|
On April 14 2010 00:59 SarenS wrote:
I would say 1 range more, ghost is around 7 I guess Feedback would be 8.
Well, I tested it, and EMP has 10 range, and the burst extends almost to 12. Good luck getting feedback off first, considering it's:
a.) single target vs. aoe
b.) ghosts are fast/tiny, templars are slow and wear technicolor dreamrobes
c.) ghosts cloak.
Everyone saying "no good protoss will ever get hit by emp" is full of shit.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
On April 14 2010 01:22 ganil wrote:
I already wrote it in the other post but 2 port banshee into siege FE (because he'll make stalker to counter that for sure) into mass rine/banshee/tanks work pretty well for me. Immortals are not a threat like this. P won't make a lot of them, or they'll die almost instantly against your banshees while tanks destroy his stalkers.
I haven't faced a toss who used blink stalkers against that composition yet, but I usually steamroll stalker/immortal/zealot army with that composition. Siege tank are out of immortals range so they aren't 3 shooted ^^.
I can provide some rep if you want (i'm in platinium league now) but I don't think it'll help that much because I'm not very good. I haven't lost against gold/mid platinium player with that strategy yet.
It looks like the safest way to play atm because FE is suicide and 3 raxs +1 ghost bust is pretty much all-in and get countered very easy with colossus. 10 rax and faster are just cheese and not very fun to play.
That's better, thanks :-p
|
On April 14 2010 01:04 2SCV1cup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 00:55 BlasiuS wrote:On April 14 2010 00:48 SarenS wrote:
@Blasius : Feedback got longer range thats why its pretty hard or almost impossible to EMP a decent protoss with Temps
do you know the numbers? like serens said plenty of times i had 30-40food army bigger and still lost the battle, terran is supposed to place few emp's on toss army otherwise he would have no chance, P counters it by spreading army (hts particulary ) and feedbacking ghost in advance thx to obs.
lol? What are you even talking about. It was a simple question ._.
On April 14 2010 01:23 fatduck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 00:59 SarenS wrote:
I would say 1 range more, ghost is around 7 I guess Feedback would be 8. Well, I tested it, and EMP has 10 range, and the burst extends almost to 12. Good luck getting feedback off first, considering it's: a.) single target vs. aoe b.) ghosts are fast/tiny, templars are slow and wear technicolor dreamrobes c.) ghosts cloak. Everyone saying "no good protoss will ever get hit by emp" is full of shit. + Show Spoiler +
cool. What's the range on feedback?
|
I already wrote it in the other post but 2 port banshee into siege FE (because he'll make stalker to counter that for sure) into mass rine/banshee/tanks work pretty well for me. Immortals are not a threat like this. P won't make a lot of them, or they'll die almost instantly against your banshees while tanks destroy his stalkers.
I haven't faced a toss who used blink stalkers against that composition yet, but I usually steamroll stalker/immortal/zealot army with that composition. Siege tank are out of immortals range so they aren't 3 shooted ^^.
I can provide some rep if you want (i'm in platinium league now) but I don't think it'll help that much because I'm not very good. I haven't lost against gold/mid platinium player with that strategy yet.
It looks like the safest way to play atm because FE is suicide and 3 raxs +1 ghost bust is pretty much all-in and get countered very easy with colossus. 10 rax and faster are just cheese and not very fun to play.
|
On April 14 2010 00:48 SarenS wrote:
For people telling "try Protoss and see their weakness" I tryed Protoss ofc, [...] Too easy to adapt and 100 supply good mix from Protoss can easely rape 150/160 army from Terran.
So I would say to people especially Protoss players, try out Terran. Feedback about your thought in the MU would be a great thing ! Personnaly I find it the most HARDEST Mu (dont want to say imbalance) and maybe Zerg players got some problems with P too (dunno that much about this MU)
I tried terran last patch and went from 40ish plat to the top 25 inside a weekend. So is that what you mean by hardest? I had only one build (marauder mass, occasionally adding marines, and medivacs later) and it rolled over most opponents. If I made ONE research upgrade at the tech lab... i'm in the exact same patch as before, except my thors now build faster and i lol@mutas because of them.
That amount of hyperbole about toss isn't making you sound convincing. If you won't produce a replay of a 100 sup toss army "easily raping," 150+ supply in terran units then i'm calling your bluff. That's an outrageous claim. 150 supply in marauders with stim will give almost any toss army a run for it's money, and that's if they're of equal size. I seriously doubt you took the time to play toss if you still think the race is "free wins."
@the earlier "can't emp because ghost is freedbacked." Research cloak, build a raven, snipe obs (he'll send them in before his army to spot the HT), cloaked ghosts emp un-opposed. And before you start to pitch a fit saying the raven is t3, so is the templar.
|
So, I just watched all 3 of those games real quick this morning, and I have some questions.
What was the purpose of the Siege Tanks, 3 times in a row?
Why did you keep trying to expand to your natural when it was obvious you were cornered and not going to be able to plant there?
Why didn't you try Marauders?
I'm just not seeing how lack of Conc Shells at the very start of the game completely broke this matchup. I don't see any attempt by you to try different builds when facing the same attack three times in a row: just Marines and Tanks every single time.
Had you made Marauders and got Conc shells real quick (which can be done before the Immortals arrive), he would have lost a unit every single time he tried to run away, which happened a lot. Its not like he just waltzed in and battered your front door in an instant. It dragged out, and that's where Conc Shells really, really shine.
The multi-barracks bio ball spam should have walked all over that.
|
On April 14 2010 01:21 Pelirrojo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 01:04 Gigaudas wrote:Posted this in another thread but realized that this is where it should be  There's such a thin line between balanced and not balanced Good thing it's not up to us to decide where that fine line is. It's up to us to figure out how to win in the current state of the game. I see too much crying, and not enough people throwing out ideas. This is NOT where your post should be. This is a thread about holding off the early immortal push. Not about your opinion on balance.
Changing the Immortal is mentioned by the OP. My post was an explanation of why the Immortal should be changed (and why it wasn't the case during the last patch, at least not in regards to PvT) and there were also suggestions about how it should be changed.
How is that not on topic? It even touched the subject of Terran FE which is debated in the thread.
|
On April 14 2010 01:22 ganil wrote:
I already wrote it in the other post but 2 port banshee into siege FE (because he'll make stalker to counter that for sure) into mass rine/banshee/tanks work pretty well for me. Immortals are not a threat like this. P won't make a lot of them, or they'll die almost instantly against your banshees while tanks destroy his stalkers.
I haven't faced a toss who used blink stalkers against that composition yet, but I usually steamroll stalker/immortal/zealot army with that composition. Siege tank are out of immortals range so they aren't 3 shooted ^^.
I can provide some rep if you want (i'm in platinium league now) but I don't think it'll help that much because I'm not very good. I haven't lost against gold/mid platinium player with that strategy yet.
It looks like the safest way to play atm because FE is suicide and 3 raxs +1 ghost bust is pretty much all-in and get countered very easy with colossus. 10 rax and faster are just cheese and not very fun to play.
I don't think that blink stalkers would really help the toss. Blink only helps if the toss player is chasing the banshees around while the terran player is using them to harass the toss. As I stated above, the real goal for the terran player is to use the banshees in conjunction with his ground troops to destroy the protoss army. In these standup fights, blink is only marginally helpful.
Also, no race should ever be able to FE in complete safety against any other race in any matchup. If you FE and the other player scouts it early, he should be able to punish you for it. (And yes, I'm saying this as someone who played protoss in SC1 and did FE builds against zerg.)
|
Yeah I still don't understand how the concussion shell change somehow managed to tilt the threads from "can't win PvT" to "can't kill immortals". I've asked a few times, but people won't tell me!^^;. It's not even like protoss can easily retreat without concussion shells. Stimpack still gives marauders enough speed for long enough to kill half your army. Except now your other half gets away instead of being slowed =P.
Really the only thing the concussion shell change does in a head-to-head fight is give zealots an extra attack, no? Or it makes it so that you can't kill off all the zealots earlygame by kiting them in circles. Neither of which make any difference if you're standing behind a supply depot wall either.
|
@WorkersofTheWorld Im asking myself if you really played Terran just by this sentence:
"@the earlier "can't emp because ghost is freedbacked." Research cloak, build a raven, snipe obs (he'll send them in before his army to spot the HT), cloaked ghosts emp un-opposed. And before you start to pitch a fit saying the raven is t3, so is the templar."
HF with your gaz
Btw if you wanna play PvT me P would be a pleasure to show you what good Protoss could do against a "mass marauders" which isnt that effective as it was now in top lvl plat.
|
On April 14 2010 01:39 Feefee wrote:
Yeah I still don't understand how the concussion shell change somehow managed to tilt the threads from "can't win PvT" to "can't kill immortals". I've asked a few times, but people won't tell me!^^;. It's not even like protoss can easily retreat without concussion shells. Stimpack still gives marauders enough speed for long enough to kill half your army. Except now your other half gets away instead of being slowed =P.
Really the only thing the concussion shell change does in a head-to-head fight is give zealots an extra attack, no? Or it makes it so that you can't kill off all the zealots earlygame by kiting them in circles. Neither of which make any difference if you're standing behind a supply depot wall either.
Terran lost map control early game when they lost concussion shells. Losing map control early on meant they couldn't expand as safely. A nerf to the economy and the macro of Terran results in having a harder time to deal with units such as the Immortal.
That's what I think 
|
Immortals are too fast. Spawn larva makes zerg unbeatable.
Half man, half bear, half pig. 100% whiner.
|
On April 14 2010 01:26 Bibdy wrote:
So, I just watched all 3 of those games real quick this morning, and I have some questions.
What was the purpose of the Siege Tanks, 3 times in a row?
Why did you keep trying to expand to your natural when it was obvious you were cornered and not going to be able to plant there?
Why didn't you try Marauders?
I'm just not seeing how lack of Conc Shells at the very start of the game completely broke this matchup. I don't see any attempt by you to try different builds when facing the same attack three times in a row: just Marines and Tanks every single time.
Had you made Marauders and got Conc shells real quick (which can be done before the Immortals arrive), he would have lost a unit every single time he tried to run away, which happened a lot. Its not like he just waltzed in and battered your front door in an instant. It dragged out, and that's where Conc Shells really, really shine.
The multi-barracks bio ball spam should have walked all over that.
Agreed. And, ironically, terran bio balls do still run over protoss on a regular basis. Not sure how this patch forced every terran to loose his mind, start building siege tanks and fast-expanding without any kind of map control, but the fact this thread has gone on this long without a decent replay is a testament to just how spoon-fed Terran were last patch in TvP.
If you really "just can't win," when the game isn't handed to you from marauder #1, then I think you're going to have a hard time with any race, any match-up, and not just TvP.
|
On April 14 2010 01:24 BlasiuS wrote:
cool. What's the range on feedback?
Liquipedia says 9, so I'll trust that. I'd test it but you can't feedback your own units 
|
On April 14 2010 01:42 SarenS wrote:
Btw if you wanna play PvT me P would be a pleasure to show you what good Protoss could do against a "mass marauders" which isnt that effective as it was now in top lvl plat.
On April 14 2010 01:49 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
the fact this thread has gone on this long without a decent replay is a testament to just how spoon-fed Terran were last patch in TvP.
Here's your chance to give us a good replay to talk about! I would love to see this happen!
|
On April 14 2010 01:26 Bibdy wrote:
I'm just not seeing how lack of Conc Shells at the very start of the game completely broke this matchup. I don't see any attempt by you to try different builds when facing the same attack three times in a row: just Marines and Tanks every single time.
It didn't 'break' it, but it DID change it drastically:
On April 13 2010 04:11 BlasiuS wrote:
pre-patch 8 Terran won most of their games against protoss with builds that revolved around marauders starting out with slow:
1. 1 rax marauder FE: this worked because marauders w/slow prevented early harass on your FE. Now that marauders don't start with slow, zealots are WAY stronger v terran in the early game; this build dies to aggressive zealot harass, which will run terran over before shells are finished.
2. fast (proxy) reaper -> marauder: this build worked because reapers forced stalkers, which were then countered by marauders, which could be made immediately after 2-3 reapers, and since they started with slow, they beat stalkers very easily. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build is unable to put any follow-up pressure after the reapers. Before shells are researched, Stalkers > Marauders in small numbers.
3. fast (proxy) marauder: this relied on marauders hitting protoss before immortals came out. It worked because marauders w/slow > stalkers or zealots that early in the game. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build doesn't work for the same reason 1 rax marauder FE doesn't work: you get run over by zealots or zealot/sentry before your shells can benefit you.
None of these 3 builds work anymore, because marauders don't start with slow. You don't seem to recognize that it was a BIG change. Terran was hardest hit on build #1, now terran is struggling to find a build that they can FE with. From what I've seen, MoRRoW has the best FE build, with 1 rax marines -> FE -> MASS shield marines + at least 4 bunkers, and pray toss doesn't attack you before your shield upgrade is done. Even then, zealot/sentry just rapes, force field prevents SCVs from repairing bunkers, and guardian shield basically hard-counters marines.
Essentially, the main builds that Terran used in TvP don't work in patch 8, and Terrans are having to completely re-learn the matchup from scratch.
Not that that's a bad thing, I have no problem with being forced to re-learn a matchup in the name of balance. But many people seem to be confused as to why Terrans are having problems after concussive shells moved to an upgrade. Well, this is why.
|
On April 14 2010 01:43 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 01:39 Feefee wrote:
Yeah I still don't understand how the concussion shell change somehow managed to tilt the threads from "can't win PvT" to "can't kill immortals". I've asked a few times, but people won't tell me!^^;. It's not even like protoss can easily retreat without concussion shells. Stimpack still gives marauders enough speed for long enough to kill half your army. Except now your other half gets away instead of being slowed =P.
Really the only thing the concussion shell change does in a head-to-head fight is give zealots an extra attack, no? Or it makes it so that you can't kill off all the zealots earlygame by kiting them in circles. Neither of which make any difference if you're standing behind a supply depot wall either. Terran lost map control early game when they lost concussion shells. Losing map control early on meant they couldn't expand as safely. A nerf to the economy and the macro of Terran results in having a harder time to deal with units such as the Immortal. That's what I think
Except no terran I know expanded before the protoss got out robo tech. At least no terran had to or did it standard. I agree you lose "map control" against the early 3 zealots ^^;. As soon as you get a sizeable marauder force out, and especially once you get a ghost out you have all the map control, concussion shells or not.
I wonder if people are trying to tell me that the terran has no map control (can't expand) all the while the protoss is expanding? Because you can roll over a toss even more if he's expanding off of a few zealots, or maybe one immortal. And if you're saying you can't expand against a protoss who's not expanding then... well..^^; (in fact you can if you start your cc in your base). Still baffled how concussion shells supposedly make or break this matchup =P
And ok: it broke 1rax fast expand, and two proxy cheeses that were almost impossible for the protoss to defend (which is exactly why that concussion upgrade was put in place). In fact, even a 1 rax fast expand is pretty damn broken^^; you don't see 1 gate fast expand being viable as toss either.
|
On April 14 2010 02:08 Feefee wrote:
Except no terran I know expanded before the protoss got out robo tech. At least no terran had to or did it standard.
Yes they did, and yes it was standard. before patch 8 1 rax marauder FE was THE standard for TvP.
On April 14 2010 02:08 Feefee wrote:
I agree you lose "map control" against the early 3 zealots ^^;. As soon as you get a sizeable marauder force out, and especially once you get a ghost out you have all the map control, concussion shells or not.
I wonder if people are trying to tell me that the terran has no map control (can't expand) all the while the protoss is expanding? Because you can roll over a toss even more if he's expanding off of a few zealots, or maybe one immortal. And if you're saying you can't expand against a protoss who's not expanding then... well..^^; (in fact you can if you start your cc in your base). Still baffled how concussion shells supposedly make or break this matchup =P
And ok: it broke 1rax fast expand, and two proxy cheeses that were almost impossible for the protoss to defend (which is exactly why that concussion upgrade was put in place). In fact, even a 1 rax fast expand is pretty damn broken^^; you don't see 1 gate fast expand being viable as toss either.
The difference is that 1 gate FE has NEVER been standard, but 1 rax marauder FE was standard before patch 8. Terran can't do their standard TvP build anymore, that's why so many are complaining, however unfounded it may be.
|
Protoss now has no fear of being killed by early marauders now in the sense that if they don't have a larger army they lose. It's still a threat but since you can actually pull back from an engagement you're losing you can have less units and still hold fine. This means you can go very fast robotics and be safe. Immortal pushes force terran to chill back in his base, which is fine, but now terran has 3 options all of which play to a losing game:
-Spam marauders/ghost and try to break out with sheer force - loses to immortal drops because you have no anti air at all, so you get stuck in your base even longer than you should, and god forbid he uses sentries to FF your ramp/choke infinitely. You can't outrange those FFs so you're stuck until he lets you out or you get tanks/air.
-Go tanks/ghosts/marines/turrets. This is what I've been trying to do because I think it's the most viable composition. The problem is that it takes so long to get this up and running and you're STILL stuck in your main for really long time. Protoss can simply expand and outmacro and you're playing a losing game.
-Go banshees/fast drops. More likely than not protoss will blow through your front unless you have something like 4 bunkers there, in which case any good protoss will go straight to drops. If you ever manage to get banshees out, they won't be a surprise, and they won't be able to do anything but sit around defending. Meanwhile protoss can just expand/make stalker/make obs and you'll be outmacro'd. I think it might be possible to make this work, but I want to see a lot of replays before even considering it a viable option. As of now I haven't seen anything to contradict that it is in fact a losing game.
|
On April 14 2010 02:16 BlasiuS wrote:
The difference is that 1 gate FE has NEVER been standard, but 1 rax marauder FE was standard before patch 8. Terran can't do their standard TvP build anymore, that's why so many are complaining, however unfounded it may be.
This pretty much sums it up. These forums were full of whiners after the warp gate research time got doubled, because 3 warpgate rush was standard and incredible powerful, and was completely eliminated by the patch. Now the standard terran opening got eliminated and the forums are full of whiners again and toss has "too many options." Eventually people will get tired of complaining and adapt (or the next patch will spark off a new complaining fad).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/274/screenshot000h.jpg)
