EPT[H] TvP - The Immortal Problem. - Page 23
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On April 20 2010 03:53 Couvre wrote: you can easily target fire sentries... Why don't you just try the build out and see what happens before blindly dismissing it. Play it a few games and if it doesn't work i will happily admit i am wrong. I went 13/0 with it though having never played terran before.. Why dont you give a replay? | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On April 20 2010 03:36 Floophead_III wrote: I never played HuK, but if there are replays of the craft cup you'll see what I was talking about. I did not see anyone doing early reactor, but I don't believe that'd make much of a difference. 2 marines do 3 damage a shot with guardian shield/4 to immo shields, 1 marauder does 7 to light/10 to immo shields/17 to armored. I don't see how marines are any better. In addition 1 mara has 125 hp as opposed to 45+45 for 2 marines. Marines would be better if it wasn't for guardian shield though, I will give you that. Other important thing you are missing is P has no units that do extra dmg vs marines, they will take 20 not 50 dmg from immortals. So it leads us to decision to use marines as... meatshields. Well smthing is very wrong with tvp if you have to do that. | ||
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lolreaper
301 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On April 20 2010 04:31 Cheerio wrote: Other important thing you are missing is P has no units that do extra dmg vs marines, they will take 20 not 50 dmg from immortals. So it leads us to decision to use marines as... meatshields. Well smthing is very wrong with tvp if you have to do that. haha yeah thought the same recently. just gets even more weird when the first +1 collosus pops out and 1shots your entire meathsield ~~ maybe we should start massing hellions? still hope for some tweaking on the hellion to deal some of their +light dmg to shields also(ofc with upgrade) so they atleast somewhat resemble the use of vultures tvp. mech might get viable with that. | ||
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Thr33p3r
Great Britain4 Posts
I use this thread about TvP so I don't make a new topic. I'm pretty noob (gold league but you know... silber/gold/bronze... all about the same) and I play protoss. I have HUGE problems against terrans (like 1 win over 5 oO) and I am doing pretty well against toss and zerg. I want to make sure first that I don't complain about the MU. I'm not good enough to wine. But I juste come here to ask a few questions cause I know a lot of you here a pretty good players. I watched all the replays given in this thread. And I am disapointed cause none of them showed end/mid game of TvP with mass marauders + ghost + medivac. I just don't know how to fight them... I know there must be a way because I see so much posts about it but I rellay don't know. The terran keeps on one base and a-move his marauders. I go immo+sentry+collo+zealots but if I tech witch to HT, he will come on top with his army and it's over. I wait until b2/b3 to get HT but it's too late : he comes with mass mass mass marauders and I lose. Do you have any tips for a little noob ? Replays of showing a toss beating a M&M&M ball will really be welcomed. I just fell that OK protoss might be OP against terran. I don't know. But at my level, terran is by far the easiest race to play I feel cause no need to really micro whereas protoss has to mix a lot and micro feedback, etc. I might be totally wrong and I sure hope you will give me great examples. Really thanks to the community which brings a lot to SC2. Gratz. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On April 20 2010 04:31 Cheerio wrote: Other important thing you are missing is P has no units that do extra dmg vs marines, they will take 20 not 50 dmg from immortals. So it leads us to decision to use marines as... meatshields. Well smthing is very wrong with tvp if you have to do that. Until the toss has colossi, I love spamming a lot of marines and having them sit up front and take all the damage. | ||
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zs3000
United States43 Posts
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On April 20 2010 08:09 zs3000 wrote: I have the exact opposite problem than this guy, when I go immortals vs. Terran, I get overran by Marauders. I can't get away, any good terran will be able to micro there way to an easy win, 2 shotting each immortal with 10 or more marauders. Well see the battles I, personally, have toruble with have a significant amount of stalkers, and the marauders focusing on the immortals, that allows a lot of damage to be done to the army by Stalkers. So the real problem is that not that the immortals do too much damage by themselves, but that terran needs to attack them first. so if you put two immortals behind a huge army of stalkers, then your marauders need to run upto shoot them first, meanwhile stalkers take out the rest of the terran army. So, the armies i was having trouble against were exactly these compositions and placement. This brings about my idea of having ghosts/siege/marauder armies. Ghost and siege take out immortals and marauders the stalkers. | ||
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Hold-Lurker
United States403 Posts
Generally, there's a timing window, early game where Toss can exploit Terran FE with an immortal push which is what most of the "imba discussion" has revolved around, but mid to late game immortals do not stand up to large groups of marauders, particularly with stim and focus firing. You absolutely need to get collo or storm to fight back. | ||
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Gr33ned
Canada22 Posts
From what I gathered from the first few pages, either ghosts or tanks are the main solution here. Correct me if I'm wrong? | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On April 20 2010 08:54 Gr33ned wrote: Well, since I don't have the patience to read through 23 pages, has a viable solution to the problem been found yet? From what I gathered from the first few pages, either ghosts or tanks are the main solution here. Correct me if I'm wrong? There is no real solution. About 20 posts actually have substantial proof that something works, while the other 400 or so are made up of people flaming each other, people's 2cents, and theorycrafting. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 20 2010 08:54 Gr33ned wrote: Well, since I don't have the patience to read through 23 pages, has a viable solution to the problem been found yet? From what I gathered from the first few pages, either ghosts or tanks are the main solution here. Correct me if I'm wrong? There are solutions in the Terran vs. Protoss thread, including build details and replays. Trouble is that, much like here, it's buried deeper in useless venting posts. People read the OP, realize they have a similar issue, and rather than read through the rest of the posts they just rage at the fact they have the same problem. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 20 2010 11:26 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: There are solutions in the Terran vs. Protoss thread, including build details and replays. Trouble is that, much like here, it's buried deeper in useless venting posts. People read the OP, realize they have a similar issue, and rather than read through the rest of the posts they just rage at the fact they have the same problem. Re-read the entire thread. There are no "solutions" because you can't "solve" a unit that itself is virtually statistically imbalanced stats wise and now apparently overly cost effective. It shuts down way too many things of Terran. Yes, if you reach mid-game/late-game immortals no longer are such a devastating problem, but your opponent is going to be using high templar/collosus by that point, as well as immortals. The real issue are the vast amount of all-ins, semi-all-ins, and aggressive things that P can do to you as T that you have no good "solution" for. You cannot 1 base mech against immortals, it is virtually instant loss. And of course it then follows that you cannot 1 base ghostmech (i have tried it, it's horribly bad) as you are relying on 1-2 perfect EMP's as well as superior force which you would not have playing off 1 base vs a protoss 1 base immortal push. So, what most T are doing are attempting different FE variations, and other tech builds into FE variations, because 1 base play we know is not viable vs 1 base protoss immortals. But the same exact problem exists even worse with the FE varations, you'll still have not enough units to hold off an all-in immortal build, or other aggressive build involving immortals... except with marauders. Which is why you see a lot of high level players such as demuslim posting here and mentioning that us Terrans would be building other things other than the marauder as the base of our army...if the other things actually were balanced and viable. But they are not. it is just a difficult situation to be in right now just getting a tvp. the plan for most good T right now is to survive to mid-game with your natural, and then you are good to go from there with marauder based armies (mmm), ghostmech, or airmech. the trouble is surviving to that point in the game vs insanely easy things toss can do like a x2 immortal drop. Reaver drops were insanely viable but also insanely stoppable. Immortal drops though shit on the reaver. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 20 2010 11:40 avilo wrote: Re-read the entire thread. There are no "solutions" because you can't "solve" a unit that itself is virtually statistically imbalanced stats wise and now apparently overly cost effective. It shuts down way too many things of Terran. Yes, if you reach mid-game/late-game immortals no longer are such a devastating problem, but your opponent is going to be using high templar/collosus by that point, as well as immortals. The real issue are the vast amount of all-ins, semi-all-ins, and aggressive things that P can do to you as T that you have no good "solution" for. You cannot 1 base mech against immortals, it is virtually instant loss. And of course it then follows that you cannot 1 base ghostmech (i have tried it, it's horribly bad) as you are relying on 1-2 perfect EMP's as well as superior force which you would not have playing off 1 base vs a protoss 1 base immortal push. So, what most T are doing are attempting different FE variations, and other tech builds into FE variations, because 1 base play we know is not viable vs 1 base protoss immortals. But the same exact problem exists even worse with the FE varations, you'll still have not enough units to hold off an all-in immortal build, or other aggressive build involving immortals... except with marauders. Which is why you see a lot of high level players such as demuslim posting here and mentioning that us Terrans would be building other things other than the marauder as the base of our army...if the other things actually were balanced and viable. But they are not. it is just a difficult situation to be in right now just getting a tvp. the plan for most good T right now is to survive to mid-game with your natural, and then you are good to go from there with marauder based armies (mmm), ghostmech, or airmech. the trouble is surviving to that point in the game vs insanely easy things toss can do like a x2 immortal drop. Reaver drops were insanely viable but also insanely stoppable. Immortal drops though shit on the reaver. Case in point. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
Indeed. I feel like every new page now requires a loud sigh followed by "here we go again." Builds are being tested, replays are being posted, terran have trumped protoss in a number of recent tournaments. I myself have linked to a number of replays where this was the case, just to point out some of the successes people have had. All of that being said, it's up to the individual to add this information to their in-game repetoir of strategy and tactics in the match-up. You cannot come in thinking "well there are just too many things to stop, there must be no counter." There are ways of dealing with many protoss strategies outlined in that thread and in those replays. Learn from them and improve your gameplay rather than continuing to flood the same "i can't do anything" nonsense that hasn't been holding water for close to a week now. If you honestly read the other thread from beginning to end, and watched all the replays, but continue to have this same opinion, then nobody can really help you. If you're unwilling to acknowledge advice based on some kind of pre-existing assumption you have concerning the matchup, you're better of posting a thread on the bnet forums to vent. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
I've lost to them a number of times. But, I don't feel its imbalanced at all. The Immortal is a strong unit, its high enough up the tech tree, and I think it gives a lot of character to Toss. I'd hate to see it nerfed. My favorite build against the Gate>cy>robo opening is 3 rax (1 tech 2 reactors) and I get the +1 attack and Shield upgrade to finish at the same time. When I push out to claim my natural, with so many marines with the shield and +1, and a good few marauders, you can slaughter those Immo's. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 20 2010 13:18 cursor wrote: I'm Terran. I like Immortal's though. I've lost to them a number of times. But, I don't feel its imbalanced at all. The Immortal is a strong unit, its high enough up the tech tree, and I think it gives a lot of character to Toss. I'd hate to see it nerfed. My favorite build against the Gate>cy>robo opening is 3 rax (1 tech 2 reactors) and I get the +1 attack and Shield upgrade to finish at the same time. When I push out to claim my natural, with so many marines with the shield and +1, and a good few marauders, you can slaughter those Immo's. Thank you. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
Build is pretty fuckin' brilliant IMO lol. I been pushing it on my buddies. I'll see if I cant dig up a nice rep and stick it in this response as and edit. You're welcome. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 20 2010 11:40 avilo wrote: The real issue are the vast amount of all-ins, semi-all-ins, and aggressive things that P can do to you as T that you have no good "solution" for. Another part of the problem is the synergy of Protoss units and the Sentry is the worst offender with Forcefield and Guardian Shield. Both are neat ideas, but being able to spam Forcefield seems worse than the Marauders concussive shell. So it might be a better idea to EMP the Sentries (usually bunched up) instead of an Immortal, so the opponent doesnt get to split your Marines / Marauders in half and Guardian Shield is used less. With a sufficient number of Marines the Immortals should not pose suche a great problem then. | ||
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