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On April 19 2010 18:05 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:18 Wretched wrote:
the immortal problem is actually a sentry problem.
this is because units with with small quick attacks that should theoretically counter immortals, are made redundant by use of guardian shield and forcefield.
nerfing sentrys will make marines more cost effective, causing the protooss player to tech to aoe, and in turn the terran player will also tech to counter whatever protoss plans.
and balance to the universe shall be restored.
Unless they want to rename the game to:
Starcraft II: The Immortal Push
i have to put up with it as zerg as well.
Or you could.. micro? =P Honestly... the best nerf you can give a sentry is to targetfire it down. These aren't thors we're talking about, they melt like butter if you'd bother to actually control your units. And forcefield is useless unless you have 4-5 of them, at which point there better be a ghost on the field. Unless of course you park your units on top of a ramp while leaving your expo unprotected, in which case my advice would be.. don't do that. I mean, what kind of immortal pushes do these people do against you? do they have like 10 sentries or something? What exactly prevents you from engaging the toss army mid-way to burn some of their forcefields down? Heck you could sack half your army to kill every sentry he has and laugh as his remaining force melts to your reinforcements. I honestly don't find force field trouble at all in TvP. There's so many ways to deal with it. I WOULD find forcefield troublesome though if I never bothered to scout and if some giant toss ball showed up at my naturals' choke unannounced, but then I would blame myself, not the sentries
Thank god for a terran turning this into the right direction :-)
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im talking about guardian shield as well. this makes marines do only 4 damage instead of 6.
and ironically, forcefields stop you from being able to micro. Good players know when to use it at the right time. And good luck focus firing all the sentries down while the other units stamp on your face.
and yes, if they knew you were going to make so many marines, they probably would make a shitload of sentries.
whatever, the point is, when combined with the immortals, sentries just tip the balance a little bit tooo far in the wrong direction.
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Like I said, guardian shield can be handled by killing the sentry. The other units may be "stomping your face" while you do so, but that's true in every scenario where you focus fire one unit in an army.. yes the other enemy units are still firing at you. If, as you point out, force field is preventing your range 5 marines to shoot at the range 5 sentry then there's an incredibly easy fix for that: move your army back a bit and re-engage. Just practice some games against a protoss opponent and test out different ways of microing instead of moping about the ability. I'm telling you that it can be handled. You can either believe that and practice how to, or you can keep posting "buts" and "ifs" in this thread.
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are we playing different games? its impossible to kill sentries when your army is divided to pieces due the force fields and zealots/stalkers/sentry rip your marine/marauder combo to pieces (assuming hes making 4warp gate rush and you FE), try playing the game first before you give advices
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the point is, if you didn't have to 'handle' the sentries so much, marines would be more effective, and the push would not be as difficult to deal with..
do you disagree on this?
you know theres something wrong, when protoss can do almost the same timing push on both terran and zerg
and this also means the players have twice as much practice doing it, making the situation even worse
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So with only 1-2 ghost (since you're talking about the early immortal + sentry/zealot/stalker "rush") you can nullify P's ability to 1) force field block you 2) guardian shield 3) immortal's "imba" hardened shield.
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yeah, because all top protoss players bunch all their immortals and sentries together put them on a plate and tie a bow around them for you.
and teching to ghosts is free.
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Teching to ghosts is free? Wow you guys should get those more often.
EMP, despite its nerf still hits a very large area, so its not hard for 2 EMPs to wipe out pretty much all the sentries and immortals because at most they'll probably be in two groups. Keeping Templar separated is hard enough without having to keep every other unit separated into several groups.
I feel like pretty soon people will be calling Protoss scrubs if they don't keep every unit 4 feet from another unit.
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On April 19 2010 18:36 lolreaper wrote:
are we playing different games? its impossible to kill sentries when your army is divided to pieces due the force fields and zealots/stalkers/sentry rip your marine/marauder combo to pieces (assuming hes making 4warp gate rush and you FE), try playing the game first before you give advices
What keeps you from harming the fragile sentries? Unless you're just failing to target them in the first place, I assure you that they die from a stiff breeze. And you seem good at assuming the protoss player will do X, Y, or Z timing push of death. How's about you scout your opponent, familiarize yourself with some of the dozen replays that have gone into the other TvP thread, and actually counter instead of QQ'ing at the perfect storm of sentries and immos rolling you at your own ramp? Stop posting and start playing.
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Forcefield has a range of 9. One of the big nerf ideas I've heard floating around is to FF cast range. The only unit that will be able to kill a sentry before it slices and dices your army is the siege tank. This is the primary reason I go for tank based play. Unfortunately, 4 warpgate push and 3 gate robo are extraordinarily difficult to hold at all with tanks, much less the same build. In BW at least supply depots did a fair job of protecting your fragile tanks. They drop so fast in sc2 =/
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I find it hard to believe there are still some players here saying immortals are completely fine. Immortals break the pvt game more than roaches did, except for maybe in zvz.
Every game right now is basically P x2warpgate/roboing or x1warpgate/fast immortals and literally a-moving into your walls/base.
You have to react just to counter the immortal itself, and with the forcefields/stalker/whatever the hell he wants to bring with it, it becomes so difficult to stop 2-3 immortals + mass gateway units.
If you FE, you basically are fucked and will barely hold, but you must stay on 2-4 rax to survive it, letting protoss expo freely to the CnC gold minerals if they want, or just take their nat and add on even more gates/pressure till you are dead/have no map control.
if you don't FE, you're relying on the guy sucking and not defending his base from a hellion drop, or hoping he does not just counter-attack you for the free win. no FE builds you will not be able to afford ghosts mech, airmech is not going to work here either, so the only non-FE builds that do work are marauder based, and they also end up sucking horribly vs good toss that are abusing immortals.
and yah, 4rax FE dies to collosus. They do not have to expo, they just get collosus off their robo and all stalker/sentry/zealot and break you while they expand and they are ahead every time.
so the most you can hope to do tvp is harrass while barely staying alive, and getting set up with either marauder/medivac/ghost, or getting set up into ghostmech, or lasting long enough to accumulate enough banshees to do something.
otherwise P>T, immortals are too cost effective. I doubt anyone can argue that they are not. Too cost effective, and way too easy to abuse/use. Same goes for Protoss's new tier1 stasis OH I meant forcefield lmao!
with that said though, IF, and that's a huge IF, you can get set up into a mid-game, then it is possible to play a very even game with EMP's vs immortals, viking vs collosus, etc. the problem is all of the insanely easy shit toss can do to kill you before then. 
what is worse are the noobies online that play P and think they are good enough to give you advice on the tvp situation post-game. I played a TvP where as usual, I got frustrated by a stupid bust of just an a-move into my base from another P scrub with immortals/sentry/zealot.
I say, "immortals are so broken sighs" and he says, "do not expand so early, so you have more units"
lol? apparently protosses do not realize you can't do jack shit other than FE or do a semi-all in marauders into expo to compete vs immortals. and every single option Terran has literally has a huge "kill me" sign on it. There really is no safe 100% option Terran has for immortals, like in SC1, you could siege expand as a standard play, and yes you could die to a bulldog, or a similar type of attack.
But it was no where near as cost effective or easy to pull of as simply a-move walking immortals to the T and insta-blocking their shit with low costing force fields lol.
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The thing is, nothing REALLY changed between the patches that made Protoss absolutely able to dominate Terran, I feel like Blizzard should re-look over that patch, or previous patches. Patching what looks wrong may just be the community's style of play, and now that Protoss have fine tuned their BO's, it may be time to give back some nerfed terran stuff.
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Before i make my post i want to share that i am only a rank 6 to 8 platinum protoss player so not that good. I read all these posts about immortals being impossible to beat as T so i decided to try my hand at terran. I am currently 13/0 vs protoss, they go immortals every game. I am not saying my strat works at the highest levels because i have no idea. I go three rax with reactor as my first rax addon, then 2 tech labs. The second my first tech lab comes up i research stim, this is all off of one gas. i ship my troops out to arrive at toss entrance right as stim finishes with one scanner sweep saved and i kill them 85% of the time. While i am pushing i throw up my expo and toss can never get back in the game. Have you higher ranked guys tried a strat similar to this and found it ineffective?
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Yeah, I play Terran, and while immortal/sentry/stalker pushes are strong, EVERY PROTOSS does it EVERY TIME, so all you have to do is prepare for it because the lack of diversity between protoss players in the Platinum league is pretty astounding but it removes any surprises.
As long as you focus fire the immortals (otherwise they rip your army up fast), I find that my bio army does alright, and make sure to always scout for proxy pylons since a lot of said protoss hide proxy pylons (I had one guy hide 3, and I found 2 thinking he had given up trying to hide them - oh how wrong I was).
Also, just play defensive for the first bit otherwise if you push the protoss's ramp he'll force field half your units and counter-push for the GG. I find a lot of protoss will also place cannons, so that gives you a 150~300+ mineral advantage right off the back in terms of a defensive encounter on your part.
Besides, you can always do a fast reaper rush if you're still having troubles.
I personally go 3 rax 2 tech 1 reactor, research stim/concussion depending on how heavy the army is of stalkers (more stalkers, I opt for stim. more zealots, I opt for concussion). Then you expand when you're making the push.
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Huk has repeatedly shown that 3 rax play is not viable. Even with EMP people still seem to lose horribly vs his 3 warpgate/robo play. I tried my hand at terran vs antimage (I believe). I did multirax bio with fast stim and he did immortal/gateway and I just died.
The problem with relying on builds specifically tailored to kill is protoss can do something else. Drop play, colossus, and even just FE play are all viable options upon scouting your build. If they go for another type of aggressive opening such as 4 gate, you'll be doomed. It's exactly what Nony was saying in his "metagame" thread - don't do builds because other people are doing specific builds; do something viable vs many openings. The problem is that right now, that's pretty freaking difficult.
I believe the answer lies in some sort of 1 rax 1 fact fast siege + ghost style play. Until blizzard releases another patch we all are just going to have to keep experimenting.
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sdfgh. didn't read. edited because i don't know how to delete. Did you 3 rax with reactor as your first addon? Can you post your replay of getting destroyed by huk when you went 3 rax fast stim. I am super curious how it is possible for him to produce nonstop immortals and units out of that before your stim completes.
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I never played HuK, but if there are replays of the craft cup you'll see what I was talking about. I did not see anyone doing early reactor, but I don't believe that'd make much of a difference. 2 marines do 3 damage a shot with guardian shield/4 to immo shields, 1 marauder does 7 to light/10 to immo shields/17 to armored. I don't see how marines are any better. In addition 1 mara has 125 hp as opposed to 45+45 for 2 marines. Marines would be better if it wasn't for guardian shield though, I will give you that.
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Guardian shields COMPLETELY negate the possibility of mixing in marines into your ground force. The sentry carries it's own weight in combat while reducing your marine dps by 40% (because most toss units have 1 starting armor).
Marines are NOT the answer to immortals. Ghosts and marauders are the soft counter to immortals. It's too bad that zealots/stalker + sentries provide such a ridiculously good meat sheild for the immortals. Both marines and marauders are TERRIBLE against zealot/stalker/sentrie.
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you can easily target fire sentries... Why don't you just try the build out and see what happens before blindly dismissing it. Play it a few games and if it doesn't work i will happily admit i am wrong. I went 13/0 with it though having never played terran before..
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On April 20 2010 03:53 Couvre wrote:
you can easily target fire sentries... Why don't you just try the build out and see what happens before blindly dismissing it. Play it a few games and if it doesn't work i will happily admit i am wrong. I went 13/0 with it though having never played terran before..
no you cant. forcefields + 3-4 dmg per marine + range 5 + zeals blocking .show me how you FF down 5++ sentrys before 3/4 of your army are dead. and if the p does anything different your whole gameplan just is obsolete. its not like you can contain him for long and you cant kill him either cause he can simply block the ramp and wait till he can bust out and either kill your right away with his tech or double expo cause he has mapcontrol now.
also if you go marine heavy you have to keep in mind that once P techs kicks in (templar or collosus) half of your army is entirely useless.
but ofc if you have reps vs a decent toss that doesnt just go 2 gate mass immortal and just aclicks then share em.
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EPT
