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On April 12 2010 16:08 PhiliBiRD wrote:
this problem is primarily at high level platinum play, its not JUST the last patch, its that toss has gotten the immortal push down well at the same time. and its not just 1 person saying they are having this problem, its basically every terran I know and everyone on the forums, the ones that disagree are lower level platinum or gold and just havent experienced a strong toss player.
Just watching Huk play this weekend made me want to quit terran. THAT is how you play PvT. Anyone who thinks TvP isn't impossible needs to watch his play.
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On April 12 2010 16:09 Floophead_III wrote:
Just watching Huk play this weekend made me want to quit terran. THAT is how you play PvT. Anyone who thinks TvP isn't impossible needs to watch his play.
Who is Huk, and where is this replay? 1700+ plat protoss have been tearing me a new one these days.
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On April 12 2010 16:16 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 16:09 Floophead_III wrote:
Just watching Huk play this weekend made me want to quit terran. THAT is how you play PvT. Anyone who thinks TvP isn't impossible needs to watch his play. Who is Huk, and where is this replay? 1700+ plat protoss have been tearing me a new one these days.
I don't know if there are any vods, but he totally dominated in the inflow tournament, craftcup (we're not going to talk about the DQ here -_-) and the triple strike cup. I think he's lost to like, 1 terran out of 20? It's ridiculous. TvP is so ridiculous that QXC actually proxy 8 rax reaper rushed him and STILL lost to the immortal push after killing like 8 probes.
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Well alright, I watched all 3 replays, and putting the whole "immortal overpowered" aside, that just was a crappy strategy to go against a toss that goes mass immortal^^;. I mean he practically pumped out pure immortals at the end cause all you had was tanks with a few marines trinkled in. Isn't that exactly the unit combination that the immortal was designed to counter? I don't see how it's surprising in any way that you got your front broken every time when you teched straight to siege tank against a protoss that teched to immortal, the COUNTER unit to a siege tank. Yes you had marines, but rines off of one rax was obviously not enough. I'm not saying the immortal isn't overpowered, but I am saying that no matter how much you nerf the immortal, it should NEVER lose to the army composition you were going for, because hardened shields are in the game to break a siege turtle.
Incidentally, do marines do well against stalkers? I honestly don't know, but at one point 2 marines take an immortal down to half health in replay 2 I think. Or at least a giant chunk of health. Why don't you try an all-marine switch when you see a huge number of immortals instead of trying to expand and adding 2 extra factories for more tanks.
Not saying that's viable, but I AM saying whatever you tried to do was NOT viable versus immortal. You just refused to adjust to your opponent. Although I understand you were testing a build
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floop can u link the huk vs qxc replays?
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+1 on the Huk replays. Even sentry/zealot is pwning Terran these days.
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My success has been found with fast expo+ lots of bunkers pumping guys from 1 rax until you can make banshees and get cloak and then steamroll him over
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my suggestions to do a step in the right direction in TvP balance ( btw im top 20 euro plat player )
- make the immortal only do +30 damage against roach/marauder and NOT against buildings/mech. AND add a 150/150 110 sec to complete research which allow them to do +30 again against all. SO toss still has their good hardcounter unit but not instantly an unit which does too well agaisnt most terran units.
OR
- reduce the immortal attack casting speed. Come on, 50 damage AND normal speed is too much. Make it slow, like tank in siege mode.
OR
- revert marines changes from 2 patch. Make them 20 sec again to train and also revert reactor change. The SCV + marines cheese is just not viable with 45 hp SCV imo. But with more marines early terrans would have a better early/midgame against P and would be in a better shape to fight the overpowered mid game immo push.
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On April 12 2010 16:57 link0 wrote:
+1 on the Huk replays. Even sentry/zealot is pwning Terran these days.
4warpgate rush countered marauder FE even before the patch8
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I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies.
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stil what i said is true. Marine is good counter against Immortal... and no marines dont stand a chance against storms and colossus and i did never say that at all.... read again.. Marines are good against immortals.
They asked what to go against Immortals, and not Immortals + Storms or + Colossus and some obeservers and mothership and blinking stalkers etc, etc.... it was just Immortals they asked for so i made an answer. Marines or Banshee is good against them...
They will tech switch, and you will have to aswell if you wanna survive... thats how it is working..
It´s not a bad choice to go marines against stalkers. But Ghost with EMP is really good against Protoss overall! but i dont know how long it takes to build them. this is just a brainstorm. But i hate the EMP as i am a protoss player.
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On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies.
Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units.
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On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units.
=__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm)
But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals.
I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research.
Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$
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My problem is that I havent been able to find an end game unit comp that actually works. I'm actually pretty good at getting on 3 base and even being ahead of the Protoss In econ. However, I can't find any mix that actually works. Robo units by themselves seem to counter any Terran ground army. I've tried all the bio and mech combos that I can think of including mixing in thors. Rank ~13 plat.
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On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$
There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference.
And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot.
Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed.
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I play all 3 races and I have to say I don't think Terran has EVER been even against Protoss.
Obviously Terran had that ridiculous proxy barracks rush that was an instant-win, or the super fast reapers and more recently very early pressure with mass marauders and ghosts in close positions.
And Terran will continue to be powerful early game due to the Mule advantage.
However on distant positions or in a long game I just don't believe Terran is even with Protoss.
Collsosus/immortal/Zealot/Sentry/stalker create this ball of destruction that an even supply Terran army just has no absoultely no chance against, it's not even close. The sentries tear the Terran army in half, the collosus/templar aoe the crap out of everything and the Zealots clean up.
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On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed.
qft
if going mech doesn't work. don't do it... you wouldn't ever +1 speedlot against a terran in sc1 would you?
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On April 12 2010 21:42 Klive5ive wrote:
I play all 3 races and I have to say I don't think Terran has EVER been even against Protoss.
Obviously Terran had that ridiculous proxy barracks rush that was an instant-win, or the super fast reapers and more recently very early pressure with mass marauders and ghosts in close positions.
And Terran will continue to be powerful early game due to the Mule advantage.
However on distant positions or in a long game I just don't believe Terran is even with Protoss.
Collsosus/immortal/Zealot/Sentry/stalker create this ball of destruction that an even supply Terran army just has no absoultely no chance against, it's not even close. The sentries tear the Terran army in half, the collosus/templar aoe the crap out of everything and the Zealots clean up.
Um... have you ever tried using banshees, vikings, ghosts+EMP & M+M+M?
Just a thought, and I can't believe I'm helping terran players here, but I want this game to be balanced as much as the next guy - please try that out late game and you'll figure out how powerful your air is.
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IMO Immortals are fine, Blizzard just needs to increase their build time a little (like 10-20 secs). It's ridiculous how fast they come out with chronoboost. Protoss will be OK vs roaches with stalkers even if immortals come out a few seconds later.
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On April 12 2010 22:03 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:42 Klive5ive wrote:
I play all 3 races and I have to say I don't think Terran has EVER been even against Protoss.
Obviously Terran had that ridiculous proxy barracks rush that was an instant-win, or the super fast reapers and more recently very early pressure with mass marauders and ghosts in close positions.
And Terran will continue to be powerful early game due to the Mule advantage.
However on distant positions or in a long game I just don't believe Terran is even with Protoss.
Collsosus/immortal/Zealot/Sentry/stalker create this ball of destruction that an even supply Terran army just has no absoultely no chance against, it's not even close. The sentries tear the Terran army in half, the collosus/templar aoe the crap out of everything and the Zealots clean up. Um... have you ever tried using banshees, vikings, ghosts+EMP & M+M+M? Just a thought, and I can't believe I'm helping terran players here, but I want this game to be balanced as much as the next guy - please try that out late game and you'll figure out how powerful your air is.
Of course I know about Banshees and Vikings, they are pretty standard against Protoss.
I think it just highlights the lack of options the Terran has that banshees are even considered against an opponent that has observers and the ability to instantly warp stalkers in anywhere. Don't forget the stalker buff increased their effectiveness against Banshees too.
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EPT
