EPT[H] TvP - The Immortal Problem. - Page 8
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L
Canada4732 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
I usually use one scan if my scout scv doesn't get enough info. From that I can figure out if he's going mass warpgate or has a robo, but I can't tell if it's drops, immortal push, or just obs into expo. I do feel like terran has issues resolving protoss builds, but that's nothing to do with the observer. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
Now both Toss and zerg have cheaper/better forms of scouting. In sc1 PvT, Toss to make a robo then observator exclusively for observers. They rarely built any other robo units. That was a huge tech sidestep, but still worth it. Zerg overlord speed upgrade is now cheaper and they now have the other cheap option of changlings. Both P and Z gets better scouting, but T gets far far worse scouting. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On April 13 2010 06:43 link0 wrote: Make scan 25 energy. They weren't overpowered in sc1 at 25. lol Scouting isn't the issue. It's managing to be able to hold off the immortal push and get an expo or holding a FE vs the immortal push. | ||
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Niteo
United States28 Posts
On April 13 2010 05:47 AncienTs wrote: just theorycrafting (unless a protoss player would like to test with me) but if going very early eng +1 infantry weap + early stim instead of ghosts helps at all with anything... i'm SeaL.arfarf on sc2 beta I actually tried this and it worked successfully. I was on a 6 game losing streak against P(kept going for early tank pushes that just got steamrolled) when I decided during a specific TvP on Steppes of War to go heavy marines with banshee support. I'm in gold league and I can't really say how proficient my P opponent was but they were slightly favored so I'm assuming high gold/low plat? Not sure. My army composition was about 4-5 marines to one marauder. I also got both gas at around 15 food and I actually got ghosts later than I should have. I got a lucky scan off that revealed a robobay just warping in which was a counter to my marine mass that he found with his observer. I attacked at 10 minutes with 18 marines, 4 marauders, stim, +1 weapon upgrade, and a ghost that just got emp while on the walk to his base. I wanted to attack before the collosi showed up. While on my way I wanted to try banshee support so I began building 2 starports. He had a warp prism, 5 zealots, 3 immortals, 2 stalkers, and 3 sentries defending his expansion at the natural. I emp'd 2 immortals, zealot, and a stalker because I think I surprised him. I could've micro'd a bit better but I won the battle with 6 marines, 2 marauders, and a ghost to spare, with reinforcements on the way. From there I just took out all his pylons. I tried something new this time around too. My first barracks I made a tech lab after about 2 marines. At about 20-22 food I made 2 more barracks but instead of immediately making reactors on both for my mass marine army I decided to just make marines flat out from them. I did this for two reasons. 1)A reactor takes 50 seconds to make. You can have 2 marines by the time a reactor finishes. 2)You can't produce a unit from a building developing an attachment. This kicks in to your early game productivity. It isn't until a good minute after making the reactor core attachment that the productivity will get ahead of a single barracks with no attachment. I feel this is bad for early game. You have mules that bring in a large load of minerals. An early marine attack build might benefit more from just making more barracks rather than not being able to continually produce marines for 50 seconds. I would really like the opportunity to test the idea and see if reactors actually cuts in to early game productivity or its just mental but unfortunately I'm not the best at theorycrafting. When I accidentally became supply blocked at around 45 or so food I added the reactor cores. I couldn't really test the banshee support because I only had about 2 banshees as part of my reinforcements. My build is not fined tuned either, for example, with better build time refinements an earlier attack could be made or medivacs could be mixed in. I always try to win my TvPs in under 15 minutes. If I don't I almost always lose to P from experience. | ||
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Mnemic
Botswana80 Posts
On April 13 2010 06:43 link0 wrote: Make scan 25 energy. They weren't overpowered in sc1 at 25. Now both Toss and zerg have cheaper/better forms of scouting. In sc1 PvT, Toss to make a robo then observator exclusively for observers. They rarely built any other robo units. That was a huge tech sidestep, but still worth it. Zerg overlord speed upgrade is now cheaper and they now have the other cheap option of changlings. Both P and Z gets better scouting, but T gets far far worse scouting. I think this is just one of many factors which make T hard to play (vs toss). Toss can chrono boost his army production, tech research and probe production => better income. Terran needs to choose carefuly betwen mule and scan. There si also the map factor. No matter what tactic u use, bio or mech, toss can always split ur army which ,combined with narrow chokes, is devastating for T (and for Z too). Toss has fantastic spellcasters, sentry and HT. Both very useful (and used) vs T and Z. Yeah, T has the gost which is usefull vs toss for his EMP (nuke, maybe) but vs Z its not used at all. Raven? huh...watched a lot of replays and its hardly used. I've been trying mech lately and its hard to play (very hard on smaller maps). I would like some more unit and strategy diversity with T. Right now i have the feeling that T is always searching for the holy grail tactic. hf | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
On April 13 2010 07:00 Niteo wrote: I always try to win my TvPs in under 15 minutes. If I don't I almost always lose to P from experience. That's a pretty bad dynamic :/ | ||
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Fallen
Canada192 Posts
He surprised me going for a quick attack without immortals but I still survived that without much loss. You can note in the few battles how sentries and zealot pretty much evaporated at the start of the fights. I had him on the defensive for a big part of the game -- my macro slipped at a point but the game was pretty much over. We're gonna play some more games later tonight and i'll post all of them in this thread -- win or loss. [url blocked] | ||
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Toolshed
337 Posts
On April 13 2010 06:28 L wrote: Still looking for replays of someone going 2 rax into thor. DeMuslim/White-Ra had lag issues and frankly none of the games were good. Okay, I just tried this. Does not seem to be viable at all. You are forced to camp in your base all day long. Moving out means you are open to drops and Thors need years to walk. Problems that occured with this build: a) Supply heavy. 1 Thor (6 Sup) + 2 Marauder (2x2 Sup) = 1 Depot. This is freaking huge because 1 cycle of only 3 units = 1 Depot. You need to build supply depots nonstop to not get supply blocked which means you in the end fall behind. Constant WBF production not even included. b) Immobility. You can never push out. Moving out means you are open to drops and counterattacks.It's impossible to ever get mapcontrol. c) Thor vs Immortal is a waste of money. Once a Obs is in your base you are on a run that you never will catch up. Heavy costs + much longer build time + more supply means that P has twice as much Immortals than you can have Thors. d) Fucked up timing. There is basicly no timing window where you can make use of your thors. You can't push out with few Thors + Marauders because Thors start with 50 Energy (lol ...). I looked it up, a Thor needs exactly 1 min and 30 sec to make use of his 250 mm after he popped up. In the same time a P can produce 3 (!) chrono boosted Immortals. e) camping is not an option. You might think that sitting in your base or expanding after a few thors might be an option ... it's not. a) + c) + d) means that you are always behind in supply and P can just push you whenever he likes. tldr version: No mapcontrol, heavy cost and supply problems, open to drops and counter attacks, low energy (= no 250 mm) and being outmacroed easily makes this not viable at all. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 13 2010 07:56 Fallen wrote: heres a replay vs a top 10 plat toss( since floophead told me he wouldnt waste time playing me). He surprised me going for a quick attack without immortals but I still survived that without much loss. You can note in the few battles how sentries and zealot pretty much evaporated at the start of the fights. I had him on the defensive for a big part of the game -- my macro slipped at a point but the game was pretty much over. We're gonna play some more games later tonight and i'll post all of them in this thread -- win or loss. [url blocked] Since I do feel that I at least owe an objective look I'm watching the replay now. I will edit my response here after I'm done. I didn't even watch the full game because that protoss was pretty bad. His attack should haev killed you but he spent time shooting at a bunker he could've walked by, never used a force field, and let his zealots die because of bad control. He also didn't spread his stalkers at all after seeing like 6 reapers kill his probe. That player was really really stupid and the game proves very little other than you can beat bad people with it. A good player will know what's up and go straight to colossus off 1 gate and kill you. Good luck killing colossus/stalker with anything out of the barracks. If you can find a really convincing game where protoss doesn't make any massive errors then plz post away. Until then I hold my assumption that that build is garbage. | ||
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MezmerizePLZ
United States30 Posts
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
philibird.hed that goes for any1 if u want to practice TvP strats/or anything rele also note brat.ok did a new TvP strat in zotac #7, marauder/marine with fast raven/medivac. ghost around 50 food. ravens nullifies observers and point defense drone is a good counter to stalkers not sure if it works against immortal. worked vs a player named chobo but im not familiar with him. its really hard to know if different strats actually work or if the players who they work against are messing up. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
You won't know that any discussion about anything here is any good until you try something out for yourself and do your best to modify it and make it work. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On April 13 2010 09:26 Bibdy wrote: There's no such thing as a really convincing game. I don't think there's ever been an occasion in the history of internet-arguments where someone goes "See! Here's proof!" that the other guy looked at it and was convinced of anything. People always have a preconceived notion and see what they want to see when they look at these things, picking at whatever little details they can spot to invalidate the argument. You won't know that any discussion about anything here is any good until you try something out for yourself and do your best to modify it and make it work. Dude, you speak so much truth... now get the hell out of the strategy forum! | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On April 13 2010 08:45 Toolshed wrote: Okay, I just tried this. Does not seem to be viable at all. You are forced to camp in your base all day long. Moving out means you are open to drops and Thors need years to walk. Problems that occured with this build: a) Supply heavy. 1 Thor (6 Sup) + 2 Marauder (2x2 Sup) = 1 Depot. This is freaking huge because 1 cycle of only 3 units = 1 Depot. You need to build supply depots nonstop to not get supply blocked which means you in the end fall behind. Constant WBF production not even included. b) Immobility. You can never push out. Moving out means you are open to drops and counterattacks.It's impossible to ever get mapcontrol. c) Thor vs Immortal is a waste of money. Once a Obs is in your base you are on a run that you never will catch up. Heavy costs + much longer build time + more supply means that P has twice as much Immortals than you can have Thors. d) Fucked up timing. There is basicly no timing window where you can make use of your thors. You can't push out with few Thors + Marauders because Thors start with 50 Energy (lol ...). I looked it up, a Thor needs exactly 1 min and 30 sec to make use of his 250 mm after he popped up. In the same time a P can produce 3 (!) chrono boosted Immortals. e) camping is not an option. You might think that sitting in your base or expanding after a few thors might be an option ... it's not. a) + c) + d) means that you are always behind in supply and P can just push you whenever he likes. tldr version: No mapcontrol, heavy cost and supply problems, open to drops and counter attacks, low energy (= no 250 mm) and being outmacroed easily makes this not viable at all. A - for 6 population, the only thing that will do more damage than a thor are 2 tanks in siege mode B - You're not supposed to push out until you macro up a better army. Going thor is for securing expos, not for killing protoss/map control. Use other units for that. C - If you are defending with thors, then you are able to take advantage of travel time. You're able to get out 2 thors before 3 immortals will come to your base, even with chrono. The other stuff melts to bunkers w/ marauders or marines. D - Who said anything about pushing out with thors? Whole point is to secure expos and mass a better army. You FE with this build, not attack -_- E - Camping is an option. With thors for immortals and MM/sieged tanks for everything else, then you can repel almost anything the toss throws at you. Being behind on supply is fine if you are defending. P can't push whenever he likes because if he loses his army he's going to be screwed when I take the map and get more expansions. Don't misuse the build. It's a solely defensive build and you're not supposed to attack with it. The whole purpose of it is so you can mass a huge army, not to build up the strongest army in the shortest amount of time. | ||
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datachild
United States12 Posts
First off becaues of Terran's opener it's very difficult against a protoss to do any other build order than plyon->gateway->plyon->cybernetic->gas. We need Stalkers off the bat just incase of a Reaper. Then we need immortals to survive against Mauraders and there is a window of timeof vunerability for protoss until his first Immortal appears. Also ghosts completely counter the Immortals. I can't believe just one nerf to Mauraders caused this rage against Immortals. It's extremely funny that Terran can 10 rack owned Protoss because of the imbalances pre-patch and now I hear these things. Learn to adapt and play the game. It is getting more balanced and Protoss has plenty of other issues they have to worry about. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
It is not that Terran mech has ever been weak, it's a problem with the immortal being too strong for what it does, it's cost, and it's hardened shield + damage to armored (hard counter idiocy in SC2 that browder+dev team have slowly been weeding out thank god). I've played countless ghost mech games, the difficulty is establishing a position, map control, and how strong immortals are even after you have EMP'd them. I've played games where I managed to defend good, get ghost mech rolling with hellion harrass, and steamroll after that and it would make the immortal look like a useless piece of trash unit. but on the other side of the coin, and more so lately, I have played similar games where Protoss are still doing a x2-x4 warpgate/robo immortal aggressiveness that denies you your expo unless you get 5-6 bunkers, and then they have complete map control, and on maps with stupid CnC gold minerals you will autolose to their economy. just the action of your opponent making an immortal negates your entire Terran unit combination/tech tree. Just 1-2 immortals out there, and now you 100% must have EMP, micro it perfectly, and even then, now that players realized how imbalanced immortals are vs T, they will have 7-10+ immortals and a massive ball of random units (they can literally build anything, mass zealots/stalkers/sentry whatever) and they don't care if you get 100% perfect EMP's off, your army is dead due to the high damage of immortals. And if you missed EMP's or didn't have any, they are even more than happy with their too strong immortal.  People that think they are not a problem really have no idea right now, or are way too optimistic that Terrans magically will try something inspirational with what we have already. There is nothing that has not been done already. you have marauder/medivac/marine bio mass with EMP, which is not that effective vs good protoss anymore. immortals stomp on that quite hard with forcefield abuse too. you have airmech, using heavy amounts of banshees, but good P can survive this as well, or do heavy damage to you b4 you get it going. you have ghost mech, which apparently many T still do not like trying. Well, I admit it is tricky to get running. when you have so many good players doing all of these things to counter 1 unit, and still losing massive amounts of games, it's safe to say the immortal is imbalanced. basically, hardened shield needs to be an upgrade as well, much like they did to the marauder's rapeshells. it's a combination of it being too hard a counter, doing mega damage to armored, and all the while being semi-invincible at the same time. it's OP yes. edit: oh, and thors suck vs immortals in an army. yay, you cannon'd one, what are you going to do about the other 5? lol | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 13 2010 11:07 Feefee wrote: If a protoss stomps your marauder/medivac/marine bio mass with EMP by using FORCEFIELD abuse then you're doing something horribly wrong^^;. Last I checked EMP removed all energy from units and had a range of 10 (at least according to the sc2 data files and other people). Do you have 30 EMP's that all instantaneously and perfectly get off on every single unit on your screen immediately? No. | ||
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BigOleDonkey
United States43 Posts
On April 13 2010 10:45 datachild wrote: LOL this is the funniest stuff I heard. Learn to adapt and play the game. It is getting more balanced and Protoss has plenty of other issues they have to worry about. The real funny stuff is how so many protoss keep posting this but yet mysteriously cannot seem to produce any replays of the terran winning versus this immortal timing build, without the protoss making huge mistakes to cost himself the game. It really doesn't seem like that tall of an order. Not many protoss really perfected this timing build prepatch because super early aggressive marauder play would kill them. Now that got nerfed, and many more protoss have really fine tuned this build. I mean at this point I would be happy with any replays that have the terran getting to a 1 expansion versus 1 expansion midgame scenario without being ridiculously behind. Even if the terran ultimately lost the game PAST that point, I'd be happy with that. | ||
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