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Well, find a way to artificially delay the push then. Here's a suggestion, make hardened shields a 100/100 upgrade and slap it in the cyber core with a 100 sec time. There, done. Immortals are still the stone cold rapists they have to be, Protoss has to choose between shields and immortals and warpgates and Terran has a bit more breathing time before the long hard cock of Protoss descends down their throat.
What I don't like is that the other tech trees are a bit crap. Starport is useless (phoenixes.... LOL!) and the templar tech can be counterable. Suggestion here? Alter Gravitron beam to be different vs light biological targets; it doesn't channel and perhaps cost less. This would allows phoenixes to harass bio terrans by flying in, lifting up some marines, shooting them really quickly then running back, recharging shields and doing it again. It won't kill the terran (probably) but if he's caught unprepared then he is going to get hurt, but this sounds like a post for another thread...
Stick with the immortals.
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On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now.
fuck yea you are completly right, so many ppl missing the point. in sc1 terrans had scan and it had its own energypool, now T has to sacrifice his macromechanic if he wants to get awareness and be able to prepare, but then you are unable to prepare because you just wasted 270minerals on static obbserver that lasts for 10seconds..... and obs come from the same building that immo/collosos and warp prism, which is a must have building for any P... = no sideways tech.
Its obvious to me (and you it seems) that obbs should require an additional building/cost more/take longer to build for it to even out this MU.
Either that or fix the orbital command, because right now its broken imo, Ive said this for a long time but no1 cares >.< the problem is blatant in TvP but also shown in TvZ, having to sacrifice economy for scouting is just not fun for your macro..
Oh and its impossible to run over creep to scout Zerg exps/tech because of every unit gains speed on creep, outrunning every T unit and they just die before they get anywhere, 1 zergling will stop any unit..sigh =/ floating factory is one way to go about it, but having to fly your own tech building into your enemies base to find out wtf is going on is just sad...
also its not like its hard to hide tech with any race, not even Z any more, you can just poop creep anywhere and hide techbuildings, even easier than for a protoss player.
The problem is most blatant in tho is TvT which is imo a rockpaperscissors game.. scan to much? you just lost to an early tankpush.
Scan to little? you just lost to banshees/vikings/fastexp
It could be argued that its a skill to determine when to scan and when to mule, but its really just a gamble, you have to make assumptions all the time about what your opponent is doing, which is retarded for a STRATEGY GAME.
point made, blizz now fix :D
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On April 13 2010 16:37 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now. fuck yea you are completly right, so many ppl missing the point. in sc1 terrans had scan and it had its own energypool, now T has to sacrifice his macromechanic if he wants to get awareness and be able to prepare, but then you are unable to prepare because you just wasted 270minerals on static obbserver that lasts for 10seconds..... and obs come from the same building that immo/collosos and warp prism, which is a must have building for any P... = no sideways tech. Its obvious to me (and you it seems) that obbs should require an additional building/cost more/take longer to build for it to even out this MU. Either that or fix the orbital command, because right now its broken imo, Ive said this for a long time but no1 cares >.< the problem is blatant in TvP but also shown in TvZ, having to sacrifice economy for scouting is just not fun for your macro.. Oh and its impossible to run over creep to scout Zerg exps/tech because of every unit gains speed on creep, outrunning every T unit and they just die before they get anywhere, 1 zergling will stop any unit..sigh =/ floating factory is one way to go about it, but having to fly your own tech building into your enemies base to find out wtf is going on is just sad... also its not like its hard to hide tech with any race, not even Z any more, you can just poop creep anywhere and hide techbuildings, even easier than for a protoss player. The problem is most blatant in tho is TvT which is imo a rockpaperscissors game.. scan to much? you just lost to an early tankpush. Scan to little? you just lost to banshees/vikings/fastexp It could be argued that its a skill to determine when to scan and when to mule, but its really just a gamble, you have to make assumptions all the time about what your opponent is doing, which is retarded for a STRATEGY GAME. point made, blizz now fix :D
you know you could build like...turrets. i heard theyre good.
the reason scan is expensive is because its all the time every time. you cant deny scan.
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On April 13 2010 16:37 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now. + Show Spoiler +fuck yea you are completly right, so many ppl missing the point. in sc1 terrans had scan and it had its own energypool, now T has to sacrifice his macromechanic if he wants to get awareness and be able to prepare, but then you are unable to prepare because you just wasted 270minerals on static obbserver that lasts for 10seconds..... and obs come from the same building that immo/collosos and warp prism, which is a must have building for any P... = no sideways tech.
Its obvious to me (and you it seems) that obbs should require an additional building/cost more/take longer to build for it to even out this MU.
Either that or fix the orbital command, because right now its broken imo, Ive said this for a long time but no1 cares >.< the problem is blatant in TvP but also shown in TvZ, having to sacrifice economy for scouting is just not fun for your macro..
Oh and its impossible to run over creep to scout Zerg exps/tech because of every unit gains speed on creep, outrunning every T unit and they just die before they get anywhere, 1 zergling will stop any unit..sigh =/ floating factory is one way to go about it, but having to fly your own tech building into your enemies base to find out wtf is going on is just sad...
also its not like its hard to hide tech with any race, not even Z any more, you can just poop creep anywhere and hide techbuildings, even easier than for a protoss player. The problem is most blatant in tho is TvT which is imo a rockpaperscissors game.. scan to much? you just lost to an early tankpush. Scan to little? you just lost to banshees/vikings/fastexp It could be argued that its a skill to determine when to scan and when to mule, but its really just a gamble, you have to make assumptions all the time about what your opponent is doing, which is retarded for a STRATEGY GAME. point made, blizz now fix :D
I've been saying the exact same thing for a while now. 270 minerals is a ridiculous cost for a scan, no serious Terran will consider that worthwhile early game.
You think once this game has been out a while macro Terrans in the Iloveoov mold are gonna waste 270 minerals? Don't make me laugh. Even if you do scan against a good player you've got a 50% chance of seeing nothing at all.
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On April 13 2010 16:42 mOnion wrote:
you know you could build like...turrets. i heard theyre good.
the reason scan is expensive is because its all the time every time. you cant deny scan.
You need 5+ turrets to deny observers from seeing your base. Simply impossible in a real game.
You can never deny speedlords or a changling.
Your scan will often show nothing if they hide their tech building. 270 minerals gone, for nothing.
Observers were way costlier and slower to obtain and very much a sideways tech in SC1. Unbalanced? No.
Scans cost next to nothing in SC1. Unbalanced? No.
Zerg had much few scouting options in SC1 than in SC2. Unbalanced? No.
From sc1 to sc2 -> Z and P scouting got buffed. T got nerfed.
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On April 13 2010 16:42 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 16:37 arnold(soTa) wrote:On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now. fuck yea you are completly right, so many ppl missing the point. in sc1 terrans had scan and it had its own energypool, now T has to sacrifice his macromechanic if he wants to get awareness and be able to prepare, but then you are unable to prepare because you just wasted 270minerals on static obbserver that lasts for 10seconds..... and obs come from the same building that immo/collosos and warp prism, which is a must have building for any P... = no sideways tech. Its obvious to me (and you it seems) that obbs should require an additional building/cost more/take longer to build for it to even out this MU. Either that or fix the orbital command, because right now its broken imo, Ive said this for a long time but no1 cares >.< the problem is blatant in TvP but also shown in TvZ, having to sacrifice economy for scouting is just not fun for your macro.. Oh and its impossible to run over creep to scout Zerg exps/tech because of every unit gains speed on creep, outrunning every T unit and they just die before they get anywhere, 1 zergling will stop any unit..sigh =/ floating factory is one way to go about it, but having to fly your own tech building into your enemies base to find out wtf is going on is just sad... also its not like its hard to hide tech with any race, not even Z any more, you can just poop creep anywhere and hide techbuildings, even easier than for a protoss player. The problem is most blatant in tho is TvT which is imo a rockpaperscissors game.. scan to much? you just lost to an early tankpush. Scan to little? you just lost to banshees/vikings/fastexp It could be argued that its a skill to determine when to scan and when to mule, but its really just a gamble, you have to make assumptions all the time about what your opponent is doing, which is retarded for a STRATEGY GAME. point made, blizz now fix :D you know you could build like...turrets. i heard theyre good. the reason scan is expensive is because its all the time every time. you cant deny scan.
yes like im gonna make eng bay vs protoss early game ? also turrets are stationary and cost 100minerals (not counting buildingtime) low health and only attack air+collosus
you didnt adress anything I argued, you just named a static D and were done with it, i heard that is like...retarded.
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You need 5+ turrets to deny observers from seeing your base. Simply impossible in a real game.
well thats not true at all. on maps like LT you can get away with like 3. its very much doable in real games especially not that turrets 3 shot obs.
yes like im gonna make eng bay vs protoss early game
why not? upgrades are beneficial as well.
in sc1 turret placment became an artform for denying scouting and there are many notable games where you have to sack 2 stacked observers in order to see what terran is doing, and if you didnt do it fast enought then T would deep six you (sorry bisu)
scanning is relatively expensive, but there's no reason you cant scout with banshees/vikings if scanning is too rich for ur blood.
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While i am not a good player, but i think a few ghost will do...
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Earlier i thought it was possible to FE and i posted a build
Turns out i was wrong, after practising this build a few times with some friends it still gets rolled over if protoss all-ins correctly.
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On April 13 2010 17:34 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +You need 5+ turrets to deny observers from seeing your base. Simply impossible in a real game. well thats not true at all. on maps like LT you can get away with like 3. its very much doable in real games especially not that turrets 3 shot obs. why not? upgrades are beneficial as well. in sc1 turret placment became an artform for denying scouting and there are many notable games where you have to sack 2 stacked observers in order to see what terran is doing, and if you didnt do it fast enought then T would deep six you (sorry bisu) scanning is relatively expensive, but there's no reason you cant scout with banshees/vikings if scanning is too rich for ur blood.
your original post offered nothing construtive, I wasnt beng defensive, I just merely brushing your post off because you jumped passed all the logical arguments and said "build some static D"
The point is no sideways tech for obbserver = there will always be a TON of them scouting whle being invisible.. without requiring any economical sacrifices excepts the buildtime for obbservers (they are cheap aswell...)
You suggest I should tech to starport to scout??? really? ofcourse I will scout with a viking/medevac if I go any build that requires starport...but honestly you will not have one early unless you make a bansheersuh, which you wont because you die to competent players.
turretplacement in sc1 may be "an artform" lols, but its still not viable to put up 3+ turrets in my base simply beacuse there MIGHT be an obbserver there.. and even if there is I have just wasted 300 minerals + buildtime on denying your scouting my mainbase ....but you have already gathered the needed information by the time my first turret is up anyway...
the reason turretplacement was as you say an artform in sc1 in TvP is because obbservers..but for a different reason than mainly to scout, they were to detect spidermines <-- arent in sc2..
also there was the very possible dangers of reavers/zealot/HT drops ontop of tanks/minerallines etc..
obbservers can traverse the map in no time checking expansions/troop movement etc, and terran has no mobile detector except the raven, which is really expensive and ontop of the techtree, granted I will make on often vs P but still this is a non-factor early game.
honestly I wonder if you even have the beta..seems like you are thinking in sc1 terms, the game is VERY different and especially TvP is extremly different...
edit: obbserver will just move out of turretrange when he sees them build, you wont get the kill vs a player with apm over 40 unless he cocks up...congrats now you are freet to tech..oh wait he has just busted up your front door while you spent all your resources on being able to tech to..what exactly? immortal covers it anyway and is very decent against marauders also.. I may have gone a bit offtopic from the orignal post but I tend to rant on sometimes sry..
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Arnold, could i convince you to try playing protoss a few games and post your results? I would be particularly interested in seeing all those cheap and lightning fast observers covering the whole map 
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i dont seee why observers matter, toss doesnt need observers to win. theres nothing terran can do to throw toss off balance. the most you can throw them is banshees and thats countered near instantly.
in my experience, sometimes protoss will make 2-3 immortals b4 an observer. because it doesnt matter what i went an immortal push will take it out.
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On April 13 2010 19:13 katzenkoenig wrote:Arnold, could i convince you to try playing protoss a few games and post your results? I would be particularly interested in seeing all those cheap and lightning fast observers covering the whole map
I play all races, but mainly terran I will admit. I dont see whats so difficult in making fast obbservers seeing as I in 90+% of PvT will make a queite fast robotics...
do I really need to post a replay of this?
and you do know they can move right? you can upgrade their speed too... you dont need to build one per expansion, one will suffice for scouting purposes really, once you have established where his troops are and what his tech is you will be able to control the map, especially now that marauders cant put early pressure on P.. this is protoss 1.01
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On April 13 2010 19:58 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 19:13 katzenkoenig wrote:Arnold, could i convince you to try playing protoss a few games and post your results? I would be particularly interested in seeing all those cheap and lightning fast observers covering the whole map I play all races, but mainly terran I will admit. I dont see whats so difficult in making fast obbservers seeing as I in 90+% of PvT will make a queite fast robotics... do I really need to post a replay of this? and you do know they can move right? you can upgrade their speed too... you dont need to build one per expansion, one will suffice for scouting purposes really, once you have established where his troops are and what his tech is you will be able to control the map, especially now that marauders cant put early pressure on P.. this is protoss 1.01
To be honest, your rant sounded more like Advanced Terran Bias... Observers cost 75 gas each, move pretty slowly and die in 3 hits from a turret that shoots fairly fast - if you don't babysit your observer, there's a really good chance you'll lose it (and a single scan also works wonders). You can upgrade their speed, but when you're going for colossi, you can't really afford to waste more time and gas on this upgrade when you want to get thermal lances and more than 1 colossus asap. Mass Bio is still the way to go for terran, teching for mech is a huge risk in most games - just like going for high templars. And hey, since 90% of all protoss are getting a fast robotics, you don't even have to scout in the first place
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The problem with observer isnt just the all the time scouting in enemy base. It pretty much denies all high ground advantage of a T or Z.
Dont say build turrets there is always a spot where u can place the observer and cant be seen. Ive seen some replays in a post here where observer+temps pretty much wins the toss game easily.
- see T army at all times and click on feedback from afar. If u set ur temps to feedback from like 100 yards away T cant react in time no matter the APM.
- tank+rines drop on LT ridge? no problem just put observer near and blink up
- medivacs thors all can be feedbacked from afar w/o the need of a high APM toss just because u see the T army first.
- in sc1 u needed an aditional building to make observers and they moved like snails w/o aditional upgrade. In sc2 u just build robotics (core building of P ground army) - in sc1 u build robotics only for shuttle and/or reavers with adiitional buildings needed.
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On April 13 2010 20:28 sadyque wrote:
The problem with observer isnt just the all the time scouting in enemy base. It pretty much denies all high ground advantage of a T or Z.
- Z has Overlords and T has Scans... Observers cost a lot of Gas and if you don't plan on going for Immos or Collossi, they even need another Building... Besides, T almost always has Medivacs, which completely kill any highground-advantage.
But I'm not saying that the current high-ground-advantage-system isn't absolute crap - cuz it is! ^^'
On April 13 2010 20:28 sadyque wrote:
Dont say build turrets there is always a spot where u can place the observer and cant be seen. Ive seen some replays in a post here where observer+temps pretty much wins the toss game easily.
- see T army at all times and click on feedback from afar. If u set ur temps to feedback from like 100 yards away T cant react in time no matter the APM.
EMP Range> Feedback Range + Ghost Speed>>>Templar Speed = No Problem for Terran. If your Ghosts get feedbacked, your just bad and the Protoss as well, cuz you don't risk a Templar for feedbacking, if you cast a spell with the Templar when Ghosts are around, you'll cast Storm...
On April 13 2010 20:28 sadyque wrote:
- tank+rines drop on LT ridge? no problem just put observer near and blink up
- medivacs thors all can be feedbacked from afar w/o the need of a high APM toss just because u see the T army first.
Okay, You'd need Blink AND Observers, which are two different techroutes, whilst Terran has floating Buildings, medivacs and scans to deal with stuff on the cliff... And Z has Overlords - who has bigger Problems dealing with the new highground-advantage? On LT, Kulas etc. your basically forced to go Robo for Observers and maybe Prisms, just because T can hop up there with a Reaper and snipe you gas... -.-°
On April 13 2010 20:28 sadyque wrote:
- in sc1 u needed an aditional building to make observers and they moved like snails w/o aditional upgrade. In sc2 u just build robotics (core building of P ground army) - in sc1 u build robotics only for shuttle and/or reavers with adiitional buildings needed.
That's true, but Observers cost a lot of Gas in SC2, besides - you don't always wanna go for an extremely early robo...
But all of your complaints can be traced back not to imbalance between the races, but a very flawed and easily abusable High-ground-mechanic... It's just sooo annoying and doesn't require skill.
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There is a issue with the immortal, idk how to fix it, but its certainly something
Only TvP i win is where the toss messes up 
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Ghosts any1?... Always the terrans whining :D.
Also if we are talking about making stuff upgrades why do ghosts start out with emp? Thats like hts starting with storm...
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Everytime I scan, I die a little inside.
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On April 13 2010 21:11 Technique wrote:
Ghosts any1?... Always the terrans whining :D.
Also if we are talking about making stuff upgrades why do ghosts start out with emp? Thats like hts starting with storm...
I know - I've said that like a hundred times in this thread already and atm, I basically win every game against T if there is no Ghost on the field and I loose almost every game when the opponent chooses to go for one or more Ghosts. -.-°
It's like some Terrans forget that there is sth that completely rips apart Immortals hardened shield and makes then extremely vulnerable to Marauders or anything else....
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EPT
