|
Why can't people realize the immortal is a soft counter to the marauder, once the marauder has stim + EMP backup the marauder actually kills immortals hard. EMP is nearly uncounterable (range 10 vs 9 range on feedback) and sits quite early on the tech tree.
I do agree with the terran scouting issue, the opportunity cost of a scan is quite high making it not that fantastic early on. There are decent other ways to get information though but require more effort then the observer.
In TvP this is much less a issue though as marauder/ghost/marine/medivac(+viking) does well against any toss army composition. All you have to scout for is the ratio of stuff you need.
Also emp counters a observer, especially if the observer moves you can see him pretty well on screen. Emp and the ghost automatically kills it.
If anything is wrong at all with the immortal it's his ability to kill buildings to easily, a immortal push early will take out buildings easily while running away to regen shield. I think changing buildings (except bunker/cannon/turrets/spire's etc) to non-light and non-armored such as queen would be a decent solution. That way marauders can't snipe nexi so fast and immortals dont kill building walls so insanely fast, which would leave a much stronger wall for terran to abuse the range advantage marauders have over immortals.
The game already has units with bonus damage solely to buildings (baneling and ghost nuke) so this would be a easy implementation imo.
|
I think the no-bonus DMG against Buildings is a good thing, but it should also apply for Static defense, cuz you can buff stuff like Spine Crawler as high as you want it's still bad against Marauders/Immortals and everything that does Bonus-DMG against "Armored".
|
Rofl, Terrans know that they have EMP. It's just a matter of fighting EVERYTHING ELSE besides the Immortals. We'll EMP the Immortals just fine and target the Immortals, but at the same time, the Protoss's Zealots/Sentries/Stalkers are tearing apart our units because Guardian Shield still protects Immortals by the Terran's max DPS. Remember, we're talking about this early immortal push. Terrans don't even have Medivacs by the time the push comes, we only have like 2 Ghosts + Marines + Marauders (maybe with stim). We can't fast expand, we just have to sit in our base. Protoss has map control meanwhile + can take expansions easily, because Terrans can't move out unless they have Medivacs. Terran is also quickly mining out his main because of MULEs. You see the dilemma?
|
The first attack/contain comes before ghosts have even started. Anyone who mentions the word ghost or EMP is an idiot. They're not even a factor. Ghosts will allow you to eventually break the contain perhaps, but not until toss has expanded, added gateways, and macro'd to double your size. Anyone who says go marauders/ghosts also has no idea what they're talking about. Immortal drop will keep you contained so long. Once a range colossus is out on the field it's game over. Oh and don't get contained, you'll be force fielded for 5 minutes. You don't have any way to stop it.
|
Can someone provide a replay with the immortal push? I probably am thinking of something totally different or am playing vs p who dont do it right or not at all but so far i ve a hard time losing vs toss early game if they don't cheese.
As a plat Terran player i mostly see me losing cause I am doing something wrong, i never ve the feeling like i had in wc3 with patch 1.5 where destroyers where just plain "i cant do anything against them". Me playing bad is mostly no indicator for something being too strong 
|
On April 13 2010 20:14 katzenkoenig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 19:58 arnold(soTa) wrote:On April 13 2010 19:13 katzenkoenig wrote:Arnold, could i convince you to try playing protoss a few games and post your results? I would be particularly interested in seeing all those cheap and lightning fast observers covering the whole map  I play all races, but mainly terran I will admit. I dont see whats so difficult in making fast obbservers seeing as I in 90+% of PvT will make a queite fast robotics... do I really need to post a replay of this? and you do know they can move right? you can upgrade their speed too... you dont need to build one per expansion, one will suffice for scouting purposes really, once you have established where his troops are and what his tech is you will be able to control the map, especially now that marauders cant put early pressure on P.. this is protoss 1.01 To be honest, your rant sounded more like Advanced Terran Bias... Observers cost 75 gas each, move pretty slowly and die in 3 hits from a turret that shoots fairly fast - if you don't babysit your observer, there's a really good chance you'll lose it (and a single scan also works wonders). You can upgrade their speed, but when you're going for colossi, you can't really afford to waste more time and gas on this upgrade when you want to get thermal lances and more than 1 colossus asap. Mass Bio is still the way to go for terran, teching for mech is a huge risk in most games - just like going for high templars. And hey, since 90% of all protoss are getting a fast robotics, you don't even have to scout in the first place
ye and how many minerals does one scan cost? 270.
and no you dont have to babysit your obbsevers roflcompstomp. you dont even have to worry about them since no good terran will be building turrets like crazy against protoss anyway. and losing one to scan is barely a setback since it cost him more to kill it than you paid for your obbserver x35, and you already got to use it for a while...
Just because I know most protoss goes early and fast robotics doesnt mean I dont need battlfield awareness........................ you sound like a copperplayer or just a really biased protoss. how about always being able to see your enemies troopmoment outside his base? without him being sure of when you can see him and when you cant? this discussion is just retarded.. how can you not see this, you may not thikn P>T, I dont honestly care and not 200% sure about it either, but obbs are queite clearly OP.
|
If I see one more mention of scan vs observers in this thread I'll ask every mod on TL to ban you from these forums. I don't care who you are or what your point is, it's not relevant, take it somewhere else. This is a thread about the immortal push, its implications, and how to play TvP in general. It is not a mule vs observer imbalance thread and I'm tired of trolls derailing it.
|
On April 13 2010 23:39 Floophead_III wrote:
The first attack/contain comes before ghosts have even started. Anyone who mentions the word ghost or EMP is an idiot.
"Ghost".... "EMP"....
I guess you're referring to a fast Robo into Immortal-push with a few Zealots, some sentry's and 1-2 Immos, right?
If you are contained and afraid of Protoss exing away in his backyard, why not put up a few Bunkers to counter force-fields and make an expansion in your base? you can even upgrade it to OCS and spam a few mules if you need a bit more time to gather a few M&M's and salvage your bunkers to push out with a few SCV's and secure your Nat.
Besides, expanding first in PvT is really hard for Protoss, cuz you really need every Unit you can get to defend against early Marauder-pushes, for T, expanding isn't a big deal, cuz they can stay in the base, put up a few bunkers and expand in the safety of their main.
other Options to deal with Containmaints:
- Tech to Banshees with cloak and rape Immos/Zealots/Sentrys HARD.
- Go for a Mass-stimmed Marauders+Ghost+SCV's ALL-IN (okay, quite radical, but a good option if you know that the Protoss is expanding atm and it will give you tons of wins.)
- Go for Medivac-Drops.
- Go for Tanks and break the contain. Even with hardened shields the Protoss has to back up when he can't attack up the ramp cuz of bunkers and Tanks and maybe a turret to deal with Observers.
- Get an Island-Expansion.
T really has the least problems of all races dealing with containments, so be a bit creative. ^^'
I don't say that Sentry-contains aren't strong and that fast-Immortals can rape Mass-Marauders early on, but you have lots of options dealing with that sort of early-game aggression very well, so use them and tech to ghosts and win.
Btw. Walling in against Protoss maybe not always the best Idea, cuz Immos can easily pick off buildings at the ramp, but have a very hard time against Marauders, cuz they have a long range and your Immos/Zealots/Sentrys are totally clumped up on the ramp - so maybe not walling in against Toss? 2-gate-Zealot-Proxy isn't that big of a deal with scv's+Marines anyways I guess, so I don't see the point of walling-in. Scouting is denied very fast thanks to marines as well...
|
Currently the TvP is pretty hard especially early game where we've to start a cheesy or all-in strat to "win" games against Protoss, thats sad.
At the moment, I find this Mu complelty broken and not rly balanced while we only got EMP and marauders which are easely countered by Templars (ppl complaining about EMP when they got templars please practice more -> just feedback those 2/3 ghosts since you get longer range and storm with the rest) Even with that you dont need to attack as Protoss in this match up btw.
For the Early game, we can forget the FE as an good timed immortal push will break out our defense or we'll have to put 4 bunkers and a fortress ( lol ) when they can just move back and outexpand us.
Or decide to siege tank / expo which can be possible (forget DO/Scrap Station) but with that you lose your timing to push out since mech builds is a joke against Protoss (thanks again immortal/charge/blink etc..) and your bio push timing will come too late.
Or staying in one base waiting 1505566 upgrades to MAYBE get a chance to fight early game against a protoss. With that if again the protoss is GOOD he will get the timing to be at your ramp and make FF during 3/5mins, just the time for him to get coloss with his expand.
So I wanted to add a big up to Blizzard, dunno which weed they used but seemed pretty effective for the patch8, I wait sooooooo much the next patch to see how they'll help the TvP (and even ZvP)
Otherwise it's still a bit fun to play but quite boring to start cheesy strategy or starting a game knowing that you've to finish the game under 15 mins.
Otherwise I find others MU pretty balanced (for terran) but its not the thread!
GL guys against your opp Protoss !!
Wanted to add that, people who are telling us to start banshees etc.. are probably in low gold/silver because again a decent protoss will get his robo and see your tech and adapt when your tech is cheesy. And late game stop telling us again banshees are imba with viking. Get some stalkers to kill viking and get obs to feedback banshees and its countered so easely.
|
On April 14 2010 00:06 SarenS wrote:
For the Early game, we can forget the FE as an good timed immortal push will break out our defense or we'll have to put 4 bunkers and a fortress ( lol ) when they can just move back and outexpand us.
Well, just FE'ing your ass off without knowing what your opponent is doing is just not the way to go, even though before the Marauder-nerf, exactly that was possible for Terran. You can't just get up a FE and expect to win against an early timing-push, cuz early timing-pushes counter Fast-Expansions and that's just the way it is.
Besides, ever tried mixing in a few Marines in your Mass-Marauder-Force or even wen't all rines+Bunker no gas expand early on? Maybe a better Idea then getting up all sorts of tech, gas-heavy stuff and expanding at the same time and thinking you'll get away with it and blindly playing the Unit that is countered by the Unit you seem so afraid off. ^^'
It's also important to look at the Maps. if you have Metalopolis cross-position, you can definitely get up an early expansion, just because the distance is so big, but if you really think you can pull it off on Steppes of War, you'll bound to loose to decent players.
It's not always Fast-Expansion or no Expansion all game long: Pressure with a few Marauders/Marines and scout if the opponent goes for an expansion. Cuz if you try to say to me that Protoss can deny a Terran expansion while expanding at the same time early on, youron drugs... xD
@SarenS: I wrote that Banshees are an option, cuz they rock against Immo+Sentry+zealot combo and no, I'm not low Gold or Silver, I'm currently first in my Plat division. :=P
|
Even if banshee rocks... It's sad if banshee must be a standard opening because it's the only one viable...
+1 with SarenS TvP is an extremely hard match up, especialy late game.
|
Here's a replay of banshee working, although it seems extremely cheesy (hiding starports from obs, that won't work for very long):
NarutO v MaNa
Does anyone know the actual range of feedback v EMP? I've heard people say that either one has the longer range.
|
@Blasius : Feedback got longer range thats why its pretty hard or almost impossible to EMP a decent protoss with Temps
Now talking about banshees opening agains the early push, I find it not a real viable options since you got too many options for protoss to kill you, 3/4 gates mass stalkers pressure or any early gates pressures and even without that 1gate-> robo with the obs coming when your starports are almost finished (or finished) is enough to quickly adapt against the build and to get the advantage.
1 stargate -> your tech
About FE, OF COURSE i wont FE on Steppes like a dumb player with one siege tank without putting pressure or knowing what my opp is going but tell me how you put pressure so. With mass marines at start ? lol ; Marauders ? they nerfed it and zealot/stalker own it badly now even if you macro well.
And try to stay in one base against a decent Protoss, he wont be idiot and will not suicide his army in your main, he'll stay at your ramp and ForceField when you go out raping your army.
For people telling "try Protoss and see their weakness" I tryed Protoss ofc, trying to play Random to discover races that can help for your skill and protoss is a joke at the moment. Just played some games with P my only loses was in PvP (where i've no clue what units was effective and dont know about BO at all) otherwise it was almost FREEWIN especially vs Terran. Too easy to adapt and 100 supply good mix from Protoss can easely rape 150/160 army from Terran.
So I would say to people especially Protoss players, try out Terran. Feedback about your thought in the MU would be a great thing ! Personnaly I find it the most HARDEST Mu (dont want to say imbalance) and maybe Zerg players got some problems with P too (dunno that much about this MU)
|
On April 14 2010 00:48 SarenS wrote:
@Blasius : Feedback got longer range thats why its pretty hard or almost impossible to EMP a decent protoss with Temps
do you know the numbers?
|
I would say 1 range more, ghost is around 7 I guess Feedback would be 8.
|
On April 14 2010 00:55 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 00:48 SarenS wrote:
@Blasius : Feedback got longer range thats why its pretty hard or almost impossible to EMP a decent protoss with Temps
do you know the numbers?
like serens said plenty of times i had 30-40food army bigger and still lost the battle, terran is supposed to place few emp's on toss army otherwise he would have no chance, P counters it by spreading army (hts particulary ) and feedbacking ghost in advance thx to obs.
|
I'm surprised at the underappreciation of banshee tech in TvP. One of the points that is being missed is that massing banshees forces the protoss to commit his gas to units and techs that he really doesn't want a lot of against a terran early on, particularly phoenixes and stalkers. This means that the protoss player will have less immortals and very-delayed colossi. If you supplement your banshee fleet with marines/marauders (mostly marines for obvious reasons), you'll have a mid-game attack force that is surprisingly difficult for the protoss player to deal with, especially if he has committed to robo tech.
Here's the key though: your goal with the banshees isn't necessarily to harass his probe line. Your real goal is to combine your ground and air forces and destroy his army. This will put the protoss on the defensive so that you can either expand or, if things go really well, kill the protoss outright.
|
Posted this in another thread but realized that this is where it should be
There's such a thin line between balanced and not balanced.
Before the patch a protoss would end up behind with arguably the most common openings - marauder FE and fast robotics. Now that terran doesn't have map control early on the protoss can push out earlier and scout the FE before observers. Imo FE used to work due to early map control - as a protoss it was a gamble to move out early while now I can pressure the terran and know for sure if he's expanding.
I think the amount of shields on the immortal should be reduced. The reason I want this specific nerf is that if you nerf anything else it will still be all about EMP, hit or miss, win or lose.
|
On April 14 2010 01:04 Gigaudas wrote:Posted this in another thread but realized that this is where it should be There's such a thin line between balanced and not balanced
Good thing it's not up to us to decide where that fine line is. It's up to us to figure out how to win in the current state of the game. I see too much crying, and not enough people throwing out ideas.
This is NOT where your post should be. This is a thread about holding off the early immortal push. Not about your opinion on balance.
|
I already wrote it in the other post but 2 port banshee into siege FE (because he'll make stalker to counter that for sure) into mass rine/banshee/tanks work pretty well for me. Immortals are not a threat like this. P won't make a lot of them, or they'll die almost instantly against your banshees while tanks destroy his stalkers.
I haven't faced a toss who used blink stalkers against that composition yet, but I usually steamroll stalker/immortal/zealot army with that composition. Siege tank are out of immortals range so they aren't 3 shooted ^^.
I can provide some rep if you want (i'm in platinium league now) but I don't think it'll help that much because I'm not very good. I haven't lost against gold/mid platinium player with that strategy yet.
It looks like the safest way to play atm because FE is suicide and 3 raxs +1 ghost bust is pretty much all-in and get countered very easy with colossus. 10 rax and faster are just cheese and not very fun to play.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
