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On April 14 2010 10:09 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar That was a brutal set of games. I saw some patterns in this series: -siege tanks just don't cut it against immortal drop play. No way, no how. -marauders without ghosts just don't cut it. period. -FE doesn't work with any combination of marauder or siege tank; actually, I'm pretty sure any kind of early expand just won't work. Unfortunately those were your main strategies in most of the games. The game I thought you did the best was when you went for banshees, but you lost too many marines in the early game, so you couldn't support banshees. Also, you tried to expand too early. May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot. I have a suggestion that might work: try shield marines + banshees, with a bunker at your choke.
Most of the time I feel the standard wall in gives away too much of my build and the fragile depots don't really add much (i've gravitated away from the oldschool wall ins ever since the baneling bust).
Generally I'll try and block the choke with at least one smaller building but generally I'm trying to make sure I can push out and secure the FE rather than worry about my main base's choke (although clearly with 2 unit producing buildings I can throw down the final cog of my wall and protect myself need be).
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On April 14 2010 13:04 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 10:09 BlasiuS wrote:On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar That was a brutal set of games. I saw some patterns in this series: -siege tanks just don't cut it against immortal drop play. No way, no how. -marauders without ghosts just don't cut it. period. -FE doesn't work with any combination of marauder or siege tank; actually, I'm pretty sure any kind of early expand just won't work. Unfortunately those were your main strategies in most of the games. The game I thought you did the best was when you went for banshees, but you lost too many marines in the early game, so you couldn't support banshees. Also, you tried to expand too early. May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot. I have a suggestion that might work: try shield marines + banshees, with a bunker at your choke. Most of the time I feel the standard wall in gives away too much of my build and the fragile depots don't really add much (i've gravitated away from the oldschool wall ins ever since the baneling bust).
 don't understand. normal wall-in shows the enemy 2 depots and a barracks, while your wall-in shows at least 1 barracks + 1 factory/2 barracks + depot/bunker. Clearly your wall-in gives away more information than the standard wall-in.
If a probe scouts your ramp and sees a barracks and a factory, he can more easily guess your tech than if it sees just a barracks and 2 depots.
Right?
And obviously there's no danger of baneling bust in TvP 
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On April 14 2010 13:11 BlasiuS wrote:And obviously there's no danger of baneling bust in TvP
Dude.. Immortals deal what, 48? 49? damage against buildings... T still has possible depot bust against toss.
And I think the problem is whether T goes 2 rax or 1 rax 1 fact, 4 gate 1 robo works on either of them. :/
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On April 14 2010 13:11 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 13:04 Mente wrote:On April 14 2010 10:09 BlasiuS wrote:On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar That was a brutal set of games. I saw some patterns in this series: -siege tanks just don't cut it against immortal drop play. No way, no how. -marauders without ghosts just don't cut it. period. -FE doesn't work with any combination of marauder or siege tank; actually, I'm pretty sure any kind of early expand just won't work. Unfortunately those were your main strategies in most of the games. The game I thought you did the best was when you went for banshees, but you lost too many marines in the early game, so you couldn't support banshees. Also, you tried to expand too early. May I ask why you don't do the standard wall-in? It would really help to protect you from that 1st zealot. I have a suggestion that might work: try shield marines + banshees, with a bunker at your choke. Most of the time I feel the standard wall in gives away too much of my build and the fragile depots don't really add much (i've gravitated away from the oldschool wall ins ever since the baneling bust). don't understand. normal wall-in shows the enemy 2 depots and a barracks, while your wall-in shows at least 1 barracks + 1 factory/2 barracks + depot/bunker. Clearly your wall-in gives away more information than the standard wall-in. If a probe scouts your ramp and sees a barracks and a factory, he can more easily guess your tech than if it sees just a barracks and 2 depots. Right? And obviously there's no danger of baneling bust in TvP
I'm only worried about the initial probe scout. A walled in probe is more likely to scout more information than one that can leave when the marine pops out :-P. Also seeing a wall means you're 1 basing (generally). All I can tell is all he sees is a rax no wall and if he tries to go for the standard depot break he'll be sadly mistaken as any tech I have will prevent him from further scouting until he can get an observer.
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The root cause of this TvP imbalance is the marine nerf. In the eariler patches you could have enough marines to hold until Colossus, but with the increased reactor and marine build times, you cannot mass enough basic units to pressure a techer (which is retarded). The only way a Terran can even hope to win is to delay the protoss with some type of 8 rax reaper rush.
The reason this was not a big deal before was because the rokkits covered up the core problem but since they have been patched, you see the problem. THE MARINE BUILD TIME IS WAY TOO LONG.
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The marine time also affects TvZ quite a bit. Also keep in mind that the primary problem with the immortal is how fast it comes out. The unit itself is fine, but it's out so ridiculously early that terran has no answer to it. Even when emp enters the field immortals are STILL insanely strong so it's not like terran magically regains map control when he gets EMP. Toss just has the upper hand all game. I highly doubt marines would change that at all.
Another reason marines don't matter is because stalkers with good micro can pick apart marine forces pretty easily. Add in a couple sentries for FF/GS and marines become such absolute garbage without some firepower backing. Marauders are a decent option but that's back to square one. Tanks are my unit of choice because they transition much better into midgame/lategame. However, if you go tanks you'll never have enough marines. If you delay tanks you never have an answer to gateway units. So.... problem.
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I just rewatched Day[9]'s cast #99 (because there's no VOD for #100 yet T^T). And he touches on something pretty interesting. What if to deal with immortals Terran makes tanks and keeps some of them unseiged? With micro unseiged tanks should be able to take down immortals pretty easily as they not only outrange immortals, but you can keep a few in the back seiged to deal with the other protoss units. in addition, unseiged tank dps is pretty high v. armored units, which immortals are. They attack rather fast while unseiged and getting that 10 shots to deplete Immortal harden shields shouldn't be too hard especially with MM support. Obviously, you would need really good micro to pull it off, but I'd imagine it'd be similar to tank micro v. unranged goons in SC1... It should at least buy time for ghost to get in better position or to mass up enough marines to deal with the rest of the Toss army.
just throwing that thought out there.
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so vs immortal, unsieged tanks are better than sieged right?
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On April 14 2010 16:21 exalted wrote:
so vs immortal, unsieged tanks are better than sieged right?
i believe so yes. Because with micro the immortal will never actually hit the tanks. Furthermore, tanks do higher dps to armored units while unseiged (but no splash). Although, yes...FF will make micro-ing the tanks a little problematic but if you have seiged tanks in the back target firing those really weak 40/40 sentries I can see this working out quite well.
EDIT: I also want to point out that tanks build much faster now. I dont' play terran so I don't know the timing, but I'd imagine that it shouldn't be too hard to get out a decent number of tanks in time for immortal pushes, seeing how both tanks and immortals are T2.
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
Why we should overcome imbalances(Immortal) when Blizzard can nerf this imbalance?...
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On April 14 2010 16:37 Jenia6109 wrote:
Why we should overcome imbalances(Immortal) when Blizzard can nerf this imbalance?...
Horrible way of thinking. Imagine if people thought that way in SC1. We'd have no vulture (micro or spider mines), no dark swarm, no plague, and no irradiate.
Obviously after over a decade of Starcraft, those things I just mentioned don't seem so imbalanced. But that's because the players adapted to those things. I mean, think about what dark swarm does. It makes all ranged attacks completely useless and basically makes zerg immune to terran. Plague can take a unit from hundreds of hp to 1. Irradiate kills (almost) any zerg unit with one cast while dealing good splash. Vultures can kite any ground melee unit indefinitely and have 3 mini nukes all for the cheap cost of 75 minerals.
It was the players who "overcame imbalances." Not Blizzard nerfing them that made SC1 the way it is.
Come on. And immortals are imbalanced? At least so much that Blizzard needs to nerf it? Really? The only time I think Blizzard should nerf something is if there is literally nothing that can be done to counter it or there's absolutely no alternative. It's only been a week. ONE week since patch 8 (which before that PvT was relatively balanced) and at least from the games I've played (i'm rank 1 gold and i get pitted up against rank 25+ plats like every game now) people are still trying to do the same old strat of MMM.
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On April 14 2010 16:19 Ryuu314 wrote:
I just rewatched Day[9]'s cast #99 (because there's no VOD for #100 yet T^T). And he touches on something pretty interesting. What if to deal with immortals Terran makes tanks and keeps some of them unseiged? With micro unseiged tanks should be able to take down immortals pretty easily as they not only outrange immortals, but you can keep a few in the back seiged to deal with the other protoss units. in addition, unseiged tank dps is pretty high v. armored units, which immortals are. They attack rather fast while unseiged and getting that 10 shots to deplete Immortal harden shields shouldn't be too hard especially with MM support. Obviously, you would need really good micro to pull it off, but I'd imagine it'd be similar to tank micro v. unranged goons in SC1... It should at least buy time for ghost to get in better position or to mass up enough marines to deal with the rest of the Toss army.
just throwing that thought out there.
This is extremely challenging to do as it also requires units to slow the immortal pursuit of the tank! An immortal has faster animation for shooting and moves slightly faster than tanks. This is extremely frustrating to do with only tanks, don't try it.
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
On April 14 2010 16:44 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 16:37 Jenia6109 wrote:
Why we should overcome imbalances(Immortal) when Blizzard can nerf this imbalance?...
Horrible way of thinking. Imagine if people thought that way in SC1. We'd have no vulture (micro or spider mines), no dark swarm, no plague, and no irradiate. It was the players who "overcame imbalances." Not Blizzard nerfing them that made SC1 the way it is.
Why my way of thinking is so horrible compared to yours? If we will think by your way we will have such a disaster like Muta-Scourge-Ling in ZvZ or absence of infantry units in TvP and TvT in SC1. Players cant balance it because it's mistakes of developers.
Perfect balance is not only balance between races but also balance within each race when u can use any unit available. I love TvZ and PvZ balance in SC1: u really can do anything your soul want. But in SC2 TvP u should make mass-Marauders only and this is bad for balancing of the game.
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I feel like I am playing a totally different game than you guys.. and im only 1600 Platinum on US server. but geez.. Terran DOMINATES me 9 times out of 10.
I lost to three guys today who went banshee harass into mass banshee/marauder/ghost.. and it wasnt even a challenge. I had at least 8 immortal/mass stalker/sentry and speedlots, and they would all die in seconds. If I did happen to kill the marauder army (which was only one game out of 3), then the cloakd banshees with 2 vikings/raven to kill obs in seconds, just owned everything I had. 5 banshees can own everything a protoss has except phoenix's, and if you have to get a starport/phoenix's that significantly reduces your time to produce immortals/units to counter the incredibly lame marauders.
Seriously.. How are you guys losing to the most basic Protoss "push"? Marauders/ghost + anything else mixed in totally dominates it.
My take on the balance is the game is pretty damn close, but marauders need a stat reduction, at least HP nerf or damage nerf. they are fucking crazy!
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before the patch we were able to get an expansion. now we put 1 or 2 bunkers, build a ghosts and pray...
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I also think TvP is skewed for the P, but don't discount the marines. With the attack upgrade / stim / shield upgrade and some supreme micro you can kite protoss robo armies around all day long with stimmed marines. Until they get the charge upgrade or storm, of course. I'd much rather take my chances in a frantic micro battle with mass marines than just inviting an immortal to rape my army by building tanks.
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On April 14 2010 17:18 Skyze wrote:
I feel like I am playing a totally different game than you guys.. and im only 1600 Platinum on US server. but geez.. Terran DOMINATES me 9 times out of 10.
I lost to three guys today who went banshee harass into mass banshee/marauder/ghost.. and it wasnt even a challenge. I had at least 8 immortal/mass stalker/sentry and speedlots, and they would all die in seconds. If I did happen to kill the marauder army (which was only one game out of 3), then the cloakd banshees with 2 vikings/raven to kill obs in seconds, just owned everything I had. 5 banshees can own everything a protoss has except phoenix's, and if you have to get a starport/phoenix's that significantly reduces your time to produce immortals/units to counter the incredibly lame marauders.
Seriously.. How are you guys losing to the most basic Protoss "push"? Marauders/ghost + anything else mixed in totally dominates it.
My take on the balance is the game is pretty damn close, but marauders need a stat reduction, at least HP nerf or damage nerf. they are fucking crazy!
Watch the replays I posted or post some of your own cause we probably are playing a different game.
edit: Mez if you read this I'd like to try some more builds I'm thinking of against you if you're down for it later.
sleep time now though
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On April 14 2010 11:18 2SCV1cup wrote:
maybe change tanks armor type would help^^
wouldnt influence tvz since all zerg units do normal dmg
still think its decent idea lol
imagne that immortals do 20 dmg to tanks not 50 or some other amount (lets say they will have fortified armor type and take only 50% from bonus +armored dmg )
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Russian Federation85 Posts
Tell me one thing, if anyone would post replays.... what would you do if you want immortal nerfs? You would count EVERY fucking mistake the P would have done and declare the replays worthless due the "fact" that the P player was a newb, regardless of everything.
On the other hand people who say that T should learn to adapt will say regardless of the replay that the T has options, which the replay would prove without taking in the account that the P could be simple a bad p player.
So actually it wouldn't change anything for neither of the side.
There tons of replays which you can download and watch were T successfully won over P immortal rushes, but there are tons of replays of successful Immortal rushes vs T as well.
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well I dont understand how you terrans are complaining, esp after you had 4 patchs of massing one unit every game and bulldozering every race (including TvT), but if Blizzard does come with a "nerf" to immortals or anything protoss, I think its just going to make the matchup impossible.
The way I look at it, Immortals is the only thing protoss has that KEEPS US ALIVE to even compete with Terran. Without them, theres nothing else protoss can really do. Storm nerf was so bad, and it just feels like when you land a perfect storm (which is hard as hell to do now) on a big troop of marauders, it feels like the storm doesnt even do damage. It takes 2-3 direct storms to go thru their whole motion to even kill one marauder, which is totally wrong because in BW it only took 2 storms to even kill a tank! I can only imagine how many storms it'd take to kill a thor! 5 or 6?
If they nerfed immortals without nerfing marauders again or banshees... I dont know what to do in this matchup. Only way I can think is doing like some DT warpins or something, but even that isnt too strong due to scvs movement pathing so much better, and scan is cheap now. Maybe carrier/mothership rushing will work, only thing I can think of.
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EPT
