EPT[H] TvP - The Immortal Problem. - Page 13
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Mohdoo
United States15677 Posts
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On April 14 2010 02:34 Mohdoo wrote: So do the new forum rules mean this should be closed? Does not fit the requirements. Or was that only for the general SC2 forum? this is a quality thread | ||
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fatduck
United States148 Posts
On April 14 2010 02:26 Floophead_III wrote: Protoss now has no fear of being killed by early marauders now in the sense that if they don't have a larger army they lose. It's still a threat but since you can actually pull back from an engagement you're losing you can have less units and still hold fine. This means you can go very fast robotics and be safe. Immortal pushes force terran to chill back in his base, which is fine, but now terran has 3 options all of which play to a losing game: -Spam marauders/ghost and try to break out with sheer force - loses to immortal drops because you have no anti air at all, so you get stuck in your base even longer than you should, and god forbid he uses sentries to FF your ramp/choke infinitely. You can't outrange those FFs so you're stuck until he lets you out or you get tanks/air. -Go tanks/ghosts/marines/turrets. This is what I've been trying to do because I think it's the most viable composition. The problem is that it takes so long to get this up and running and you're STILL stuck in your main for really long time. Protoss can simply expand and outmacro and you're playing a losing game. -Go banshees/fast drops. More likely than not protoss will blow through your front unless you have something like 4 bunkers there, in which case any good protoss will go straight to drops. If you ever manage to get banshees out, they won't be a surprise, and they won't be able to do anything but sit around defending. Meanwhile protoss can just expand/make stalker/make obs and you'll be outmacro'd. I think it might be possible to make this work, but I want to see a lot of replays before even considering it a viable option. As of now I haven't seen anything to contradict that it is in fact a losing game. Everyone says "go banshees" to the zealot/sentry/immortal ball which I don't really understand - as you say banshees are unlikely to surprise the toss player if he has you pinned in your base. Why not reactor-port and vacs/vikings to support M&M? If you can get to the midgame, stim marauders with vacs are more effective against immortals than you're willing to admit, and the typical sentry/stalker count isn't going to stop vikes from killing colossi (or will cause him to spam sentry/stalker instead of immo which is a win for you I think). Immortals are pretty slow, and if he's greedy with expos you can punish him with medevacs. I'm guessing the response is going to be "well I can't get to the midgame idiot immortals own all toss will have 4 bases etc", but I figured I'd try anyway. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Zoltan
United States656 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 14 2010 02:49 xDaunt wrote: Why do terrans feel like they must surprise the protoss player with the banshees? Just straight up mass them with marines and force the protoss player to delay his AoE tech, lower his immortal count, and get a bunch of a stalkers/phoenixes. My impression has been that marines and banshees stack up very well against an army that is stalker and sentry heavy. Am I wrong? I haven't had much success with using Phoenixes as a counter to mass Banshees. Even if you win the fight, you can't really punish a guy for it immediately afterwards. HTs are generally more successful. Feedback is a huge threat to Banshees (or Psi Storm if they stealth and you have no Observer handy at the time), and you have a decent answer to the Bioball at the same time without having to tech to Collossi. | ||
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febreze
167 Posts
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fatduck
United States148 Posts
On April 14 2010 02:59 Bibdy wrote: I haven't had much success with using Phoenixes as a counter to mass Banshees. Even if you win the fight, you can't really punish a guy for it immediately afterwards. HTs are generally more successful. Feedback is a huge threat to Banshees (or Psi Storm if they stealth and you have no Observer handy at the time), and you have a decent answer to the Bioball at the same time without having to tech to Collossi. One advantage of phoenixes is that they are super fast, so they're better at shutting down banshee harass than templars (until amulet and warp-in storm). They're light armor too so they don't take bonus dmg from vikings. Otherwise the stargate is only marginally useful, though (graviton beam on siege tanks is a neat trick but that's about it), and phoenix doesn't even counter medevac that well (~20 hits to kill), so templars are much more versatile. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On April 12 2010 21:55 dNo_O wrote: qft if going mech doesn't work. don't do it... you wouldn't ever +1 speedlot against a terran in sc1 would you? Chalrenge did a speedlot timing attack in PvT once on Colosseum that won him a game in a pro match. And you're completley missing the point that so much Terran strategy is limited because of a unit, it's absolutely retarded. There's no reason units such as the siege tank should be so severely limited in a matchup. It's not even a "specialty" caster unit, it's a core unit in the Terran arsenal. Not being able to use Siege Tanks/Thors effectively... you're effectively killing factory tech... completely. I have massive problems with the Immortal, more so than Roach/Marauder, and I'm a Zerg player that NEVER goes roach tech vs protoss (I haven't gone roach tech vs toss in a single game since Beta started because I hated their concept). | ||
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sage_francis
France1823 Posts
Firstable its good to say that when u 1fac expand there is basically 3 big threats in early games: - Early immoratls push with few zealots, sentries or stalkers. - 2 immortals drop and harras with maybe some warping in main. - Fast void ray rush who can be really annoying, especially since last patch with Void rays buffed. Two of these big threats involve air units (warp prism and VR). Theres no way to make a starport, so i think its good to make an early Thor. Im not very good in numbers but i think its okay to say that thors are better against immortals than tanks. So, the idea is too make an early thor to hold those 3 early game threats. Then i tried some adjustments to get a build as viable as possible. It looks like that: - I make barrack right after supply instaed of making a scv and then the barrack. - Orbital right after barrack - Factory around 14 pop - 2nd supply - Lab tech on barrack - 2nd gaz - 1 reaper - Lab tech on factory - 1 tank - Supply - Harass probes and scout with reaper. Try to keep him alive, he creates a threat and may delay a bit the protoss push - Siege mode, second tank, supply and armory right when u got 100 gaz (around 27 pop) - 1 marauder + 1 bunker - 1 thor + supply + 2nd marauder to fill bunker At this stage u got 2 siege tanks, 1 bunker with 2 marauders in it and a thor half done. Its important to siege tanks out of range of immortals. Its maybe the only advantage tanks have on immortals, so we got to use it ^^ - Make 2nd CC in ure main (around 40 pop) - 3rd tank and +1 ground attack in armory - 2nd factory When immos push coming u should be able to hold it, using tanks range advantage and targettiing immoratls, using super canon ability of thor on immortals and scv auto repair mode on ure thor. After this crucial point, i like to add factories with reactor to make helions and continuing upgrading ground. U can eventually make a 2nd thor if necessary, but i prefer a lot of tanks. i also make helions upgrade quiet early. In midd game, since ure pumping a lot of helions out of 3 or 4 facto reactor, ure gaz increases, its time to make starport with labtech and making ravens until the end of the game. I really do like ravens and their ground/air turrets abitlity cause its allow u to harrass and have good map vision with helions AND ravens, without doing some risky move with ure heavy tanks army (u just turtle and secure expansions). Its really a big deal cause u can hit several points at the same time with those 2 high mobility units (ravens are slow but they fly !). Well i dont say this build is the utltimate one in TvP, it certainly needs some adjustments, im just trying to add a stone to the TvP building ^^ Well thanks a lot for reading and sorry for my approximative english. | ||
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Iblis
904 Posts
The first days after the patch those terran that 1rax FE lost a lot, yeah and I really hope that you can punish someone going FE before pressuring or showing any army forces to keep the protoss at bay. Before 2 days ago I was winning a lot more than last patch, but now plat terrans seems to have adapted. The immortal/gateway push can be blocked pretty decently by a 2rax marauders-ghosts, I agree that the immortal counter the marauder when they have no upgrade, at the moment the marauder get stimpack and are in decent numbers they can fare against the immortals equally, but the really turning point is when the terran get some ghost to EMP, a protoss immortal ground forces get destroyed by a similar ressource level terran stimpacked marauder if he doesn't forget to EMP the immortals and the max of stalkers/sentry possible. The firerate of stimpacked marauder are really too much too handle and with a 2rax build you'll be able to expand fairly early and be able to compete with the P army with your upgrades, an EMPED immortal is a dead immortal. | ||
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Silent_Tao
Israel87 Posts
Most of the people here mentioning the emp as the magic cure, But i don't think that good spell casting from the terran is equivalent to the A-Move that protoss players need to do with the Zeals-immortals-sentry-stalkers army (with the easy to use guardian shiels) It is possible to win toss, but the real question is if two same level players t and p are winning 50% each. Blizzard got the statistics to anwser this question - but i'm personally lose much more TVP then any other MU, and by reading here i'm convinced i'm not the only one. I hope that @ patch 9 the immortal will be nerfed and make my beloved mech army playable again. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 14 2010 03:57 Iblis wrote: As a protoss this matchup didn't really change since the last patch except the fact that you're not gonna be killed by the first 2 terran marauders but will most likely to have to defend a 1-2reaper harass, if the t does a 10 rax you'll lose 1-3 probes and will be forced to cut off probes, while the terran will rely on MULE and can switch to heavy marauder ground or tech to get some more harass forces(hellion banshee). The first days after the patch those terran that 1rax FE lost a lot, yeah and I really hope that you can punish someone going FE before pressuring or showing any army forces to keep the protoss at bay. Before 2 days ago I was winning a lot more than last patch, but now plat terrans seems to have adapted. The immortal/gateway push can be blocked pretty decently by a 2rax marauders-ghosts, I agree that the immortal counter the marauder when they have no upgrade, at the moment the marauder get stimpack and are in decent numbers they can fare against the immortals equally, but the really turning point is when the terran get some ghost to EMP, a protoss immortal ground forces get destroyed by a similar ressource level terran stimpacked marauder if he doesn't forget to EMP the immortals and the max of stalkers/sentry possible. The firerate of stimpacked marauder are really too much too handle and with a 2rax build you'll be able to expand fairly early and be able to compete with the P army with your upgrades, an EMPED immortal is a dead immortal. Exactly what I've seen aswell. The terran who still play like their first marauder is a license to expand are of-course going to get a wake-up call, but the majority of plat terran seem to have figured out this playstyle just wont' cut it anymore. It's no longer as simple as containment from square one. Does this mean the terran is just screwed? Far from it. As we've continuously mentioned, marauder still make a much more efficient unit than immortals after stim. Concussive shells is far from expensive or hard to reach tech-wise. Thor's 250mm cannon melting an immortal is something that way too many terran are still overlooking or hand-waiving away as "mech that doesn't work." We've seen a few terran claim to have a workable mech build vs. P, a lot of toss who still obviously have to deal with strong standard 2-rax marauder into gost, and a few whiney T who would rather state that "immortal > *" than discuss options. TvP is a very hard MU, for both sides. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On April 14 2010 04:14 Silent_Tao wrote: I hope that @ patch 9 the immortal will be nerfed and make my beloved mech army playable again. Just out of curiosity, depending upon the severity of the nerf, what should protoss players use to counter mech? | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
As we've continuously mentioned, marauder still make a much more efficient unit than immortals after stim. Concussive shells is far from expensive or hard to reach tech-wise. Thor's 250mm cannon melting an immortal is something that way too many terran are still overlooking or hand-waiving away as "mech that doesn't work." 250 mm is totaly useless vs immortal kind of things, if you just emp them and use standard fire mode it works way better. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
this isnt about scans, this isnt about what strat to go vs toss, this isnt about if we should Fast expand or not. this is about top terran players playing top protoss players, and the possible imbalances that we are seeing. please stop taking this out of context and throwing in random ass variables that are irrelevant. this isnt even about the patch, i dont give a crap about having to upgrade concussive, its not a big deal. its about how the protoss vs terran strategy has become played enough to know how to exploit terrans weaknesses. #1) forcefield abuse. - containment/control of fights, making fighting in non open areas suicidal. #2)warp prism immortal drops - containment these guys RIP apart suppy depots like no other. you CANNOT leave your base until you have some kind of defense, none of which are affordable on 1 base. #3)warp gates - once you have been contained, its like they have 4 gateways sitting outside @ your nat or just outside your nat. making their push the strongest in the game. also they can just instantly warp in more sentries you keep FF @ ur ramp containing you. or waiting for you to come down and split your army in half. #4)being forced to spend a great deal into upgrades while protoss spends only 50/50 on warp gate research. this drastically reduces terrans unit count, sure EMP is great, so is stim, but when u have 5 less marauders + change it can work against you. 1 emp vs a good toss player wont hit much. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote: people seriously, STOP posting shit that has been posted 100 times and then been NEGATED. you ARENT reading at all. this is becoming ridiculous, stop taking everything off topic. this isnt about scans, this isnt about what strat to go vs toss, this isnt about if we should Fast expand or not. this is about top terran players playing top protoss players, and the possible imbalances that we are seeing. please stop taking this out of context and throwing in random ass variables that are irrelevant. this isnt even about the patch, i dont give a crap about having to upgrade concussive, its not a big deal. its about how the protoss vs terran strategy has become played enough to know how to exploit terrans weaknesses. #1) forcefield abuse. - containment/control of fights, making fighting in non open areas suicidal. block the ramp. check #2)warp prism immortal drops - containment these guys RIP apart suppy depots like no other. you CANNOT leave your base until you have some kind of defense, none of which are affordable on 1 base. build early starport. check. #3)warp gates - once you have been contained, its like they have 4 gateways sitting outside @ your nat or just outside your nat. making their push the strongest in the game. also they can just instantly warp in more sentries you keep FF @ ur ramp containing you. or waiting for you to come down and split your army in half. stay on 1 base until like 60+ supply. check. #4)being forced to spend a great deal into upgrades while protoss spends only 50/50 on warp gate research. this drastically reduces terrans unit count, sure EMP is great, so is stim, but when u have 5 less marauders + change it can work against you. 1 emp vs a good toss player wont hit much. forget ghosts and focus on marauders/hellions. check. i'm trying another rough build TvP. it involves banshees/hellion into marauder/hellion/medivac. ramp block play 15 orbital standard lol build some marines (1-2) build fact build some marines build 2nd gas build fact techlab build port build 1-2 banshees and harass (force defense) eg. stalkers / non-pure zealot army build hellions research igniter continue building marines build 2 more rax into marauders --- when you have quite a few marauders/hellions push out and build an expo keep your hellions around for map control and run-by opportunities, keep banshees alive for sniping whatever --- requires a lot of multitasking but it helps block / delay usual 3-4 immortal timing pushes, and helps you counter mass zealot unit compositions by forcing stalkers built --- goal is to keep the protoss from focusing on his timing attack while you macro-up some anti units and not fall too far behind in economy --- a 1 immortal push probably destroys this but you should see it as your banshee's get to his base and/or scv is there, and build 2 bunkers and fill them with the marines you've been macro'ing | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
so your saying we should go upgraded helions and banshees...? get out of this thread please. you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. go back to your copper games. theres no where in your build to upgrade stim/conc and/or get ghost. without those you wont stand a chance. hellions require luck or certain maps such as kulas/blistering (think backdoors) which are hard to break open without being scouted. any other map toss will just FF ramp and your entire strat has been nullified. not to mention toss can just warp in stalkers @ home | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
If that's the attitude here, the thread needs to be locked, it's not longer a place for discussion. | ||
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