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On April 13 2010 00:45 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 00:41 Ghostcom wrote:
Perhaps it is more of a problem that toss only has one tech tree available to them in PvT than terran not having one available to them in the early game? Idk, that might just be me...
Sure templar tech is "viable" it just isn't as strong as robo early game which is also why mech doesn't work early game, and if your enemy decides to make a push before you get storm and he isn't a retard who mules like a maniac but actually saves up 50 measly energy to scan for DTs, what are you going to do as toss? The forcing of tech goes both ways... Alright, well assuming that we accept having no mech opening option in TvP, we're still forced to open bio, which means protoss can readily go for colossi and completely wreck us. We're forced into a losing game, which doesn't make sense. Protoss on the other hand, is forced to go robo. So they go robotics and... win? I don't see how they can complain. It's only forced into robotics because it's a free win vs terran. If robotics wasn't so ludicrously strong, we'd see more twilight or even stargate openings (though tbh stargate sucks).
If you go twilight how would you stop a push before storm if your enemy is wise enough to bring detection? Protoss don't go robo because they want free win, they, just like terrans go bio, go robo not to lose to an early push.
Oh and EMP somehow makes the entire "losing" game argument pretty void... Just like a protoss needs to storm properly (note storms are actually dodgeable - and no, I wouldn't want it any other way) to win, perhaps it wouldn't be too much to ask for terran having to EMP properly?
And I find it hard to believe that a terran can't get 1-2 vikings out before the protoss get's a collossi, at least the guys I play always seems to get it or very close to when I get my collossi, but I could of course be mistaken.
And unless you do something seriously to the stargate units, you could remove both templar and robo tech, and you still wouldn't see it use vs terran - it is THAT shit outside of cheese situations or carriers (which are in fact, also shit atm, unless fighting BCs and which point they are almost decent and then the drunkard finally finds the IMMA CHARGING MY FIREBALL BUTTON and you look at all the blue smoke thinking "crap, my chances would've been better with mass stalkers with blink" /rant about stargate ended)
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On April 13 2010 00:57 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 23:34 Ghostcom wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ... You mean like the Thor denies mutas, how the effing marine denies P air up until the equivalent of BCs? Yeah, good thing the immortal is the only unit in game that makes an entire tech tree unfeaseable against a certain race... And those t1-T1,5 units are the only thing you use right? Because medivacs, ghosts (with an EMP that totally rapes immortals and is very good against all Ps units), vikings and banshees aren't used in PvT at all... So many terrans are neglecting the ghosts undogdeable EMP when they are talking about immortals that it isn't even funny. If you want to "balance" a game, at least have a little bit of perspective and see what the suggested nerfs to the immortal would do to the 2 relevant MUs: 1) Let's make hardend shields researchable: TvP: Sup marauder all-in rush ZvP: sup mass roaches are back in the game (yeah you try holding off all-in roaches with any combination of zeal/sentry/stalker and tell me how that goes) 2) Let's make the immortal into a purely tanking unit: Both MUs: the retards might go "lol hey I'll go shoot on this unit specifically designed to tank which deals 0 damage while his zeals/sentry/stalkers rapes me", but let's face it - most people are in fact in equipped with something called a brain and would target fire the low hp but high dps units first and then proceed to kill the immortals later. Please note that this isn't because I'm against a mech buff, I just don't think that the immortal warrants a nerf only because terrans wants to go mech. If you want to make mech more viable, buff mech. In fact, I'm very much for more tech options, just like I would like to see some air options for toss which doesn't involve heavy cheese and is countered by 200/400 minerals worth of tier 1 units (god I miss D-web). Let the flame about "first post" begin... Ah, just wanted to add that it is true that Thors counter Mutas. One unit counters another unit, no problem. I'd be a problem if the Thor would be able to kill every flying unit a Z has (including broodlords) because thats what the immortal does to Terrans. Killing Mech. Also think about how long it takes to get a Thor and an Immortal. With CB you can have immortals like INSTANT!  Not gonna talk about P air coz everyone knows that it sucks  although I disagree that a marine counters every Stargate Unit. But it'd be a little bit too much if P would have ground AND air dominance, wouldn't it?
Which of the phoenix/void ray is it that the marine doesn't counter? (you might want to note that carriers are in fact, the equivalent to BCs )
And the thor has a range of 10, which flying unit is it that it doesn't counter? BL got a range of 9, so get a meatwall to take care of the broodlings coupled with some thors in the background and (while I haven't tested it, games never went to the BL stage) I'm pretty sure you'll see that thors do in fact rape said BL - I know that you don't get the +4 dmg because of the armor type on the BL, but in a tight situation I'm pretty sure thors will still pull out ahead.
Anyway, if you want to argue that the thor is "only" a softcounter to BLs, the same could be said for immortals vs thors using their 250mm canons to oneshot and stun the immortals.
And I'm obviously not asking for ground and air dominance, as you say it would idd be too much, but I would like to be able to do something vs banshee harass when we are both on 3+ bases - stalkers simply just don't cut it, their mobility is simply not enough (or else I suck, which I totally won't rule out as a possibility )
And whilst the CB does indeed speed up the production of immortals, this is hardly relevant in early game as CB are usually being spent on warp-gate, scouts, nexus's (wtf, is the pleuaral form, nexi?) or the robo bay, and later I would much rather build a collossi than an immortal. And tbh, if you think that a unit is OP because toss players can use their macro mechanic on it, I think we are at a point where this discussion is fruitless (I mean, would you also argue that the BL is OP due to the queens ability to puke larvae?)
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Stop talking. You said CB isn't spent on immortals. CB is only spent on immortals. That's the point. You can get 50% more immortals if you CB them, and that's too much for any terran to handle.
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On April 13 2010 01:33 Floophead_III wrote:
Stop talking. You said CB isn't spent on immortals. CB is only spent on immortals. That's the point. You can get 50% more immortals if you CB them, and that's too much for any terran to handle.
The "usually" should've been a mostly - my bad. And I would rather be able to build immortals from 2 bays with the odd chrono + a fully saturated expo, than from one with constant chrono. And perhaps you want to stop massing marauders and actually build a ghost or two - it seems to work out fine...
See, I can also make 1 line retarded points.
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Clearly you watched the replays. I massed a grand total of 0 marauders there.
The more I think about it, the more protoss has an advantage. Even if I turtle up and manage to secure an expo, I'd have to get marines, tanks, siege, ghosts, turrets, and THEN expand with a likely PF at the expo. What keeps protoss from going robo bay into expo, or even double expo. Unless I get lucky and scout it and manage to convert my turtle into an allin instantly, I'm screwed. Not to mention there's no sign of immortals vs just an observer. You HAVE to prepare for immortals AND immortal drops. =/
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If your attitude towards scouting something that early in the game is "luck" I think you might want to reconsider how you scout, seriously. Kulas ravine with an expo at the rocks be might hard to scout (as in you won't see the actual expo - but his BO should tell you a thing or 2), but what other map is it hard to scout an FE on?
And yes, sometimes to scout, you WILL have to use scan instead of mulewhoring.
Anyway, I think the answers you were looking for were all present after page 3 (with replays), so let's stop it here
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I tried the Thor build that imBLIND used yesterday. I managed to BARELY live, then I went Medivacs + Marines + Marauders, massed up, and pushed. He was off one base while I already expoed so I managed to win. I think this build will work.
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Everyone should watch the series cauthonluck played against Orb in the most recent MLG Showcase series cauthon took it 4-0 and used MMM effectively (Good Banshee harassment as well) in just about every game to take the series
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I haven't played a ton of games since the patch, but i've had pretty good success with 1 rax reactor FE + rine pump and 'mass' bunkering my choke. Then adding 2-3 racks and teching to viking+medivac asap to deal with collosi.
Terran is definitely at a disadvantage in this mu, it'll be interesting to see next patch notes.
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On April 13 2010 02:15 Prozen wrote:
I tried the Thor build that imBLIND used yesterday. I managed to BARELY live, then I went Medivacs + Marines + Marauders, massed up, and pushed. He was off one base while I already expoed so I managed to win. I think this build will work.
lol but it still worked!
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Calgary25998 Posts
On April 12 2010 11:25 Zanno wrote:
I saw a game on Chill's stream, in which he went mech knowing full well the opponent would go Immortal, and he almost held the attack off. What I don't understand though, is why he would siege, if all attacks against an Immortal do 10 damage. If he did not siege, his tanks would have had a faster rate of fire, and would have been doing a lot more damage than they were. I didn't see the final hitpoints on the P player's last two immortals, but the fight appeared ridiculously close. Splash damage did not appear to be helping him.
If a player like Chill is siegeing in the face of an ability like that, I can't help but assume that all players are doing so. I could understand him siegeing some of his tanks, to pick off the Sentries faster, but to siege the entire army, didn't make sense to me, unless I really don't understand how the ability works.
I'm not trying to say that there isn't a problem, I'm just trying to say that perhaps not immediately investing in Siege Tech might help to counter the initial immortal push, if siege tech does nothing against them. Keeping your tanks sieged as often as possible has become of a bit of an instinct, but when facing an enemy who takes damage purely on based on the cooldown of the attack, perhaps it is not wise.
I think you can live the first attack and have EMP in time for the second one. The timing is very tight though.
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On April 13 2010 02:56 imBLIND wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 02:15 Prozen wrote:
I tried the Thor build that imBLIND used yesterday. I managed to BARELY live, then I went Medivacs + Marines + Marauders, massed up, and pushed. He was off one base while I already expoed so I managed to win. I think this build will work. lol but it still worked!
But I don't know, I think you can expand safely, but you need EMP to safely push out, because your army count will be low. I won once with it, lost once with it.
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Platinum Protoss player here. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. EMP is the one thing I fear most in games. It is so easy to get and so effective. It may be countered by feedback but there is a significant time between when the ghost gets out and when high templars come.
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Wow.. almost literally nothing changes from the last patch when TvP mean watching Rockit Black Guys roll over protoss in droves, and now the Terran are ready to burst into tears over immortals?
Seriously guys, if the immortal wasn't as power as it is right now, we'd loose to marauder cheese every single game without question. Immos are the only answer we have to marauders at the early-mid game, and as we should be well-aware by now: MARAUDERS ARE STILL MORE EFFICIENT AND WILL STRAIT UP KILL THEM COST FOR COST AFTER STIM.
Soo, you have one tech tree that's "shut down," by immos. Thor might lack mobility, but it out-ranges the immo by 2 with the 250mm, so you cannot say that it's impossible to get off from behind a wall of RBGs. Factory being a stupid idea vs. immo spam is fine. Do you think we get to build any starport units after terrans produce a few vikings? Hell no we don't. We get absolutely creamed by vikings in anything from a phoenix to a mothership.
So, let's not forget in all this QQ, that we're playing essentially the same PvT as last patch, without the cheese marauder open. It wasn't impossible for T then, and it certainly isn't impossible now. If i'm not mistaken QXC defeated a few notable protoss in the same tourney that Huk cleaned his clock.
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On April 13 2010 02:43 sikatrix wrote:
I haven't played a ton of games since the patch, but i've had pretty good success with 1 rax reactor FE + rine pump and 'mass' bunkering my choke. Then adding 2-3 racks and teching to viking+medivac asap to deal with collosi.
Terran is definitely at a disadvantage in this mu, it'll be interesting to see next patch notes.
This is also what I have been doing, except I double rax instead of reactor. I also get a PF up with bunkers. This swings the pressure on toss because he will either try to push your exp and get owned by bunkers & PF, or expand and tech to coloss.
Once my exp is up I tech to banshees, and get turrets up. turrets will own coloss until they get lance upgrade, and harass with banshees so he doesnt get exp secured. Focus fire stalkers go down fast to banshees.
You can also go MMM w/ghosts and drop harass. Don't underestimate the upgrades for building armor, turret/PF range, and bunker capacity.
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funny how all the terrans complain they cant win massing 2 units only.
And always the same "we cant open mech because of immortal" well "we cant open with anything else but immortal because of marauders"....
So basically we got Terra do diverse its army just like protoss has to, now we only need Zerg to do the same and we have a pretty good game.
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Can someone explain why Ghosts are not the answer to immortals? Is it that players complaining aren't even plat level? Because in my games against Plat Terran, they don't have a problem making a couple ghosts to EMP. I really have no idea how a counter to Immortals shields can be any more direct than a spell that completely eliminates them...
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On April 13 2010 03:53 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Wow.. almost literally nothing changes from the last patch when TvP mean watching Rockit Black Guys roll over protoss in droves,
of course this is wrong.
pre-patch 8 Terran won most of their games against protoss with builds that revolved around marauders starting out with slow:
1. 1 rax marauder FE: this worked because marauders w/slow prevented early harass on your FE. Now that marauders don't start with slow, zealots are WAY stronger v terran in the early game; this build dies to aggressive zealot harass, which will run terran over before shells are finished.
2. fast (proxy) reaper -> marauder: this build worked because reapers forced stalkers, which were then countered by marauders, which could be made immediately after 2-3 reapers, and since they started with slow, they beat stalkers very easily. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build is unable to put any follow-up pressure after the reapers. Before shells are researched, Stalkers > Marauders in small numbers.
3. fast (proxy) marauder: this relied on marauders hitting protoss before immortals came out. It worked because marauders w/slow > stalkers or zealots that early in the game. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build doesn't work for the same reason 1 rax marauder FE doesn't work: you get run over by zealots or zealot/sentry before your shells can benefit you.
None of these 3 builds work anymore, because marauders don't start with slow. You don't seem to recognize that it was a BIG change. Terran was hardest hit on build #1, now terran is struggling to find a build that they can FE with. From what I've seen, MoRRoW has the best FE build, with 1 rax marines -> FE -> MASS shield marines + at least 4 bunkers, and pray toss doesn't attack you before your shield upgrade is done. Even then, zealot/sentry just rapes, force field prevents SCVs from repairing bunkers, and guardian shield basically hard-counters marines.
Now I'm not saying immortals need some kind of nerf yet...just want to point out that patch 8 changed TvP A LOT.
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Drop play rapes any bunker based FE with PF. 1 colossus and warpin means all your marines will die. It's not viable unfortunately.
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EPT
