demuslim or any top terran like LZ on US server, and I doubt the results will be similar.
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3 marauders > 2 immortals? even with stimpack i dont think so..
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On April 14 2010 19:02 yanot wrote:
3 marauders > 2 immortals? even with stimpack i dont think so..
look at his previous post. lots great info there. immortals counter marines, storm should be the solution for evrything and toss is a poor race overall.
yeah..
overall the total lack of teching required for toss vs the SHITLOAD of tech T requires is a huge part of the problem.
before you can even think about fighting a even battle you already sopent like 600++ gas(and more minerals) on upgrades and tech. while the P just needs 50 + 100 gas to pump his super allround army that beats evrything on ground at that stage.
robo bay 200 gas, sentry +2 armor shield 150/150 research and increase the buildtime of immortals abit . its not like zeal/stalker/sentry is vulnerable against anything early on.
i still think the immortal is a stupid unit cause it counters 70% of ground units with the other 30% covered by the same tech building (collussus).but these changes would atleast force them to tech like evryone else instead of going warpgate+robo and then just pump away for the next 10 minutes.
on strats i really have not much success tvp on mid plat level.
seems like i can stand toe to toe with top 10 plat in tvt and tvz but tvp i always lose if the enemy doesnt do huge mistakes (aka rightclick moving past my army , beeing ultra defense,trying to sneak expos across the map instead of taking his nat). only on LT,sometimes steppes and kulas i can sometimes go for the marine heavy FE with PF and proceed to expo agressive with the fortresses. yeah having very few mules sucks but not having a expo sucks more. and 2base play is much much more enjoyable vs cause without 4 gas youll never ever ever have enough gas for anything.
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Immortals counter 70% of ground units and other 30% are countered by the same tech?? umm.. HELLO?? Marauder counters ULTRALISKS (as shown by Demuslim) and then thors with their insane anti air, You basically just go Marauder/thor and can beat everything in the game.
Yes, 3 marauders will own 2 immortals in a dropship in the terran base, because if they dont kill them (which they will be very close, one immortal might have like 20 hp left) in the terrans base, reinforcements arrive fast. If it was open field, maybe immortals would do ok.. but considering the cost of immortals, the tech (not first building like marauders) and price, I would EXPECT 2 immortals to come out ahead 1v1.. In even numbers according to cost of minerals/gas, I am betting marauders would annihilate immortals. For immortals to win, you NEED a meat shield infront of them, so until zeal speed is upgraded, marauders own them. The reason you guys keep losing to immortals is you are going tanks.. which is the unit immortals are made to COUNTER. I dont understand how much more clear I can be. Like I said above, its like complaining reavers are too good vs zerglings.
I dont see any top terrans having problems vs protoss, other than Demuslim's complaining, yet he still puts up results vs top protoss's like its nothing.. So you guys must be doing something wrong.
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Btw just to prove my point further.. The first top results I clicked on, was the mTw vs Mouz matchup.. Guess what the results were there..
Naruto 2:0 Mana
Strelok 2:0 Kara
Im sure if I looked at more tourney/league results, they will all be similar. Protoss wins some, Terran wins some. Not 100% protoss winning.
so um. If protoss is so imbalanced, wouldnt top players be winning every game vs terran? You cant say a race is imbalanced when they are still competing at a high level and winning games. Its like saying Protoss was imbalanced during the Bisu era, well how has Protoss done since then? Outside of Bisu and Stork, pretty god damn awful.
Just need to analyze the matchup, learn from your mistakes and make a strat that beats it. Dont go crying imbalance about a unit because you dont know how to counter a simple strategy.
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On April 14 2010 19:47 Skyze wrote:
Immortals counter 70% of ground units and other 30% are countered by the same tech?? umm.. HELLO?? Marauder counters ULTRALISKS (as shown by Demuslim) and then thors with their insane anti air, You basically just go Marauder/thor and can beat everything in the game.
Yes, 3 marauders will own 2 immortals in a dropship in the terran base, because if they dont kill them (which they will be very close, one immortal might have like 20 hp left) in the terrans base, reinforcements arrive fast. If it was open field, maybe immortals would do ok.. but considering the cost of immortals, the tech (not first building like marauders) and price, I would EXPECT 2 immortals to come out ahead 1v1.. In even numbers according to cost of minerals/gas, I am betting marauders would annihilate immortals. For immortals to win, you NEED a meat shield infront of them, so until zeal speed is upgraded, marauders own them. The reason you guys keep losing to immortals is you are going tanks.. which is the unit immortals are made to COUNTER. I dont understand how much more clear I can be. Like I said above, its like complaining reavers are too good vs zerglings.
I dont see any top terrans having problems vs protoss, other than Demuslim's complaining, yet he still puts up results vs top protoss's like its nothing.. So you guys must be doing something wrong.
dude really. stop posting. and esp double posting.
what is your point at saying marauders counter ultras? ofc they do. high hp 22+ dmg/shot units. also ultras suck.
and if you think thor/marauder beats evrything in the game then just give your betakey(you have one right?) to someone who actually will play the game instead of making up weird stuff to justify his nonexistant point in forums.
and 2 immortals RAPERAPERAPE 3 irauders. esp when in a dropship. they drop, kill 1 marauder while recieving 30-40 dmg shield dmg . kill the other 2 marauders, let shield reg and kill 3 marauders again. but maybe you live in a funny parrallel world where marauders shoot air and do 50dmg/shot thru shields?
your total ignorance and total lack of any knowledge while beeing so damn cocky is disturbing.
and btw go away with your tourney results. last zotac was PvP final. does it prove anything? no. except that your 2nd post is worthless ofc.
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I've been losing basically all my games in the TvP matchup in >1250 Plat. The only way I can beat a toss is cheese. Sometimes I get lucky and can do a lot of damage with reapers but that is usually never the case not to mention I use a 9 Rax build to do that. The only other luck I have is taking an extremely fast expo. 1 Supply Depo -> CC -> refinary then planetary fortress an expo, but even then its extremely hard to get enough marines up in time to beat immortals.
I don't have the greatest proof to say this matchup is imba it might be to some degree, but I can honestly say the amount of skill it takes in a TvP matchup is severely disproportionate between the races. I just find the matchup to be hard to deal with.
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i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really.
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On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really.
when you rush for emp you will have 1 emp with like 4 marauders and4 marines without ANY upgrades when they come with 1-2 immortals + 2-4 zeals+ 2 stalkers and 2 sentries.even if you do a perfect emp they just expo, wait for shields to reg and attack again.
T just doesnt have the gas and time to get what they need (their 3 infantry upgrades,emp,support units+tech ) because P just needs 150 gas for his tech and ZERO upgrades and can straight pump away. not to mention that marines get countered by sentries and rauders by immortals. so your whole unit combo is worthless till you teched up and get medivac/tank/ghost support.
mind this thread is mostly about early game. fully teched T is fine vs P. stuff is counterable and it comes down to micro,positioning,comp and scouting. but early game the P can do his standart build, aclick and the T even if he does a perfect defense will still be behind.
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On April 14 2010 20:08 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 19:47 Skyze wrote:
Immortals counter 70% of ground units and other 30% are countered by the same tech?? umm.. HELLO?? Marauder counters ULTRALISKS (as shown by Demuslim) and then thors with their insane anti air, You basically just go Marauder/thor and can beat everything in the game.
Yes, 3 marauders will own 2 immortals in a dropship in the terran base, because if they dont kill them (which they will be very close, one immortal might have like 20 hp left) in the terrans base, reinforcements arrive fast. If it was open field, maybe immortals would do ok.. but considering the cost of immortals, the tech (not first building like marauders) and price, I would EXPECT 2 immortals to come out ahead 1v1.. In even numbers according to cost of minerals/gas, I am betting marauders would annihilate immortals. For immortals to win, you NEED a meat shield infront of them, so until zeal speed is upgraded, marauders own them. The reason you guys keep losing to immortals is you are going tanks.. which is the unit immortals are made to COUNTER. I dont understand how much more clear I can be. Like I said above, its like complaining reavers are too good vs zerglings.
I dont see any top terrans having problems vs protoss, other than Demuslim's complaining, yet he still puts up results vs top protoss's like its nothing.. So you guys must be doing something wrong. dude really. stop posting. and esp double posting. what is your point at saying marauders counter ultras? ofc they do. high hp 22+ dmg/shot units. also ultras suck. and if you think thor/marauder beats evrything in the game then just give your betakey(you have one right?) to someone who actually will play the game instead of making up weird stuff to justify his nonexistant point in forums. and 2 immortals RAPERAPERAPE 3 irauders. esp when in a dropship. they drop, kill 1 marauder while recieving 30-40 dmg shield dmg . kill the other 2 marauders, let shield reg and kill 3 marauders again. but maybe you live in a funny parrallel world where marauders shoot air and do 50dmg/shot thru shields? your total ignorance and total lack of any knowledge while beeing so damn cocky is disturbing. and btw go away with your tourney results. last zotac was PvP final. does it prove anything? no. except that your 2nd post is worthless ofc.
Nice to know your only counter arguments are personal attacks. I was talking SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE POSTERS REPLAYS, his 3 marauders came and the protoss backed away, knowing his immortals would take major damage. Case and point. If his immortals are so damn godly, why didnt he just stay there and do what you said? Cause the protoss isnt stupid and a theorycrafter who thinks immortals kill everything in the game. In a real game situation, 2 immortals in a dropship cant deal with 3 marauders + more coming. Once you add EMP, its not even close.
If you want to be a douche and talk about lack of knowledge, whats your name on bnet/rating? How Credible are you to be talking such shit? You better have a high point total, or at least 1600 like mine (which is low as hell) to be bashing my opinion. I've played many top terrans on the US server like Kawaii, XDs'kiwi, Durr, etc and none of them cry and whine about immortal imbalance as much as the 2-3 guys in this thread. So like I said, work on your game, watch replays and realize you are losing because of things OTHER than "immortal imbalance", like the protoss players just being better than you. Simple as that.
And as I mentioned, Tourney results dont mean anything UNLESS they are 100% in Protoss favor, every game. That is when you look at the matchup and go HMM.. BUT recently, Terrans have been 2:0'ing protoss's, so uhh clearly the matchup must be FINE. Overall tourney results rewards the BEST PLAYERS in ALL MATCHUPS, thats why you see a PvP, Im assuming who you are talking about is White-Ra, who is clearly a deserving winning player and hardly anyone at this time is as dominant as him (even in BW), but that is because of HIM, not because of immortals/him playing Protoss.. THAT is why there is a Protoss in the finals, not because they are "imbalanced".
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Russian Federation85 Posts
On April 14 2010 20:20 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really. when you rush for emp you will have 1 emp with like 4 marauders and4 marines without ANY upgrades when they come with 1-2 immortals + 2-4 zeals+ 2 stalkers and 2 sentries.even if you do a perfect emp they just expo, wait for shields to reg and attack again. T just doesnt have the gas and time to get what they need (their 3 infantry upgrades,emp,support units+tech ) because P just needs 150 gas for his tech and ZERO upgrades and can straight pump away. not to mention that marines get countered by sentries and rauders by immortals. so your whole unit combo is worthless till you teched up and get medivac/tank/ghost support. mind this thread is mostly about early game. fully teched T is fine vs P. stuff is counterable and it comes down to micro,positioning,comp and scouting. but early game the P can do his standart build, aclick and the T even if he does a perfect defense will still be behind.
T:
Barracks 150/0
tech lab 50/25
Ghost Academy 150/50
Ghost 150/150
4x Marauder 4x (100/25)
4x Marines 4x (50/0)
Emp upgrade ? (sorry didn't find it anywhere)
P:
Gateway 150/0
2-4x Zealots 2-4x (100/0)
2x Sentries 2x (50/100)
Core 150/0
2x Stalkers 2x (125/50)
Robobay 200/100
1-2 Immortals 1-2x (250/100)
T
M: 150+50+150+150+400+200 = 1100
G: 25+50+150+100 = 325
P
M: 150 + 200-400 + 100 + 150 + 250+ 200 + 250-500 = 1300-1750
G: 200 + 100 + 100 + 100-200 = 500-600
Sorry i fail to see that T has to go heavier gas as P, either i fail to see that your example the P army is cheaper or i fail to see where T will be behind.
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only problem, if you say its a problem, with immortals is they destroy buildings too fast. if i go FE with tanks, protoss drops 2 immortals and hunt down my supply depots. its hard to counter in early game. rest is just fine.
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On April 14 2010 20:47 Dx Fx wrote:
T:
Barracks 150/0
tech lab 50/25
Ghost Academy 150/50
Ghost 150/150
4x Marauder 4x (100/25)
4x Marines 4x (50/0)
Emp upgrade ? (sorry didn't find it anywhere)
P:
Gateway 150/0
2-4x Zealots 2-4x (100/0)
2x Sentries 2x (50/100)
Core 150/0
2x Stalkers 2x (125/50)
Robobay 200/100
1-2 Immortals 1-2x (250/100)
T
M: 150+50+150+150+400+200 = 1100
G: 25+50+150+100 = 325
P
M: 150 + 200-400 + 100 + 150 + 250+ 200 + 250-500 = 1300-1750
G: 200 + 100 + 100 + 100-200 = 500-600
Sorry i fail to see that T has to go heavier gas as P, either i fail to see that your example the P army is cheaper or i fail to see where T will be behind.
you want to add here another rax + lab ( 200/25 ) and add stimpack 150/150 and concussive shells 100/100 AND the 140+80 game seconds to search both ( these matter more )
without stimpack and shells you won't be able to go toe - to - toe with the protoss, because you can't kill his stalkers ( they run faster so can be microed away and can give the killing blow to terran units ), and immortal still have 200 hp without shield so you can micro it with ease. Not to mention force field, guardian shield, and the fact that the protoss can kill 3 - 4 of your units easily then back & wait shield regeneration.
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On April 14 2010 20:47 Dx Fx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 20:20 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really. when you rush for emp you will have 1 emp with like 4 marauders and4 marines without ANY upgrades when they come with 1-2 immortals + 2-4 zeals+ 2 stalkers and 2 sentries.even if you do a perfect emp they just expo, wait for shields to reg and attack again. T just doesnt have the gas and time to get what they need (their 3 infantry upgrades,emp,support units+tech ) because P just needs 150 gas for his tech and ZERO upgrades and can straight pump away. not to mention that marines get countered by sentries and rauders by immortals. so your whole unit combo is worthless till you teched up and get medivac/tank/ghost support. mind this thread is mostly about early game. fully teched T is fine vs P. stuff is counterable and it comes down to micro,positioning,comp and scouting. but early game the P can do his standart build, aclick and the T even if he does a perfect defense will still be behind. T: Barracks 150/0 tech lab 50/25 Ghost Academy 150/50 Ghost 150/150 4x Marauder 4x (100/25) 4x Marines 4x (50/0) Emp upgrade ? (sorry didn't find it anywhere) P: Gateway 150/0 2-4x Zealots 2-4x (100/0) 2x Sentries 2x (50/100) Core 150/0 2x Stalkers 2x (125/50) Robobay 200/100 1-2 Immortals 1-2x (250/100) T M: 150+50+150+150+400+200 = 1100 G: 25+50+150+100 = 325 P M: 150 + 200-400 + 100 + 150 + 250+ 200 + 250-500 = 1300-1750 G: 200 + 100 + 100 + 100-200 = 500-600 Sorry i fail to see that T has to go heavier gas as P, either i fail to see that your example the P army is cheaper or i fail to see where T will be behind.
That seems to be a naive miscalculation.
4 Marauder + 4 Marines + 1 Ghost = 16 Supply.
2 Sentries + 2 Stalkers + 2 Immortals + 4 Zealots = 24 Supply.
Of course an army with 24 Supply will cost more gas than an army with 16 supply. Assuming that everything is made out of one Rax or Gateway is even more nonsense. To keep up with the unit production of a P you need ~ 3 Rax. I don't need to remind you that you pay Gas for every Addon while Gatways require only minerals, right? But that's not the problem.
BeMannerDuPenner just tried to explain that Protss units are ready as soon as they pop out. No further upgrades required. T on the other hand sits in his base until combat shield (150 gas), stim (150 gas), conc shell (100 gas) and enough Ghosts (each 150 gas) and Medivacs (each 100 gas) are done (I exaggerate of course but you get the point). Really the only Unit that does NOT require gas is the marine which is delayed due to reactor building time.
Oh and by the way: looking for an EMP upgrade ... have you even played Starcraft II once?
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On April 14 2010 20:20 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really. mind this thread is mostly about early game. fully teched T is fine vs P. stuff is counterable and it comes down to micro,positioning,comp and scouting. but early game the P can do his standart build, aclick and the T even if he does a perfect defense will still be behind.
Agreed. When it comes to a map like scrap station or desert oasis, PvT isn't too bad and comes down to skill etc. But on something like Steppes of War... well have fun dealing with protoss abuse and uncontested macro.
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Nerf marauders or Immortals stay the way they are. Simple as that.
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On April 14 2010 22:36 MourningWould wrote:
Nerf marauders or Immortals stay the way they are. Simple as that.
Quoted for truth.
I would agree with the one poster above with the immortals doing lots of dmg to buildings, and maybe that can be fixed, but ONLY vs buildings. And even then, I dont know if I 100% agree with it.. If a terran puts their supplys out for them to be sniped, they deserve to lose them. Not to mention they have supply booster ability as a quick-fix if their supply limit drops lower than current.. Protoss or zerg doesnt have those kind of abilities.
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i think my iq just dropped from reading some of the posts in this topic (especially Skyze )
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Russian Federation85 Posts
On April 14 2010 22:00 yanot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 20:47 Dx Fx wrote:
T:
Barracks 150/0
tech lab 50/25
Ghost Academy 150/50
Ghost 150/150
4x Marauder 4x (100/25)
4x Marines 4x (50/0)
Emp upgrade ? (sorry didn't find it anywhere)
P:
Gateway 150/0
2-4x Zealots 2-4x (100/0)
2x Sentries 2x (50/100)
Core 150/0
2x Stalkers 2x (125/50)
Robobay 200/100
1-2 Immortals 1-2x (250/100)
T
M: 150+50+150+150+400+200 = 1100
G: 25+50+150+100 = 325
P
M: 150 + 200-400 + 100 + 150 + 250+ 200 + 250-500 = 1300-1750
G: 200 + 100 + 100 + 100-200 = 500-600
Sorry i fail to see that T has to go heavier gas as P, either i fail to see that your example the P army is cheaper or i fail to see where T will be behind. you want to add here another rax + lab ( 200/25 ) and add stimpack 150/150 and concussive shells 100/100 AND the 140+80 game seconds to search both ( these matter more ) without stimpack and shells you won't be able to go toe - to - toe with the protoss, because you can't kill his stalkers ( they run faster so can be microed away and can give the killing blow to terran units ), and immortal still have 200 hp without shield so you can micro it with ease. Not to mention force field, guardian shield, and the fact that the protoss can kill 3 - 4 of your units easily then back & wait shield regeneration.
Excuse me? For which reason do you need Stim + Shells and arguing with the higher mobility of the Stalkers vs Marines / Marauders, if you can have an early EMP, which would force, in your description, a retreat of the P army (to recharge shields , in this case 50+ sec). I don't know but in the my definition of successful defending the early immortal push it's a full success. Do you expect A-moving free win situations?
Assuming that P would be able to snipe 3-4 units and you wouldn't be able to kill anything off, and he would be able to retreat (don't forget zealots are in the front and if they start running they will receive a lot of free hits) without any loses, is kinda blunt.
Anyway Marauders have higher range and the same speed as Immortals, Zealot. So actually Marauders can "run" away from Zealots / Immortals by getting max 1 free hit on them, while it doesn't work other way round + As a lot of different Persons stated already, Marauders stats are untouched.
On April 14 2010 22:02 Toolshed wrote:
That seems to be a naive miscalculation.
4 Marauder + 4 Marines + 1 Ghost = 16 Supply.
2 Sentries + 2 Stalkers + 2 Immortals + 4 Zealots = 24 Supply.
Of course an army with 24 Supply will cost more gas than an army with 16 supply. Assuming that everything is made out of one Rax or Gateway is even more nonsense. To keep up with the unit production of a P you need ~ 3 Rax. I don't need to remind you that you pay Gas for every Addon while Gatways require only minerals, right? But that's not the problem.
BeMannerDuPenner just tried to explain that Protss units are ready as soon as they pop out. No further upgrades required. T on the other hand sits in his base until combat shield (150 gas), stim (150 gas), conc shell (100 gas) and enough Ghosts (each 150 gas) and Medivacs (each 100 gas) are done (I exaggerate of course but you get the point). Really the only Unit that does NOT require gas is the marine which is delayed due to reactor building time.
Oh and by the way: looking for an EMP upgrade ... have you even played Starcraft II once?
Of course this is an naive assumption, but that's the only way to compare this without exaggerating it into a lot of bullshit. I ignore completely the Psi count and the necessary depots + resource income = not able to build all at once = different timing => assuming that both will have all that, which the BeManner says, at the same time (with the minimal time effort) and which conclusions he makes out of it and i simple said that what he stated doesn't even apply in a vacuum. Otherwise anyone could says Drone's are imbalanced: "They can kill an Ultralisk?!??!?!"... of course they can, if it's at 1 hp and get backstabbed.
Why do you mix up mid-late game stuff with early stuff. Anyway this are optional upgrades which shall make your life easier. And saying that you need this upgrades to stand a chance,especially early, is not that good. Instead of getting the upgrades you can get more Ghosts which would be much more of an use as early Stim or Shield vs Protoss. Early Charge upgrade won't give you any significant benefits if you have 1 zealot running around, same applies to shield / stim.
As bonus to emp Ghosts deal 20 dmg to Sentry / Zealot at a range of 6.
The emp upgrade was a gimmick attack on him due his "T need sooooo much early one and toss can go one unit to stomp on us (exaggerated)", but i guess it failed to be recognized as one...
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I keep trying to explain this and I'll explain it again. Emp is not ready for the first push. If you invested in emp that early you're going to at worst die and at best be contained, at which point he has 2 options, get a prism and start dropping, or get a pylon outside your main and start warping in mass sentry to force field your ramp every time you think you can move out. There's no way you can emp that many sentries, so saying emp counters that is retarded.
The fact that there's an immortal out on the field so fast makes it virtually impossible not be contained unless you went pure marauder from 3 rax, which of course leads to you being dropped all day and night, so you get contained anyways.
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On April 14 2010 18:20 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 17:22 Mente wrote:On April 14 2010 17:18 Skyze wrote:
I feel like I am playing a totally different game than you guys.. and im only 1600 Platinum on US server. but geez.. Terran DOMINATES me 9 times out of 10.
I lost to three guys today who went banshee harass into mass banshee/marauder/ghost.. and it wasnt even a challenge. I had at least 8 immortal/mass stalker/sentry and speedlots, and they would all die in seconds. If I did happen to kill the marauder army (which was only one game out of 3), then the cloakd banshees with 2 vikings/raven to kill obs in seconds, just owned everything I had. 5 banshees can own everything a protoss has except phoenix's, and if you have to get a starport/phoenix's that significantly reduces your time to produce immortals/units to counter the incredibly lame marauders.
Seriously.. How are you guys losing to the most basic Protoss "push"? Marauders/ghost + anything else mixed in totally dominates it.
My take on the balance is the game is pretty damn close, but marauders need a stat reduction, at least HP nerf or damage nerf. they are fucking crazy! Watch the replays I posted or post some of your own cause we probably are playing a different game. edit: Mez if you read this I'd like to try some more builds I'm thinking of against you if you're down for it later. sleep time now though I watched your replays man. I think you could of won at least 3 of those games, just micro. Like the one where you sent marauders to his base when he got the prism.. You WALKED into his probes, he didnt surround you, and your army should of been able to take his army easily if you didnt make that mistake. The fast reaper game, you shoulda got at least 3-4 probes but you attacked the PYLON?? wow. No wonder. The Banshee game where you fast expo'd to the island, You held his 3gate+immortals off with a super fast expo and 1 starport banshee with no marauders.. Just imagine what would of happened if you got marauders instead of marines, or 2starport banshees? He would of been tapping out in seconds. And last but not least, the thing that bugs me the most, the game where hes on 12 and your on 3, he does prism 2immortal harassing.. You try to fend it off with marine/tank again, the EXACT units Immortals are made to counter. As soon as you have 3 marauders there, he flys away because he knows 3 marauder > 2 immortals.. Yet you chose marines/tanks the whole earlygame therefor losing at least 1000 minerals in being outmicroed/bad unit combos. You said its worse than reavers, well the equivilant of going marine/tank vs immortal drop is like going mass zerglings vs reaver drop and expecting to win, when 3 hydras can take it out. Im starting to think this is merely a testament to Mezmerize being such a better player than the terrans hes playing in these replays (from the OP and Mente), that is why he is winning with ease. It would be the same as if I went against Demuslim in 5 PvT's, I would get owned everygame with ease.. Does that mean Terran is way better than toss?? No. Its just the players playing have a large skill gap. Someone hook up Mezmerize vs Demuslim or any top terran like LZ on US server, and I doubt the results will be similar.
I've killed 3 probes and oh boy does that prevent them from winning when the build I do puts me behind economically to begin with. I admitted though that it was a micro blunder.
Also with no slowing effect I can't kite his probes with marauders so that plan is dead.
And in reference to the banshee game I sacrificed a huge amount of tech and economy I was not on solid footing even with micro.
Keep in mind it costs gas and time to build marauders from putting on the tech lab to building them to making them which slows down my other tech.
He probably is a better player than me as, like I said in my post, "I haven't seen this kind of play in ladder". He told me that nobody has CONSISTENTLY beaten his builds. That implies he screwed up multiple times in a game and cost him 1 game. Awesome.
Like I said I'm down but I'm not out.
Edit: also that you think my 3 marauder defense vs his drop was enough to hold off 2 immortals is laughable. 2 immortals practically 1 shot marauders.... and with the warp prism giving them improved energy regen how can you argue that? We're obviously playing a different game entirely.
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On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really.
I do not think you are getting it. Do you think you are so smart enough to suggest that top terrans are not getting EMP? They are. And with it there are sooooo many instances where you still get steamrolled.
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hi!
ive not read all post..
but protoss has a doubled apm, compared to terran..
its just the speed..as in sc1
greetings!!
P.S.: cant believe to play gainst wc3 players :D
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Floop, if you don't mind, would you mind telling me roughly what Morrow's FE build is? Is it roughly similar to this build?
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/link/0/socrates-vs-azz-1271267243.php)
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/link/0/socrates-vs-azz-1271267224.php)
and
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/link/0/socrates-vs-azz-1271267190.php)
I'm asking, because this build deals with Immortals just fine and iirc, it's similar to Morrow's build. Yet you said Morrow's build just gets destroyed by the push. I'm just trying to find the best transition after defending the first push. Also, another strategy that I've found useful that people may have already mentioned is going 5 Reapers, harassing the Protoss, then switching to Marauders + EMP quickly, and stay in your base and don't expand until the Protoss expands. Hopefully, your harass will kill enough so that you can mass up your army and keep the Protoss flustered. Azz agreed that this is also a pretty good strategy for the Terran to use.
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I should do some testing tonight regarding 1 rax FE variants. I believe it might be viable vs a toss who does not exploit its weaknesses (think 1 rax FE in BW). However given no superior alternatives I might go as far as to say it might be the most viable FE build right now if it does in fact work. I do believe it is weak though, perhaps not to the immortal push, but to other strategies which protoss can easily switch to upon scouting the build. I'll update when I have replays.
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I would say nerf immortals but as the unholy trinity goes weakening one just presents a whole new set of challenges for the other races tinity member stomping the other race. Rather I'd like to see a unit transformed into a role to better answer immortal but less effective on other units, maybe give hellions an ability that drains hardened shields quickly? Like a flame pulse that does 10 dmg over and over again till it reaches 100 dmg to just one unit, napalm pre-coating? It might revitalize mech play a little vs protoss.
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On April 13 2010 23:43 Floophead_III wrote:Hey Floophead, I feel kind of bad for not recognizing the real problem. I know what you really need. I heard you can get some at this site: http://www.tampax.com/en-US/home/home.aspx
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On April 15 2010 07:57 abominare wrote:
I would say nerf immortals but as the unholy trinity goes weakening one just presents a whole new set of challenges for the other races tinity member stomping the other race. Rather I'd like to see a unit transformed into a role to better answer immortal but less effective on other units, maybe give hellions an ability that drains hardened shields quickly? Like a flame pulse that does 10 dmg over and over again till it reaches 100 dmg to just one unit, napalm pre-coating? It might revitalize mech play a little vs protoss.
Be wary of single-purpose abilities lest you create another Hardened Shield (yes, Hardened Shield works against more than just Siege Tanks, but I don't think that there is too much doubt that Hardened Shield was designed as a direct middle finger to Siege Tanks, especially considering that Thors, the other unit majorly affected by the shield, have the 250mm Barrage that can deal with the shield).
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Ok, just found and tested a strategy that gives easy wins vs any protoss that immortal pushes without scouting and changing strategy. Build 3 rax and get upgrades in this order: attack upgrade, stim, shield upgrade. All gas goes to getting marine upgrades and 1 ghost. When the protoss attacks, you'll have attack and stim and easily defend against his attack, especially if you emp most of his forces. If he doesn't attack, then wait for shield upgrade to finish and go attack him, while slowly teching to medivacs and vikings. Upgraded 1-1 marines with both tech lab upgrades beat all gateway units and immortals. The only problem you'll have with this strat is vs colossus.
Marines are vastly vastly underestimated. Mass upgraded marines + ghost can easily defend a ramp and break even fighting on open ground. The only problem is marines build slow as molasses, so you need lots of barracks to keep up with production. Why make marauders or tanks when they die in 3 hits, the same as a marine? Right now I'm just fine tuning this strategy to account for switches to colo and templar tech.
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On April 15 2010 06:58 Prozen wrote:Floop, if you don't mind, would you mind telling me roughly what Morrow's FE build is? Is it roughly similar to this build? and I'm asking, because this build deals with Immortals just fine and iirc, it's similar to Morrow's build. Yet you said Morrow's build just gets destroyed by the push. I'm just trying to find the best transition after defending the first push. Also, another strategy that I've found useful that people may have already mentioned is going 5 Reapers, harassing the Protoss, then switching to Marauders + EMP quickly, and stay in your base and don't expand until the Protoss expands. Hopefully, your harass will kill enough so that you can mass up your army and keep the Protoss flustered. Azz agreed that this is also a pretty good strategy for the Terran to use.
those games prove nothing azz played bad in 2 of them (especially in last one)
he wasted like 1 minute and shitload of units to kill 1 supply above the choke (wtf was he warping units under fire of marauders and marines lol) while he could just push and destroy the bunkers
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On April 15 2010 19:49 newbcake wrote:
Ok, just found and tested a strategy that gives easy wins vs any protoss that immortal pushes without scouting and changing strategy. Build 3 rax and get upgrades in this order: attack upgrade, stim, shield upgrade. All gas goes to getting marine upgrades and 1 ghost. When the protoss attacks, you'll have attack and stim and easily defend against his attack, especially if you emp most of his forces. If he doesn't attack, then wait for shield upgrade to finish and go attack him, while slowly teching to medivacs and vikings. Upgraded 1-1 marines with both tech lab upgrades beat all gateway units and immortals. The only problem you'll have with this strat is vs colossus.
Marines are vastly vastly underestimated. Mass upgraded marines + ghost can easily defend a ramp and break even fighting on open ground. The only problem is marines build slow as molasses, so you need lots of barracks to keep up with production. Why make marauders or tanks when they die in 3 hits, the same as a marine? Right now I'm just fine tuning this strategy to account for switches to colo and templar tech.
Marines are not vastly underestimated in TvP. We terran players aren't fools, and we're massing marauders out of necessity, not because they're imbalanced.
There are two huge flaws with what you've proposed:
1) Guardian shield. Since most protoss units have one armor, you are cutting the effectiveness of your entire army by 3/5. That's pretty terrible.
2) Collossi. So let's say your force is too much for the protoss to handle with his 4-gate timing push or fast immortals. Why should the protoss throw units away? He can just run away, make 1 or 2 collossi, and you'll regret making all of those marines.
Anyway, for what it's worth, I feel the same sentiment as the original poster. I really wanna stick with Terran, but I feel like we've got the shaft right now, that's for sure.
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I normally dismiss Floophead out of hand, since he is a bit of a "run to the forums" type of player IMO.
HOWEVER, I had a game recently that already had me doing a lot of thinking about the TvP matchup. I macrod perfectly, got the FE, held the first 3 pushes from my toss opponent. Literally it was the finest game I've ever played as terran. I had the ghosts always in time for the next push, had a good mix, was working out of 3 barracks and added a factory pumping some hellions while I teched to vikings/medivacs.
Fourth push, I made literally one mistake on micro, accidentally sent my marines forward two steps when I meant to click attack a zealot. I lost 2 marines I shouln't have, and that turned a perfectly played game into a total route. My opponent played sloppy and made mistake after mistake, had bad macro, less economy, never properly made use of force field or guardian shield, but because he was able to get the immortals with no early pressure to bleed his numbers, he could just keep warping in some more stalkers and zealots, rally an immortal from his base, and trade about even with me, unless my micro was bad, in which case he just rolled.
Even watching the replay after, I made literally just the one mistake, and that was all it took to get crushed by a lesser opponent who knew enough to just keep the pressure coming.
Something is off with this matchup. Maybe the marauder nerf was the right move, but now I feel like there's got to be a counter move, so that terran has a chance to compete without the advantage of that early marauder push.
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On April 16 2010 15:09 Slurgi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 19:49 newbcake wrote:
Ok, just found and tested a strategy that gives easy wins vs any protoss that immortal pushes without scouting and changing strategy. Build 3 rax and get upgrades in this order: attack upgrade, stim, shield upgrade. All gas goes to getting marine upgrades and 1 ghost. When the protoss attacks, you'll have attack and stim and easily defend against his attack, especially if you emp most of his forces. If he doesn't attack, then wait for shield upgrade to finish and go attack him, while slowly teching to medivacs and vikings. Upgraded 1-1 marines with both tech lab upgrades beat all gateway units and immortals. The only problem you'll have with this strat is vs colossus.
Marines are vastly vastly underestimated. Mass upgraded marines + ghost can easily defend a ramp and break even fighting on open ground. The only problem is marines build slow as molasses, so you need lots of barracks to keep up with production. Why make marauders or tanks when they die in 3 hits, the same as a marine? Right now I'm just fine tuning this strategy to account for switches to colo and templar tech. Marines are not vastly underestimated in TvP. We terran players aren't fools, and we're massing marauders out of necessity, not because they're imbalanced. There are two huge flaws with what you've proposed: 1) Guardian shield. Since most protoss units have one armor, you are cutting the effectiveness of your entire army by 3/5. That's pretty terrible. 2) Collossi. So let's say your force is too much for the protoss to handle with his 4-gate timing push or fast immortals. Why should the protoss throw units away? He can just run away, make 1 or 2 collossi, and you'll regret making all of those marines. Anyway, for what it's worth, I feel the same sentiment as the original poster. I really wanna stick with Terran, but I feel like we've got the shaft right now, that's for sure.
In addition stalkers actually can hit and run vs marines very easily, so toss could in theory hit and run all the way back to his base. If you want to stim you might kill a couple stalkers but without medivacs that's going to really weaken you for the full engagement. It's no different than dragoons in BW vs marines really.
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On April 16 2010 16:04 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 15:09 Slurgi wrote:On April 15 2010 19:49 newbcake wrote:
Ok, just found and tested a strategy that gives easy wins vs any protoss that immortal pushes without scouting and changing strategy. Build 3 rax and get upgrades in this order: attack upgrade, stim, shield upgrade. All gas goes to getting marine upgrades and 1 ghost. When the protoss attacks, you'll have attack and stim and easily defend against his attack, especially if you emp most of his forces. If he doesn't attack, then wait for shield upgrade to finish and go attack him, while slowly teching to medivacs and vikings. Upgraded 1-1 marines with both tech lab upgrades beat all gateway units and immortals. The only problem you'll have with this strat is vs colossus.
Marines are vastly vastly underestimated. Mass upgraded marines + ghost can easily defend a ramp and break even fighting on open ground. The only problem is marines build slow as molasses, so you need lots of barracks to keep up with production. Why make marauders or tanks when they die in 3 hits, the same as a marine? Right now I'm just fine tuning this strategy to account for switches to colo and templar tech. Marines are not vastly underestimated in TvP. We terran players aren't fools, and we're massing marauders out of necessity, not because they're imbalanced. There are two huge flaws with what you've proposed: 1) Guardian shield. Since most protoss units have one armor, you are cutting the effectiveness of your entire army by 3/5. That's pretty terrible. 2) Collossi. So let's say your force is too much for the protoss to handle with his 4-gate timing push or fast immortals. Why should the protoss throw units away? He can just run away, make 1 or 2 collossi, and you'll regret making all of those marines. Anyway, for what it's worth, I feel the same sentiment as the original poster. I really wanna stick with Terran, but I feel like we've got the shaft right now, that's for sure. In addition stalkers actually can hit and run vs marines very easily, so toss could in theory hit and run all the way back to his base. If you want to stim you might kill a couple stalkers but without medivacs that's going to really weaken you for the full engagement. It's no different than dragoons in BW vs marines really.
Stalkers are quite a bit more expensive than a marine, and a half tier higher in tech. I would certainly hope they were at least able to retreat from marines if met with a loosing engagement. Do you think zealots should win handily against marauders with no support? That clearly isn't the case. Why then should marines destroy stalkers?
I'm guessing there is some underlying assumption of sentries that i'm not seeing here. I think you should stick with the stronger case for balance (immortals) here. Claming your marines loose to stalkers isn't going to impress anyone. I understand if you're frustrated and want to vent, but seriously, this thread and the other one are already saturated with this stuff and your claims have gone from well-founded to silly.
Still waiting on you to post more replays aswell.
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FE to an island or in-between 2 sets of D. Rocks
How about FE with a PF and 1-2 Bunkers?
Immortals and Marauders +armored damage is too much V buildings:
16 Marauder hits to kill a Cannon
9 Immortal hits to kill a Bunker
4 Marauders with Medivac escort will take down a Nexus in 78 seconds using Stim
2 Immortals will take down a CC in 22.2 seconds
Its hard to spend resources on defence or building blocks when each race has a super building razer
Taking away the armored modifier on all buildings (excepting PFs) and having them listed as just structures could change PvT overuse of Marauders/Immortals
Banshees Void Rays DT Archons BCs Tanks Thors would be the building busters
Stalkers deal less damage with armored mod removed but Blink is for units
Tanks lose damage V buildings in track mode but deal full damage in siege mode
Flying buildings might need to regain armored mod because Stalkers would take quite a while to kill them
OL/OSs could also have armored mod removed (Vikings and Stalkers dealing extra damage to Zerg food is kinda unfair considering they only have 200HP)
Lack of Tank use in PvT is a bit of a downer
Head on it would be suicide for Tanks to engage Immortals
But with high-ground Watch Towers Medivac transport and building/air spotters Tanks should have a defined role in Sc2
2 Medivacs 2 Tanks 1 Ghost 3 SCVs 3 Marines = 1050M 650G task force or if that's too much add 1SCV/Marine and take away the Ghost (1000M 500G)
Immortals could use a +10BT because of Chrono Boosting and Marauders +25G increase (if slow would still effect light units)
Terrans just need to try new strats V Toss
How about using Ghosts with Medivac escort to kill workers - 8 Snipes + 2-shot worker Kills = a lot of economic damage by the time Toss reacts
Or if Toss opponent has an army stationed by his resources Cloak + 6 Snipes
Ravens Missiles used V Immortals/HT/Colossus takes away a lot of Toss's army strength AT-drops should also see more usage V workers and PDDs used if Toss goes Stalker mad
What ever happened to the Sc1 scan and snipe V Observers? With 9R Vikings sniping Obs should be pretty easy
Followed by Cloaked Ghost/Banshees and Toss would be forced to retreat or get more Obs
BCs with a few Ravens for PDDs could work but watch out for Feedback
Marines with Tank support can benefit each other - Marines spot for Tanks 13R and take down Immortals shields Tanks target Sentries/Stalkers/Zealots until Immortal shields are downed - micro intensive
Marauders using slow on Toss allows Tanks to get the max number of shots before having to unseize
Early Banshees on T high ground with a ramp block and SCV support should be viable V an early Immortal push
Gateway C. Core Robo builds are almost standard in PvT because Toss air/Colossus are super weak to Vikings
9R is too good for the versatile cheep massible Viking without a T3 upgrade (7R with +2R upgrade at Fusion Core)
V Terran the Phoenix's only change needs to be Graviton Beams range increased to 6 (BCs are not common so Phoenixs puny damage is alright)
Void Rays - Give them back their original 6 12 24 charged attack to justify +50M -1A nerf
Carriers - Vikings supreme range + 24 damage MTs with upgrades for 8R and 2A + Thors 48 0.5 splash 10R damage V Interceptors + Marines = Carriers useless V T
Give Carriers back their ability to move-attack even at a watered down version from Sc1 - Interceptors might need a HP/SP buff +50M(400M) for Carriers to start with 8 I's is another option
MS - needs a complete do-over
500M 500G 180BT attack 10X10 R7 normal ROF 400HP 600SP 2A movement speed = normal
10R Cloak is its only ability
Damage does not overkill - excess shots will automatically be redirected to its next target
Marines do face a hindrance with Guardian Shield and the 1A all but Probes/HT ground forces start with
4/3 damage (4/2 with ground armor1 or 3/3 with shields1) might seem puny but for cost Marines still beat Sentries/Stalkers
Sentry 80 health 1A 8DPS = 3 Marines 135 health 4.7DPS(3) V shields 3.5DPS(3) [G-Shield included in calculations]
Stalker 160 health 1A +1R 5.56DPS V above Marine stats
Marine BT for producing a single unit should revert back to 20 but if an Reactor is used 25BT is reasonable
Terrans might have to get 2 gas instead of just 1 gas for Marauder/Marines if the Immortal/Sentry push becomes standardized in PvT
Mix your tactics up and hopefully Toss and Zerg will follow suit
That's about all I have to say for PvT (I'm so proud I only mentioned Zerg once indirectly/directly )
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On April 16 2010 16:42 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 16:04 Floophead_III wrote:On April 16 2010 15:09 Slurgi wrote:On April 15 2010 19:49 newbcake wrote:
Ok, just found and tested a strategy that gives easy wins vs any protoss that immortal pushes without scouting and changing strategy. Build 3 rax and get upgrades in this order: attack upgrade, stim, shield upgrade. All gas goes to getting marine upgrades and 1 ghost. When the protoss attacks, you'll have attack and stim and easily defend against his attack, especially if you emp most of his forces. If he doesn't attack, then wait for shield upgrade to finish and go attack him, while slowly teching to medivacs and vikings. Upgraded 1-1 marines with both tech lab upgrades beat all gateway units and immortals. The only problem you'll have with this strat is vs colossus.
Marines are vastly vastly underestimated. Mass upgraded marines + ghost can easily defend a ramp and break even fighting on open ground. The only problem is marines build slow as molasses, so you need lots of barracks to keep up with production. Why make marauders or tanks when they die in 3 hits, the same as a marine? Right now I'm just fine tuning this strategy to account for switches to colo and templar tech. Marines are not vastly underestimated in TvP. We terran players aren't fools, and we're massing marauders out of necessity, not because they're imbalanced. There are two huge flaws with what you've proposed: 1) Guardian shield. Since most protoss units have one armor, you are cutting the effectiveness of your entire army by 3/5. That's pretty terrible. 2) Collossi. So let's say your force is too much for the protoss to handle with his 4-gate timing push or fast immortals. Why should the protoss throw units away? He can just run away, make 1 or 2 collossi, and you'll regret making all of those marines. Anyway, for what it's worth, I feel the same sentiment as the original poster. I really wanna stick with Terran, but I feel like we've got the shaft right now, that's for sure. In addition stalkers actually can hit and run vs marines very easily, so toss could in theory hit and run all the way back to his base. If you want to stim you might kill a couple stalkers but without medivacs that's going to really weaken you for the full engagement. It's no different than dragoons in BW vs marines really. Stalkers are quite a bit more expensive than a marine, and a half tier higher in tech. I would certainly hope they were at least able to retreat from marines if met with a loosing engagement. Do you think zealots should win handily against marauders with no support? That clearly isn't the case. Why then should marines destroy stalkers? I'm guessing there is some underlying assumption of sentries that i'm not seeing here. I think you should stick with the stronger case for balance (immortals) here. Claming your marines loose to stalkers isn't going to impress anyone. I understand if you're frustrated and want to vent, but seriously, this thread and the other one are already saturated with this stuff and your claims have gone from well-founded to silly. Still waiting on you to post more replays aswell.
problems with marines are:
1. they lose vs anything out of the warpgate early. zealots beat em straight up,stalkers too.
2. they need shields and stim to be effective.none of the P units "need" em to put up a fight.
3. they build time is downrght retarded (kneejerk "fix" by blizzard cause marine/scv allins were too strong)
4. sentries reduce marines dmg by 1/3.
5. P can just wait till he has storm/collosi and kill 50 marines with aclick or 3 storms.
and considering whole factory tech gets countered by immortals there really isnt much left.
so T has to go mass marauder which again fight a uphill battle vs standart gate+immortal aclick action.
tvp is broken right now.it was broken already pre patch8 but early rauder aggression overshadowed all the flaws the matchup has.
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None of the P units "get" upgrades (asside from hallucinate) until t2. Comparing those to tech lab upgrades isn't quite a fair asessment. And marines should loose to zealots (if they are attacking) in the same way zealots alone should loose to marines defending. It really depends on position, numbers, choke point, bunkers, and any number of other factors, but yes, if you a-move some zeals and marines together in an open field, i'd reckon the marines were fucked.
I'll grant you the marine "kneejerk," didn't seem thought out, but they did what they had to do in order to stop scv rushing. Hopefully they correct this with some kind of compromise buff to reactors or marines. That being said, you don't seem to place a lot of faith in large numbers of marines either...
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On April 16 2010 17:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 16:42 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 16 2010 16:04 Floophead_III wrote:On April 16 2010 15:09 Slurgi wrote:On April 15 2010 19:49 newbcake wrote:
Ok, just found and tested a strategy that gives easy wins vs any protoss that immortal pushes without scouting and changing strategy. Build 3 rax and get upgrades in this order: attack upgrade, stim, shield upgrade. All gas goes to getting marine upgrades and 1 ghost. When the protoss attacks, you'll have attack and stim and easily defend against his attack, especially if you emp most of his forces. If he doesn't attack, then wait for shield upgrade to finish and go attack him, while slowly teching to medivacs and vikings. Upgraded 1-1 marines with both tech lab upgrades beat all gateway units and immortals. The only problem you'll have with this strat is vs colossus.
Marines are vastly vastly underestimated. Mass upgraded marines + ghost can easily defend a ramp and break even fighting on open ground. The only problem is marines build slow as molasses, so you need lots of barracks to keep up with production. Why make marauders or tanks when they die in 3 hits, the same as a marine? Right now I'm just fine tuning this strategy to account for switches to colo and templar tech. Marines are not vastly underestimated in TvP. We terran players aren't fools, and we're massing marauders out of necessity, not because they're imbalanced. There are two huge flaws with what you've proposed: 1) Guardian shield. Since most protoss units have one armor, you are cutting the effectiveness of your entire army by 3/5. That's pretty terrible. 2) Collossi. So let's say your force is too much for the protoss to handle with his 4-gate timing push or fast immortals. Why should the protoss throw units away? He can just run away, make 1 or 2 collossi, and you'll regret making all of those marines. Anyway, for what it's worth, I feel the same sentiment as the original poster. I really wanna stick with Terran, but I feel like we've got the shaft right now, that's for sure. In addition stalkers actually can hit and run vs marines very easily, so toss could in theory hit and run all the way back to his base. If you want to stim you might kill a couple stalkers but without medivacs that's going to really weaken you for the full engagement. It's no different than dragoons in BW vs marines really. Stalkers are quite a bit more expensive than a marine, and a half tier higher in tech. I would certainly hope they were at least able to retreat from marines if met with a loosing engagement. Do you think zealots should win handily against marauders with no support? That clearly isn't the case. Why then should marines destroy stalkers? I'm guessing there is some underlying assumption of sentries that i'm not seeing here. I think you should stick with the stronger case for balance (immortals) here. Claming your marines loose to stalkers isn't going to impress anyone. I understand if you're frustrated and want to vent, but seriously, this thread and the other one are already saturated with this stuff and your claims have gone from well-founded to silly. Still waiting on you to post more replays aswell. problems with marines are: 1. they lose vs anything out of the warpgate early. zealots beat em straight up,stalkers too. 2. they need shields and stim to be effective.none of the P units "need" em to put up a fight. 3. they build time is downrght retarded (kneejerk "fix" by blizzard cause marine/scv allins were too strong) 4. sentries reduce marines dmg by 1/3. 5. P can just wait till he has storm/collosi and kill 50 marines with aclick or 3 storms. and considering whole factory tech gets countered by immortals there really isnt much left. so T has to go mass marauder which again fight a uphill battle vs standart gate+immortal aclick action. tvp is broken right now.it was broken already pre patch8 but early rauder aggression overshadowed all the flaws the matchup has.
Marines are very cheap and of course they are supposed to lose to zealots and stalkers straight up. Zealots cost twice as much and stalkers cost even more. They need shields and stim, but do not underestimate the power of the shields and stim. Stim increases dps by a huge amount and the shield is almost a 25% increase in hp. Build time is retarded, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Sentries do reduce damage by a large amount, but they're pretty weak and easy to focus fire down. If you let your marines sit under 3 storms there's something seriously wrong with your micro...but either way marines are really more of a support/extra dps unit in SC2 than anything else.
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On April 16 2010 17:17 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
None of the P units "get" upgrades (asside from hallucinate) until t2. Comparing those to tech lab upgrades isn't quite a fair asessment. And marines should loose to zealots (if they are attacking) in the same way zealots alone should loose to marines defending. It really depends on position, numbers, choke point, bunkers, and any number of other factors, but yes, if you a-move some zeals and marines together in an open field, i'd reckon the marines were fucked.
I'll grant you the marine "kneejerk," didn't seem thought out, but they did what they had to do in order to stop scv rushing. Hopefully they correct this with some kind of compromise buff to reactors or marines. That being said, you don't seem to place a lot of faith in large numbers of marines either...
yea because unlike terran toss has most of his "upgrades" already done for free.
dont worry in next patch u will get your upgrades, im sure they will do something with immortal and sentry.
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I just watched that and yea he was being overly sensitive and BM but he was right that the first push you did was pretty bad.
You traded
2 collosi
5 stalkers
4 zealots
2 immortals
1 sentry
for
6 marauders
2 tanks
1 scv
1 turret building
+ some emp energy (he still had a few emps left after that though)
Other than that I don't think you dominated him or anything, you caught him out of position and pushed which pretty much won the game.
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The fact that he feels its necessary to post things like that only prove his immaturity. I BM'd cause it was amusing, but he beat me cause I played badly, that's all. I definitely was surprised by the effectiveness of mass coli, and perhaps adding in a fair number of thors would be a strong choice if I see that type of army composition. Coli take 9 tank hits to kill, but tanks take 4 coli shots, so when you have mass vs mass colis seem to be stronger. I was definitely caught with terrible positioning and had miserably bad control there.
His first push was oddly timed and poorly executed, but I don't think he could've done any real damage with it. I ended up with an army advantage and a faster expo. I probably could've even pushed up more soon after and taken a very fast 3rd.
I think the build was actually pretty effective. I'm definitely shying away from marines due to guardian shield and marauders have better hp per cost which is important because you need a meatshield for tanks to be effective. Also they have better range.
I think perhaps actually doing a 1-2 bunker 1 rax 1 fact fast ghost expo might be possible. My only concern is immortal drops but perhaps I can have turrets in time for that. I'd need to play more to see.
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On April 19 2010 07:30 Floophead_III wrote:
The fact that he feels its necessary to post things like that only prove his immaturity. I BM'd cause it was amusing, but he beat me cause I played badly, that's all. I definitely was surprised by the effectiveness of mass coli, and perhaps adding in a fair number of thors would be a strong choice if I see that type of army composition. Coli take 9 tank hits to kill, but tanks take 4 coli shots, so when you have mass vs mass colis seem to be stronger. I was definitely caught with terrible positioning and had miserably bad control there.
His first push was oddly timed and poorly executed, but I don't think he could've done any real damage with it. I ended up with an army advantage and a faster expo. I probably could've even pushed up more soon after and taken a very fast 3rd.
I think the build was actually pretty effective. I'm definitely shying away from marines due to guardian shield and marauders have better hp per cost which is important because you need a meatshield for tanks to be effective. Also they have better range.
I think perhaps actually doing a 1-2 bunker 1 rax 1 fact fast ghost expo might be possible. My only concern is immortal drops but perhaps I can have turrets in time for that. I'd need to play more to see.
besides orb randomly coming into the thread and posting a replay with bm chat in it to derail the thread...
You won't be able to do a 1-2bunker fast ghost expo like that and defend from drops. It's one or the other, and you need 5-7 bunkers, not 2, as 3-4 immortals and mass gateway units push will rip through your bunkers, even if you were to try to repair they forcefield around the bunkers making that impossible.
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Do you have a particular reason for saying that? Provide some reasoning or evidence to back that statement up since I hardly believe you need 5-7 bunkers. Tanks demolish gateway units in siege mode, and emps should handle immortals fine. It's not like the tanks are sitting out in the middle of the open to be pancaked. Positioning is still the #1 factor in making something like this work.
Tell me why you think the 3 warpgate immortal aggression would beat this please before jumping to conclusions.
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On April 19 2010 09:02 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 07:30 Floophead_III wrote:
The fact that he feels its necessary to post things like that only prove his immaturity. I BM'd cause it was amusing, but he beat me cause I played badly, that's all. I definitely was surprised by the effectiveness of mass coli, and perhaps adding in a fair number of thors would be a strong choice if I see that type of army composition. Coli take 9 tank hits to kill, but tanks take 4 coli shots, so when you have mass vs mass colis seem to be stronger. I was definitely caught with terrible positioning and had miserably bad control there.
His first push was oddly timed and poorly executed, but I don't think he could've done any real damage with it. I ended up with an army advantage and a faster expo. I probably could've even pushed up more soon after and taken a very fast 3rd.
I think the build was actually pretty effective. I'm definitely shying away from marines due to guardian shield and marauders have better hp per cost which is important because you need a meatshield for tanks to be effective. Also they have better range.
I think perhaps actually doing a 1-2 bunker 1 rax 1 fact fast ghost expo might be possible. My only concern is immortal drops but perhaps I can have turrets in time for that. I'd need to play more to see. besides orb randomly coming into the thread and posting a replay with bm chat in it to derail the thread... You won't be able to do a 1-2bunker fast ghost expo like that and defend from drops. It's one or the other, and you need 5-7 bunkers, not 2, as 3-4 immortals and mass gateway units push will rip through your bunkers, even if you were to try to repair they forcefield around the bunkers making that impossible.
Pretty much did it cause he came into my thread and posted a link to the tampax website saying that's what he thought I needed despite his thread being a whine thread while my thread was backed up by mathematics and solid replays
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-orb- vs floophead BO9 GO
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On April 19 2010 09:54 EmeraldSparks wrote:
-orb- vs floophead BO9 GO
Done. He'll dodge though. Kid is all talk no walk.
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On April 19 2010 10:08 Floophead_III wrote:Done. He'll dodge though. Kid is all talk no walk.
All talk no walk, funny how I just schooled you and the rep is above.
gg 2 ez
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Funny how above that there's a rep of me schooling you.
gg 2 ez.
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You nerds should just have a showmatch already lol.
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Hahah I watched the replay. Some hilarious shit. I don't understand why floop didn't get any vikings to take out the colossi. What a nub.
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On April 19 2010 11:23 Smoyf wrote:
Hahah I watched the replay. Some hilarious shit. I don't understand why floop didn't get any vikings to take out the colossi. What a nub.
I didn't know how good mass colossi were vs mass tanks given the outcome of his first attack. Yes, it was a "nub mistake". I actually think thors might be a better option seeing as they absorb coli hits whereas vikings won't actually protect your tanks. Also you already have factories so it's a lot easier to make the switch. And thors are awesome. Who the hell doesn't like thors?
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You should be thanking orb for bumping your thread.
This thing should have died a long time ago.
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Immortals don't like thors. And when an immortal doesn't like an armored unit you know what happens to them! That's the point of this thread after all!
Oh and Vikings have 9 range! It's tough to counter them as toss since if we blink our stalkers up ahead to take out the vikings all the stalkers get ownt by your ground force.
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On April 19 2010 12:42 Smoyf wrote:
Immortals don't like thors. And when an immortal doesn't like an armored unit you know what happens to them! That's the point of this thread after all!
Oh and Vikings have 9 range! It's tough to counter them as toss since if we blink our stalkers up ahead to take out the vikings all the stalkers get ownt by your ground force.
If he's using his robos for coli he won't be immortal heavy most likely. Also I was not at a lack for EMPs that game. Once you have 4-5 ghosts out you have enough EMP to blanket the entire screen. Immortals are not overly powerful in the mid/lategame. It's only the early immortal push that's such a problem.
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You could try on Lost Temple to seal off your entrance with a barracks and a supply depot. Then build another barracks in your base and build a bunker at your wall, station maurourders in the bunkers and you should be set so you could expand.
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Dude i have to say, PvT seems pretty balanced atm, and maybe even a little in favor of T considering they have so many more options to harass, demoralize, and break protoss economy. Consider, every damn PvT game, the P basically has to rush Stalkers and screw his early economy, or have his economy screwed when he goes 12 or 13 gate and doesnt get a stalker out until he has 2-3 reapers raping his economy.
So either I screw my economy to defend against you screwing my economy, or you screw my economy anyway. Either way we're screwed, see what I'm getting at? It's been proven mathematically that fast reaper rush is unstoppable when excecuted correctly for totally screwing the P economy. It's also been proven that a correctly executed "all in" 6 marine + SCV rush is nearly unbeatable.
Now that aside, most PvT games i find myself really having a hard time succeeding in an immortal push, since i know that i MUST have stalkers out immediately to counter reapers, and then I need to take the time to tech up to immortals, get an observer or 2 out, get more gateways up, and then pump out some zealots for a meat shield. By the time i can attack, the T will have ghosts out which greatly reduces my pushing power, as well as the tactical advantage of a choke point with longer range units and a superior economy due to mules. At this point, the Terran will turtle and i will proceed to keep pumping units, usually with a proxy pylon to keep warping in stuff to continue the push. If things are going well, i expand, keep pushing etc. At this point if the terran is smart he will push me out and can probably win with a solid MMM push. If not, and he lets me contain him, or expands himself, i will have an economic advantage due to having my expo out quicker, and win with a well timed push after i have received the full benefit of my better economy by producing more units.
At this point, I will win simply because i have a larger army. It will take some time to let the ghosts blow their energy on me, so that means attacking, backing out, attacking, backing out, get an observer there, kill anyghosts i see as priority, but eventually I will break through and win, only because i contained the terran and had an economic advantage.
Now, this can go both ways. I have been contained and the terran was able to expand and get an economic advantage. I have had games where it was literally a stalemate, we would each attack, and our armys would be entirely decimated, and we would have to rebuild a new army.
Now aside from the cheeses that Terran is able to pull off (super fast reapers and all in 6 marine scv rush) this is a very balanced matchup. If anything, those 2 cheeses need to be nerfed somehow, otherwise it is a solid matchup. And for a counter to a previous statement:
problems with marines are:
1. they lose vs anything out of the warpgate early. zealots beat em straight up,stalkers too.
2. they need shields and stim to be effective.none of the P units "need" em to put up a fight.
3. they build time is downrght retarded (kneejerk "fix" by blizzard cause marine/scv allins were too strong)
4. sentries reduce marines dmg by 1/3.
5. P can just wait till he has storm/collosi and kill 50 marines with aclick or 3 storms.
and considering whole factory tech gets countered by immortals there really isnt much left.
so T has to go mass marauder which again fight a uphill battle vs standart gate+immortal aclick action
1. Actually for cost, I'm pretty sure marines will kill stalkers without much trouble. 3 marines = 150 minerals vs 125/50 for a stalker, and im pretty sure 3 marines would kill a stalker and only lose 1 maybe 2 of them. As for Zealots, YES, in the open, Zealots DO indeed kick marines asses AS THEY SHOULD considering that marines are the starter unit and can attack both air and ground from range (and they are quite good vs air as well). Now as for Sentries, i dont think they directly kick marines asses so much as they really help out as a support unit, and they should considering that is their role. The Toss teched to them and had to invest a huge amount of gas into them, which implies that they have spent even more minerals on getting that gas harvested etc. It greatly reduces your marines effectiveness. Good. It should. As for DT/HT? Yes DT and HT both can kick ass but both can be quite easily countered with air or emp respectively.
2. This is a very general statement. Do you expect massing marines, which sacrifice some of their ground damage and health for the utility of being able to attack from range and attack air, to be better than a ground unit whos sole purpose is to kill other ground units? Of course not. However for my units to be effective against your army, or to even get to your army, i need to get immortals, stalkers, probably an observer or 2 so that i can even break down your wall. In the meantime you should be teching up to better units, just like I did in order to try to attack you. Spamming 50 marines will surely make you lose yes, just like spamming 25 zealots would. This is just a stupid mentality.
3. Uh, Reactor?
4. As I already stated, sentries are a HEAVY investment in gas (and therefore a heavy mineral investment to get that gas) and a utility unit, they SHOULD help counter your marines which are very low tech. Comparing a 50 mineral unit to a 50 mineral 100 gas unit isn't very fair, nor the fact that the toss had to invest 150 minerals into a cybernetics core to even get them.
5. It's called teching. Teched units are vastly superior to lower tech units because they have the added cost and build time of TECHING. Now, if YOU had teched a few ghosts and used some good play by using their EMP, those High Templar are nullified and a waste of money. On the other hand, If the Toss is going for Colossi, why in gods name are you going mass marines? Colossi with extra range requires a very long build time and they are very fragile, especially to things like Vikings, which come standard on your starport and can be pumped out extremely fast with a reactor upgrade.
Let's see, you need Barracks, Factory, Starport, Reactor on the Starport to counter Colossi. And these units are viable ground and harass units as well, and also are your primary means of dealing with other capital ships.
The protoss needs Gateway, Cybernetics, Robo, and the Robo extension, plus a 300/200 research with a huge research time. So the toss needs 4 buildings which are far more expensive in comparison than yours are, and a heavy research time PLUS the colossi themselves are extremely expensive plus have a long build time, infact they really aren't worth pumping unless you can chrono them. So if you see Colossi, theres your counter, kind of like immortals hard counter your tanks, vikings hard counter colossi, you see the pattern here? Think about units, maybe look at the "units" tab in game and you might see that is good against what and find counters and strats to deal with things that rape your poor versatile tier 0 units.
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On April 19 2010 13:52 Opti wrote:
. . . . It's also been proven that a correctly executed "all in" 6 marine + SCV rush is nearly unbeatable.
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What are you even talking about lol, why do you think marine/reactor time was upped
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problem with the thors and tanks is
- thor will take the splash from tanks due gateways units being close to them
- thors don't take many "mass colossus" hits, thors have almost no def them even dying to a couple of units, reparing wont work unless u'd like your worker being destroyed due tank splash
- thors are expensive, for the money you could get a couple or more vikings to take the colossus effectivly out and snipe obs
thats my opinion
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Id agree on the thors, they are big, bulky, stupid units and do not really justify their cost and size for the damage they do. Also their use ability is really sort of so-so, honestly they could remove that and just give them a damage/health boost. Honesetly i love to see thors in my PvT matches, i just laugh and build a couple of immortals which are lower tier and will annihilate the thors.
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On April 19 2010 14:23 Opti wrote:
Honesetly i love to see thors in my PvT matches, i just laugh and build a couple of immortals which are lower tier and will annihilate the thors.
Ohh, we're comparing units in a vacume again!
So immortals dying to marines (lower tier) is a travesty aswell then?
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Yeah, last podcast, didn't Jinro say that thors get outranged by colossi?
So, tell me what's a solid build for going against toss, because I'm still not seeing one. I've tried 3 rax(3 tech labd) and early harass, but get denied, and can't get ghost AND deal with the insane amount of stalkers.
I've tried fast expoing, that was a joke.
I'm thinking about trying rax-techlab, to fact-techlab. And getting maruaders/wall for early aggression, and siege tanks plus ghosts/EMP for immortals/colossi. Fitting? Problem is if i i miss EMP i'm done for.
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On April 19 2010 15:15 Schamus wrote:
Yeah, last podcast, didn't Jinro say that thors get outranged by colossi?
So, tell me what's a solid build for going against toss, because I'm still not seeing one. I've tried 3 rax(3 tech labd) and early harass, but get denied, and can't get ghost AND deal with the insane amount of stalkers.
I've tried fast expoing, that was a joke.
I'm thinking about trying rax-techlab, to fact-techlab. And getting maruaders/wall for early aggression, and siege tanks plus ghosts/EMP for immortals/colossi. Fitting? Problem is if i i miss EMP i'm done for.
Check the 20-26ish pages in the Terran v Protoss thread, there are strats and replays that have worked for various players within. I've also linked a pack from Strelok who went 4-1 v. WhiteRa which is on page 29 i think.
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On April 19 2010 15:07 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 14:23 Opti wrote:
Honesetly i love to see thors in my PvT matches, i just laugh and build a couple of immortals which are lower tier and will annihilate the thors. Ohh, we're comparing units in a vacume again! So immortals dying to marines (lower tier) is a travesty aswell then?
Immortals hard counter tech armored units and are decent against marauders. To counter marines I would need to add more zealots to my push, or HT, or colossi etc. Marines are a good counter for immortals, and if a terran is pushing for marauders and high armor tanks etc, but sees me going immortals, it would be wise for him to revert to pumping marines. Nothing at all wrong with that, hes just countering the counter, thats how the game is played, whoever does it better will win. Not sure why you are trying to patronize me.
And it's *Vacuum* btw.
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On April 19 2010 15:29 Opti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 15:07 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 19 2010 14:23 Opti wrote:
Honesetly i love to see thors in my PvT matches, i just laugh and build a couple of immortals which are lower tier and will annihilate the thors. Ohh, we're comparing units in a vacume again! So immortals dying to marines (lower tier) is a travesty aswell then? Immortals hard counter tech armored units and are decent against marauders. To counter marines I would need to add more zealots to my push, or HT, or colossi etc. Marines are a good counter for immortals, and if a terran is pushing for marauders and high armor tanks etc, but sees me going immortals, it would be wise for him to revert to pumping marines. Nothing at all wrong with that, hes just countering the counter, thats how the game is played, whoever does it better will win. Not sure why you are trying to patronize me. And it's *Vacuum* btw.
Thank you for the spelling correction.
Countering the counter which is then countered.
The point is: saying that it's wrong for a unit to be effective against another unit based on tier alone is silly, unless the offending A unit is supposed to fulfill the role of B unit killer. ie. roaches v. zealots. If roaches were easily killed by zealots, there would be something wrong with one of the two, or both.
So if the thor was expressedly designed to kill immortals, you'd be right. But that is not the case.
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On April 19 2010 15:34 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 15:29 Opti wrote:On April 19 2010 15:07 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 19 2010 14:23 Opti wrote:
Honesetly i love to see thors in my PvT matches, i just laugh and build a couple of immortals which are lower tier and will annihilate the thors. Ohh, we're comparing units in a vacume again! So immortals dying to marines (lower tier) is a travesty aswell then? Immortals hard counter tech armored units and are decent against marauders. To counter marines I would need to add more zealots to my push, or HT, or colossi etc. Marines are a good counter for immortals, and if a terran is pushing for marauders and high armor tanks etc, but sees me going immortals, it would be wise for him to revert to pumping marines. Nothing at all wrong with that, hes just countering the counter, thats how the game is played, whoever does it better will win. Not sure why you are trying to patronize me. And it's *Vacuum* btw. Thank you for the spelling correction. Countering the counter which is then countered. The point is: saying that it's wrong for a unit to be effective against another unit based on tier alone is silly, unless the offending A unit is supposed to fulfill the role of B unit killer. ie. roaches v. zealots. If roaches were easily killed by zealots, there would be something wrong with one of the two, or both. So if the thor was expressedly designed to kill immortals, you'd be right. But that is not the case.
I'm not really seeing what you're driving at here. I never said it was wrong for one unit to be effective against another unit based on tier alone. There is much more that goes into it, however in general higher tiered units tend to be more cost effective simply because they required a higher time and economy investment.
Actually I have no idea what you're saying I'm saying. Are you saying that I'm saying that Thors are underpowered or overpowered, or immortals are over or underpowered, or only against eachother, or that I am saying that tier should be the only deciding factor in unit vs unit? I'm just confused as to your point.
The only thing i said about thors was that they die easily to immortals, and they should because they are the epitome of a heavy armored ground unit which is expressly what immortals are made to counter, regardless of tier. Just like Immortals die easily to pin prick enemies like marines, lings, zealots etc. I just don't really see what the role is for Thors, and I think they need to be adjusted and given a more defined role, other than "big clunky machine does good damage dies to immortals".
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On April 19 2010 15:45 Opti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 15:34 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 19 2010 15:29 Opti wrote:On April 19 2010 15:07 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 19 2010 14:23 Opti wrote:
Honesetly i love to see thors in my PvT matches, i just laugh and build a couple of immortals which are lower tier and will annihilate the thors. Ohh, we're comparing units in a vacume again! So immortals dying to marines (lower tier) is a travesty aswell then? Immortals hard counter tech armored units and are decent against marauders. To counter marines I would need to add more zealots to my push, or HT, or colossi etc. Marines are a good counter for immortals, and if a terran is pushing for marauders and high armor tanks etc, but sees me going immortals, it would be wise for him to revert to pumping marines. Nothing at all wrong with that, hes just countering the counter, thats how the game is played, whoever does it better will win. Not sure why you are trying to patronize me. And it's *Vacuum* btw. Thank you for the spelling correction. Countering the counter which is then countered. The point is: saying that it's wrong for a unit to be effective against another unit based on tier alone is silly, unless the offending A unit is supposed to fulfill the role of B unit killer. ie. roaches v. zealots. If roaches were easily killed by zealots, there would be something wrong with one of the two, or both. So if the thor was expressedly designed to kill immortals, you'd be right. But that is not the case. I'm not really seeing what you're driving at here. I never said it was wrong for one unit to be effective against another unit based on tier alone. There is much more that goes into it, however in general higher tiered units tend to be more cost effective simply because they required a higher time and economy investment. Actually I have no idea what you're saying I'm saying. Are you saying that I'm saying that Thors are underpowered or overpowered, or immortals are over or underpowered, or only against eachother, or that I am saying that tier should be the only deciding factor in unit vs unit? I'm just confused as to your point. The only thing i said about thors was that they die easily to immortals, and they should because they are the epitome of a heavy armored ground unit which is expressly what immortals are made to counter, regardless of tier. Just like Immortals die easily to pin prick enemies like marines, lings, zealots etc. I just don't really see what the role is for Thors, and I think they need to be adjusted and given a more defined role, other than "big clunky machine does good damage dies to immortals".
I think you're saying what i though you were saying that i'm saying.
Either way. I agree immortals counter thors. Not sure that i agree thors need a more defined role, but that goes beyond the scope of my orignial argument.
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Regardless, 1 thor tanks better than 2 siege tanks, and deals quite a bit of damage, and can use particle on colis. Emp + tanks melts immortals quite quickly. The point of thors is to die so tanks don't. That was the idea behind the suggestion in the first place. It is possible that just better positioning and good emps and perhaps even target firing the colossi does enough on its own.
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the immortal problem is actually a sentry problem.
this is because units with with small quick attacks that should theoretically counter immortals, are made redundant by use of guardian shield and forcefield.
nerfing sentrys will make marines more cost effective, causing the protooss player to tech to aoe, and in turn the terran player will also tech to counter whatever protoss plans.
and balance to the universe shall be restored.
Unless they want to rename the game to:
Starcraft II: The Immortal Push
i have to put up with it as zerg as well.
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On April 19 2010 17:18 Wretched wrote:
the immortal problem is actually a sentry problem.
this is because units with with small quick attacks that should theoretically counter immortals, are made redundant by use of guardian shield and forcefield.
nerfing sentrys will make marines more cost effective, causing the protooss player to tech to aoe, and in turn the terran player will also tech to counter whatever protoss plans.
and balance to the universe shall be restored.
Unless they want to rename the game to:
Starcraft II: The Immortal Push
i have to put up with it as zerg as well.
+1 It's the sentries that are the crux of the problem. Immortals are fine besides the insane build speed.
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marines need build time decrease, its silly that i build a marauder almost in the same amount of time as single marine and reactors build retarded long
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On April 19 2010 17:18 Wretched wrote:
the immortal problem is actually a sentry problem.
this is because units with with small quick attacks that should theoretically counter immortals, are made redundant by use of guardian shield and forcefield.
nerfing sentrys will make marines more cost effective, causing the protooss player to tech to aoe, and in turn the terran player will also tech to counter whatever protoss plans.
and balance to the universe shall be restored.
Unless they want to rename the game to:
Starcraft II: The Immortal Push
i have to put up with it as zerg as well.
Or you could.. micro? =P Honestly... the best nerf you can give a sentry is to targetfire it down. These aren't thors we're talking about, they melt like butter if you'd bother to actually control your units. And forcefield is useless unless you have 4-5 of them, at which point there better be a ghost on the field. Unless of course you park your units on top of a ramp while leaving your expo unprotected, in which case my advice would be.. don't do that.
I mean, what kind of immortal pushes do these people do against you? do they have like 10 sentries or something? What exactly prevents you from engaging the toss army mid-way to burn some of their forcefields down? Heck you could sack half your army to kill every sentry he has and laugh as his remaining force melts to your reinforcements. I honestly don't find force field trouble at all in TvP. There's so many ways to deal with it.
I WOULD find forcefield troublesome though if I never bothered to scout and if some giant toss ball showed up at my naturals' choke unannounced, but then I would blame myself, not the sentries
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On April 19 2010 18:05 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:18 Wretched wrote:
the immortal problem is actually a sentry problem.
this is because units with with small quick attacks that should theoretically counter immortals, are made redundant by use of guardian shield and forcefield.
nerfing sentrys will make marines more cost effective, causing the protooss player to tech to aoe, and in turn the terran player will also tech to counter whatever protoss plans.
and balance to the universe shall be restored.
Unless they want to rename the game to:
Starcraft II: The Immortal Push
i have to put up with it as zerg as well.
Or you could.. micro? =P Honestly... the best nerf you can give a sentry is to targetfire it down. These aren't thors we're talking about, they melt like butter if you'd bother to actually control your units. And forcefield is useless unless you have 4-5 of them, at which point there better be a ghost on the field. Unless of course you park your units on top of a ramp while leaving your expo unprotected, in which case my advice would be.. don't do that. I mean, what kind of immortal pushes do these people do against you? do they have like 10 sentries or something? What exactly prevents you from engaging the toss army mid-way to burn some of their forcefields down? Heck you could sack half your army to kill every sentry he has and laugh as his remaining force melts to your reinforcements. I honestly don't find force field trouble at all in TvP. There's so many ways to deal with it. I WOULD find forcefield troublesome though if I never bothered to scout and if some giant toss ball showed up at my naturals' choke unannounced, but then I would blame myself, not the sentries
Thank god for a terran turning this into the right direction :-)
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im talking about guardian shield as well. this makes marines do only 4 damage instead of 6.
and ironically, forcefields stop you from being able to micro. Good players know when to use it at the right time. And good luck focus firing all the sentries down while the other units stamp on your face.
and yes, if they knew you were going to make so many marines, they probably would make a shitload of sentries.
whatever, the point is, when combined with the immortals, sentries just tip the balance a little bit tooo far in the wrong direction.
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Like I said, guardian shield can be handled by killing the sentry. The other units may be "stomping your face" while you do so, but that's true in every scenario where you focus fire one unit in an army.. yes the other enemy units are still firing at you. If, as you point out, force field is preventing your range 5 marines to shoot at the range 5 sentry then there's an incredibly easy fix for that: move your army back a bit and re-engage. Just practice some games against a protoss opponent and test out different ways of microing instead of moping about the ability. I'm telling you that it can be handled. You can either believe that and practice how to, or you can keep posting "buts" and "ifs" in this thread.
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are we playing different games? its impossible to kill sentries when your army is divided to pieces due the force fields and zealots/stalkers/sentry rip your marine/marauder combo to pieces (assuming hes making 4warp gate rush and you FE), try playing the game first before you give advices
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the point is, if you didn't have to 'handle' the sentries so much, marines would be more effective, and the push would not be as difficult to deal with..
do you disagree on this?
you know theres something wrong, when protoss can do almost the same timing push on both terran and zerg
and this also means the players have twice as much practice doing it, making the situation even worse
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So with only 1-2 ghost (since you're talking about the early immortal + sentry/zealot/stalker "rush") you can nullify P's ability to 1) force field block you 2) guardian shield 3) immortal's "imba" hardened shield.
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yeah, because all top protoss players bunch all their immortals and sentries together put them on a plate and tie a bow around them for you.
and teching to ghosts is free.
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Teching to ghosts is free? Wow you guys should get those more often.
EMP, despite its nerf still hits a very large area, so its not hard for 2 EMPs to wipe out pretty much all the sentries and immortals because at most they'll probably be in two groups. Keeping Templar separated is hard enough without having to keep every other unit separated into several groups.
I feel like pretty soon people will be calling Protoss scrubs if they don't keep every unit 4 feet from another unit.
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On April 19 2010 18:36 lolreaper wrote:
are we playing different games? its impossible to kill sentries when your army is divided to pieces due the force fields and zealots/stalkers/sentry rip your marine/marauder combo to pieces (assuming hes making 4warp gate rush and you FE), try playing the game first before you give advices
What keeps you from harming the fragile sentries? Unless you're just failing to target them in the first place, I assure you that they die from a stiff breeze. And you seem good at assuming the protoss player will do X, Y, or Z timing push of death. How's about you scout your opponent, familiarize yourself with some of the dozen replays that have gone into the other TvP thread, and actually counter instead of QQ'ing at the perfect storm of sentries and immos rolling you at your own ramp? Stop posting and start playing.
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Forcefield has a range of 9. One of the big nerf ideas I've heard floating around is to FF cast range. The only unit that will be able to kill a sentry before it slices and dices your army is the siege tank. This is the primary reason I go for tank based play. Unfortunately, 4 warpgate push and 3 gate robo are extraordinarily difficult to hold at all with tanks, much less the same build. In BW at least supply depots did a fair job of protecting your fragile tanks. They drop so fast in sc2 =/
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I find it hard to believe there are still some players here saying immortals are completely fine. Immortals break the pvt game more than roaches did, except for maybe in zvz.
Every game right now is basically P x2warpgate/roboing or x1warpgate/fast immortals and literally a-moving into your walls/base.
You have to react just to counter the immortal itself, and with the forcefields/stalker/whatever the hell he wants to bring with it, it becomes so difficult to stop 2-3 immortals + mass gateway units.
If you FE, you basically are fucked and will barely hold, but you must stay on 2-4 rax to survive it, letting protoss expo freely to the CnC gold minerals if they want, or just take their nat and add on even more gates/pressure till you are dead/have no map control.
if you don't FE, you're relying on the guy sucking and not defending his base from a hellion drop, or hoping he does not just counter-attack you for the free win. no FE builds you will not be able to afford ghosts mech, airmech is not going to work here either, so the only non-FE builds that do work are marauder based, and they also end up sucking horribly vs good toss that are abusing immortals.
and yah, 4rax FE dies to collosus. They do not have to expo, they just get collosus off their robo and all stalker/sentry/zealot and break you while they expand and they are ahead every time.
so the most you can hope to do tvp is harrass while barely staying alive, and getting set up with either marauder/medivac/ghost, or getting set up into ghostmech, or lasting long enough to accumulate enough banshees to do something.
otherwise P>T, immortals are too cost effective. I doubt anyone can argue that they are not. Too cost effective, and way too easy to abuse/use. Same goes for Protoss's new tier1 stasis OH I meant forcefield lmao!
with that said though, IF, and that's a huge IF, you can get set up into a mid-game, then it is possible to play a very even game with EMP's vs immortals, viking vs collosus, etc. the problem is all of the insanely easy shit toss can do to kill you before then.
what is worse are the noobies online that play P and think they are good enough to give you advice on the tvp situation post-game. I played a TvP where as usual, I got frustrated by a stupid bust of just an a-move into my base from another P scrub with immortals/sentry/zealot.
I say, "immortals are so broken sighs" and he says, "do not expand so early, so you have more units"
lol? apparently protosses do not realize you can't do jack shit other than FE or do a semi-all in marauders into expo to compete vs immortals. and every single option Terran has literally has a huge "kill me" sign on it. There really is no safe 100% option Terran has for immortals, like in SC1, you could siege expand as a standard play, and yes you could die to a bulldog, or a similar type of attack.
But it was no where near as cost effective or easy to pull of as simply a-move walking immortals to the T and insta-blocking their shit with low costing force fields lol.
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The thing is, nothing REALLY changed between the patches that made Protoss absolutely able to dominate Terran, I feel like Blizzard should re-look over that patch, or previous patches. Patching what looks wrong may just be the community's style of play, and now that Protoss have fine tuned their BO's, it may be time to give back some nerfed terran stuff.
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Before i make my post i want to share that i am only a rank 6 to 8 platinum protoss player so not that good. I read all these posts about immortals being impossible to beat as T so i decided to try my hand at terran. I am currently 13/0 vs protoss, they go immortals every game. I am not saying my strat works at the highest levels because i have no idea. I go three rax with reactor as my first rax addon, then 2 tech labs. The second my first tech lab comes up i research stim, this is all off of one gas. i ship my troops out to arrive at toss entrance right as stim finishes with one scanner sweep saved and i kill them 85% of the time. While i am pushing i throw up my expo and toss can never get back in the game. Have you higher ranked guys tried a strat similar to this and found it ineffective?
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Yeah, I play Terran, and while immortal/sentry/stalker pushes are strong, EVERY PROTOSS does it EVERY TIME, so all you have to do is prepare for it because the lack of diversity between protoss players in the Platinum league is pretty astounding but it removes any surprises.
As long as you focus fire the immortals (otherwise they rip your army up fast), I find that my bio army does alright, and make sure to always scout for proxy pylons since a lot of said protoss hide proxy pylons (I had one guy hide 3, and I found 2 thinking he had given up trying to hide them - oh how wrong I was).
Also, just play defensive for the first bit otherwise if you push the protoss's ramp he'll force field half your units and counter-push for the GG. I find a lot of protoss will also place cannons, so that gives you a 150~300+ mineral advantage right off the back in terms of a defensive encounter on your part.
Besides, you can always do a fast reaper rush if you're still having troubles.
I personally go 3 rax 2 tech 1 reactor, research stim/concussion depending on how heavy the army is of stalkers (more stalkers, I opt for stim. more zealots, I opt for concussion). Then you expand when you're making the push.
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Huk has repeatedly shown that 3 rax play is not viable. Even with EMP people still seem to lose horribly vs his 3 warpgate/robo play. I tried my hand at terran vs antimage (I believe). I did multirax bio with fast stim and he did immortal/gateway and I just died.
The problem with relying on builds specifically tailored to kill is protoss can do something else. Drop play, colossus, and even just FE play are all viable options upon scouting your build. If they go for another type of aggressive opening such as 4 gate, you'll be doomed. It's exactly what Nony was saying in his "metagame" thread - don't do builds because other people are doing specific builds; do something viable vs many openings. The problem is that right now, that's pretty freaking difficult.
I believe the answer lies in some sort of 1 rax 1 fact fast siege + ghost style play. Until blizzard releases another patch we all are just going to have to keep experimenting.
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sdfgh. didn't read. edited because i don't know how to delete. Did you 3 rax with reactor as your first addon? Can you post your replay of getting destroyed by huk when you went 3 rax fast stim. I am super curious how it is possible for him to produce nonstop immortals and units out of that before your stim completes.
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I never played HuK, but if there are replays of the craft cup you'll see what I was talking about. I did not see anyone doing early reactor, but I don't believe that'd make much of a difference. 2 marines do 3 damage a shot with guardian shield/4 to immo shields, 1 marauder does 7 to light/10 to immo shields/17 to armored. I don't see how marines are any better. In addition 1 mara has 125 hp as opposed to 45+45 for 2 marines. Marines would be better if it wasn't for guardian shield though, I will give you that.
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Guardian shields COMPLETELY negate the possibility of mixing in marines into your ground force. The sentry carries it's own weight in combat while reducing your marine dps by 40% (because most toss units have 1 starting armor).
Marines are NOT the answer to immortals. Ghosts and marauders are the soft counter to immortals. It's too bad that zealots/stalker + sentries provide such a ridiculously good meat sheild for the immortals. Both marines and marauders are TERRIBLE against zealot/stalker/sentrie.
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you can easily target fire sentries... Why don't you just try the build out and see what happens before blindly dismissing it. Play it a few games and if it doesn't work i will happily admit i am wrong. I went 13/0 with it though having never played terran before..
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On April 20 2010 03:53 Couvre wrote:
you can easily target fire sentries... Why don't you just try the build out and see what happens before blindly dismissing it. Play it a few games and if it doesn't work i will happily admit i am wrong. I went 13/0 with it though having never played terran before..
no you cant. forcefields + 3-4 dmg per marine + range 5 + zeals blocking .show me how you FF down 5++ sentrys before 3/4 of your army are dead. and if the p does anything different your whole gameplan just is obsolete. its not like you can contain him for long and you cant kill him either cause he can simply block the ramp and wait till he can bust out and either kill your right away with his tech or double expo cause he has mapcontrol now.
also if you go marine heavy you have to keep in mind that once P techs kicks in (templar or collosus) half of your army is entirely useless.
but ofc if you have reps vs a decent toss that doesnt just go 2 gate mass immortal and just aclicks then share em.
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You need two ghosts to take out 2 immortals if the toss is smart to split them, and even then they can just retreat for 30 seconds, regenerate shields, and run back in and ghosts don't have any EMP anymore. Sentries make it difficult to do damage with marines, true. But stimmed marines still do a viable amount of damage to immortals with guardian shield up. So the idea, for me, is to target fire sentires with siege tanks, and marines on immortals and marauders on everything else. Immortals spend their time chewing up marauders, and stalkers attack move so I think, they should be clustered well enough.
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On April 20 2010 03:53 Couvre wrote:
you can easily target fire sentries... Why don't you just try the build out and see what happens before blindly dismissing it. Play it a few games and if it doesn't work i will happily admit i am wrong. I went 13/0 with it though having never played terran before..
Why dont you give a replay?
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On April 20 2010 03:36 Floophead_III wrote:
I never played HuK, but if there are replays of the craft cup you'll see what I was talking about. I did not see anyone doing early reactor, but I don't believe that'd make much of a difference. 2 marines do 3 damage a shot with guardian shield/4 to immo shields, 1 marauder does 7 to light/10 to immo shields/17 to armored. I don't see how marines are any better. In addition 1 mara has 125 hp as opposed to 45+45 for 2 marines. Marines would be better if it wasn't for guardian shield though, I will give you that.
Other important thing you are missing is P has no units that do extra dmg vs marines, they will take 20 not 50 dmg from immortals. So it leads us to decision to use marines as... meatshields. Well smthing is very wrong with tvp if you have to do that.
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On April 20 2010 04:31 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 03:36 Floophead_III wrote:
I never played HuK, but if there are replays of the craft cup you'll see what I was talking about. I did not see anyone doing early reactor, but I don't believe that'd make much of a difference. 2 marines do 3 damage a shot with guardian shield/4 to immo shields, 1 marauder does 7 to light/10 to immo shields/17 to armored. I don't see how marines are any better. In addition 1 mara has 125 hp as opposed to 45+45 for 2 marines. Marines would be better if it wasn't for guardian shield though, I will give you that. Other important thing you are missing is P has no units that do extra dmg vs marines, they will take 20 not 50 dmg from immortals. So it leads us to decision to use marines as... meatshields. Well smthing is very wrong with tvp if you have to do that.
haha yeah thought the same recently. just gets even more weird when the first +1 collosus pops out and 1shots your entire meathsield ~~
maybe we should start massing hellions? still hope for some tweaking on the hellion to deal some of their +light dmg to shields also(ofc with upgrade) so they atleast somewhat resemble the use of vultures tvp. mech might get viable with that.
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Hi guys,
I use this thread about TvP so I don't make a new topic.
I'm pretty noob (gold league but you know... silber/gold/bronze... all about the same) and I play protoss. I have HUGE problems against terrans (like 1 win over 5 oO) and I am doing pretty well against toss and zerg.
I want to make sure first that I don't complain about the MU. I'm not good enough to wine. But I juste come here to ask a few questions cause I know a lot of you here a pretty good players.
I watched all the replays given in this thread. And I am disapointed cause none of them showed end/mid game of TvP with mass marauders + ghost + medivac.
I just don't know how to fight them... I know there must be a way because I see so much posts about it but I rellay don't know. The terran keeps on one base and a-move his marauders. I go immo+sentry+collo+zealots but if I tech witch to HT, he will come on top with his army and it's over. I wait until b2/b3 to get HT but it's too late : he comes with mass mass mass marauders and I lose.
Do you have any tips for a little noob ? Replays of showing a toss beating a M&M&M ball will really be welcomed.
I just fell that OK protoss might be OP against terran. I don't know. But at my level, terran is by far the easiest race to play I feel cause no need to really micro whereas protoss has to mix a lot and micro feedback, etc. I might be totally wrong and I sure hope you will give me great examples.
Really thanks to the community which brings a lot to SC2. Gratz.
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On April 20 2010 04:31 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 03:36 Floophead_III wrote:
I never played HuK, but if there are replays of the craft cup you'll see what I was talking about. I did not see anyone doing early reactor, but I don't believe that'd make much of a difference. 2 marines do 3 damage a shot with guardian shield/4 to immo shields, 1 marauder does 7 to light/10 to immo shields/17 to armored. I don't see how marines are any better. In addition 1 mara has 125 hp as opposed to 45+45 for 2 marines. Marines would be better if it wasn't for guardian shield though, I will give you that. Other important thing you are missing is P has no units that do extra dmg vs marines, they will take 20 not 50 dmg from immortals. So it leads us to decision to use marines as... meatshields. Well smthing is very wrong with tvp if you have to do that.
Until the toss has colossi, I love spamming a lot of marines and having them sit up front and take all the damage.
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I have the exact opposite problem than this guy, when I go immortals vs. Terran, I get overran by Marauders. I can't get away, any good terran will be able to micro there way to an easy win, 2 shotting each immortal with 10 or more marauders.
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On April 20 2010 08:09 zs3000 wrote:
I have the exact opposite problem than this guy, when I go immortals vs. Terran, I get overran by Marauders. I can't get away, any good terran will be able to micro there way to an easy win, 2 shotting each immortal with 10 or more marauders.
Well see the battles I, personally, have toruble with have a significant amount of stalkers, and the marauders focusing on the immortals, that allows a lot of damage to be done to the army by Stalkers. So the real problem is that not that the immortals do too much damage by themselves, but that terran needs to attack them first.
so if you put two immortals behind a huge army of stalkers, then your marauders need to run upto shoot them first, meanwhile stalkers take out the rest of the terran army. So, the armies i was having trouble against were exactly these compositions and placement.
This brings about my idea of having ghosts/siege/marauder armies. Ghost and siege take out immortals and marauders the stalkers.
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Immortals have a range of 5 so they're not typically not firing when dodging marauders with their superior range.
Generally, there's a timing window, early game where Toss can exploit Terran FE with an immortal push which is what most of the "imba discussion" has revolved around, but mid to late game immortals do not stand up to large groups of marauders, particularly with stim and focus firing. You absolutely need to get collo or storm to fight back.
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Well, since I don't have the patience to read through 23 pages, has a viable solution to the problem been found yet?
From what I gathered from the first few pages, either ghosts or tanks are the main solution here. Correct me if I'm wrong?
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On April 20 2010 08:54 Gr33ned wrote:
Well, since I don't have the patience to read through 23 pages, has a viable solution to the problem been found yet?
From what I gathered from the first few pages, either ghosts or tanks are the main solution here. Correct me if I'm wrong?
There is no real solution. About 20 posts actually have substantial proof that something works, while the other 400 or so are made up of people flaming each other, people's 2cents, and theorycrafting.
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On April 20 2010 08:54 Gr33ned wrote:
Well, since I don't have the patience to read through 23 pages, has a viable solution to the problem been found yet?
From what I gathered from the first few pages, either ghosts or tanks are the main solution here. Correct me if I'm wrong?
There are solutions in the Terran vs. Protoss thread, including build details and replays. Trouble is that, much like here, it's buried deeper in useless venting posts. People read the OP, realize they have a similar issue, and rather than read through the rest of the posts they just rage at the fact they have the same problem.
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On April 20 2010 11:26 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 08:54 Gr33ned wrote:
Well, since I don't have the patience to read through 23 pages, has a viable solution to the problem been found yet?
From what I gathered from the first few pages, either ghosts or tanks are the main solution here. Correct me if I'm wrong? There are solutions in the Terran vs. Protoss thread, including build details and replays. Trouble is that, much like here, it's buried deeper in useless venting posts. People read the OP, realize they have a similar issue, and rather than read through the rest of the posts they just rage at the fact they have the same problem.
Re-read the entire thread. There are no "solutions" because you can't "solve" a unit that itself is virtually statistically imbalanced stats wise and now apparently overly cost effective.
It shuts down way too many things of Terran. Yes, if you reach mid-game/late-game immortals no longer are such a devastating problem, but your opponent is going to be using high templar/collosus by that point, as well as immortals.
The real issue are the vast amount of all-ins, semi-all-ins, and aggressive things that P can do to you as T that you have no good "solution" for.
You cannot 1 base mech against immortals, it is virtually instant loss. And of course it then follows that you cannot 1 base ghostmech (i have tried it, it's horribly bad) as you are relying on 1-2 perfect EMP's as well as superior force which you would not have playing off 1 base vs a protoss 1 base immortal push.
So, what most T are doing are attempting different FE variations, and other tech builds into FE variations, because 1 base play we know is not viable vs 1 base protoss immortals. But the same exact problem exists even worse with the FE varations, you'll still have not enough units to hold off an all-in immortal build, or other aggressive build involving immortals...
except with marauders. Which is why you see a lot of high level players such as demuslim posting here and mentioning that us Terrans would be building other things other than the marauder as the base of our army...if the other things actually were balanced and viable. But they are not.
it is just a difficult situation to be in right now just getting a tvp. the plan for most good T right now is to survive to mid-game with your natural, and then you are good to go from there with marauder based armies (mmm), ghostmech, or airmech.
the trouble is surviving to that point in the game vs insanely easy things toss can do like a x2 immortal drop. Reaver drops were insanely viable but also insanely stoppable. Immortal drops though shit on the reaver.
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On April 20 2010 11:40 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 11:26 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 20 2010 08:54 Gr33ned wrote:
Well, since I don't have the patience to read through 23 pages, has a viable solution to the problem been found yet?
From what I gathered from the first few pages, either ghosts or tanks are the main solution here. Correct me if I'm wrong? There are solutions in the Terran vs. Protoss thread, including build details and replays. Trouble is that, much like here, it's buried deeper in useless venting posts. People read the OP, realize they have a similar issue, and rather than read through the rest of the posts they just rage at the fact they have the same problem. Re-read the entire thread. There are no "solutions" because you can't "solve" a unit that itself is virtually statistically imbalanced stats wise and now apparently overly cost effective. It shuts down way too many things of Terran. Yes, if you reach mid-game/late-game immortals no longer are such a devastating problem, but your opponent is going to be using high templar/collosus by that point, as well as immortals. The real issue are the vast amount of all-ins, semi-all-ins, and aggressive things that P can do to you as T that you have no good "solution" for. You cannot 1 base mech against immortals, it is virtually instant loss. And of course it then follows that you cannot 1 base ghostmech (i have tried it, it's horribly bad) as you are relying on 1-2 perfect EMP's as well as superior force which you would not have playing off 1 base vs a protoss 1 base immortal push. So, what most T are doing are attempting different FE variations, and other tech builds into FE variations, because 1 base play we know is not viable vs 1 base protoss immortals. But the same exact problem exists even worse with the FE varations, you'll still have not enough units to hold off an all-in immortal build, or other aggressive build involving immortals... except with marauders. Which is why you see a lot of high level players such as demuslim posting here and mentioning that us Terrans would be building other things other than the marauder as the base of our army...if the other things actually were balanced and viable. But they are not. it is just a difficult situation to be in right now just getting a tvp. the plan for most good T right now is to survive to mid-game with your natural, and then you are good to go from there with marauder based armies (mmm), ghostmech, or airmech. the trouble is surviving to that point in the game vs insanely easy things toss can do like a x2 immortal drop. Reaver drops were insanely viable but also insanely stoppable. Immortal drops though shit on the reaver.
Case in point.
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On April 20 2010 11:54 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 11:40 avilo wrote:On April 20 2010 11:26 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 20 2010 08:54 Gr33ned wrote:
Well, since I don't have the patience to read through 23 pages, has a viable solution to the problem been found yet?
From what I gathered from the first few pages, either ghosts or tanks are the main solution here. Correct me if I'm wrong? There are solutions in the Terran vs. Protoss thread, including build details and replays. Trouble is that, much like here, it's buried deeper in useless venting posts. People read the OP, realize they have a similar issue, and rather than read through the rest of the posts they just rage at the fact they have the same problem. Re-read the entire thread. There are no "solutions" because you can't "solve" a unit that itself is virtually statistically imbalanced stats wise and now apparently overly cost effective. It shuts down way too many things of Terran. Yes, if you reach mid-game/late-game immortals no longer are such a devastating problem, but your opponent is going to be using high templar/collosus by that point, as well as immortals. The real issue are the vast amount of all-ins, semi-all-ins, and aggressive things that P can do to you as T that you have no good "solution" for. You cannot 1 base mech against immortals, it is virtually instant loss. And of course it then follows that you cannot 1 base ghostmech (i have tried it, it's horribly bad) as you are relying on 1-2 perfect EMP's as well as superior force which you would not have playing off 1 base vs a protoss 1 base immortal push. So, what most T are doing are attempting different FE variations, and other tech builds into FE variations, because 1 base play we know is not viable vs 1 base protoss immortals. But the same exact problem exists even worse with the FE varations, you'll still have not enough units to hold off an all-in immortal build, or other aggressive build involving immortals... except with marauders. Which is why you see a lot of high level players such as demuslim posting here and mentioning that us Terrans would be building other things other than the marauder as the base of our army...if the other things actually were balanced and viable. But they are not. it is just a difficult situation to be in right now just getting a tvp. the plan for most good T right now is to survive to mid-game with your natural, and then you are good to go from there with marauder based armies (mmm), ghostmech, or airmech. the trouble is surviving to that point in the game vs insanely easy things toss can do like a x2 immortal drop. Reaver drops were insanely viable but also insanely stoppable. Immortal drops though shit on the reaver. Case in point.
Indeed.
I feel like every new page now requires a loud sigh followed by "here we go again."
Builds are being tested, replays are being posted, terran have trumped protoss in a number of recent tournaments. I myself have linked to a number of replays where this was the case, just to point out some of the successes people have had. All of that being said, it's up to the individual to add this information to their in-game repetoir of strategy and tactics in the match-up. You cannot come in thinking "well there are just too many things to stop, there must be no counter." There are ways of dealing with many protoss strategies outlined in that thread and in those replays. Learn from them and improve your gameplay rather than continuing to flood the same "i can't do anything" nonsense that hasn't been holding water for close to a week now.
If you honestly read the other thread from beginning to end, and watched all the replays, but continue to have this same opinion, then nobody can really help you. If you're unwilling to acknowledge advice based on some kind of pre-existing assumption you have concerning the matchup, you're better of posting a thread on the bnet forums to vent.
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I'm Terran. I like Immortal's though.
I've lost to them a number of times. But, I don't feel its imbalanced at all.
The Immortal is a strong unit, its high enough up the tech tree, and I think it gives a lot of character to Toss. I'd hate to see it nerfed.
My favorite build against the Gate>cy>robo opening is 3 rax (1 tech 2 reactors) and I get the +1 attack and Shield upgrade to finish at the same time.
When I push out to claim my natural, with so many marines with the shield and +1, and a good few marauders, you can slaughter those Immo's.
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On April 20 2010 13:18 cursor wrote:
I'm Terran. I like Immortal's though.
I've lost to them a number of times. But, I don't feel its imbalanced at all.
The Immortal is a strong unit, its high enough up the tech tree, and I think it gives a lot of character to Toss. I'd hate to see it nerfed.
My favorite build against the Gate>cy>robo opening is 3 rax (1 tech 2 reactors) and I get the +1 attack and Shield upgrade to finish at the same time.
When I push out to claim my natural, with so many marines with the shield and +1, and a good few marauders, you can slaughter those Immo's.
Thank you.
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On April 20 2010 13:24 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 13:18 cursor wrote:
I'm Terran. I like Immortal's though.
I've lost to them a number of times. But, I don't feel its imbalanced at all.
The Immortal is a strong unit, its high enough up the tech tree, and I think it gives a lot of character to Toss. I'd hate to see it nerfed.
My favorite build against the Gate>cy>robo opening is 3 rax (1 tech 2 reactors) and I get the +1 attack and Shield upgrade to finish at the same time.
When I push out to claim my natural, with so many marines with the shield and +1, and a good few marauders, you can slaughter those Immo's. Thank you.
Build is pretty fuckin' brilliant IMO lol. I been pushing it on my buddies. I'll see if I cant dig up a nice rep and stick it in this response as and edit. You're welcome.
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On April 20 2010 11:40 avilo wrote:
The real issue are the vast amount of all-ins, semi-all-ins, and aggressive things that P can do to you as T that you have no good "solution" for.
Another part of the problem is the synergy of Protoss units and the Sentry is the worst offender with Forcefield and Guardian Shield. Both are neat ideas, but being able to spam Forcefield seems worse than the Marauders concussive shell. So it might be a better idea to EMP the Sentries (usually bunched up) instead of an Immortal, so the opponent doesnt get to split your Marines / Marauders in half and Guardian Shield is used less. With a sufficient number of Marines the Immortals should not pose suche a great problem then.
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Here is an example of ghostmech and of course immortal early game faggotry all in one lofl.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1998
edit: just a thought, but keep in mind even though I play ghost mech a lot and it makes immortals look like utterly bad units once you get past mid-game, the amount of stuff you need to survive the first push is so bad
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On April 20 2010 14:28 avilo wrote:
immortal early game faggotry
Was that really necessary?
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I see a lot of players going for mechs and complaining about geting owned by immortals. But do you have any good replays where the terran goes 3rax mass marauders and loose ? I am protoss and I don't know how to beat that. I'd be really thankful I you could help me !
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On April 20 2010 13:18 cursor wrote:
I'm Terran. I like Immortal's though.
I've lost to them a number of times. But, I don't feel its imbalanced at all.
The Immortal is a strong unit, its high enough up the tech tree, and I think it gives a lot of character to Toss. I'd hate to see it nerfed.
My favorite build against the Gate>cy>robo opening is 3 rax (1 tech 2 reactors) and I get the +1 attack and Shield upgrade to finish at the same time.
When I push out to claim my natural, with so many marines with the shield and +1, and a good few marauders, you can slaughter those Immo's.
This build has overall been quite successful, thanks
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On April 20 2010 15:36 Thr33p3r wrote:
I see a lot of players going for mechs and complaining about geting owned by immortals. But do you have any good replays where the terran goes 3rax mass marauders and loose ? I am protoss and I don't know how to beat that. I'd be really thankful I you could help me !
Watch the finals of the last Craftcup. I think those games were strong indicators. 3 rax marauder is a pretty garbage allin build. =/
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On April 20 2010 03:53 Couvre wrote:
you can easily target fire sentries... Why don't you just try the build out and see what happens before blindly dismissing it. Play it a few games and if it doesn't work i will happily admit i am wrong. I went 13/0 with it though having never played terran before..
Once the Protoss notice others targeting their Sentries they will start putting a Sentry on follow on an Immortal or two just to provide a safe Guardian Shield. How you want to shoot them without using Tanks is beyond me. Rushing up to them with your bio army is pretty much plunging yourself onto the blades of Zealots. This follow-mode would almost negate any Marine army, because the Sentry is pretty safe and can continue providing its Shield.
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Thanks Flopphead, I appreciate. I looked and just saw no PvT in the last 7 matches. Would you have any link please ? :/ (i looked at craftcup n°5)
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i didn't get to read through all 24 pages, but i usually go 2 rax, tech labs no marines at all pump marauders and get ghosts asap.
usually 2 ghosts, then the rest is all marauders and research conc shells asap. usually i get the conc shells between the 2 ghosts. i'm walled in, so i build a 3rd rax and pump more marauders. get stim.
reason i go mass marauders is because if ur production is really consistent, he cannot make enough immortals for every marauder you make -- with that deadly EMP against the toss, u can easily take out immortals as long as u focus fire first and worry about the stalkers later -- and once again conc shells really help.
don't make the mistake of making a 4th rax because that seriously just messes up the macro for terran. build an expo around 80 supply and time the push around that time. with 2 EMPs charged up i usually make the toss retreat. i know that you did say going rax most of the game is a losing game -- but this is beta right now and u really gotta do what works because things haven't been worked out completely yet. playing the mass marauders+ghosts and nothing else hasn't really lost me a toss game. i don't want to claim myself as a toss expert because i have a lot of problems with a zerg that masses drones early with good micro and i can't seem to harass for the life of me sometimes. but this is what works for me --doing this in gold.
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Going to play a few more for replays, but going 1 rax tech, 2 rax reactor. +1 attack and combat shields then pushing (turtling otherwise) seems to do the trick for me.
This build on requires one refinery too, which I drop at 13.
My BO goes:
12 rax
13 ref
16 OC
16 rax
16 rax
Reactors on both of these
18 EBay
The first immortal push can be very devastating, but I find that even losing my front door rax w/ tech lab I can rebuild the rax after I defeat the first push (barely). The bulk of your force relies on marines pumping from your reactors anyways. A lot of protoss rush for an early stalker once they see a rax w/ tech attached hurting their economy and delaying their immo push. +1/cshield marines absolutely dominate immortals. When you push out they should only have a few sentries, so your army getting walled isn't too big of a deal. What is a big deal is that you HAVE to get to his base before his colloxin (this should be any good players' reaction) get their range upgrade or he'll kite you all day. I'll work on getting up some replays.
Edit: This BO can probably be refined, I picked it up from a different thread and I'd really like to give credit to the author but I have no idea where I found it. Thanks whoever you are, this has been a big help vP
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On April 22 2010 18:59 ahcho00 wrote:
i didn't get to read through all 24 pages, but i usually go 2 rax, tech labs no marines at all pump marauders and get ghosts asap.
This gets dominated by a 1 immo timing push, which he should be able to do once he sees you go double refinery.
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how is he gonna see me go double refinery when i kill his scout? if he chooses to go OBs first which most will always do -- i will have my ghost up.
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hi patch 9 immortals, sorry you were nerfed for being too powerful they are still good, just bit longer to get now.
pretty much in the same boat as marauders, just as powerful, just pushed back some in the game so they aren't wtf powerful.
wonder how much tvp will change with the 40 -> 55 sec immortal build time.
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its 10 sec more on faster game speed isnt it?(not counting chronoboost)
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Yes. I now declare victory over my nemesis. It was a necessary adjustment and I think should help a little bit.
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On April 23 2010 05:49 Floophead_III wrote:
Yes. I now declare victory over my nemesis. It was a necessary adjustment and I think should help a little bit.
Good, now we can lock this thread and allow it to die a peaceful death.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/274/screenshot000h.jpg)
