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On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
Completely agree, a single unit locking out an entire building worth of units is pretty ridiculous. The Shields need to be researched for a hefty cost at the Robotics bay and their +damage needs to be reduced to 25+10
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On April 13 2010 04:22 Khadgars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ... Completely agree, a single unit locking out an entire building worth of units is pretty ridiculous. The Shields need to be researched for a hefty cost at the Robotics bay and their +damage needs to be reduced to 25+10
They should NOT get +damage to armored from upgrades, either. I think it's silly that immortals come with hardened shields and sentry come with force field (which breaks the game COMPLETELY used in mass quantities) and guardian shield, but Z and T have to pay for every ability individually with hefty costs and build times.
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div 8 plat terran user here:
imo... generally building 2~3 ghosts early before expansion is a safe start against the immortal push timing...
however protoss robo -> drop transition -> mid-game DT is troublesome
is that what the main gripe is about?
imo 1 rax FE should not be an option for terran, because bioball vikings off 4 gas pretty much shuts down protoss mid-game (now that is an imbalance)
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Hey, Floophead_III made a reasonable OP, presented a problem and posted replays to support his cause.
So why someone of you who disagree doesn't post some replays to counter it? It couldn't be that hard, right? Yet I didn't see any...
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So immortal hardened shields on robo bay anyone?
I'm actually ok with the damage because tanks also hit ridiculously hard from much farther away with splash. I'm just not happy about having to rush ghosts before I can peek out from behind my wall. It'd also make it clear when someone is just going robo for obs/prism. Right now it could be just for obs or also immortals and there's no indication of which. Immortals require a very specific game plan and army composition to fight right now, and if you do that and they go obs for blink stalkers you'll lose, or if they see you turtle and just expo away, you'll lose.
In addition losing hardened shields early will help zerg defend with crawlers better, and roaches/hydra will do slightly better vs immortals.
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Get 5-6 nitro boosted reapers, harass and dont lose them to nothing.
Proceed to make the barrack units that counter his army the best. Win the game, rinse and repeat.
Stalkers heavy? make moar marauders
Immortal heavy? make one or two ghosts along with marauders and marines with extra minerals/barrack time.
Zealots/sentries/stalker/immortal mix? some more reapers, get a good ratio of marauder to reapers and probably a ghost.
All you theorycrafter needs to start playing the game some. That will help.
and oh yea, it has probably been said before but opening mech in a immortal heavy metagame is retarded.
Also 12 rax "economical" builds really blows. Get those reapers out earlier and get that orbital command faster. Dont block your choke if you open reapers.
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He makes 1 stalker and stops your harass. He makes 2 colossi while expanding for free because reapers can't do anything with stalkers out. You just lost the game.
When players like Louder and Antimage and Mesmerize are saying TvP is broken, it's broken.
You're basically saying cheese reapers and hope that toss screws up which is not a viable way to play this game.
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once again, the ONLY people who disagree are NOT terran players, dont play beta, OR are not high ranked terran players.
no one has yet given any ANSWER as to how we are to handle immortal push. the #1 strat that most ppl will agree with is 2 rax tech lab 1 rax reactor, mm +ghost+stim. we have already discussed the problems with that, and even when perfectly executed and with superior micro, you may break even with the toss.
our only answer currently is to outplay the toss. i like the hellion idea but most of the time i dont get a factory (think 3 rax build) so u wouldnt have hellions anyways. so if u do a less superior build say fighting marines/tank vs toss means u cannot siege. zealots get to your marine line and if you arent constantly microing your siege tanks your marines will get blow up along with the zealots. you cant run cuz ur in siege mode, include forcefields and its a do or die situation. sure we could play without siege but then why the hell would get siege tanks. we wouldnt.
what we are asking is WHAT beats immortal push. what is the HARD counter to it, everything in this game should have a hard counter. answer that. a hard counter should have a advantage over what its countering. imo, terran doesnt have that vs toss immortal push. neither does zerg. therefore the problem is protoss.
and protoss is not even forced to go robo, its just cheaper/requires less teching. toss is still effective with 4 gate or twilight tech/templar tech.
reapers, they are a joke. every decent toss goes stalker first and u can only kill 2-3 probes. you cannot harass toss at all basically due to warp gates. its nearly impossible. any decent toss has observers scouting what your doing, if ur dumb enough to try and go for medivacs ur gonna get steam rolled.
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I agree that there really is no answer to the immortal push. If you pump marauder ghost to defend against it, you screw yourself in the late game. If you go banshees to counter it, you screw yourself in the early game.
I usually just go for the marine/banshee and hope they don't push early.
The real problem here is obvious: Terran has no tier 2 vs toss. It's either tier 1 or tier 3, because the immortal completely eliminates the factory.
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People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP.
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On April 13 2010 00:39 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 00:36 sysrpl wrote:
How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers. How about this, protoss gets a colossus. Seriously, do you even think through what you post before you post it? If anyone has a standard, noncheese opening which puts you in an even or better position midgame, please let me hear it.
I think this post highlights the exact problem in this thread^^;. I don't think anyone's arguing that an immortal push is unstoppable by the terran. Or at least I hope nobody is, because it's seriously not that hard to stop.
But when I hear stuff like "I can't go marines because toss will get colossus!" or "a zealot/sentry/immortal midgame ball will kill marauders"! all I can say is "right...and?".
If the protoss tech switches on you or starts to mix up units to specifically counter what the terran has, then why on earth SHOULDN'T that be effective? This stuff is working as intended!
If he techs to colossus you can tech to viking. or heck you can actually try siege tanks now since you have a sizeable marine army in that above scenario. Or you can switch to heavy marauder/ghost since he stopped immortal production. And marauder/ghost/medivac also completely rolls over a zealot/sentry/immortal ball unless you can't figure out how to EMP sentries and immortals. and EMP'ed sentry is an expensive paperweight against mgm.
Seriously^^; First it's "we can't fight off immortaaals", then people tell you to try unit comps and you come back with "but if he builds something else, our army can't fight thaaaat". It's a strategy game... start using strategy. I hear scouting helps with decision making
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Thors don't spawn with the ability and that thor is not going to be out in time for that push i don't think. I will try it later though and if it's successful I'll post replays. Another big issue with the thor is mobility. Defending drops with that thing is a nightmare, so you'd really have to play amazing vs drops.
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On April 13 2010 05:15 Prozen wrote:
People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP.
A smart toss wouldn't push out versus a quick thor...
and you can't push out with 2-3 thors though, you will need much more as toss will be getting sentry/zeal/stalker/immortals en masse, and you'll be sacrificing map control as you have no mobility.
so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Grats, you still lose. Granted, only Gretorp has gone thor against me and done decently, but the answer can't be to just blindly rush thor every game.
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On April 13 2010 05:22 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:15 Prozen wrote:
People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP. A smart toss wouldn't push out versus a quick thor... and you can't push out with 2-3 thors though, you will need much more as toss will be getting sentry/zeal/stalker/immortals en masse, and you'll be sacrificing map control as you have no mobility. so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Grats, you still lose. Granted, only Gretorp has gone thor against me and done decently, but the answer can't be to just blindly rush thor every game.
Hey get your butt on bnet/vent and lets try some freaking thor builds lol
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On April 13 2010 05:25 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:22 Antimage wrote:On April 13 2010 05:15 Prozen wrote:
People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP. A smart toss wouldn't push out versus a quick thor... and you can't push out with 2-3 thors though, you will need much more as toss will be getting sentry/zeal/stalker/immortals en masse, and you'll be sacrificing map control as you have no mobility. so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Grats, you still lose. Granted, only Gretorp has gone thor against me and done decently, but the answer can't be to just blindly rush thor every game. Hey get your butt on bnet/vent and lets try some freaking thor builds lol
I am at work ^^
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so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Uh. Do you have any reps showing this? I'd love to see how a one base timing push which is repelled outmacros a defensive expansion.
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On April 13 2010 05:19 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 00:39 Floophead_III wrote:On April 13 2010 00:36 sysrpl wrote:
How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers. How about this, protoss gets a colossus. Seriously, do you even think through what you post before you post it? If anyone has a standard, noncheese opening which puts you in an even or better position midgame, please let me hear it. I think this post highlights the exact problem in this thread^^;. I don't think anyone's arguing that an immortal push is unstoppable by the terran. Or at least I hope nobody is, because it's seriously not that hard to stop. But when I hear stuff like "I can't go marines because toss will get colossus!" or "a zealot/sentry/immortal midgame ball will kill marauders"! all I can say is "right...and?". If the protoss tech switches on you or starts to mix up units to specifically counter what the terran has, then why on earth SHOULDN'T that be effective? This stuff is working as intended! If he techs to colossus you can tech to viking. or heck you can actually try siege tanks now since you have a sizeable marine army in that above scenario. Or you can switch to heavy marauder/ghost since he stopped immortal production. And marauder/ghost/medivac also completely rolls over a zealot/sentry/immortal ball unless you can't figure out how to EMP sentries and immortals. and EMP'ed sentry is an expensive paperweight against mgm. Seriously^^; First it's "we can't fight off immortaaals", then people tell you to try unit comps and you come back with "but if he builds something else, our army can't fight thaaaat". It's a strategy game... start using strategy. I hear scouting helps with decision making
Because, Feefee, tech switches are not cheap for terran. If we go marauder ghost to counter an early immortal push, we are committed to marauder ghost for a while because it's gas heavy. We can't easily switch to vikings. We have to build a factory and a starport. Now if we go marines early we can get to vikings by the time you have colossi, but then we die to an early immortal push.
Our buildings also require addons. I can't just switch midgame from marauders // ghosts to marines because I'll need reactors to produce a sizeable amount of marines.
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On April 13 2010 05:26 L wrote:Show nested quote +so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Uh. Do you have any reps showing this? I'd love to see how a one base timing push which is repelled outmacros a defensive expansion.
the only way for terr to expo is defensively. a one base timing push can easily transition into out expanding a turtle terran. we've already agreed that fast expanding isnt really an option anymore.
i just want to see some tourny games from luci/demuslim fighting off an immortal push.
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dApollo says tvp is broken!
The thor build that demuslim used vs whitera, even though in lag, looked horrible? Game on Stepples, white-ra just got his natural and got like 7-8immortals out theres no way that demuslims 3-4thors were gunna do anything vs that...
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On April 13 2010 05:26 L wrote:Show nested quote +so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Uh. Do you have any reps showing this? I'd love to see how a one base timing push which is repelled outmacros a defensive expansion.
I don't dedicate myself to a one base timing push. I use the advantage of the immortal rush to gain map control, and (hopefully) do sufficient damage - like I said in one of my above posts.
I would see the thor, and just not engage the terran player. Since he teched up quickly and sac'ed some economy, I pull ahead, get a 2nd robo and get stalkers/zealots/sentries/immortals, while getting my 1st and 2nd expo (while he's stuck defending his one b/c of lack of mobility).
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EPT
