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I'm just going to prove how mind boggling this matchup has become. I just looked through all the suggestions and I think we've covered everything besides fast BC or something at that level of stupid.
To recap, strategies that have been suggested are:
-Fast thor
-Mass marauder/ghost
-Mass banshee/bio
-Banshee/viking
-Marine/Tank (since that's what I used to start with)
-Drops
-Marauder/Viking
-I think nukes was mentioned at some point?
I think those were all suggested here (possible I might be inserting something I heard from some other source). It has to be clear that there is no one safe, standard play for terran right now. Every single one of these strategies has weaknesses. Ones that do well vs immortal rushes get screwed by simple changes by protoss (colossus or drops). Mass air is the best strategy suggestion I've seen so far but I still feel like it's a horribly uphill battle all game.
I think it's clear that terran right now is stuck in no-man's-land. We can go one strategy but no matter what we commit to, protoss has a way to straight counter it.
Changing the immortal timing/tech/strength would open up a plethora of viable terran options. I don't believe 3 rax marauder pressure would be difficult to deal with since protosses were finding ways to deal with those builds by going 3-4 warpgate mass gateway and having reasonable success. I'm not concerned about mass air because quite frankly immortals don't really play into that style at all except for pressuring early. It will probably be a much safer and more viable opening without immortals blowing through your wall so early.
Something I've noticed: When terran actually manages to get mech going without being massively behind in macro immortals are not too strong. They actually fit quite well into the PvTmech metagame IF the game is already in midgame.
Therefore I think the proper change is just to the timing/tech of the immortal. Perhaps making hardened shields an upgrade on the support bay? Perhaps moving the immortal to its own tech building? Increasing build time in any case is a good idea since they're already building faster than tanks before chrono, and they're more expensive and more food, which is very contradictory.
How will this affect other matchups? I don't think PvP will be broken by not having immortals as early. In fact it might promote mass stalker strategies more which standardizes a very BO-luck based matchup, and ought to bring it to a more interesting metagame.
PvZ will be a little easier for zerg earlygame, though mass gateway builds are still insanely difficult to fight. I don't think it will severely impact protoss's ability to adjust to 1 hatch roach, since stalker/sentry does fine, especially with a wall.
I think from this analysis it's clear we'll see something in patch 9 about immortals.
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How the heck can you ascertain there's something wrong just by the sheer variety of strategies proposed? There's the factor of people throwing in those strats, because you're doing your damndest to shoot everything down and people are just humouring you. "Nut uh. That won't work because blah blah blah", "Well, okay, how about this", "No, that won't work because blah blah blah".
Especially considering you went tanks THREE games in a row, and lost to the same strat THREE games in a row. Have you even tried anything remotely different since then? Can we see replays of those?
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I've just been trying the stalker immortal rush lately in a few games, to get a feel for how strong it is. And my conclusion is that while you may not be able to kill a terran outright with a stalker immortal rush, every single game I was able to contain them and expand (sometimes expand twice). And anytime they "walled" I got to kill two supply depots for free, otherwise they'd be forced to come out and fight me in the open... which they can never do until they get their upgrades.
To me the stalker/immortal rush seems like it is simply too easy to pull off. It requires very little micro and has incredibly powerful results vs terran. If a nerf to the immortal would make the marauder too powerful in PvT, then I suggest nerfing both.
I'm not a protoss player, but I am fully capable of using this simplistic build to platinum potential. I'd like it if any terran players would like to challenge me so I can show just how easy and incredibly effective this is even in the hands of someone relatively new to protoss.
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to everyone saying "all that was changed CG is an upgrade" and all variations of this, its true ! but its not just the game that develops, remember this is a new game (a beta even) and I bealive protosses in general have become much more adept, just an obbservation. ofcourse terrans are also learning also, its not like that one tiny nerf drastically changed the entire MU, but it shined a light on the imbalance when it stopped T from doing the early pressure into early expansion.
P has > T for a long while, but T had the somewhat cheesy maraude pressure (it was queite OP.) that allowed some success.
so to all the copperleaguers saying "stuf and research slow, and its exactly the same as pre-patch8" you are just wrong ! flat out.
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On April 14 2010 08:08 Floophead_III wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm just going to prove how mind boggling this matchup has become. I just looked through all the suggestions and I think we've covered everything besides fast BC or something at that level of stupid.
To recap, strategies that have been suggested are:
-Fast thor
-Mass marauder/ghost
-Mass banshee/bio
-Banshee/viking
-Marine/Tank (since that's what I used to start with)
-Drops
-Marauder/Viking
-I think nukes was mentioned at some point?
I think those were all suggested here (possible I might be inserting something I heard from some other source). It has to be clear that there is no one safe, standard play for terran right now. Every single one of these strategies has weaknesses. Ones that do well vs immortal rushes get screwed by simple changes by protoss (colossus or drops). Mass air is the best strategy suggestion I've seen so far but I still feel like it's a horribly uphill battle all game.
I think it's clear that terran right now is stuck in no-man's-land. We can go one strategy but no matter what we commit to, protoss has a way to straight counter it.
Changing the immortal timing/tech/strength would open up a plethora of viable terran options. I don't believe 3 rax marauder pressure would be difficult to deal with since protosses were finding ways to deal with those builds by going 3-4 warpgate mass gateway and having reasonable success. I'm not concerned about mass air because quite frankly immortals don't really play into that style at all except for pressuring early. It will probably be a much safer and more viable opening without immortals blowing through your wall so early.
Something I've noticed: When terran actually manages to get mech going without being massively behind in macro immortals are not too strong. They actually fit quite well into the PvTmech metagame IF the game is already in midgame.
Therefore I think the proper change is just to the timing/tech of the immortal. Perhaps making hardened shields an upgrade on the support bay? Perhaps moving the immortal to its own tech building? Increasing build time in any case is a good idea since they're already building faster than tanks before chrono, and they're more expensive and more food, which is very contradictory.
How will this affect other matchups? I don't think PvP will be broken by not having immortals as early. In fact it might promote mass stalker strategies more which standardizes a very BO-luck based matchup, and ought to bring it to a more interesting metagame.
PvZ will be a little easier for zerg earlygame, though mass gateway builds are still insanely difficult to fight. I don't think it will severely impact protoss's ability to adjust to 1 hatch roach, since stalker/sentry does fine, especially with a wall.
I think from this analysis it's clear we'll see something in patch 9 about immortals.
I'm kind of confused when you say all Terran strategies have weaknesses. So does every Zerg and Protoss strategy right? That's why play relies so heavily on scouting to choose the appropriate strategy for the situation at hand.
When you say three rax marauder pressure doesn't work because protoss are going 4 warpgate mass gateway to counter.. well then it doesn't sound like immortals are the problem there. Mohdoo and several others have pointed out valid counters to immortals in this thread, whether it be immortal drop harass or immortal pushes.
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Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play.
Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding)
Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar
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Oh this matchup is complete nonsense at the moment, and in my opinion always has been. Literally every build you can think of is cost for cost, less efficient than protoss' counter to it. Protoss can hold you off indefinitely with forcefield and get the perfect army composition to counter you. I'm consistently playing #1~5 ranked platinum players, and on certain map you simply have very, very little hope. I win plenty of games vs highly ranked protoss players, but I attribute those wins solely to a poor understanding of the race they're playing. If they had a better grasp, they should never lose to terran.
It's not just the immortal, although it is a factor in making the matchup the joke that it is, but the way protoss has been designed. Protoss has a superior ground army. $ for $ their army is simply better than yours and easier to use. Moreover, they can warp in whatever units they need, wherever they're needed, in four seconds.
Blink is too good, immortals are too good, feedback is too good, sentries are too good, and warp gates are simply hideously broken. Maps like blistering sands and scrap station only aggravate the problem. It's kind of lulz when you have sieged tanks behind your boulder guarding your second base entry on blistering, and immortals can hit the rock from a position you can't even see. And even if you could, they'd take very little damage before destroying the boulder. Once that boulder goes, you can not win anymore. On scrap station, that giant idiotic ramp makes an immortal push when doing anything other than turtling with marauders a guaranteed gg.
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I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders.
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On April 14 2010 08:42 Ganondorf wrote:
I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders.
That's always the argument used to defend a nerf, and it always fails. If its a problem, and it affects too many games, it will get nerfed. Not nerfing it because it MIGHT break something else isn't enough to leave it as it is.
Its the EXACT same argument used against nerfing the Marauder after all "But, without the early snare, it'll be IMPOSSIBLE to kill Roaches! We'll be broken!".
But, I just don't see the reason in claiming "Victory! Its going to get nerfed! Yay for Terrans!" by Floophead, when he hasn't shown anything but going for early Siege tanks vs Immortals is a bad idea. I'd like to look at the Mez vs Mente games first, but I'm at work 
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Honestly I don't see how anyone can say TvP is fine when you look at the other two matchups.... TvZ: You've got a lot of use out of marines, marauders, and dropships. I've seen the thor rush has gotten kind of popular. Ravens are amazing in this match up. Hellion/thor/marauder is a seemingly new strategy on the block that might be effective. Vikings are pretty good if it gets late game and he starts making bro lords. TvT, we see tanks, marines, marauders, vikings, banshees, bcs late game, tons of macro games since it's very hard to push a terran early. Sometimes thors make siege tank line breakers, too.
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders.
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banshee harass gets me every time 
suicide vikings into obs and cloakrape the robo bay. what an awesome and complex game.
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On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders.
Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking?
Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321
OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens.
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On April 14 2010 08:08 Floophead_III wrote:
I think it's clear that terran right now is stuck in no-man's-land. We can go one strategy but no matter what we commit to, protoss has a way to straight counter it.
To think, a strategy game that has counters. Would you prefer Terran have a single end all strategy that is easy to understand and Protoss can not deal with?
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On April 14 2010 09:24 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:08 Floophead_III wrote:
I think it's clear that terran right now is stuck in no-man's-land. We can go one strategy but no matter what we commit to, protoss has a way to straight counter it.
To think, a strategy game that has counters. Would you prefer Terran have a single end all strategy that is easy to understand and Protoss can not deal with?
He just misses patch 7. Poor fellah. =*(
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On April 14 2010 09:24 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders. Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking? Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens.
When both players use the same strategy nearly every game yes that is game breaking and boring. This is real time strategy bro, where you actually react to the units your opponent is making.
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On April 14 2010 08:42 Ganondorf wrote:
I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders.
You just hit the nail on the head. I think most people agree that the immortal is designed to counter mech units. So how is it possible that the immortal is also good against marauders? While Colossi and HTs have some serious drawbacks (being hit by air to air, require higher tech etc.) there just is now drawback or mechanic you can abuse to shut down immortals. And we're talking about a unit that directly counters Thors, Tanks and Hellions and is still more than useful against Marauders (and even Marines) how you yourself pointed out. And if you think about it some more you'll come to the conclusion that there is just nothing left for Terrans that is not demolished by immortals (not including air for an obvious reason).
So you're argument that the immortal should NOT be redesigned because protoss would not be able to deal with marauders is plain nonsense. Immortals should not be an untouchable answer to freakin every ground unit a Terran has to offer.
On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar
Watched all of them. Interesting series. I like how you KNOW what's coming and still can't even survive long enough for mid game with like 5 different strategies while mezmerize is either going for drop or 4 gate >.>. That's exactly how I feel when I'm playing vs Protoss. Even if you manage to survive you'll be at an disadvantage. Of course at least 5 different people will now jump on you and point out how bad you are and what mistakes you did here and there while not being able to provide a single replay that proves you wrong in a thread that exists for 15 pages now Keep it up.
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On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Honestly I don't see how anyone can say TvP is fine when you look at the other two matchups.... TvZ: You've got a lot of use out of marines, marauders, and dropships. I've seen the thor rush has gotten kind of popular. Ravens are amazing in this match up. Hellion/thor/marauder is a seemingly new strategy on the block that might be effective. Vikings are pretty good if it gets late game and he starts making bro lords. TvT, we see tanks, marines, marauders, vikings, banshees, bcs late game, tons of macro games since it's very hard to push a terran early. Sometimes thors make siege tank line breakers, too.
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders.
Now you know what the adrenaline rush of PvZ is like. The Zerg basically dictate the flow of the game and you have to pull out all the stops to cover every possible angle, while trying to come up with a decisive hammer-blow that will finish them off, while they just expand their way across the map, ready to react to whatever unit composition you have and run you into the dirt when you make a wrong move.
Any way you look at it, one race, due to the recent strategies of the time, is going to have an early game advantage. It'll probably flip back and forth between them as people discover new builds. Once Protoss come up with a SOLID way of taking out a Zerg FE with a Spine Crawler wall, its going to flip in the other direction (I doubt it, but you never know). Losing the Marauder snare that early, lost Terran that early game advantage and gave it to the Protoss. Now its on the Terrans to come up with a strat to hold back the Immortal push.
So long as you HAVE an answer to the strat, its basically okay, so long as it doesn't cripple you too much in the early-game, transferring into the mid-late game and skew the matchup too far. Problem with the early Marauder snare was there really wasn't an answer to the strat. It was just gradual casualty after casualty for the Protoss, and no guaranteed means of getting any kills in, because of the snare.
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On April 14 2010 09:26 shinosai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:24 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders. Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking? Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens. When both players use the same strategy nearly every game yes that is game breaking and boring. This is real time strategy bro, where you actually react to the units your opponent is making.
Same units almost every game? Are you familiar with Brood War? Matchups are predictable unit-wise. There are options, but you generally know what someone is going to open with, and thus what the other player is going to have to open aswell.
OH THIS IS A RTS? Yea, thanks for letting me know. All the condescending horse-shit aside, you sound like you're more than willing to throw tantrum instead of post replays. Guess that follows the general theme here. Carry on.
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On April 14 2010 09:30 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:42 Ganondorf wrote:
I don't think nerfing protoss even more is a viable option. From the list of course the bansee/viking is good we already covered that, banshee/bio also because you can easily snipe all sentries during a fight (comes down to good micro). A standard 3 rax can also be good with decent micro - but usually it's not very effective. I mean it's a battle where the terran needs to micro better than the toss to win, a little unbalanced but it doesn't influence high level/pro games. Removing the immortal or moving it further up in tech will make protoss unplayable, not being able to deal with marauders. You just hit the nail on the head. I think most people agree that the immortal is designed to counter mech units. So how is it possible that the immortal is also good against marauders? While Colossi and HTs have some serious drawbacks (being hit by air to air, require higher tech etc.) there just is now drawback or mechanic you can abuse to shut down immortals. And we're talking about a unit that directly counters Thors, Tanks and Hellions and is still more than useful against Marauders (and even Marines) how you yourself pointed out. And if you think about it some more you'll come to the conclusion that there is just nothing left for Terrans that is not demolished by immortals (not including air for an obvious reason). So you're argument that the immortal should NOT be redesigned because protoss would not be able to deal with marauders is plain nonsense. Immortals should not be an untouchable answer to freakin every ground unit a Terran has to offer. Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 08:29 Mente wrote:Mezmerize and myself just played a series of really amusing games and I lost every single one of them to protoss play I have yet to come across in ladder play. Great play by him and I never felt like I had solid footing the whole game. It was almost like shooting darts in the dark trying to hit on a strategy that would work (admittedly I was extremely fervent about fast expanding) Here are the replays: http://www.filefront.com/16115757/menteandmez.rar Watched all of them. Interesting series. I like how you KNOW what's coming and still can't even survive long enough for mid game with like 5 different strategies while mezmerize is either going for drop or 4 gate >.>. That's exactly how I feel when I'm playing vs Protoss. Even if you manage to survive you'll be at an disadvantage. Of course at least 5 different people will now jump on you and point out how bad you are and what mistakes you did here and there while not being able to provide a single replay that proves you wrong in a thread that exists for 15 pages now Keep it up.
I didn't really know what to expect until after the first couple of games I was just transitioning as I would in BW
But please criticism is appreciated all the same :-P
edit: I know how to counter reavers but not reavers that take ten damage from siege tanks >_<
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On April 14 2010 09:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:26 shinosai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2010 09:24 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 09:11 shinosai wrote:
Then TvP: Ghost marauder or go home? Possibly vikings if it gets really late game? Because doing anything mech or air leaves you vulnerable to a SINGLE unit (the stalker immortal rush beats any fast air strat)? That is horrible.
Where I see a lot of variety in TvZ and TvT, all I see in TvP is one viable opening strategy: Ghosts and marauders. Have terran really been spoiled this long? In one match-up you don't dictate the pace of the game from the start with any hair-brain open, and this is game-breaking? Seriously now, it's time to stop hand-waiving and saying "immos attack-moved my 100 supply army and won with only 50 supply!!" Get out there and play some TvP with strats that makes sense (I wouldn't reccomend tanks), and post some relavent replays here. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1321OMG LOOK, a TvP with immortals. Bet you can't guess what happens. When both players use the same strategy nearly every game yes that is game breaking and boring. This is real time strategy bro, where you actually react to the units your opponent is making. Same units almost every game? Are you familiar with Brood War? Matchups are predictable unit-wise. There are options, but you generally know what someone is going to open with, and thus what the other player is going to have to open aswell. OH THIS IS A RTS? Yea, thanks for letting me know. All the condescending horse-shit aside, you sound like you're more than willing to throw tantrum instead of post replays. Guess that follows the general theme here. Carry on.
Replays are never as effective as a straight up challenge. Because you can nitpick replays like little babies all day, but when you have to man up and play the game, things tend to fall apart for bad arguments.
You're the one that started with the condescending assumption that terrans were spoiled, don't get upset when the hostility is thrown right back at you.
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EPT
