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FE to an island or in-between 2 sets of D. Rocks
How about FE with a PF and 1-2 Bunkers?
Immortals and Marauders +armored damage is too much V buildings:
16 Marauder hits to kill a Cannon
9 Immortal hits to kill a Bunker
4 Marauders with Medivac escort will take down a Nexus in 78 seconds using Stim
2 Immortals will take down a CC in 22.2 seconds
Its hard to spend resources on defence or building blocks when each race has a super building razer
Taking away the armored modifier on all buildings (excepting PFs) and having them listed as just structures could change PvT overuse of Marauders/Immortals
Banshees Void Rays DT Archons BCs Tanks Thors would be the building busters
Stalkers deal less damage with armored mod removed but Blink is for units
Tanks lose damage V buildings in track mode but deal full damage in siege mode
Flying buildings might need to regain armored mod because Stalkers would take quite a while to kill them
OL/OSs could also have armored mod removed (Vikings and Stalkers dealing extra damage to Zerg food is kinda unfair considering they only have 200HP)
Lack of Tank use in PvT is a bit of a downer
Head on it would be suicide for Tanks to engage Immortals
But with high-ground Watch Towers Medivac transport and building/air spotters Tanks should have a defined role in Sc2
2 Medivacs 2 Tanks 1 Ghost 3 SCVs 3 Marines = 1050M 650G task force or if that's too much add 1SCV/Marine and take away the Ghost (1000M 500G)
Immortals could use a +10BT because of Chrono Boosting and Marauders +25G increase (if slow would still effect light units)
Terrans just need to try new strats V Toss
How about using Ghosts with Medivac escort to kill workers - 8 Snipes + 2-shot worker Kills = a lot of economic damage by the time Toss reacts
Or if Toss opponent has an army stationed by his resources Cloak + 6 Snipes
Ravens Missiles used V Immortals/HT/Colossus takes away a lot of Toss's army strength AT-drops should also see more usage V workers and PDDs used if Toss goes Stalker mad
What ever happened to the Sc1 scan and snipe V Observers? With 9R Vikings sniping Obs should be pretty easy
Followed by Cloaked Ghost/Banshees and Toss would be forced to retreat or get more Obs
BCs with a few Ravens for PDDs could work but watch out for Feedback
Marines with Tank support can benefit each other - Marines spot for Tanks 13R and take down Immortals shields Tanks target Sentries/Stalkers/Zealots until Immortal shields are downed - micro intensive
Marauders using slow on Toss allows Tanks to get the max number of shots before having to unseize
Early Banshees on T high ground with a ramp block and SCV support should be viable V an early Immortal push
Gateway C. Core Robo builds are almost standard in PvT because Toss air/Colossus are super weak to Vikings
9R is too good for the versatile cheep massible Viking without a T3 upgrade (7R with +2R upgrade at Fusion Core)
V Terran the Phoenix's only change needs to be Graviton Beams range increased to 6 (BCs are not common so Phoenixs puny damage is alright)
Void Rays - Give them back their original 6 12 24 charged attack to justify +50M -1A nerf
Carriers - Vikings supreme range + 24 damage MTs with upgrades for 8R and 2A + Thors 48 0.5 splash 10R damage V Interceptors + Marines = Carriers useless V T
Give Carriers back their ability to move-attack even at a watered down version from Sc1 - Interceptors might need a HP/SP buff +50M(400M) for Carriers to start with 8 I's is another option
MS - needs a complete do-over
500M 500G 180BT attack 10X10 R7 normal ROF 400HP 600SP 2A movement speed = normal
10R Cloak is its only ability
Damage does not overkill - excess shots will automatically be redirected to its next target
Marines do face a hindrance with Guardian Shield and the 1A all but Probes/HT ground forces start with
4/3 damage (4/2 with ground armor1 or 3/3 with shields1) might seem puny but for cost Marines still beat Sentries/Stalkers
Sentry 80 health 1A 8DPS = 3 Marines 135 health 4.7DPS(3) V shields 3.5DPS(3) [G-Shield included in calculations]
Stalker 160 health 1A +1R 5.56DPS V above Marine stats
Marine BT for producing a single unit should revert back to 20 but if an Reactor is used 25BT is reasonable
Terrans might have to get 2 gas instead of just 1 gas for Marauder/Marines if the Immortal/Sentry push becomes standardized in PvT
Mix your tactics up and hopefully Toss and Zerg will follow suit
That's about all I have to say for PvT (I'm so proud I only mentioned Zerg once indirectly/directly  )
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On April 16 2010 16:42 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 16:04 Floophead_III wrote:On April 16 2010 15:09 Slurgi wrote:On April 15 2010 19:49 newbcake wrote:
Ok, just found and tested a strategy that gives easy wins vs any protoss that immortal pushes without scouting and changing strategy. Build 3 rax and get upgrades in this order: attack upgrade, stim, shield upgrade. All gas goes to getting marine upgrades and 1 ghost. When the protoss attacks, you'll have attack and stim and easily defend against his attack, especially if you emp most of his forces. If he doesn't attack, then wait for shield upgrade to finish and go attack him, while slowly teching to medivacs and vikings. Upgraded 1-1 marines with both tech lab upgrades beat all gateway units and immortals. The only problem you'll have with this strat is vs colossus.
Marines are vastly vastly underestimated. Mass upgraded marines + ghost can easily defend a ramp and break even fighting on open ground. The only problem is marines build slow as molasses, so you need lots of barracks to keep up with production. Why make marauders or tanks when they die in 3 hits, the same as a marine? Right now I'm just fine tuning this strategy to account for switches to colo and templar tech. Marines are not vastly underestimated in TvP. We terran players aren't fools, and we're massing marauders out of necessity, not because they're imbalanced. There are two huge flaws with what you've proposed: 1) Guardian shield. Since most protoss units have one armor, you are cutting the effectiveness of your entire army by 3/5. That's pretty terrible. 2) Collossi. So let's say your force is too much for the protoss to handle with his 4-gate timing push or fast immortals. Why should the protoss throw units away? He can just run away, make 1 or 2 collossi, and you'll regret making all of those marines. Anyway, for what it's worth, I feel the same sentiment as the original poster. I really wanna stick with Terran, but I feel like we've got the shaft right now, that's for sure. In addition stalkers actually can hit and run vs marines very easily, so toss could in theory hit and run all the way back to his base. If you want to stim you might kill a couple stalkers but without medivacs that's going to really weaken you for the full engagement. It's no different than dragoons in BW vs marines really. Stalkers are quite a bit more expensive than a marine, and a half tier higher in tech. I would certainly hope they were at least able to retreat from marines if met with a loosing engagement. Do you think zealots should win handily against marauders with no support? That clearly isn't the case. Why then should marines destroy stalkers? I'm guessing there is some underlying assumption of sentries that i'm not seeing here. I think you should stick with the stronger case for balance (immortals) here. Claming your marines loose to stalkers isn't going to impress anyone. I understand if you're frustrated and want to vent, but seriously, this thread and the other one are already saturated with this stuff and your claims have gone from well-founded to silly. Still waiting on you to post more replays aswell.
problems with marines are:
1. they lose vs anything out of the warpgate early. zealots beat em straight up,stalkers too.
2. they need shields and stim to be effective.none of the P units "need" em to put up a fight.
3. they build time is downrght retarded (kneejerk "fix" by blizzard cause marine/scv allins were too strong)
4. sentries reduce marines dmg by 1/3.
5. P can just wait till he has storm/collosi and kill 50 marines with aclick or 3 storms.
and considering whole factory tech gets countered by immortals there really isnt much left.
so T has to go mass marauder which again fight a uphill battle vs standart gate+immortal aclick action.
tvp is broken right now.it was broken already pre patch8 but early rauder aggression overshadowed all the flaws the matchup has.
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None of the P units "get" upgrades (asside from hallucinate) until t2. Comparing those to tech lab upgrades isn't quite a fair asessment. And marines should loose to zealots (if they are attacking) in the same way zealots alone should loose to marines defending. It really depends on position, numbers, choke point, bunkers, and any number of other factors, but yes, if you a-move some zeals and marines together in an open field, i'd reckon the marines were fucked.
I'll grant you the marine "kneejerk," didn't seem thought out, but they did what they had to do in order to stop scv rushing. Hopefully they correct this with some kind of compromise buff to reactors or marines. That being said, you don't seem to place a lot of faith in large numbers of marines either...
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On April 16 2010 17:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 16:42 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 16 2010 16:04 Floophead_III wrote:On April 16 2010 15:09 Slurgi wrote:On April 15 2010 19:49 newbcake wrote:
Ok, just found and tested a strategy that gives easy wins vs any protoss that immortal pushes without scouting and changing strategy. Build 3 rax and get upgrades in this order: attack upgrade, stim, shield upgrade. All gas goes to getting marine upgrades and 1 ghost. When the protoss attacks, you'll have attack and stim and easily defend against his attack, especially if you emp most of his forces. If he doesn't attack, then wait for shield upgrade to finish and go attack him, while slowly teching to medivacs and vikings. Upgraded 1-1 marines with both tech lab upgrades beat all gateway units and immortals. The only problem you'll have with this strat is vs colossus.
Marines are vastly vastly underestimated. Mass upgraded marines + ghost can easily defend a ramp and break even fighting on open ground. The only problem is marines build slow as molasses, so you need lots of barracks to keep up with production. Why make marauders or tanks when they die in 3 hits, the same as a marine? Right now I'm just fine tuning this strategy to account for switches to colo and templar tech. Marines are not vastly underestimated in TvP. We terran players aren't fools, and we're massing marauders out of necessity, not because they're imbalanced. There are two huge flaws with what you've proposed: 1) Guardian shield. Since most protoss units have one armor, you are cutting the effectiveness of your entire army by 3/5. That's pretty terrible. 2) Collossi. So let's say your force is too much for the protoss to handle with his 4-gate timing push or fast immortals. Why should the protoss throw units away? He can just run away, make 1 or 2 collossi, and you'll regret making all of those marines. Anyway, for what it's worth, I feel the same sentiment as the original poster. I really wanna stick with Terran, but I feel like we've got the shaft right now, that's for sure. In addition stalkers actually can hit and run vs marines very easily, so toss could in theory hit and run all the way back to his base. If you want to stim you might kill a couple stalkers but without medivacs that's going to really weaken you for the full engagement. It's no different than dragoons in BW vs marines really. Stalkers are quite a bit more expensive than a marine, and a half tier higher in tech. I would certainly hope they were at least able to retreat from marines if met with a loosing engagement. Do you think zealots should win handily against marauders with no support? That clearly isn't the case. Why then should marines destroy stalkers? I'm guessing there is some underlying assumption of sentries that i'm not seeing here. I think you should stick with the stronger case for balance (immortals) here. Claming your marines loose to stalkers isn't going to impress anyone. I understand if you're frustrated and want to vent, but seriously, this thread and the other one are already saturated with this stuff and your claims have gone from well-founded to silly. Still waiting on you to post more replays aswell. problems with marines are: 1. they lose vs anything out of the warpgate early. zealots beat em straight up,stalkers too. 2. they need shields and stim to be effective.none of the P units "need" em to put up a fight. 3. they build time is downrght retarded (kneejerk "fix" by blizzard cause marine/scv allins were too strong) 4. sentries reduce marines dmg by 1/3. 5. P can just wait till he has storm/collosi and kill 50 marines with aclick or 3 storms. and considering whole factory tech gets countered by immortals there really isnt much left. so T has to go mass marauder which again fight a uphill battle vs standart gate+immortal aclick action. tvp is broken right now.it was broken already pre patch8 but early rauder aggression overshadowed all the flaws the matchup has.
Marines are very cheap and of course they are supposed to lose to zealots and stalkers straight up. Zealots cost twice as much and stalkers cost even more. They need shields and stim, but do not underestimate the power of the shields and stim. Stim increases dps by a huge amount and the shield is almost a 25% increase in hp. Build time is retarded, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Sentries do reduce damage by a large amount, but they're pretty weak and easy to focus fire down. If you let your marines sit under 3 storms there's something seriously wrong with your micro...but either way marines are really more of a support/extra dps unit in SC2 than anything else.
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On April 16 2010 17:17 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
None of the P units "get" upgrades (asside from hallucinate) until t2. Comparing those to tech lab upgrades isn't quite a fair asessment. And marines should loose to zealots (if they are attacking) in the same way zealots alone should loose to marines defending. It really depends on position, numbers, choke point, bunkers, and any number of other factors, but yes, if you a-move some zeals and marines together in an open field, i'd reckon the marines were fucked.
I'll grant you the marine "kneejerk," didn't seem thought out, but they did what they had to do in order to stop scv rushing. Hopefully they correct this with some kind of compromise buff to reactors or marines. That being said, you don't seem to place a lot of faith in large numbers of marines either...
yea because unlike terran toss has most of his "upgrades" already done for free.
dont worry in next patch u will get your upgrades, im sure they will do something with immortal and sentry.
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I just watched that and yea he was being overly sensitive and BM but he was right that the first push you did was pretty bad.
You traded
2 collosi
5 stalkers
4 zealots
2 immortals
1 sentry
for
6 marauders
2 tanks
1 scv
1 turret building
+ some emp energy (he still had a few emps left after that though)
Other than that I don't think you dominated him or anything, you caught him out of position and pushed which pretty much won the game.
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The fact that he feels its necessary to post things like that only prove his immaturity. I BM'd cause it was amusing, but he beat me cause I played badly, that's all. I definitely was surprised by the effectiveness of mass coli, and perhaps adding in a fair number of thors would be a strong choice if I see that type of army composition. Coli take 9 tank hits to kill, but tanks take 4 coli shots, so when you have mass vs mass colis seem to be stronger. I was definitely caught with terrible positioning and had miserably bad control there.
His first push was oddly timed and poorly executed, but I don't think he could've done any real damage with it. I ended up with an army advantage and a faster expo. I probably could've even pushed up more soon after and taken a very fast 3rd.
I think the build was actually pretty effective. I'm definitely shying away from marines due to guardian shield and marauders have better hp per cost which is important because you need a meatshield for tanks to be effective. Also they have better range.
I think perhaps actually doing a 1-2 bunker 1 rax 1 fact fast ghost expo might be possible. My only concern is immortal drops but perhaps I can have turrets in time for that. I'd need to play more to see.
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On April 19 2010 07:30 Floophead_III wrote:
The fact that he feels its necessary to post things like that only prove his immaturity. I BM'd cause it was amusing, but he beat me cause I played badly, that's all. I definitely was surprised by the effectiveness of mass coli, and perhaps adding in a fair number of thors would be a strong choice if I see that type of army composition. Coli take 9 tank hits to kill, but tanks take 4 coli shots, so when you have mass vs mass colis seem to be stronger. I was definitely caught with terrible positioning and had miserably bad control there.
His first push was oddly timed and poorly executed, but I don't think he could've done any real damage with it. I ended up with an army advantage and a faster expo. I probably could've even pushed up more soon after and taken a very fast 3rd.
I think the build was actually pretty effective. I'm definitely shying away from marines due to guardian shield and marauders have better hp per cost which is important because you need a meatshield for tanks to be effective. Also they have better range.
I think perhaps actually doing a 1-2 bunker 1 rax 1 fact fast ghost expo might be possible. My only concern is immortal drops but perhaps I can have turrets in time for that. I'd need to play more to see.
besides orb randomly coming into the thread and posting a replay with bm chat in it to derail the thread...
You won't be able to do a 1-2bunker fast ghost expo like that and defend from drops. It's one or the other, and you need 5-7 bunkers, not 2, as 3-4 immortals and mass gateway units push will rip through your bunkers, even if you were to try to repair they forcefield around the bunkers making that impossible.
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Do you have a particular reason for saying that? Provide some reasoning or evidence to back that statement up since I hardly believe you need 5-7 bunkers. Tanks demolish gateway units in siege mode, and emps should handle immortals fine. It's not like the tanks are sitting out in the middle of the open to be pancaked. Positioning is still the #1 factor in making something like this work.
Tell me why you think the 3 warpgate immortal aggression would beat this please before jumping to conclusions.
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On April 19 2010 09:02 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 07:30 Floophead_III wrote:
The fact that he feels its necessary to post things like that only prove his immaturity. I BM'd cause it was amusing, but he beat me cause I played badly, that's all. I definitely was surprised by the effectiveness of mass coli, and perhaps adding in a fair number of thors would be a strong choice if I see that type of army composition. Coli take 9 tank hits to kill, but tanks take 4 coli shots, so when you have mass vs mass colis seem to be stronger. I was definitely caught with terrible positioning and had miserably bad control there.
His first push was oddly timed and poorly executed, but I don't think he could've done any real damage with it. I ended up with an army advantage and a faster expo. I probably could've even pushed up more soon after and taken a very fast 3rd.
I think the build was actually pretty effective. I'm definitely shying away from marines due to guardian shield and marauders have better hp per cost which is important because you need a meatshield for tanks to be effective. Also they have better range.
I think perhaps actually doing a 1-2 bunker 1 rax 1 fact fast ghost expo might be possible. My only concern is immortal drops but perhaps I can have turrets in time for that. I'd need to play more to see. besides orb randomly coming into the thread and posting a replay with bm chat in it to derail the thread... You won't be able to do a 1-2bunker fast ghost expo like that and defend from drops. It's one or the other, and you need 5-7 bunkers, not 2, as 3-4 immortals and mass gateway units push will rip through your bunkers, even if you were to try to repair they forcefield around the bunkers making that impossible.
Pretty much did it cause he came into my thread and posted a link to the tampax website saying that's what he thought I needed despite his thread being a whine thread while my thread was backed up by mathematics and solid replays
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-orb- vs floophead BO9 GO
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On April 19 2010 09:54 EmeraldSparks wrote:
-orb- vs floophead BO9 GO
Done. He'll dodge though. Kid is all talk no walk.
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On April 19 2010 10:08 Floophead_III wrote:Done. He'll dodge though. Kid is all talk no walk.
All talk no walk, funny how I just schooled you and the rep is above.
gg 2 ez
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Funny how above that there's a rep of me schooling you.
gg 2 ez.
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You nerds should just have a showmatch already lol.
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Hahah I watched the replay. Some hilarious shit. I don't understand why floop didn't get any vikings to take out the colossi. What a nub.
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On April 19 2010 11:23 Smoyf wrote:
Hahah I watched the replay. Some hilarious shit. I don't understand why floop didn't get any vikings to take out the colossi. What a nub.
I didn't know how good mass colossi were vs mass tanks given the outcome of his first attack. Yes, it was a "nub mistake". I actually think thors might be a better option seeing as they absorb coli hits whereas vikings won't actually protect your tanks. Also you already have factories so it's a lot easier to make the switch. And thors are awesome. Who the hell doesn't like thors?
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EPT
