[H] TvP - The Immortal Problem. - Page 19

On April 14 2010 22:36 MourningWould wrote:
Nerf marauders or Immortals stay the way they are. Simple as that.

On April 14 2010 22:00 yanot wrote:



you want to add here another rax + lab ( 200/25 ) and add stimpack 150/150 and concussive shells 100/100 AND the 140+80 game seconds to search both ( these matter more )

without stimpack and shells you won't be able to go toe - to - toe with the protoss, because you can't kill his stalkers ( they run faster so can be microed away and can give the killing blow to terran units ), and immortal still have 200 hp without shield so you can micro it with ease. Not to mention force field, guardian shield, and the fact that the protoss can kill 3 - 4 of your units easily then back & wait shield regeneration.

On April 14 2010 22:02 Toolshed wrote:
That seems to be a naive miscalculation.

4 Marauder + 4 Marines + 1 Ghost = 16 Supply.
2 Sentries + 2 Stalkers + 2 Immortals + 4 Zealots = 24 Supply.

Of course an army with 24 Supply will cost more gas than an army with 16 supply. Assuming that everything is made out of one Rax or Gateway is even more nonsense. To keep up with the unit production of a P you need ~ 3 Rax. I don't need to remind you that you pay Gas for every Addon while Gatways require only minerals, right? But that's not the problem.

BeMannerDuPenner just tried to explain that Protss units are ready as soon as they pop out. No further upgrades required. T on the other hand sits in his base until combat shield (150 gas), stim (150 gas), conc shell (100 gas) and enough Ghosts (each 150 gas) and Medivacs (each 100 gas) are done (I exaggerate of course but you get the point). Really the only Unit that does NOT require gas is the marine which is delayed due to reactor building time.

Oh and by the way: looking for an EMP upgrade ... have you even played Starcraft II once?

On April 14 2010 18:20 Skyze wrote:


I watched your replays man. I think you could of won at least 3 of those games, just micro. Like the one where you sent marauders to his base when he got the prism.. You WALKED into his probes, he didnt surround you, and your army should of been able to take his army easily if you didnt make that mistake. The fast reaper game, you shoulda got at least 3-4 probes but you attacked the PYLON?? wow. No wonder. The Banshee game where you fast expo'd to the island, You held his 3gate+immortals off with a super fast expo and 1 starport banshee with no marauders.. Just imagine what would of happened if you got marauders instead of marines, or 2starport banshees? He would of been tapping out in seconds.

And last but not least, the thing that bugs me the most, the game where hes on 12 and your on 3, he does prism 2immortal harassing.. You try to fend it off with marine/tank again, the EXACT units Immortals are made to counter. As soon as you have 3 marauders there, he flys away because he knows 3 marauder > 2 immortals.. Yet you chose marines/tanks the whole earlygame therefor losing at least 1000 minerals in being outmicroed/bad unit combos. You said its worse than reavers, well the equivilant of going marine/tank vs immortal drop is like going mass zerglings vs reaver drop and expecting to win, when 3 hydras can take it out.

Im starting to think this is merely a testament to Mezmerize being such a better player than the terrans hes playing in these replays (from the OP and Mente), that is why he is winning with ease. It would be the same as if I went against Demuslim in 5 PvT's, I would get owned everygame with ease.. Does that mean Terran is way better than toss?? No. Its just the players playing have a large skill gap.

Someone hook up Mezmerize vs Demuslim or any top terran like LZ on US server, and I doubt the results will be similar.

On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP

not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.

if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really.

On April 13 2010 23:43 Floophead_III wrote:Hey Floophead, I feel kind of bad for not recognizing the real problem. I know what you really need. I heard you can get some at this site: http://www.tampax.com/en-US/home/home.aspx

On April 15 2010 07:57 abominare wrote:
I would say nerf immortals but as the unholy trinity goes weakening one just presents a whole new set of challenges for the other races tinity member stomping the other race. Rather I'd like to see a unit transformed into a role to better answer immortal but less effective on other units, maybe give hellions an ability that drains hardened shields quickly? Like a flame pulse that does 10 dmg over and over again till it reaches 100 dmg to just one unit, napalm pre-coating? It might revitalize mech play a little vs protoss.

On April 15 2010 06:58 Prozen wrote:
Floop, if you don't mind, would you mind telling me roughly what Morrow's FE build is? Is it roughly similar to this build?


and


I'm asking, because this build deals with Immortals just fine and iirc, it's similar to Morrow's build. Yet you said Morrow's build just gets destroyed by the push. I'm just trying to find the best transition after defending the first push. Also, another strategy that I've found useful that people may have already mentioned is going 5 Reapers, harassing the Protoss, then switching to Marauders + EMP quickly, and stay in your base and don't expand until the Protoss expands. Hopefully, your harass will kill enough so that you can mass up your army and keep the Protoss flustered. Azz agreed that this is also a pretty good strategy for the Terran to use.

On April 15 2010 19:49 newbcake wrote:
Ok, just found and tested a strategy that gives easy wins vs any protoss that immortal pushes without scouting and changing strategy. Build 3 rax and get upgrades in this order: attack upgrade, stim, shield upgrade. All gas goes to getting marine upgrades and 1 ghost. When the protoss attacks, you'll have attack and stim and easily defend against his attack, especially if you emp most of his forces. If he doesn't attack, then wait for shield upgrade to finish and go attack him, while slowly teching to medivacs and vikings. Upgraded 1-1 marines with both tech lab upgrades beat all gateway units and immortals. The only problem you'll have with this strat is vs colossus.

Marines are vastly vastly underestimated. Mass upgraded marines + ghost can easily defend a ramp and break even fighting on open ground. The only problem is marines build slow as molasses, so you need lots of barracks to keep up with production. Why make marauders or tanks when they die in 3 hits, the same as a marine? Right now I'm just fine tuning this strategy to account for switches to colo and templar tech.

On April 16 2010 15:09 Slurgi wrote:



Marines are not vastly underestimated in TvP. We terran players aren't fools, and we're massing marauders out of necessity, not because they're imbalanced.

There are two huge flaws with what you've proposed:

1) Guardian shield. Since most protoss units have one armor, you are cutting the effectiveness of your entire army by 3/5. That's pretty terrible.

2) Collossi. So let's say your force is too much for the protoss to handle with his 4-gate timing push or fast immortals. Why should the protoss throw units away? He can just run away, make 1 or 2 collossi, and you'll regret making all of those marines.


Anyway, for what it's worth, I feel the same sentiment as the original poster. I really wanna stick with Terran, but I feel like we've got the shaft right now, that's for sure.

On April 16 2010 16:04 Floophead_III wrote:


In addition stalkers actually can hit and run vs marines very easily, so toss could in theory hit and run all the way back to his base. If you want to stim you might kill a couple stalkers but without medivacs that's going to really weaken you for the full engagement. It's no different than dragoons in BW vs marines really.