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On April 12 2010 21:42 Klive5ive wrote:
I play all 3 races and I have to say I don't think Terran has EVER been even against Protoss.
Obviously Terran had that ridiculous proxy barracks rush that was an instant-win, or the super fast reapers and more recently very early pressure with mass marauders and ghosts in close positions.
And Terran will continue to be powerful early game due to the Mule advantage.
However on distant positions or in a long game I just don't believe Terran is even with Protoss.
Collsosus/immortal/Zealot/Sentry/stalker create this ball of destruction that an even supply Terran army just has no absoultely no chance against, it's not even close. The sentries tear the Terran army in half, the collosus/templar aoe the crap out of everything and the Zealots clean up.
+1
collossus + immortal + zealot + stalker + sentry + high templar
combo owns
valkrie + medivac + marine + ghost + marauder
combo all the time
marines and marauders are tear 1 units. we use them in end game to deal with a tier 3 protoss army. marine and marauder damages are not even comparable with collossus, immortal or high templar.
i feel like i am playing zerg and massing zerglings (marines). casting 'plague' (emp).
it is also ridiculous that we use walkries to deal with a specific protoss unit.
we need mech !
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every tvp has become stalker/immortal off of two-three gates, if you expo you almost auto-lose to a 3gate/robo push, then they can expo freely while doing damage.
god forbid they know how to build a warp prism, now they can harrass you with immortals in your base, and outside.
and maps with gold minerals, you are dead.
basically, everything you can do as Terran that is viable is countered by the act of them building immortals.
the effort cost ratio or however you want to call it is horrible. takes almost zero effort to use immortals, takes godlike skill to deal with them.
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The more Ghosts you make, the harder it is to Feedback them all before you get an EMP in the face as your armies approach one another. I lost two such matchups described above the other day because I just couldn't catch all 5 of the buggers as our armies approached, and yes that was with an Observer over them. We were doing a little dance in front of one another for a little bit, then he sent all 5 Ghosts out at once. Just didn't have the time to catch them all. One EMP, particularly on the HTs, is all it takes to weaken the Protoss army enough to utterly steamroll over it.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
On April 14 2010 18:01 avilo wrote:
the effort cost ratio or however you want to call it is horrible. takes almost zero effort to use immortals, takes godlike skill to deal with them.
actually YES
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On April 14 2010 17:22 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 17:18 Skyze wrote:
I feel like I am playing a totally different game than you guys.. and im only 1600 Platinum on US server. but geez.. Terran DOMINATES me 9 times out of 10.
I lost to three guys today who went banshee harass into mass banshee/marauder/ghost.. and it wasnt even a challenge. I had at least 8 immortal/mass stalker/sentry and speedlots, and they would all die in seconds. If I did happen to kill the marauder army (which was only one game out of 3), then the cloakd banshees with 2 vikings/raven to kill obs in seconds, just owned everything I had. 5 banshees can own everything a protoss has except phoenix's, and if you have to get a starport/phoenix's that significantly reduces your time to produce immortals/units to counter the incredibly lame marauders.
Seriously.. How are you guys losing to the most basic Protoss "push"? Marauders/ghost + anything else mixed in totally dominates it.
My take on the balance is the game is pretty damn close, but marauders need a stat reduction, at least HP nerf or damage nerf. they are fucking crazy! Watch the replays I posted or post some of your own cause we probably are playing a different game. edit: Mez if you read this I'd like to try some more builds I'm thinking of against you if you're down for it later. sleep time now though
I watched your replays man. I think you could of won at least 3 of those games, just micro. Like the one where you sent marauders to his base when he got the prism.. You WALKED into his probes, he didnt surround you, and your army should of been able to take his army easily if you didnt make that mistake. The fast reaper game, you shoulda got at least 3-4 probes but you attacked the PYLON?? wow. No wonder. The Banshee game where you fast expo'd to the island, You held his 3gate+immortals off with a super fast expo and 1 starport banshee with no marauders.. Just imagine what would of happened if you got marauders instead of marines, or 2starport banshees? He would of been tapping out in seconds.
And last but not least, the thing that bugs me the most, the game where hes on 12 and your on 3, he does prism 2immortal harassing.. You try to fend it off with marine/tank again, the EXACT units Immortals are made to counter. As soon as you have 3 marauders there, he flys away because he knows 3 marauder > 2 immortals.. Yet you chose marines/tanks the whole earlygame therefor losing at least 1000 minerals in being outmicroed/bad unit combos. You said its worse than reavers, well the equivilant of going marine/tank vs immortal drop is like going mass zerglings vs reaver drop and expecting to win, when 3 hydras can take it out.
Im starting to think this is merely a testament to Mezmerize being such a better player than the terrans hes playing in these replays (from the OP and Mente), that is why he is winning with ease. It would be the same as if I went against Demuslim in 5 PvT's, I would get owned everygame with ease.. Does that mean Terran is way better than toss?? No. Its just the players playing have a large skill gap.
Someone hook up Mezmerize vs Demuslim or any top terran like LZ on US server, and I doubt the results will be similar.
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3 marauders > 2 immortals? even with stimpack i dont think so..
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On April 14 2010 19:02 yanot wrote:
3 marauders > 2 immortals? even with stimpack i dont think so..
look at his previous post. lots great info there. immortals counter marines, storm should be the solution for evrything and toss is a poor race overall.
yeah..
overall the total lack of teching required for toss vs the SHITLOAD of tech T requires is a huge part of the problem.
before you can even think about fighting a even battle you already sopent like 600++ gas(and more minerals) on upgrades and tech. while the P just needs 50 + 100 gas to pump his super allround army that beats evrything on ground at that stage.
robo bay 200 gas, sentry +2 armor shield 150/150 research and increase the buildtime of immortals abit . its not like zeal/stalker/sentry is vulnerable against anything early on.
i still think the immortal is a stupid unit cause it counters 70% of ground units with the other 30% covered by the same tech building (collussus).but these changes would atleast force them to tech like evryone else instead of going warpgate+robo and then just pump away for the next 10 minutes.
on strats i really have not much success tvp on mid plat level.
seems like i can stand toe to toe with top 10 plat in tvt and tvz but tvp i always lose if the enemy doesnt do huge mistakes (aka rightclick moving past my army , beeing ultra defense,trying to sneak expos across the map instead of taking his nat). only on LT,sometimes steppes and kulas i can sometimes go for the marine heavy FE with PF and proceed to expo agressive with the fortresses. yeah having very few mules sucks but not having a expo sucks more. and 2base play is much much more enjoyable vs cause without 4 gas youll never ever ever have enough gas for anything.
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Immortals counter 70% of ground units and other 30% are countered by the same tech?? umm.. HELLO?? Marauder counters ULTRALISKS (as shown by Demuslim) and then thors with their insane anti air, You basically just go Marauder/thor and can beat everything in the game.
Yes, 3 marauders will own 2 immortals in a dropship in the terran base, because if they dont kill them (which they will be very close, one immortal might have like 20 hp left) in the terrans base, reinforcements arrive fast. If it was open field, maybe immortals would do ok.. but considering the cost of immortals, the tech (not first building like marauders) and price, I would EXPECT 2 immortals to come out ahead 1v1.. In even numbers according to cost of minerals/gas, I am betting marauders would annihilate immortals. For immortals to win, you NEED a meat shield infront of them, so until zeal speed is upgraded, marauders own them. The reason you guys keep losing to immortals is you are going tanks.. which is the unit immortals are made to COUNTER. I dont understand how much more clear I can be. Like I said above, its like complaining reavers are too good vs zerglings.
I dont see any top terrans having problems vs protoss, other than Demuslim's complaining, yet he still puts up results vs top protoss's like its nothing.. So you guys must be doing something wrong.
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Btw just to prove my point further.. The first top results I clicked on, was the mTw vs Mouz matchup.. Guess what the results were there..
Naruto 2:0 Mana
Strelok 2:0 Kara
Im sure if I looked at more tourney/league results, they will all be similar. Protoss wins some, Terran wins some. Not 100% protoss winning.
so um. If protoss is so imbalanced, wouldnt top players be winning every game vs terran? You cant say a race is imbalanced when they are still competing at a high level and winning games. Its like saying Protoss was imbalanced during the Bisu era, well how has Protoss done since then? Outside of Bisu and Stork, pretty god damn awful.
Just need to analyze the matchup, learn from your mistakes and make a strat that beats it. Dont go crying imbalance about a unit because you dont know how to counter a simple strategy.
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On April 14 2010 19:47 Skyze wrote:
Immortals counter 70% of ground units and other 30% are countered by the same tech?? umm.. HELLO?? Marauder counters ULTRALISKS (as shown by Demuslim) and then thors with their insane anti air, You basically just go Marauder/thor and can beat everything in the game.
Yes, 3 marauders will own 2 immortals in a dropship in the terran base, because if they dont kill them (which they will be very close, one immortal might have like 20 hp left) in the terrans base, reinforcements arrive fast. If it was open field, maybe immortals would do ok.. but considering the cost of immortals, the tech (not first building like marauders) and price, I would EXPECT 2 immortals to come out ahead 1v1.. In even numbers according to cost of minerals/gas, I am betting marauders would annihilate immortals. For immortals to win, you NEED a meat shield infront of them, so until zeal speed is upgraded, marauders own them. The reason you guys keep losing to immortals is you are going tanks.. which is the unit immortals are made to COUNTER. I dont understand how much more clear I can be. Like I said above, its like complaining reavers are too good vs zerglings.
I dont see any top terrans having problems vs protoss, other than Demuslim's complaining, yet he still puts up results vs top protoss's like its nothing.. So you guys must be doing something wrong.
dude really. stop posting. and esp double posting.
what is your point at saying marauders counter ultras? ofc they do. high hp 22+ dmg/shot units. also ultras suck.
and if you think thor/marauder beats evrything in the game then just give your betakey(you have one right?) to someone who actually will play the game instead of making up weird stuff to justify his nonexistant point in forums.
and 2 immortals RAPERAPERAPE 3 irauders. esp when in a dropship. they drop, kill 1 marauder while recieving 30-40 dmg shield dmg . kill the other 2 marauders, let shield reg and kill 3 marauders again. but maybe you live in a funny parrallel world where marauders shoot air and do 50dmg/shot thru shields?
your total ignorance and total lack of any knowledge while beeing so damn cocky is disturbing.
and btw go away with your tourney results. last zotac was PvP final. does it prove anything? no. except that your 2nd post is worthless ofc.
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I've been losing basically all my games in the TvP matchup in >1250 Plat. The only way I can beat a toss is cheese. Sometimes I get lucky and can do a lot of damage with reapers but that is usually never the case not to mention I use a 9 Rax build to do that. The only other luck I have is taking an extremely fast expo. 1 Supply Depo -> CC -> refinary then planetary fortress an expo, but even then its extremely hard to get enough marines up in time to beat immortals.
I don't have the greatest proof to say this matchup is imba it might be to some degree, but I can honestly say the amount of skill it takes in a TvP matchup is severely disproportionate between the races. I just find the matchup to be hard to deal with.
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i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really.
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On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really.
when you rush for emp you will have 1 emp with like 4 marauders and4 marines without ANY upgrades when they come with 1-2 immortals + 2-4 zeals+ 2 stalkers and 2 sentries.even if you do a perfect emp they just expo, wait for shields to reg and attack again.
T just doesnt have the gas and time to get what they need (their 3 infantry upgrades,emp,support units+tech ) because P just needs 150 gas for his tech and ZERO upgrades and can straight pump away. not to mention that marines get countered by sentries and rauders by immortals. so your whole unit combo is worthless till you teched up and get medivac/tank/ghost support.
mind this thread is mostly about early game. fully teched T is fine vs P. stuff is counterable and it comes down to micro,positioning,comp and scouting. but early game the P can do his standart build, aclick and the T even if he does a perfect defense will still be behind.
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On April 14 2010 20:08 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 19:47 Skyze wrote:
Immortals counter 70% of ground units and other 30% are countered by the same tech?? umm.. HELLO?? Marauder counters ULTRALISKS (as shown by Demuslim) and then thors with their insane anti air, You basically just go Marauder/thor and can beat everything in the game.
Yes, 3 marauders will own 2 immortals in a dropship in the terran base, because if they dont kill them (which they will be very close, one immortal might have like 20 hp left) in the terrans base, reinforcements arrive fast. If it was open field, maybe immortals would do ok.. but considering the cost of immortals, the tech (not first building like marauders) and price, I would EXPECT 2 immortals to come out ahead 1v1.. In even numbers according to cost of minerals/gas, I am betting marauders would annihilate immortals. For immortals to win, you NEED a meat shield infront of them, so until zeal speed is upgraded, marauders own them. The reason you guys keep losing to immortals is you are going tanks.. which is the unit immortals are made to COUNTER. I dont understand how much more clear I can be. Like I said above, its like complaining reavers are too good vs zerglings.
I dont see any top terrans having problems vs protoss, other than Demuslim's complaining, yet he still puts up results vs top protoss's like its nothing.. So you guys must be doing something wrong. dude really. stop posting. and esp double posting. what is your point at saying marauders counter ultras? ofc they do. high hp 22+ dmg/shot units. also ultras suck. and if you think thor/marauder beats evrything in the game then just give your betakey(you have one right?) to someone who actually will play the game instead of making up weird stuff to justify his nonexistant point in forums. and 2 immortals RAPERAPERAPE 3 irauders. esp when in a dropship. they drop, kill 1 marauder while recieving 30-40 dmg shield dmg . kill the other 2 marauders, let shield reg and kill 3 marauders again. but maybe you live in a funny parrallel world where marauders shoot air and do 50dmg/shot thru shields? your total ignorance and total lack of any knowledge while beeing so damn cocky is disturbing. and btw go away with your tourney results. last zotac was PvP final. does it prove anything? no. except that your 2nd post is worthless ofc.
Nice to know your only counter arguments are personal attacks. I was talking SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE POSTERS REPLAYS, his 3 marauders came and the protoss backed away, knowing his immortals would take major damage. Case and point. If his immortals are so damn godly, why didnt he just stay there and do what you said? Cause the protoss isnt stupid and a theorycrafter who thinks immortals kill everything in the game. In a real game situation, 2 immortals in a dropship cant deal with 3 marauders + more coming. Once you add EMP, its not even close.
If you want to be a douche and talk about lack of knowledge, whats your name on bnet/rating? How Credible are you to be talking such shit? You better have a high point total, or at least 1600 like mine (which is low as hell) to be bashing my opinion. I've played many top terrans on the US server like Kawaii, XDs'kiwi, Durr, etc and none of them cry and whine about immortal imbalance as much as the 2-3 guys in this thread. So like I said, work on your game, watch replays and realize you are losing because of things OTHER than "immortal imbalance", like the protoss players just being better than you. Simple as that.
And as I mentioned, Tourney results dont mean anything UNLESS they are 100% in Protoss favor, every game. That is when you look at the matchup and go HMM.. BUT recently, Terrans have been 2:0'ing protoss's, so uhh clearly the matchup must be FINE. Overall tourney results rewards the BEST PLAYERS in ALL MATCHUPS, thats why you see a PvP, Im assuming who you are talking about is White-Ra, who is clearly a deserving winning player and hardly anyone at this time is as dominant as him (even in BW), but that is because of HIM, not because of immortals/him playing Protoss.. THAT is why there is a Protoss in the finals, not because they are "imbalanced".
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Russian Federation85 Posts
On April 14 2010 20:20 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really. when you rush for emp you will have 1 emp with like 4 marauders and4 marines without ANY upgrades when they come with 1-2 immortals + 2-4 zeals+ 2 stalkers and 2 sentries.even if you do a perfect emp they just expo, wait for shields to reg and attack again. T just doesnt have the gas and time to get what they need (their 3 infantry upgrades,emp,support units+tech ) because P just needs 150 gas for his tech and ZERO upgrades and can straight pump away. not to mention that marines get countered by sentries and rauders by immortals. so your whole unit combo is worthless till you teched up and get medivac/tank/ghost support. mind this thread is mostly about early game. fully teched T is fine vs P. stuff is counterable and it comes down to micro,positioning,comp and scouting. but early game the P can do his standart build, aclick and the T even if he does a perfect defense will still be behind.
T:
Barracks 150/0
tech lab 50/25
Ghost Academy 150/50
Ghost 150/150
4x Marauder 4x (100/25)
4x Marines 4x (50/0)
Emp upgrade ? (sorry didn't find it anywhere)
P:
Gateway 150/0
2-4x Zealots 2-4x (100/0)
2x Sentries 2x (50/100)
Core 150/0
2x Stalkers 2x (125/50)
Robobay 200/100
1-2 Immortals 1-2x (250/100)
T
M: 150+50+150+150+400+200 = 1100
G: 25+50+150+100 = 325
P
M: 150 + 200-400 + 100 + 150 + 250+ 200 + 250-500 = 1300-1750
G: 200 + 100 + 100 + 100-200 = 500-600
Sorry i fail to see that T has to go heavier gas as P, either i fail to see that your example the P army is cheaper or i fail to see where T will be behind.
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only problem, if you say its a problem, with immortals is they destroy buildings too fast. if i go FE with tanks, protoss drops 2 immortals and hunt down my supply depots. its hard to counter in early game. rest is just fine.
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On April 14 2010 20:47 Dx Fx wrote:
T:
Barracks 150/0
tech lab 50/25
Ghost Academy 150/50
Ghost 150/150
4x Marauder 4x (100/25)
4x Marines 4x (50/0)
Emp upgrade ? (sorry didn't find it anywhere)
P:
Gateway 150/0
2-4x Zealots 2-4x (100/0)
2x Sentries 2x (50/100)
Core 150/0
2x Stalkers 2x (125/50)
Robobay 200/100
1-2 Immortals 1-2x (250/100)
T
M: 150+50+150+150+400+200 = 1100
G: 25+50+150+100 = 325
P
M: 150 + 200-400 + 100 + 150 + 250+ 200 + 250-500 = 1300-1750
G: 200 + 100 + 100 + 100-200 = 500-600
Sorry i fail to see that T has to go heavier gas as P, either i fail to see that your example the P army is cheaper or i fail to see where T will be behind.
you want to add here another rax + lab ( 200/25 ) and add stimpack 150/150 and concussive shells 100/100 AND the 140+80 game seconds to search both ( these matter more )
without stimpack and shells you won't be able to go toe - to - toe with the protoss, because you can't kill his stalkers ( they run faster so can be microed away and can give the killing blow to terran units ), and immortal still have 200 hp without shield so you can micro it with ease. Not to mention force field, guardian shield, and the fact that the protoss can kill 3 - 4 of your units easily then back & wait shield regeneration.
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On April 14 2010 20:47 Dx Fx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 20:20 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really. when you rush for emp you will have 1 emp with like 4 marauders and4 marines without ANY upgrades when they come with 1-2 immortals + 2-4 zeals+ 2 stalkers and 2 sentries.even if you do a perfect emp they just expo, wait for shields to reg and attack again. T just doesnt have the gas and time to get what they need (their 3 infantry upgrades,emp,support units+tech ) because P just needs 150 gas for his tech and ZERO upgrades and can straight pump away. not to mention that marines get countered by sentries and rauders by immortals. so your whole unit combo is worthless till you teched up and get medivac/tank/ghost support. mind this thread is mostly about early game. fully teched T is fine vs P. stuff is counterable and it comes down to micro,positioning,comp and scouting. but early game the P can do his standart build, aclick and the T even if he does a perfect defense will still be behind. T: Barracks 150/0 tech lab 50/25 Ghost Academy 150/50 Ghost 150/150 4x Marauder 4x (100/25) 4x Marines 4x (50/0) Emp upgrade ? (sorry didn't find it anywhere) P: Gateway 150/0 2-4x Zealots 2-4x (100/0) 2x Sentries 2x (50/100) Core 150/0 2x Stalkers 2x (125/50) Robobay 200/100 1-2 Immortals 1-2x (250/100) T M: 150+50+150+150+400+200 = 1100 G: 25+50+150+100 = 325 P M: 150 + 200-400 + 100 + 150 + 250+ 200 + 250-500 = 1300-1750 G: 200 + 100 + 100 + 100-200 = 500-600 Sorry i fail to see that T has to go heavier gas as P, either i fail to see that your example the P army is cheaper or i fail to see where T will be behind.
That seems to be a naive miscalculation.
4 Marauder + 4 Marines + 1 Ghost = 16 Supply.
2 Sentries + 2 Stalkers + 2 Immortals + 4 Zealots = 24 Supply.
Of course an army with 24 Supply will cost more gas than an army with 16 supply. Assuming that everything is made out of one Rax or Gateway is even more nonsense. To keep up with the unit production of a P you need ~ 3 Rax. I don't need to remind you that you pay Gas for every Addon while Gatways require only minerals, right? But that's not the problem.
BeMannerDuPenner just tried to explain that Protss units are ready as soon as they pop out. No further upgrades required. T on the other hand sits in his base until combat shield (150 gas), stim (150 gas), conc shell (100 gas) and enough Ghosts (each 150 gas) and Medivacs (each 100 gas) are done (I exaggerate of course but you get the point). Really the only Unit that does NOT require gas is the marine which is delayed due to reactor building time.
Oh and by the way: looking for an EMP upgrade ... have you even played Starcraft II once?
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On April 14 2010 20:20 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 20:13 mOnion wrote:
i'm still not understanding why T doesnt just always go EMP
not getting EMP against an immortal toss is like not getting storm PvZ in sc1. you have to. you just do.
if they go immortals, skew towards marines and get EMP. if they transition to storm, go marauder heavy with medivacs. this is simple really. mind this thread is mostly about early game. fully teched T is fine vs P. stuff is counterable and it comes down to micro,positioning,comp and scouting. but early game the P can do his standart build, aclick and the T even if he does a perfect defense will still be behind.
Agreed. When it comes to a map like scrap station or desert oasis, PvT isn't too bad and comes down to skill etc. But on something like Steppes of War... well have fun dealing with protoss abuse and uncontested macro.
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Nerf marauders or Immortals stay the way they are. Simple as that.
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EPT
